NHQ Uniform Committee

[DrJbdm]

I'm sure there are some members who are simply too big too fit into the TPU, those members should consider the golf shirt combo or better yet just losing weight. If you are too big to fit into the upper sizes of the TPU you have more problems then we can solve. my goal isn't to find something that even the morbidly obese can fit into, it's to find something that MOST of us can wear. Most members of CAP are within 25 pounds or so of being able to wear the AF uniform.

  If you are morbidly obese then CAP probably isn't for you.

  As for the blazer combo, as John K. pointed out I guess we have to keep that one because it's required for IACE, BUT it could be restricted to only that activity. we need to trim down the uniforms. But you will never convice some to drop the white/greys and you will never convince others to drop the AF uniform. personally I think it's an almost impossible task to trim down the uniforms with out pissing off half the membership.

   Although I have yet to hear a persuasive argument as to why we couldn't drop the white/greys? you  can't use weight or fuzzy for the argument because the polo shirt covers that section of the membership.

[O-Rex]

I'm sure there are some members who are simply too big too fit into the TPU, those members should consider the golf shirt combo or better yet just losing weight. If you are too big to fit into the upper sizes of the TPU you have more problems then we can solve. my goal isn't to find something that even the morbidly obese can fit into, it's to find something that MOST of us can wear. Most members of CAP are within 25 pounds or so of being able to wear the AF uniform.

  If you are morbidly obese then CAP probably isn't for you.

  As for the blazer combo, as John K. pointed out I guess we have to keep that one because it's required for IACE, BUT it could be restricted to only that activity. we need to trim down the uniforms. But you will never convice some to drop the white/greys and you will never convince others to drop the AF uniform. personally I think it's an almost impossible task to trim down the uniforms with out pissing off half the membership.

   Although I have yet to hear a persuasive argument as to why we couldn't drop the white/greys? you  can't use weight or fuzzy for the argument because the polo shirt covers that section of the membership.

The blazer has it's place:  I wore it only once when I gave a presentation on CAP to a VFW post-given the target audience and fraternal atmosohere, I thought something a bit 'understated' was more appropriate (also gave me the Op to wear my own VFW garrison cap.)

You rarely see them anyway.

[JayT]

I'm sure there are some members who are simply too big too fit into the TPU, those members should consider the golf shirt combo or better yet just losing weight. If you are too big to fit into the upper sizes of the TPU you have more problems then we can solve. my goal isn't to find something that even the morbidly obese can fit into, it's to find something that MOST of us can wear. Most members of CAP are within 25 pounds or so of being able to wear the AF uniform.

  If you are morbidly obese then CAP probably isn't for you.

  As for the blazer combo, as John K. pointed out I guess we have to keep that one because it's required for IACE, BUT it could be restricted to only that activity. we need to trim down the uniforms. But you will never convice some to drop the white/greys and you will never convince others to drop the AF uniform. personally I think it's an almost impossible task to trim down the uniforms with out pissing off half the membership.

   Although I have yet to hear a persuasive argument as to why we couldn't drop the white/greys? you  can't use weight or fuzzy for the argument because the polo shirt covers that section of the membership.

Can't wear ribbons on a golf shirt.

[baronet68]

My opinion won't be popular but here goes:

• Eliminate USAF service dress uniforms for ALL Senior Members (sunset date tied to USAF sunset for adoption of Heritage uniform)
• Maintain USAF service dress uniforms for Cadets only
• Authorize CSU/TPU for Senior Members only
• Authorize golf shirt w/Khaki pants for ALL members
• Eliminate Woodland BDU for Senior Members (sunset date same as USAF)
• Authorize ABU for Cadets only
• Authorize BBDU for Senior Members only
• Eliminate USAF flight suits and replace with blue flight suit (sunset ~5 years)
• Leave Blazer and Mess Dress as is

Generally speaking:
USAF uniform = Cadet
Corporate uniform = Senior Member
Golf shirt = Everyone

[JohnKachenmeister]

My opinion won't be popular but here goes:

• Eliminate USAF service dress uniforms for ALL Senior Members (sunset date tied to USAF sunset for adoption of Heritage uniform)
• Maintain USAF service dress uniforms for Cadets only
• Authorize CSU/TPU for Senior Members only
• Authorize golf shirt w/Khaki pants for ALL members
• Eliminate Woodland BDU for Senior Members (sunset date same as USAF)
• Authorize ABU for Cadets only
• Authorize BBDU for Senior Members only
• Eliminate USAF flight suits and replace with blue flight suit (sunset ~5 years)
• Leave Blazer and Mess Dress as is

Generally speaking:
USAF uniform = Cadet
Corporate uniform = Senior Member
Golf shirt = Everyone

I think your plan would be more popular than you think, Mike.  Just a few changes in the TPU would make it acceptable.  Losing the silly silver braid, for example, and permitting military badges and ribbons.

