NHQ Uniform Committee

[SAR-EMT1]

My two cents:

Tapes on the BDU/ ACU: darker in color then present.
Ideal: Subdued USAF standard

At present the 39-1 states that the EMT badge may be worn by Basics, Intermediates and Paramedics.
There are however 3 badges: basic, Senior, Master (not mentioned in 39-1)
The badges are worn as one might expect: basic: basics, Seniors: Intermediates, Master: Paramedics

If you wish to standardize the items on the AF Blues and TPU, might I recommend  the Blue rank slides that had 'CAP' in silver lettering on the top? Hard rank was attached to some, others had embroidered.
Also use the grey 3-liner on the TPU shirt.

Thank you for your efforts in this great task.

[DrJbdm]

Lets just eliminate the grey 3 liner and just all go to the blue 3 liner. We all used to wear it for many many years. it may not match the ugly grey slides on the AF style uniform but thats ok, it gets us ALL in the same name tag.

We should also follow suit with what the AF is doing and put the AF metalic nametag on the sweater. (requires AF approval) (I'm pretty sure that change is coming down the road soon enough)

[RogueLeader]

For a polo combo, use the Blue pants and adjust polo shirt color to match.

Did I miss something?  Why is everyone suggesting matching shirt and pants for the golf shirt uniform?  Is it to dissuade people from wearing it?

No. It's to help reduce the NATO looking conferences of the Polo club.  With three versions of the Polo and God knows how many shades of "medium" grey slacks there are*; It can look worse than any of the other uniform combo's available.  For example there are three Polos to choose from and say 15 shades of grey- there are now 45 different uniforms authorized by 39-1.  Now, if we cut to two Polos, and specify a shade of grey- or go to Dickies as suggested by MSgt. Ross, now there are only 2.  Thats a cut of over 22 times the number of authorized Polo uniforms. 


* the number 15 was pulled up, and I was also ignoring the exponential factors of people wearing the Polo Uniform out of uniform- ie: jeans, etc.

[JohnKachenmeister]

For a polo combo, use the Blue pants and adjust polo shirt color to match.

Did I miss something?  Why is everyone suggesting matching shirt and pants for the golf shirt uniform?  Is it to dissuade people from wearing it?

No. It's to help reduce the NATO looking conferences of the Polo club.  With three versions of the Polo and God knows how many shades of "medium" grey slacks there are*; It can look worse than any of the other uniform combo's available.  For example there are three Polos to choose from and say 15 shades of grey- there are now 45 different uniforms authorized by 39-1.  Now, if we cut to two Polos, and specify a shade of grey- or go to Dickies as suggested by MSgt. Ross, now there are only 2.  Thats a cut of over 22 times the number of authorized Polo uniforms. 


* the number 15 was pulled up, and I was also ignoring the exponential factors of people wearing the Polo Uniform out of uniform- ie: jeans, etc.

Khaki pants would look better than AF blue, but one of the females on the net said that women's khaki pants are hard to find.  I wouldn't know.  I make one trip to a "Mall" every year to do my Christmas shopping.  Otherwise I avoid those places.

[star1151]

No. It's to help reduce the NATO looking conferences of the Polo club.  With three versions of the Polo and God knows how many shades of "medium" grey slacks there are*; It can look worse than any of the other uniform combo's available.  For example there are three Polos to choose from and say 15 shades of grey- there are now 45 different uniforms authorized by 39-1.  Now, if we cut to two Polos, and specify a shade of grey- or go to Dickies as suggested by MSgt. Ross, now there are only 2.  Thats a cut of over 22 times the number of authorized Polo uniforms. 

Khaki pants would look better than AF blue, but one of the females on the net said that women's khaki pants are hard to find.  I wouldn't know.  I make one trip to a "Mall" every year to do my Christmas shopping.  Otherwise I avoid those places.

That was me, and it's true, at least during 10 of 12 months of the year.  If I could buy them at Vanguard, though, I'd be fine with that, 10 week lead time and all.  Regarding the Dickies, I'll buy men's pants and have them altered to fit me, but the idea doesn't make me happy...the lead time is just too long, and having clothes altered is expensive.

I do agree with one version of the polo shirt, though.

