NHQ Uniform Committee

[Hawk200]

If you want to move toward a more uniform appearance, then do the right thing and authorize the wear of military ribbons and badges awarded to members on ALL uniforms (within the scope of 39-1).

Problem with that is that the miltary overall doesn't allow their badges on other than military uniforms. The Corporates may be uniform, but they're not military uniform. From what I've heard, it's something in the US Code. Don't ask me where, I never found the reference. We can't permit something that the military doesn't allow.

OK, here are the 2 proposed submissions for the ABU.

One: ABU with full color (Navy blue to be submitted)
Two: ABU with white on sage green background (OD being used here but sage matches the dark green of the ABU well.)

I could go for the navy blue, and I think the sage might look OK. One suggestion: See if you can find tapes that match the grey background of ABU badges and rank insignia. It might be hard to read with white, but maybe we could get the AF to allow subdued lettering if the tapes are a solid  color instead of their Tiger Stripe (I know it's a long shot, but let them tell us no). We may get lucky, and someone could wear AF badges with CAP ones, and they wouldn't look out of place.

[Hawk200]

Another thing to add, (or maybe return to the manual), is the black turtleneck with BDU's and flightsuit. They're currently authorized for the Air Force according to their current -2903.

Was looking at the thread on "Chilly in BDU's", and went looking for the turtleneck in 39-1. It wasn't there. I know it used to be, and I didn't realize it had been taken out. Been wearing one the last couple of weeks that got cold.

Guess I need to reread the 39-1 again.

[Falshrmjgr]

If you want to move toward a more uniform appearance, then do the right thing and authorize the wear of military ribbons and badges awarded to members on ALL uniforms (within the scope of 39-1).

Problem with that is that the military overall doesn't allow their badges on other than military uniforms. The Corporates may be uniform, but they're not military uniform. From what I've heard, it's something in the US Code. Don't ask me where, I never found the reference. We can't permit something that the military doesn't allow.

The restrictions are placed by the "Current" service, not the former service.  It is my understanding that the US Code's restriction is only on the wear of awards and decorations that one has not earned.

Other restrictions are the normal, don't wear your uniform while making political speeches, etc.

Otherwise, it is no different than wearing your stuff on your VFW cap.

My opinion, is that the services tend to limit the wear of badges from other services for a few reasons:

The Army tends to limit the wear of badges from sister services that it considers "Soft Skill Badges," but has gotten more liberal in the last few years.

The Air Force tends to limit badges that are "Gaudy, detract from their aviation heritage, or are not similar to existing Air Force Awards"  e.g SEAL Badges, Ranger/SF Tabs, etc...

The Marine Corps just tends to restrict badges.  Period.  (Exceptions: Aviator Wings, Jump Wings, Scuba Badges....), or prefer to convert them to "equivalent" awards: e.g. CIB becomes a Combat Action Ribbon.  (Conversely, a CAR does not become a CIB because of different criteria.)

The Navy tends to, well  haven't looked at it in while.  I know they don't allow tabs.

Anyhow, it would seem to me that CAP controls it's Uniform Regulation, and that the Air Force has "discouraged" CAP from allowing the wear of awards for the Fat & Fuzzy.  I suppose there was a rationale that it prevented the casual observing from thinking that those awards had been made by CAP, but I find that argument specious at best.

Anyone else have insight in this?  Seems the (I hate to go here) CG Aux doesn't have such a hangup.  Their regulations seem to be "If you've earned it, wear it!"

[LtCol White]

So, is there a plan to have two colors of tapes/insignia backgrounds - green for the abu, navy for the bbdu?

As for those who say get rid of the bbdu, why? The AF is going to the ABU, so why should I have to buy a new uniform that that AF is abandoning?

I will recommend adopting the old USN beard standard for the corporate service uniforms.

Yes, with the submission, we will recommend going to all dark blue insignia for the Blue BDU with a phase in date. Its a very minor change so there is no real need to provide illustration for the change.

[ddelaney103]

So, is there a plan to have two colors of tapes/insignia backgrounds - green for the abu, navy for the bbdu?

As for those who say get rid of the bbdu, why? The AF is going to the ABU, so why should I have to buy a new uniform that that AF is abandoning?

I will recommend adopting the old USN beard standard for the corporate service uniforms.

Yes, with the submission, we will recommend going to all dark blue insignia for the Blue BDU with a phase in date. Its a very minor change so there is no real need to provide illustration for the change.

I would suggest making the BDU/ABU nametapes and grade insignia the same as the dark blue on the BBDU's.  This way there's a connection between the two field uniforms.

