NHQ Uniform Committee

[JohnKachenmeister]

However -- how many of the would-be Rambos (or Steve Canyons) will we lose if they can't dress up like the Big Air Force?!?

As a person who wears a uniform 6 out of 7 days a week, and as an Officer, and a combat veteran with multiple deployments since 2001, I don't think I agree with you or your friends.  CAP has worn a military uniform before the AF existed, and will continue to (most likely after the AF is disbanded).  The military allows CAP to wear a uniform, CAP does not force the military to allow it.  BDU's are no more a combat uniform than t-shirts and shorts.  Seriously, multiple groups in this country wear a variant of the BDU, because of it's practicality, not because they want to be Rambo. 

You are right, that if people like you had their way and got rid of the AF style, we WOULD lose members.  Cadets would disappear first, then many SM's would follow suit.   

I'm not a would-be Rambo or Steve Canyon, more like a "Usta-be." 

I do think we need to respect the tradition of CAP wearing the AF uniform with special insignia to differentiate us from the USAF.  That honor was earned in combat, and has been a tradition for many years. 

I stated that our goal should be to get ALL of the CAP into one uniform, however.

Recognizing that everything Mikey said about weight and fitness is absolutely correct, we are still second-line troops.  Always have been, and always will be.  That has to be taken into account.

Back in the 1960's, weight of officers in CAP was not an issue, we all wore the AF uniform.  If the AF is unwilling to relent on the weight issue, then I think the goal of getting everybody into one uniform should trump other considerations.

The TPU is a supposed to be a sorta-air force uniform, and is a good starting point.

I disagree with River in that if we are re-writing 39-1, we SHOULD write it so it will not have to be changed, tinkered with, and modified every year.  That means looking ahead to what our parent service is doing, and structuring our uniforms based on theirs.

Look ahead, not around.  Minimal changes to existing uniforms, and plan for introduction of new uniforms in the very near future.

[RiverAux]

I disagree with River in that if we are re-writing 39-1, we SHOULD write it so it will not have to be changed, tinkered with, and modified every year.  That means looking ahead to what our parent service is doing, and structuring our uniforms based on theirs.

What SHOULD be and what WILL be are two entirely different things.  We just have to accept the fact that CAP will constantly be making uniform changes.  Just a quick look at this thread alone shows that just about every CAP member has some pet peeves or wish-list for what they would like the uniform to be and we're probably no different, and possibly worse, in that regard than the people running CAP.  When we were offerred a chance to make suggestions, we all took the opportunity to advise changing something.  It will always be such.

Only a few lone voices said "No changes at all for X years".

[LtCol White]

Our goal is to make the changes, adjustments and tweeks to the uniforms and update 39-1 so that there isn't a need for revisions for a few years. We are also addressing the new USAF service coat now so that in a few years when it comes to us, its already done and ready for wear without further revisions. Same is being done with the ABU. Gen Courter understands the frustration with the myriad of changes and this is why we are doing this now to address issues and give the uniforms a rest so that that organization can stabilize.

[baronet68]

To those that would discontinue the Air Force style uniforms for those of us who may not be the typical senior member and can actually fit into the uniform without strain, in favor of TPUs and Field Uniforms cause it makes you feel better about yourselves... I say Boooooo and begin heckling...

I am one of those atypical members who easily fits into the USAF uniform but I think it's time we become a unified organization among our adult members... instead, we have a battle of fat & fuzzy vs. fit & smooth - as evidenced by this comment:

...those that can't wear the AF style, will most likely punish those that can.

Anyone who feels "punished" by changing/eliminating USAF uniforms needs to rethink why they joined CAP. 

</sidetrack>

[RiverAux]

As might those who would discard almost 70 years of tradition to our parent service and its predecessor. 

[LtCol White]

To dispell any doubt or confusion, the USAF uniforms are NOT and will NOT be proposed to be discarded. Neither will the Corporate Service uniform. The goal is to closer align the 2 in insignia and have one for one of USAF and Corporate uniforms. Clarify the guidelines for each, eliminate confusion and create clarity, and clean up the appearance of the uniform closet.

