NHQ Uniform Committee

[NEBoom]

1) Return the Rank Insignia to the flight cap.  we can keep the distinctive CAP thing there too if you like.  (like how it was done for the initial TPU push). 

I'll vote no on this one.  I though it looked terrible when I saw it for the first time.  Part of the stated goal here (which I wholeheartedly support) is to make insignia and insignia placement consistent between the AF and Corporate uniforms.  We most likely won't be able to do this on the AF uniform, so we should not do it on the Corporate either.  Aside from this, you're requiring members to purchase an additional set of metal rank insignia so they have one for the cap.  Not cost saving to the member.

2) Return to all blue rank slides for all uniforms.  Lets go back pre-1990 and borrow this one.  They are very distinctive enough to tell between a person in CAP and an actual AF Officer.  For one, it is a slide on the jacket, instead of just metal rank, 2 it has CAP embroidered on it.

Probably not going to happen, AF would have to buy off on it.  Also adds expense.  Grey is already out there, and really doesn't look that bad.  Don't require members to spend more money to change color yet again.

4) eliminate the Grey pants, and replace it with AF shade trousers/skirts.  THEN invent a new color polo shirt so we will not have blue on blue! 

Again changing an established uniform for one of a different color.  Not needed or cost effective.

6) <snip>  When the ABU rolls our way, follow AF guidance on their end and don't allow patches at all. 

I agree with this.  Let's not let the utility uniform get out of hand again.

7) <snip> When ABU comes, AF says "no organizational hats except for Redhorse".  CAP should say "No organizational colored hats except for special activities".

I'd even go so far as to say including special activities. <dons fire suit>

13) standardized PT uniform. <snip>

No real need for this, and not cost effective to require it.

14) Make the service cap mandatory for those officers Major and above.

NO!  Not cost effective.

20) set a phase out date for Jungle boots (2 years sounds good)

Why?  If a member doesn't want to wear Jungle boots, they don't have to as it stands.  But they are a lower cost alternative for some.

22) Get rid of the cadet officer shoulder boards. 

Agree.

23)  Get rid of the current cadet officer rank insignia to be replaced by the smooth and shinny insignia the ROTC's use.  Looks like the current CAP cadet insignia but does not have any scores across the surface and are skinnier.  Vanguard produces them, not a problem there.

Which is cheaper?  Go with the cheaper of the two.  If a change is made, set a LONG phase-out date for the current rank.  There are a lot of units out there with large supplies of this insignia and it would be a big cost to them to have to toss it all.

30) Get rid of the plastic encased rank insignia on the flight suit.  lets get sewn on insignia instead.  current colors are just fine. 

Agree

31) On the AF style lightweight jacket, and all weather coat and raincoat and overcoat,  eliminate the grey rank slides for pin on metal rank and pin on CAP cutouts like what we have on the Army windbreaker.

Again, what is the cost?  Which way is cheaper?  Will we maintain sufficient distinctiveness from the AF uniform?

In closing, I want to emphasize my support for the idea that insignia and insignia placement should be standardized as much as possible between the AF and Corporate uniforms (dress, utility, and flight).  At present members gathered together in our various uniform combinations at times don't even look like they belong to the same organization.  Further, there is so much confusion out there right now as to which insignia (especially nameplates) goes on which uniform combination.  Coming up with a standardized (or nearly standardized) set of insignia for each uniform that works no matter what combo you're wearing would help with cost, compliance with 39-1, and our overall appearance.

I'm eagerly awaiting the preliminary ideas coming out of this committee, and I want to thank all that are contributing for their efforts!!

[jimmydeanno]

1) Return the Rank Insignia to the flight cap.  we can keep the distinctive CAP thing there too if you like.  (like how it was done for the initial TPU push). 

I'll vote no on this one.  I though it looked terrible when I saw it for the first time. 

I'd be ok with the grade insignia on the flight cap (but not both devices).  I've actually had more AF members confused by our current insignia because it "looks like some kind of Colonel insignia" because of the eagle...