[LtCol White]

Back on topic please

[ZigZag911]

One thing that some of the comments I have read concerning adoption of corporate (CAP distinctive) uniforms only for Seniors is that they fail to consider the wide availability of surplus/used Air Force uniforms from a considerable number of sources (DRMO, eBay, surplus stores, thrift shops, retired/separating AF service members, etc.). This really keeps the cost down for CAP Cadets and Senior Members.

This is the most reasonable argument I've heard for keeping USAF uniform for seniors.

I do understand & respect our historical heritage....in fact, I am one of those odd people that wants CAP as full time USAF Auxiliary again!

I, too, am pleased to see Lt Col White's committee is working toward some sort of equitable harmonization of what we already have...perhaps, like Coast Guard Aux still does, we can once again look a lot like our parent service, while retaining sufficient distinctive elements to tell Active from auxiliary at a glance.

I still need someone to explain to me why camouflage-style BDUs or ABUs make sense for an organization whose specialty is air/ground coordinated SAR.

As for my Rambo comment of yesterday, that certainly was not directed at any of those who are serving or have served in the military.

As for those who want to get rid of the middle aged/elderly/medically limited/overweight -- I suggest you start counting heads -- CAP has made accommodations because it is a volunteer organization and needs us far less than perfect people to get the mission accomplished!

Finally, I would make this observation, applied to myself as much as anyone else: we need to compare the amount of time, attention and energy we spend on uniform issues, as opposed to discussing & promoting CAP's Core Values. Perhaps there is a lesson for us all to learn about priorities.

What does bother me

[Lancer]

So I'm looking through the PDF version of the Nov-Dec 07 this afternoon and happen across a full page ad for Airborne Leathers (see attachment) selling the A-2 Black leather jacket for a very good price. I've come across the website for this company before but hesitated on ordering in hopes I'd hear from someone else who might have ordered from them.

Has anyone bought this jacket from them?

I guess I'm just surprised that here's a uniform item not being sold by Vanguard and obviously being endorsed by corporate. My question is; Is this the start of our being able to buy uniform items from other sources?

[LtCol White]

So I'm looking through the PDF version of the Nov-Dec 07 this afternoon and happen across a full page ad for Airborne Leathers (see attachment) selling the A-2 Black leather jacket for a very good price. I've come across the website for this company before but hesitated on ordering in hopes I'd hear from someone else who might have ordered from them.

Has anyone bought this jacket from them?

I guess I'm just surprised that here's a uniform item not being sold by Vanguard and obviously being endorsed by corporate. My question is; Is this the start of our being able to buy uniform items from other sources?

This does not belong on this thread. PLEASE stay on track here. there are other threads to discuss this.

[Lancer]

So I'm looking through the PDF version of the Nov-Dec 07 this afternoon and happen across a full page ad for Airborne Leathers (see attachment) selling the A-2 Black leather jacket for a very good price. I've come across the website for this company before but hesitated on ordering in hopes I'd hear from someone else who might have ordered from them.

Has anyone bought this jacket from them?

I guess I'm just surprised that here's a uniform item not being sold by Vanguard and obviously being endorsed by corporate. My question is; Is this the start of our being able to buy uniform items from other sources?

This does not belong on this thread. PLEASE stay on track here. there are other threads to discuss this.

Really? It's a question for the 'uniform committee' regarding the future purchases of uniform items, seems pretty appropriate to me, no?

[arajca]

So I'm looking through the PDF version of the Nov-Dec 07 this afternoon and happen across a full page ad for Airborne Leathers (see attachment) selling the A-2 Black leather jacket for a very good price. I've come across the website for this company before but hesitated on ordering in hopes I'd hear from someone else who might have ordered from them.

Has anyone bought this jacket from them?

I guess I'm just surprised that here's a uniform item not being sold by Vanguard and obviously being endorsed by corporate. My question is; Is this the start of our being able to buy uniform items from other sources?

This does not belong on this thread. PLEASE stay on track here. there are other threads to discuss this.

Really? It's a question for the 'uniform committee' regarding the future purchases of uniform items, seems pretty appropriate to me, no?

Actually, it's a question for the business office, not the uniform committee. The uniform committee make recommendation on the uniforms - types, colors, blingage, etc. It does not make recommendations on the sourcing of the uniforms.

[LtCol White]

So I'm looking through the PDF version of the Nov-Dec 07 this afternoon and happen across a full page ad for Airborne Leathers (see attachment) selling the A-2 Black leather jacket for a very good price. I've come across the website for this company before but hesitated on ordering in hopes I'd hear from someone else who might have ordered from them.