[jayleswo]

Lt Col White. I am very glad to hear that the Committee will not consider proposals to discard wear of the AF-style uniforms.

I know that one of the objectives of the current committee is to adopt cost conscious measures. One thing that some of the comments I have read concerning adoption of corporate (CAP distinctive) uniforms only for Seniors is that they fail to consider the wide availability of surplus/used Air Force uniforms from a considerable number of sources (DRMO, eBay, surplus stores, thrift shops, retired/separating AF service members, etc.). This really keeps the cost down for CAP Cadets and Senior Members. For example, I obtained a Service Dress Uniform jacket and pants for $15 off eBay. $40 for jacket, pants and cummerbund for Mess Dress. Quite a deal. I would imagine there are not enough CAP members to make the same availability of used uniforms for low cost.

As to the comments that a NOMEX flight suit is not of value - I happen to know that it is and I will take any protection I can get as an aircrew member.

I do agree that unifying the insignia and wear criteria for both the AF-style and CAP Distinctive uniforms is an excellent goal.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col
Commander PCR-CA-151

[ironputts]

Sir,

I would like to suggest a nametag for the pullover sweater. I have asked for this change through channels and received only negative responses. I wear the pullover sweater about 3 months of the year and hate walking into a room not knowing peoples names, unlike all our other uniforms, due to no nametags. Per the CAP regs, we don't wear nametags on the sweaters. The cost would be minimal buying another name tag and would follow the Air Force regulations which I will post our current CAP reg and the current Air Force reg on the sweater. I have pics of the Air Force uniform with the name tags if you want them. I am former Army and was always used to the nametag on the sweater. No one believes the Air Force wears it on their sweaters. It just makes sense to me!

CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005                      35
NOTES:
1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers NCOs and Airman wear embroidered grade insignia on gray
epaulet sleeve. Cadet officers wear metal grade insignia on blue shoulder mark insignia. Cadet
NCOs and Airmen wear metal chevrons on right side of shirt collar.
2. CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior and cadet members without grade wear highly polished metal
CAP cutouts on both sides of shirt collar. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear cutout on left side of collar.
3. Wing/Region/National Shoulder Patch: Worn 1/2 inch below the shoulder seam of the left sleeve
centered on epaulet.
4. Tie/tab is optional when short-sleeve shirt/blouse is worn.
Figure 2-20. Men's and Women's Pullover Sweater


AFI36-2903 2 AUGUST 2006                                          29
Figure 2.9. Pullover Sweater.
NOTES:
1. Place metallic nametag on wearer's right side with the bottom of the nametag level centered
between the middle of the sleeve seam and the seam of the neckline; position at an appropriate
level down from shoulder seam (applicable to both male and female).
2. May be worn indoors or outdoors.
3. Tie/Tab is optional.
4. Collar of shirt may be worn inside or outside of sweater.
5. Sleeves may not be worn pushed up.
6. Officers and Senior NCOs wear shoulder mark rank insignia. All other enlisted members wear
metal rank insignia 5/8 inch from edge and centered. Center horizontally on the epaulet, with bottom
of insignia 1-inch from shoulder seam.
7. Sweater may be tucked under as illustrated above.

[LtCol White]

To everyone posting on here, please rest assured that I do read every post thoroughly and make notes of suggestions and commonalities. I try not to post replies unless there is an issue that needs clarification as I have done already.

I value everyone's feedback and input and no post goes undread whether I agree with it or not. I ask that everyone be respectful of eachother's opinions and ideas.

As I stated in the original announcement of this committee, we recognize that we will not be able to please everyone and be everything to everyone. Every recommendation being made by the committee is being done with "cost to the member" as a forefront as well as the appearance and image of the organization. No frivilous changes will be recommened. We are attempting to put an end to the "identity crisis" that seems to have developed with our uniforms. 