[Hawk200]

getting rid of AF flight suits for the blue flight suit makes no sense unless CAP starts issuing them. right now a good condition nomex AF flight suit can be had for around $30 used, that is many times less expensive then the the $240 price of a blue flight suit that you would have an extremely hard time buying used in order to save money.

  I don't know if a nomex flight suit offers me any protection or not but I think if I was in a fire I would rather be wearing a nomex flight suit that may offer some protection then in a cotten flight suit that will offer no protection.

Along that line, there was a time when seniors that didn't meet weight/grooming standards could wear the sage without rank insignia. I'd like to hear why that changed.

I've purchased five sage flightsuits in the last eight months for $45 or less. Three were new in the bag. We could reduce an expense for our members overall with that kind of option. Not to mention, it would be actual uniformity. Guy in a beard and long hair would look just like a guy that's "milspec" (military weight/grooming standards) on a mission.

Everyone wants the high dollar blue flightsuits. Why? They are expensive. Right now, I could have a couple of changes of flightsuits, and potentially lend one out for the price of a single blue one. Eliminating green and going with blue would be uniform, but at three to five times the expense. Doing that isn't practicality, it's daydreaming.

[Hawk200]

I noticed several things on there that are already covered under the regs. Do we double-write them?

Camelbaks are allowed but only in certain colors, BDUs are already required to be the same patter and type of cloth, and I don't believe the pattern on our field gear is limited either.

Seems like the best thing would be to specify conservative colors. If we have to, makea list. Black, brown, tan, green (OD, or foliage or the military favorites), or grey. Allowing the Hi-Viz orange, or yellow-green ones would be nice for missions. Specifically, disallow colors like hot pink, or the neon colors that are intended as fashion statements rather than practical colors.

Allowing a little conservative latitude would reduce expense. Letting a cadet wear his foliage green CamelBak that he bought because he thought it was a hi-speed Army color would be practical. That's what they're going to buy anyway if they're so inclined. It's impractical to tell someone it's not allowed, and as far as cadets go, we don't want parents up in arms because the $40 their kid just spent isn't authorized, and they'll have to buy something else for the sake of being uniform.

I know, the logic is a little thin, but it is a legitimate concern. The Air Force has determined that they're going to use Army gear with the ABU anyway. No reason that some of our members can't buy it now.

[davedove]

27) ADD to 39-1 that WOMEN and ONLY Women will be allowed to carry an umbrella.  Men using umbrellas in the military is a taboo.   

Men should instead become soaked while standing outdoors for the sake of looking "sauve"?  The AF allows the black umbrella in the left hand by males, I don't see CAP as any different.  Umbrellas serve a real and practical purpose.  To prohibit members from using them because someone thinks that just doesn't look cool and they, instead, should let their outerwear get soaked is silly.  Again, the AF doesn't prohibit it - why would we?

The real reason that Army men are forbidden to carry an umbrella ---  It might frighten the horses!!

[floridacyclist]

I'm not sure what change is being made here...39-1 states:

"Camel Pack" Water Containers - Authorized for use with CAP field uniform or BDU only, in hot weather conditions, with or without built-in backpack. Will be black, brown, or camouflaged.

Or are you just talking about adding colors to the allowed list?

Seems like the best thing would be to specify conservative colors. If we have to, makea list. Black, brown, tan, green (OD, or foliage or the military favorites), or grey. Allowing the Hi-Viz orange, or yellow-green ones would be nice for missions. Specifically, disallow colors like hot pink, or the neon colors that are intended as fashion statements rather than practical colors.

Allowing a little conservative latitude would reduce expense. Letting a cadet wear his foliage green CamelBak that he bought because he thought it was a hi-speed Army color would be practical. That's what they're going to buy anyway if they're so inclined. It's impractical to tell someone it's not allowed, and as far as cadets go, we don't want parents up in arms because the $40 their kid just spent isn't authorized, and they'll have to buy something else for the sake of being uniform.

I know, the logic is a little thin, but it is a legitimate concern. The Air Force has determined that they're going to use Army gear with the ABU anyway. No reason that some of our members can't buy it now.

[NEBoom]

Darker tapes please...I think they've had their run since the old pickle suits.