Has anyone bought this jacket from them?

I guess I'm just surprised that here's a uniform item not being sold by Vanguard and obviously being endorsed by corporate. My question is; Is this the start of our being able to buy uniform items from other sources?

This does not belong on this thread. PLEASE stay on track here. there are other threads to discuss this.

Really? It's a question for the 'uniform committee' regarding the future purchases of uniform items, seems pretty appropriate to me, no?

Reread the purpose of this thread when I posted it please.

[jb512]

One thing that some of the comments I have read concerning adoption of corporate (CAP distinctive) uniforms only for Seniors is that they fail to consider the wide availability of surplus/used Air Force uniforms from a considerable number of sources (DRMO, eBay, surplus stores, thrift shops, retired/separating AF service members, etc.). This really keeps the cost down for CAP Cadets and Senior Members.

I still need someone to explain to me why camouflage-style BDUs or ABUs make sense for an organization whose specialty is air/ground coordinated SAR.

Topic for another thread, so I'll keep it short...

1.  As you said, we are the auxiliary of the AF.  We wear their uniforms whether they be dress, utility, flight, or otherwise.

2.  They are readily available in surplus from numerous sources and as so, not too expensive to aquire.

3.  We spend a relatively small amount of time engaged in air/ground coordinated SAR compared to other duties requiring a utility uniform.

4.  The military has coordinated air/ground missions in the BDU/ABU/ACU for years and so have we.

Sorry, Col White for the off topic response as well.

[mikeylikey]

A few suggestions......maybe this will make it to page 10 tonight!

1) Return the Rank Insignia to the flight cap.  we can keep the distinctive CAP thing there too if you like.  (like how it was done for the initial TPU push). 

2) Return to all blue rank slides for all uniforms.  Lets go back pre-1990 and borrow this one.  They are very distinctive enough to tell between a person in CAP and an actual AF Officer.  For one, it is a slide on the jacket, instead of just metal rank, 2 it has CAP embroidered on it.

3) Set a phase out date for the old style service dress uniform that Cadets are currently wearing.  At some point they will become too "dated".  5 years should be enough time to find cheaper new jackets for the cadets.

4) eliminate the Grey pants, and replace it with AF shade trousers/skirts.  THEN invent a new color polo shirt so we will not have blue on blue! 

5) get rid of everything Gray.  Grey sleeve braid, grey visor strap, grey nameplates, grey rank slides etc.

6) eliminate the wearing of Wing Patches on the BDU.  When the ABU rolls our way, follow AF guidance on their end and don't allow patches at all. 

7) Set one standard type of headgear to be won by all members throughout the country.  Other than at certain schools the required headear should be BDU cover (formerly patrol cap).  When ABU comes, AF says "no organizational hats except for Redhorse".  CAP should say "No organizational colored hats except for special activities".

8) Since we are already using the Army windbreaker for the new Corp Uniform, lets get the black all weather long coat approved for wear also.  Whatever we do, don't add the rank slides to the outside of these jackets.  It looks terrible.  Rank plus a CAP CUTOUT suffices!!!

9) Eliminate the clutter on the current BDU's.  Make the member choose which specail activity patch to wear and place it in the position that the Wing patch once took up.  Also, 2 badges at the most please!

10) on the mess dress, lets get the real AF shoulder boards.  We can still be identified as CAP by that large disk worn on the lower right side of the jacket right?

11) Make a simple statement in 39-1 that reads "after 31 October of every year BDU sleeves will need to be kept down.  You may resume rolling you sleeves after 1 April".

12) No clip on ties!

13) standardized PT uniform.  Lets see if AF will allow us to borrow theirs.  At least the shorts and t-shirt.  They are cool enough.  I would say then borrow the Army PT jogging pants (as they are all black) and a simple CAP sweatshirt for those cold nights outside.

14) Make the service cap mandatory for those officers Major and above.

15) change the boots out soon for the field uniforms.  Allow tan, or new ABU sage green.

16) allow field equipment in the ACU or ABU pattern to be used.

17) Allow camelbacks as long as they are commercial and are all black or brown.

18) discontinue the use of brown undershirt for the BDU's.  Move either into all BLACK shirts, or also allow sand color (if you allow sand color you will be preparing for the ABU arrival, got to think ahead)

19) No high tech boots (i.e. ripple soles, tiger soles, zipper down the side etc.)