[Hawk200]

I would suggest making the BDU/ABU nametapes and grade insignia the same as the dark blue on the BBDU's.  This way there's a connection between the two field uniforms.

Looking at it simply, this seems to be the most logical. Instead of replying "Which uniform will you be wearing?" you just tell someone "The navy blue tapes for either field uniform."

[floridacyclist]

Wonder how hard it would be to phase in Olive Drab BDUs to replace the Navy Blue ones? It would just look so much more uniform when you're in with a group of camo-wearing folks and you could use the same webgear without it looking really wierd.

[Sarge]

Lt Col White,
I suggest we try to cut down on uniforms as well. One corporate equivalent for each USAF uniform. Nice and simple. Ditch the shabby "CAP utility uniform" flight suit lookin' thing. The biggest change I would make is to get some new photo models for the 39-1....(see BBDU and utility uniform guy and the raincoat guy!)
The more we can find common items at AAFES for our uniforms, the better. I for one am active duty and enjoy as much commonality as possible between my CAP garb and my USAF wear. I agree with the cloth rank on flight suits and don't see the big deal with putting regular USAF subdued rank on. It has nothing to do with "going tactical" but does have everything to do with availability.
Agree with trying for blue epaulet slides w/ CAP embroidered.
I also think that the grays should go in favor of the white aviator with the blue pants.
Allow the ABU now, and make BDUs phase out 2013 (2 years after USAF in 2011)
I am glad we are addressing this now and attempting to "clean the closet out"
I like the idea of grey BDU pants being OK with blue polo, though I do not prefer the polo in the first place.
Why does the polo have the "old" corporate seal on it when all seems to be going to the "command patch"?....just a question
Let members wear badges they earned regardless of branch. They are accomplishments!
I like the blue on the ABU in case you're keeping track! Thanks for your work on this topic. Maybe after the smoke clears, we can all breathe a sigh of relief and stay with the same duds for a few years. This will give us more time to address the real "program" issues.

C/WO (Ret)
SMSgt, USAF
Lt Col, CAP
Anonymous Squadron Commander
A proud CAPer since '76!

[Falshrmjgr]

Wonder how hard it would be to phase in Olive Drab BDUs to replace the Navy Blue ones? It would just look so much more uniform when you're in with a group of camo-wearing folks and you could use the same webgear without it looking really wierd.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Amen!   OD + ABU is much better than ABU + BBDU.  (Geez I miss my Old OG-107's!!!!)

Not to mention the Sage or Desert Boots wouldn't look totally stupid with the OD BDU's.

However, if we went with the OD BDU, Navy Lettering on tape would be best.  White would get washed out IMO.  Then the only difference between the ABU & ODBDU would be the cloth color itself.

[arajca]

Wonder how hard it would be to phase in Olive Drab BDUs to replace the Navy Blue ones? It would just look so much more uniform when you're in with a group of camo-wearing folks and you could use the same webgear without it looking really wierd.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Amen!   OD + ABU is much better than ABU + BBDU.  (Geez I miss my Old OG-107's!!!!)

Not to mention the Sage or Desert Boots wouldn't look totally stupid with the OD BDU's.   

So explain to me, in words of one syllable or less, why I (and many others) should have spend a couple hundred dollars to replace perfectly good blue work uniforms for new green uniforms.

[LtCol White]

Wonder how hard it would be to phase in Olive Drab BDUs to replace the Navy Blue ones? It would just look so much more uniform when you're in with a group of camo-wearing folks and you could use the same webgear without it looking really wierd.

Not really a change that keeps the "cost to the member" in mind as directed by Gen Courter.

[davedove]

Wonder how hard it would be to phase in Olive Drab BDUs to replace the Navy Blue ones? It would just look so much more uniform when you're in with a group of camo-wearing folks and you could use the same webgear without it looking really wierd.

Not really a change that keeps the "cost to the member" in mind as directed by Gen Courter.

IF you were to change the corporate field uniform, once the switch to ABU occurs, it would make the most sense to make BDU's the new corporate field uniform.  There would admittedly be many who currently have the blue field uniform who would have to buy a new set.  However, many already have the BDU's and would not have to get a new uniform, unless they really wanted the ABU.  An appropriate phase out could be instituted for the blue field uniform to ease the financial burden on the members.  Note that I use the blue field uniform, so I would be one of those who would have to buy a new one in this case.

[floridacyclist]

Same here. Of course, you could also always specify that existing BBDUs could be worn until the end of their useful service life. Regular BDUs would be good...am sure they will be available surplus for years to come, something that cannot be said for the BBDUs.