When changing from the old "pickle suits" to the BDUs it was decided to keep the ultramarine blue tapes as a cost-saving measure (that and the AF wouldn't approve a color change back then, IIRC).  If the patches and tapes were in decent shape, a member could carefully remove them from their old uniform, put them on the BDUs, and they'd be good to go.

So the cost impact of a color change should be carefully considered.  I'd suggest that if a change is made, a LONG phase-out date be set for the current color.  It might work best if it were phased in with the ABU.  If patches and other insignia are kept to a minimum on the ABU (which I support) cost impact might not be so bad.  Going to darker tapes would also look better on the corporate BBDUs (again with a LONG phase-out date for ultramarine), and the rank insignia on darker background would also work on both kinds of flight suits (I support dropping plastic encased insignia in favor of embroderied .  I also read somewhere that Vanguard already uses darker blue tape material for other tapes they make, but the ultramarine color is only used by CAP.  Maybe there will be a cost savings there, or (more likely) we might avoid a cost increase in the future.  But then again, it is Vanguard....

[Hawk200]

I'm not sure what change is being made here...39-1 states:

"Camel Pack" Water Containers - Authorized for use with CAP field uniform or BDU only, in hot weather conditions, with or without built-in backpack. Will be black, brown, or camouflaged.

Or are you just talking about adding colors to the allowed list?

Yeah, basically. I've got an OD one that isn't officially allowed by the manual, and I've seen a number of people with the same color wearing them. Now, I have a black one as well, so it's not really an issue for me, but it could be for some people.

There are a number of people that won't have a problem with the military colors, but I do know of others that will give someone a lot of grief for wearing other than the standard black, brown or camo. There are some that also believe that "camo" is only the woodland camo, and consider the desert colors as unacceptable. Doesn't make sense to me, but I have heard it.

[arajca]

Darker tapes please...I think they've had their run since the old pickle suits.

When changing from the old "pickle suits" to the BDUs it was decided to keep the ultramarine blue tapes as a cost-saving measure (that and the AF wouldn't approve a color change back then, IIRC).  If the patches and tapes were in decent shape, a member could carefully remove them from their old uniform, put them on the BDUs, and they'd be good to go.

So the cost impact of a color change should be carefully considered.  I'd suggest that if a change is made, a LONG phase-out date be set for the current color.  It might work best if it were phased in with the ABU.  If patches and other insignia are kept to a minimum on the ABU (which I support) cost impact might not be so bad.  Going to darker tapes would also look better on the corporate BBDUs (again with a LONG phase-out date for ultramarine), and the rank insignia on darker background would also work on both kinds of flight suits (I support dropping plastic encased insignia in favor of embroderied .  I also read somewhere that Vanguard already uses darker blue tape material for other tapes they make, but the ultramarine color is only used by CAP.  Maybe there will be a cost savings there, or (more likely) we might avoid a cost increase in the future.  But then again, it is Vanguard....

A good phase in period would be to start now and end with the official adoption of the abu. Again, with the caveat that all insignia must match, ie. all with ultramaine blue background or all with dark blue background, no mixing them up.

[arajca]

I could definitely see the argument for hi-viz orange or yellow hydration systems. Consider, they will be worn over the orange vest obstructing visibilty of the back of the vest. Allowing hi-vis colors will help maintain the visibility desired by wearing the vest.

This something that should be put into a "special purpose uniform items" section of CAPM 39-1.

[DogCollar]

Okay...boy, people sure want to make a lot of changes to the uniforms.  But, at the same time, thread after thread on this site has complained about there being too many uniform changes!
After all the changes are made to the uniforms, please leave the option of wearing the golf shirt and slacks combo, or civilian clothing, because I ain't spending anymore money on uniform stuff!!

[Bluelakes 13]

LOL - 10 pages and going strong.  I'll voice my (very unpopular) opinion.

1. Phase-out all USAF-like uniforms for seniors.  We have too many uniforms.
2. Have one utility uniform and one formal uniform for _all_ seniors.  Furry or fat, clean or slim, a uniform is, well, uniform.
3. No more unfunded uniform changes from NHQ.  Enough said.
4. Phase out grade insignia for seniors and go to a job-based system where a new Professional Development system is created to support each job at multiple levels.  Reason for this has been discussed many times elsewhere, most notably, they are meaningless in our organization.