20) set a phase out date for Jungle boots (2 years sounds good)

21) Mandate that those wearing BDU's MUST wear the same pattern pants, and blouse, both must either be winter weight or summer weight,  NO mixing and matching.

22) Get rid of the cadet officer shoulder boards.  let them pin their full size rank on the jackets. 

23)  Get rid of the current cadet officer rank insignia to be replaced by the smooth and shinny insignia the ROTC's use.  Looks like the current CAP cadet insignia but does not have any scores across the surface and are skinnier.  Vanguard produces them, not a problem there.

24) allow the army windbreaker to be worn with the flight suit, and the AF style short sleeve shirt and pants. 

25) Get rid of the CAP regimental tie.  Replace it with the AF necktie (full size, NOT clip-on!).

26) Mandate policy for the carrying of telecommunication devices with the uniform.  Such as , one pager, on cell phone.....that's it!

27) ADD to 39-1 that WOMEN and ONLY Women will be allowed to carry an umbrella.  Men using umbrellas in the military is a taboo.   

28) Add a bowtie to the Cadet semi Formal uniform in place of a necktie.

29) remove the "CAP" cutout on the BDU pattern field jacket.  The jacket already has a HUGE "CIVIL AIR PATROL" branch tape.  Why do we need another "CAP" on our shoulders??

30) Get rid of the plastic encased rank insignia on the flight suit.  lets get sewn on insignia instead.  current colors are just fine. 

31) On the AF style lightweight jacket, and all weather coat and raincoat and overcoat,  eliminate the grey rank slides for pin on metal rank and pin on CAP cutouts like what we have on the Army windbreaker.

32) ELIMINATE the Corporate Blazer!

Thats it for now....getting kinda late...... :)

Disabled smileys - MIKE

[Becks]

Darker tapes please...I think they've had their run since the old pickle suits.
Oh...and yes, change all the grey to blue.

[BillB]

Mikey
What is your justification for all those changes?  Why so many "army" style uniform items?
On number 6, it will be a long period before CAP gets the ABU, so lets not worry about it
# 10, this will never get past the USAF
#11, you're forgetting in the southern teir of states in Oct and even November the temprature can be in the 90s and even in March. Let each Wing select a date.
#12 the clip on tie is worn in the real military, the corporate world, so what is the reason for no clip on ties?
#13. Lets not copy the USAF or Army, let CAP set a standard for color and style of a CAP PT uniform
#14 Big expense involved. No justification
#15 another big expense for cadets
#18 sand colorred T-shirts? What justification?  Stick to black as the only authorized t-shirt
#19 hi-tech boots, again no justification or need
#20, why? the cheapest boots for cadets is the jungle boots and since the BDUs will be around for a long time  this is not needed
#23 The CAP cadet rank insignia has been used since the 1940's why change to Army style
In other words, what is your justification and reasoning for the changes you suggest. Some add uniform costs to seniors and mainly cadets

[davedove]

11) Make a simple statement in 39-1 that reads "after 31 October of every year BDU sleeves will need to be kept down.  You may resume rolling you sleeves after 1 April".

This statement sounds like something the military would put out.  I know, because I've been around the Army for over 21 years now.  "It is now November, therefore it is officially cold and you must wear your uniform in the cold weather configuration.  Yes, I know we are in Florida and it is 90 degrees out, but that's what the regulations say."

That's the type of thing that has to be delegated to the local commander (as the military does).  The local commander should determine if it is a "sleeves up" day or not.

[DogCollar]

I, for one, have already spent all the money for uniforms that I intend to pay for the next several years!!!!  That being said, any and all changes to CAP uniforms should be based on:

1.  Lowering cost for members
2.  Enhancing CAP core missions
3.  Safety

[floridacyclist]

I noticed several things on there that are already covered under the regs. Do we double-write them?

Camelbaks are allowed but only in certain colors, BDUs are already required to be the same patter and type of cloth, and I don't believe the pattern on our field gear is limited either.

[Pylon]

3) Set a phase out date for the old style service dress uniform that Cadets are currently wearing.  At some point they will become too "dated".  5 years should be enough time to find cheaper new jackets for the cadets.

I agree that it looks quite dated.  Hopefully more surplus of the current "McPeak/Blazer" service dress jacket will become available in large quantities when the heritage coat phases in.  Perhaps the phase out date for the old-old service dress could be concurrent with the phase-in of the heritage coat for the USAF.  This way the cadets are only one version behind at most, and can take advantage of surplus stuff.