Next week, I will be able to being posting photos of what the committee feels is in the best interest of CAP for everyone's comment and review. I think most will be quite pleased with what is to be proposed up the chain.

[riffraff]

To dispel any doubt or confusion, the USAF uniforms are NOT and will NOT be proposed to be discarded. Neither will the Corporate Service uniform. The goal is to closer align the 2 in insignia and have one for one of USAF and Corporate uniforms. Clarify the guidelines for each, eliminate confusion and create clarity, and clean up the appearance of the uniform closet.

I mean this respectfully but what you're describing is really just another round of minor uniform revisions. Your statement implies that CAP acknowledges the existence of at least two distinct subgroups within its senior membership that will continue to wear distinctly separate uniforms -- one for fat & fuzzies and another for smooth & fit. I'm completely at a loss as to why CAP isn't moving towards one line of uniforms? Granted that one line would have to be non-USAF.

So the fundamental problem will remain: not all members can wear USAF uniforms.
- USAF will not (and IMO, should not) compromise their standards any more than they already have.
- CAP will not let go of the USAF uniforms despite X percentage of the membership not being able to wear them.

Which leaves us right where we are today -- a complete lack of uniformity.

[LtCol White]

To dispel any doubt or confusion, the USAF uniforms are NOT and will NOT be proposed to be discarded. Neither will the Corporate Service uniform. The goal is to closer align the 2 in insignia and have one for one of USAF and Corporate uniforms. Clarify the guidelines for each, eliminate confusion and create clarity, and clean up the appearance of the uniform closet.

I mean this respectfully but what you're describing is really just another round of minor uniform revisions. Your statement implies that CAP acknowledges the existence of at least two distinct subgroups within its senior membership that will continue to wear distinctly separate uniforms -- one for fat & fuzzies and another for smooth & fit. I'm completely at a loss as to why CAP isn't moving towards one line of uniforms? Granted that one line would have to be non-USAF.

So the fundamental problem will remain: not all members can wear USAF uniforms.
- USAF will not (and IMO, should not) compromise their standards any more than they already have.
- CAP will not let go of the USAF uniforms despite X percentage of the membership not being able to wear them.

Which leaves us right where we are today -- a complete lack of uniformity.

CAP is an Air Force organization. As such, the Air Force uniforms are at the core of the organization. Plain and simple. The organization doesn't change to conform to members, members change to conform to the organization. There are rules and regulations that have to be followed. CAP will never propose dropping the USAF uniforms.

What we ARE doing is aligning the USAF/Corporate service uniforms so that it is clearer that they belong to the same organization and will create a greater sense of unity. ALL changes are minor changes and always will be until there is a major uniform change such as BDU to ABU. We are trying to address all the issues out there still remaining so that there doesn't have to be anymore changes for a few years.

Air Force isn't going to completely change its standards for CAP's wear of its uniform because we want them to just as CAP isn't going to drop the wear of the Air Force uniform because some members want them to.

We work within the realm of what is required and what is possible. You don't propose things that you know in advance will be turned down or considered ridiculous because you lose your credibility in doing this. When you act like a petulant child, you will be treated as one. In many cases, this has been part of our problem. Children don't demand action of the parents and to USAF, we are the child.

This being said, there will be a greater sense of unity once the changes are approved and implemented.

[jeders]

To dispel any doubt or confusion, the USAF uniforms are NOT and will NOT be proposed to be discarded. Neither will the Corporate Service uniform. The goal is to closer align the 2 in insignia and have one for one of USAF and Corporate uniforms. Clarify the guidelines for each, eliminate confusion and create clarity, and clean up the appearance of the uniform closet.

I mean this respectfully but what you're describing is really just another round of minor uniform revisions. Your statement implies that CAP acknowledges the existence of at least two distinct subgroups within its senior membership that will continue to wear distinctly separate uniforms -- one for fat & fuzzies and another for smooth & fit. I'm completely at a loss as to why CAP isn't moving towards one line of uniforms? Granted that one line would have to be non-USAF.