[0]

Well first off Col. White do we have any official word that we will even get the ABU? Let's not forget when the Air Force made the switch from OD to BDU it took years till that trickled down to CAP.  So while starting to looking into ABU right now is it really a high priority than stream lining elsewhere in the 39-1 and making this easier for all of us.

[DogCollar]

It's about Cost to the Member!!!!!!!!!!!!  That has got to be priority one!!!

Allow present uniforms to be worn until they are beyond usefulness.

Don't make changes unless it is for safety or mission enhancement reasons.

If changing the pants that go with the polo shirt, make it khaki, as most of us already own a pair of khaki slacks.

[MIKE]

I think it's a mistake to think that woodland camo BDUs will be available in sufficient quantity to justify retaining them as a CAP distinctive uniform for a length of time after the ABU is phased in.

I also think it's kind of stupid to have "new distinctive tapes/insignia" for the ABU... Unless you are saying I can pick up flag blue on ABU tapes and flag blue on gray insignia when I pick the uniform up at AAFES MCSS.  I think the white on sage/OD is a waste.  The most cost effective being using white on ultramarine or a wear out phase out to white on navy for the ABU and Field Uniform.

[LtCol White]

Well first off Col. White do we have any official word that we will even get the ABU? Let's not forget when the Air Force made the switch from OD to BDU it took years till that trickled down to CAP.  So while starting to looking into ABU right now is it really a high priority than stream lining elsewhere in the 39-1 and making this easier for all of us.

Yes, USAF has already said that we would make the switch. Phase in date and insignia changes are all that are in question. We intend to use the 2011 date for mandatory wear to remain consistant with USAF.

[alamrcn]

OH, PLEASE! Changing a $2.00 uniform item over a phase-in time frame of probably several years IS NOT going to break ANYONE'S budget! Most everyone reading this message just stole $2.00 in productivity from their employer. If you or a member you know seriously can't afford new cloth tapes with their new uniform, write me a well thought-out "Dear Oprah" letter with the sob story and I'll buy them myself.

I concur with Proposal #2. Why would anyone take the old tapes off their BDUs and put them on their new ABUs? They probably already look like he|| from age, and I'm guessing might not be the exact width for the new pocket anyway. You're going to (SHOULD) buy new ones anyway!

Sage tapes for the sage-ish ABU uniform, and navy tapes for the navy BBDU uniform is not rocket science. This recommendation is solid on all counts, and it is not "a change for the sake of change." It would be met with great approval amoung the membership and look great in the public eye. If you were Joe Civilian and happened to see our two duty uniforms side-by-side... would you more likely comment:

a. I don't know why they chose ultra-marine blue cloth tapes for either uniform, but at least they are the same on both uniforms, or...

b. Hey, those are two very sharp and distinct uniforms!

If the committee is ever hung on any decision, let it come down to two final choices like the ones shown, and then let the membership vote? We've done it before at least once with a ballot included within the CAP-News.

-Ace

added...

We intend to use the 2011 date for mandatory wear to remain consistant with USAF.

Very good idea!

[davedove]

I think it's a mistake to think that woodland camo BDUs will be available in sufficient quantity to justify retaining them as a CAP distinctive uniform for a length of time after the ABU is phased in.

While we would no longer be able to get the cheaper BDU's from the military, I have no doubt that they will still be readily available in the marketplace.  One can readily buy the BDU style uniform in any number of patterns or colors now, and I don't think that will change.  Granted, they will cost a little more.

[ddelaney103]

Sage tapes for the sage-ish ABU uniform, and navy tapes for the navy BBDU uniform is not rocket science. This recommendation is solid on all counts, and it is not "a change for the sake of change." It would be met with great approval amoung the membership and look great in the public eye. If you were Joe Civilian and happened to see our two duty uniforms side-by-side... would you more likely comment:

a. I don't know why they chose ultra-marine blue cloth tapes for either uniform, but at least they are the same on both uniforms, or...

b. Hey, those are two very sharp and distinct uniforms!

But we don't want distinctive uniforms!  We want uniforms that your average person will see as being part of the same org.

We don't want to drive a bigger wedge b/w the Fit and the Fat/Fuzzy, which is what you get if you make different tapes for each uniform.  Say it with me, "One Team, One Fight, One Suit (or as close as we can)."

Also, people are going to show up with blue on the ABU or sage on the BBDU.  Just have one color: dark blue.  It's a lot easier to say "take this dark blue grade - it goes on any of the field uniforms (and hopefully flight uniforms)" than say, "well, this goes on this one but not that one."