11) Make a simple statement in 39-1 that reads "after 31 October of every year BDU sleeves will need to be kept down.  You may resume rolling you sleeves after 1 April".

This discounts members in tropical climates.  One of the problems we've faced in the past with uniform decrees has been that members in one climate or another get forgotten.  Members in harsh winter climates get forgotten with outergarments on uniforms at times, and those in very hot climates can too.  For example, in Puerto Rico Wing, it is on average 74 to 86 degrees in November.  Should they wear their sleeves down?

I think it works best as a commander's call.  Perhaps the wording could indicate that units will wear their sleeves uniformly - up or down - either as conditions dictate when there is no commander's guidance, or as the commander decides for a unit.  The commander already determines the UOD and can set guidance on things like wear of optional patches or certain uniform items - this seems like it would be a natural extension of that commander's discretion and leave it at that.

12) No clip on ties!

If you're an adult and wearing a clip-on, I think the fact that other adults will know you're wearing it ought to be enough deterrent.   

14) Make the service cap mandatory for those officers Major and above.

The Air Force does not, so why would we require something so arbitrary?  The field-grade officer's service cap is expensive, to add to that.  The flight cap is worn by AF officers on a regular basis from 2d Lt all the way to General - why would we want to stick out?  I hate change for the sake of change.

17) Allow camelbacks as long as they are commercial and are all black or brown.

Camelbaks are already authorized with field uniforms with color standards; see CAPM 39-1 for guidance.

21) Mandate that those wearing BDU's MUST wear the same pattern pants, and blouse, both must either be winter weight or summer weight,  NO mixing and matching.

Table 2-3 "Men's and Women's Battle Dress Uniforms", Line 2:  "Material of shirt and trousers must match."

It's already required.  If members aren't complying, then it's an issue of enforcement.

22) Get rid of the cadet officer shoulder boards.  let them pin their full size rank on the jackets. 

Agreed in the interest of cost savings to the cadets and congruity with the way the AF wears the uniform.  The cadet shoulderboards on the service dress jacket not only are expensive, but they are reminiscent of the old AF ceremonial dress blues uniform.

23)  Get rid of the current cadet officer rank insignia to be replaced by the smooth and shinny insignia the ROTC's use.  Looks like the current CAP cadet insignia but does not have any scores across the surface and are skinnier.  Vanguard produces them, not a problem there.

Solution in search of a problem?  No thanks.

25) Get rid of the CAP regimental tie.  Replace it with the AF necktie (full size, NOT clip-on!).

Already phasing it out, I believe.

26) Mandate policy for the carrying of telecommunication devices with the uniform.  Such as , one pager, on cell phone.....that's it!

You may need to take a re-read through CAPM 39-1.  This also is already mandated.  Table 2-5, "Clothing/Accessory Standards", Line 11 "Pagers, Cellular Phone, Two-way Radio": "Clipped to waistband or purse, or carried in left hand. Only one is authorized."

Simply because members might ignore it, doesn't mean it isn't already in the uniform manual.  Just enforce what's already written.

27) ADD to 39-1 that WOMEN and ONLY Women will be allowed to carry an umbrella.  Men using umbrellas in the military is a taboo.   

Men should instead become soaked while standing outdoors for the sake of looking "sauve"?  The AF allows the black umbrella in the left hand by males, I don't see CAP as any different.  Umbrellas serve a real and practical purpose.  To prohibit members from using them because someone thinks that just doesn't look cool and they, instead, should let their outerwear get soaked is silly.  Again, the AF doesn't prohibit it - why would we?

28) Add a bowtie to the Cadet semi Formal uniform in place of a necktie.

The old-style cadet semi-formal uniform utilizes the bow-tie.  The new-style mirrors exactly (guess what?) the Air Force's version of the service dress gone semi-formal:  White shirt, regular tie, no nameplate.  It matches what the AF does, it looks nice, and it's already in place.  Why change for the sake of change?

29) remove the "CAP" cutout on the BDU pattern field jacket.  The jacket already has a HUGE "CIVIL AIR PATROL" branch tape.  Why do we need another "CAP" on our shoulders??

Agreed.  The ultramarine blue insignia and the "Civil Air Patrol" tape are distinctive enough from any distance.  The extra CAP cutout is not needed.