So the fundamental problem will remain: not all members can wear USAF uniforms.
- USAF will not (and IMO, should not) compromise their standards any more than they already have.
- CAP will not let go of the USAF uniforms despite X percentage of the membership not being able to wear them.

Which leaves us right where we are today -- a complete lack of uniformity.

CAP is an Air Force organization. As such, the Air Force uniforms are at the core of the organization. Plain and simple. The organization doesn't change to conform to members, members change to conform to the organization. There are rules and regulations that have to be followed. CAP will never propose dropping the USAF uniforms.

What we ARE doing is aligning the USAF/Corporate service uniforms so that it is clearer that they belong to the same organization and will create a greater sense of unity. ALL changes are minor changes and always will be until there is a major uniform change such as BDU to ABU. We are trying to address all the issues out there still remaining so that there doesn't have to be anymore changes for a few years.

Air Force isn't going to completely change its standards for CAP's wear of its uniform because we want them to just as CAP isn't going to drop the wear of the Air Force uniform because some members want them to.

We work within the realm of what is required and what is possible. You don't propose things that you know in advance will be turned down or considered ridiculous because you lose your credibility in doing this. When you act like a petulant child, you will be treated as one. In many cases, this has been part of our problem. Children don't demand action of the parents and to USAF, we are the child.

This being said, there will be a greater sense of unity once the changes are approved and implemented.

I realize this adds little to the discussion at hand, but thank you and amen.

[LtCol White]

Actually it does because its directly related to what is possible and what is not.

[riffraff]

CAP is an Air Force organization. As such, the Air Force uniforms are at the core of the organization. Plain and simple. The organization doesn't change to conform to members, members change to conform to the organization. There are rules and regulations that have to be followed. CAP will never propose dropping the USAF uniforms.

I'm not disagreeing with your logic. However your statement contradicts current CAP practices. We have changed the organization to conform to the members. If we hadn't, the only uniforms would be USAF uniforms. Why else would these corporate uniforms exist? Standards were lowered/dropped to accommodate a larger pool of potential members. This is what created the uniform mess that exists today.

For whatever reason, CAP cannot or will not make the decision that clearly needs to be made.

[LtCol White]

CAP is an Air Force organization. As such, the Air Force uniforms are at the core of the organization. Plain and simple. The organization doesn't change to conform to members, members change to conform to the organization. There are rules and regulations that have to be followed. CAP will never propose dropping the USAF uniforms.

I'm not disagreeing with your logic. However your statement contradicts current CAP practices. We have changed the organization to conform to the members. If we hadn't, the only uniforms would be USAF uniforms. Why else would these corporate uniforms exist? Standards were lowered/dropped to accommodate a larger pool of potential members. This is what created the uniform mess that exists today.

For whatever reason, CAP cannot or will not make the decision that clearly needs to be made.

That is because CAP doesn't have to be as rigid as USAF. There was a move to accomodate members who could not meet USAF standards in order to be inclusive. There has always been an option for those members. Only in recent times have the numerous options been added and that is what is causing the problems outlined by all the members here. There is and has to be a limit to that accomodation. You don't make a complete change from your core entity for the sake of being inclusive.

[riffraff]

That is because CAP doesn't have to be as rigid as USAF. There was a move to accomodate members who could not meet USAF standards in order to be inclusive. There has always been an option for those members. Only in recent times have the numerous options been added and that is what is causing the problems outlined by all the members here. There is and has to be a limit to that accomodation. You don't make a complete change from your core entity for the sake of being inclusive.

Again, I agree with your statements. USAF has accomodated CAP by the allowances given for height/weight. It should have ended there.

I guess my question is how does CAP move back to its core? IMO, continuing down the path of two separate uniforms (USAF and Corporate) is a really bad idea. I'm all for being inclusive but where does CAP draw the line? More importantly, does CAP have the will to draw the line? To the latter, I'd say the answer is no.