Such stuff as dreams are made off...

[Hawk200]

LOL - 10 pages and going strong.  I'll voice my (very unpopular) opinion.

1. Phase-out all USAF-like uniforms for seniors.  We have too many uniforms.

Col White has already said this won't happen. Thankfully. It's all I have, and I'm still using perfectly serviceable blues from my time in the Air Force. I can accept minor changes, but a complete change of wardrobe is not something I consider practical.

What is the problem with USAF uniforms? So many people want to be associated with the AF, but not wear their uniform. Are there only a few of us that this doesn't make any sense to?

2. Have one utility uniform and one formal uniform for _all_ seniors.  Furry or fat, clean or slim, a uniform is, well, uniform.

How about flight uniforms? It's natural for an organization with a flight mission (one of the missions anyway) to have one. Should be a single flightsuit, and the green flightsuits are used by other than the military as well. Not like everyone wearing one has to fit within military standards.

3. No more unfunded uniform changes from NHQ.  Enough said.

It's doubtful that there will ever be anything funded from National. There isn't money for it.

4. Phase out grade insignia for seniors and go to a job-based system where a new Professional Development system is created to support each job at multiple levels.  Reason for this has been discussed many times elsewhere, most notably, they are meaningless in our organization.

And already discussed is that it probably won't happen. Also has nothing to do with uniforms. And we certainly don't need CG Aux style rank insignia, either.

[arajca]

LOL - 10 pages and going strong.  I'll voice my (very unpopular) opinion.

1. Phase-out all USAF-like uniforms for seniors.  We have too many uniforms.
2. Have one utility uniform and one formal uniform for _all_ seniors.  Furry or fat, clean or slim, a uniform is, well, uniform.

Already stated, this is not happening.

3. No more unfunded uniform changes from NHQ.  Enough said.

Great idea, but wishful thinking.

4. Phase out grade insignia for seniors and go to a job-based system where a new Professional Development system is created to support each job at multiple levels.  Reason for this has been discussed many times elsewhere, most notably, they are meaningless in our organization.

That is well beyond the purpose of the committee and also takes away a huge benefit - the ability to take AFIADL PME courses. Granted, not alot of members do, but it is a huge benefit.

[Hawk200]

That is well beyond the purpose of the committee and also takes away a huge benefit - the ability to take AFIADL PME courses. Granted, not alot of members do, but it is a huge benefit.

I hadn't actually thought about that, but I do plan on taking a few eventually. A useful reason to keep it.

Something else I thought of, probably not a lower cost option, but allow most military badges on our uniforms. That's not to include marksmanship badges, but cover most of the ones that military members would wear above ribbons.

Many of our members come from other branches of service and would like to wear the badges they've earned. And they usually already have them, wouldn't be anything new. It may look strange, but should we get a guy that was a former Navy SEAL, there's no reason he shouldn't be allowed to wear the badge. Same for our guys that have earned combat badges as well. Instead of authorizing only a few, allow them all.

[SAR-EMT1]

Here in ILWG, my Group Commander is a former Combat SEAL and wears his badge proudly.

[cnitas]

Have you politely asked himn to remove the badge, as it is a violation of uniform regulation?   

[alamrcn]

At this point, I'm just reading Lt Col White's posts and responses here.

There's just TOO MUCH babble now -- commenting about someone's comments in regards to someone's reply about something that wasn't really prudent or productive to this thread's intention to begin with.

If you have a recommendation that can help the 39-1 folks, please do share.

If you see something you want to argue about or expound upon further, PLEASE have the courtesy to save those of us who DON'T live on this board some reading time, and take it to another thread. I think you'll find it more productive to discuss the finer points of each individual topic.

Thanks for the understanding, and sorry to have even had to post this particular off-topic message here.

-Ace

[jb512]

I was just thinking the same thing yesterday.  It looks like the regulars with sensible recommendations have made them and the thread is kinda petering off...  Looks like we've about got this thing wrapped up.   

[jeders]

So when can we expect to see some summaries that the board will consider or some example pics?