[SarDragon]

I don't think we need to resemble other ES organizations...we really don't work with any except for State police and local Law Enforcement agencies. What we need to do is try and resemble USAF as close as we possibly can.. We will find ourselves much better off in the end.

 Yes, we have FAR too many uniform combos, everyone agrees on that. What we don't agree on is how to eliminate those combos. Here's what you do in my opinion:

1) Eliminate with a very short phase out period the whites/greys, they really serve no purpose anymore now that we have the TPU.

Sure they do. That's what the fuzzies wear.

2) Eliminate the blazer uniforms. Members who can not / will not wear a military uniform can wear appropriate civilian dress to formal/semi formal receptions.

I don't see that going away. That was our first "corporate" uniform, and conveys membership and rank without being too civilian.

3) spell out MILSPEC standards for the white aviator shirt (for the TPU)

When the uniform was first introduced, the specific Van Heusen style was noted at least in the Bookstore catalog, and perhaps in the introduction letter. I was inactive when that uniform was introduced.

[39-1 text: (3) Shirt. White, dress type, or white turtleneck
sweater (regular or mock). The aviator shirt (white dress
shirt with epaulets) is also authorized. This shirt is a
special manufactured item available through the CAP
Bookstore.]

4) Restrict the wear of a standardized Polo shirt for those members who will not or can not fit into a military image. (You have those who simply WILL NOT want to wear a military looking uniform)

Yup. the fuzzies need something to wear.

Yes, I would love to phase out everything except for USAF uniforms but sadly that can't happen nor can we really lose the USAF uniforms. I would love to get rid of the BBDU and the blue flight suit/jumpsuit but once again we really can't.

5) Spell out MILSPEC standards for the BBDU and the blue NOMEX flight suit.

You betcha we can't. As for MILSPECS, I don't see it happening. The military doesn't issue either item on a wide scale basis, and the olde issue items already have military alphabet soup assigned. Getting that info into the reg would be easy, but actually enforcing it would be difficult at best.

6) Once the ABU comes online for us to wear we should establish as short of a phase out period as we can for the BDU's otherwise we end up still looking like a NATO conference.

Availability and member wallets should have a bearing on that.

I don't think there is much we can do to eliminate the NATO looking conferences unless we start restricting what uniforms can be worn and where they can be worn.  

 Let's keep the TPU as is except for some minor changes to the jacket ie: replace the ugly silver braid with the standard blue braid.

Keep it only if all members needing/choosing to wear corporate uniforms are allowed to wear it.

We can't change the USAF uniform, so leave it alone and start begging USAF for whatever changes we would like to see.

 Our major problems are the several different corporate uniforms that we have, not the rank insignia. We have four different corporate uniforms not counting the BBDU or the blue flight suit. We don't need to have both the TPU and the white/greys, and a blazer uniform, and a polo shirt uniform. Eliminate the white/greys and the blazer uniform.  Those steps would eliminate a large portion of the problems we face. Of course you will not please everyone.

Those steps would eliminate a uniform choice for some of our members. You have not addressed that anywhere above.

[MajorChuck]

My entire tenure in Cap there has aways been 2 uniform styles.
Then National introduced a third, the TPU,CPU or whatever its called.
Thats when the "Great Debate" on uniforms cane to a Head.

   Then the next logical step is eminiate ( with a generious phase out date ), the white shirt/grey pants/blue blazer. For a polo combo, use the Blue pants and adjust polo shirt color to match.

Im a size 58 and I wear the blue pants, so getting sized should'nt be a problem.

BTW  Ive seen different shades of dark blue  worn as New Uni. current Regs say
" Blue Air force style" that might need to be addressed.

[JCW0312]

The only suggestion I have is to replace the models with mannequins in the photos of 39-1. Some of the photos in the current edition are kind of hard to look at. 

[star1151]

For a polo combo, use the Blue pants and adjust polo shirt color to match.

Did I miss something?  Why is everyone suggesting matching shirt and pants for the golf shirt uniform?  Is it to dissuade people from wearing it?