The biggest problem with your plan would be the phase-in of the blue flight suit.  That gets real costly. The BBDU could be phased in as the BDU's wear out, but the blue flight suit costs like $275 or more.

Personally, my plan would be pretty much the same as yours, but I would also phase in a "CAP Corporate" version of the Hap Arnold uniform.  I still think the TPU looks like a yacht club commodore's uniform, or an admiral from some third-world patrol-boat navy.

[RiverAux]

I think some folks are getting more than a little carried away here.  I didn't hear a request to totally re-vamp CAP's uniform system. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

That was my point earlier.  The Air Force is completely re-vamping theirs.  The BDU is going away in favor of the ABU, and the current 3-button McPeak service dress blue is going away, being replaced by the Hap Arnold Heritage uniform.

That's why we should be looking ahead for a uniform for CAP through the mid-21st Century. 

There is no reason our organization should look like an anachronism just because our airplanes still have propellers.

[mikeylikey]

I think some folks are getting more than a little carried away here.  I didn't hear a request to totally re-vamp CAP's uniform system. 

Agreed!  Keep what we have......don't make people BUY MORE CRAP.  If you want to work on the TPU.....that is fine with me.  But unless you are removing the Grey rank slides for metal rank, or putting blue slides in place of the grey ones on the AF style Service Dress......DON'T TOUCH that uniform.  There is nothing that needs "reworked" other than what I just commented on.  If you (uniform decider's) make me buy a new nameplate to match the TPU nameplate, and take the "US" cutouts off so we can put "CAP" cutouts on to match the TPU.....or whatever else you decide the AF style needs to match the fatties in the TPU, I will be so disappointed.  

Perhaps instead of creating a uniform committee....a Health and wellness committee should be created and we can start working on the REAL problem here.  The FAT people, who can't fit into the AF style.  

Here is a suggestion, sweat pants and t-shirts as a new uniform for those that have found they can't wear AF style, and have trouble finding a TPU jacket big enough!

Stop eating the donuts, start walking around.......invest sometime to improve yourselves.  You body will thank you later.  

I think the TPU is fine as it is.  We already saw AF come down and take away items off of it, I seriously doubt we will get those back anytime soon.  So what luck is there to retooling that uniform?  NONE!  Instead those that can't wear the AF style, will most likely punish those that can.  That is my prediction.  The first changes we see will be to the AF style, not the TPU.  

What a sad day.  

(BTW.....if anyone needs help on starting a walking routine or weight loss program, the American Heart Association website is a good place to start)

[JayT]

Was it really the Air Force that pulled the US devices off of the TPU?

[arajca]

Under items the wing commander can authorize, remove the white helmet liner for ES.

Kill the Honor Guard uniform.

Create a new section, "Special Purpose Uniform Items", to allow for safety vests, hard hats, color guard equipment, shoulder cords, and other limited use items, instead of having them scattered throughout the manual. Provide specifications for each item, ie under "hard hat" include "OSHA compliant."

Move the shoulder cord back to the top of the epaulet. Prohibit the shoulder cord on non-service uniforms (bdu's, flight suits, etc).

Sepcifically include or exclude the first sergeant diamond. That would solve a long running argument about whether it is authorized (IAW CAPR 52-16) or not (IAW CAPM 39-1).

Keep the USAF flightsuits. Some wings and regions mandate wearing nomex flightsuits for flying and this keeps an affordable supply available. Loose the plastic grade insignia, though.

Change the bdu and bbdu tapes and insignia to a navy or midnight blue background with a 6 year phase in to allow for consumption of current stocks. Include a requirement that all insignia and tapes must have the same color background on the uniform, ie no ultramarine GTM badge with navy CAP tape. Either all ultramarine or all navy/midnight blue.

For all insignia, create standard specifications using industry standard nomenclature, ie Shade #### blue instead of navy blue, specific measurements for nametag sizes and fonts, etc. NO BRAND NAMES OR BRAND SPECIFIC NAMES!

With the golf shirt, authorize a bdu-style pant that is the same, or nearly the same, color as the regular pant as a working uniform.

As mentioned earlier, authorize a semiformal version of the CSU - AF blue bow tie, mini-medals instead of ribbons, no name tag. A few folks have advocated changing the mess dress should boards to silver or grey braid instead of blue, however the AF uses silver braid on its mess dress boards, so that probably wouldn't be approved.

More to follow...

[RiverAux]

Kach, its not as if uniforms will not continue to be discussed and changed at every national board, NEC, or BoG meeting.  We should be taking this opportunity to fix actual problems with the manual concerning what we have now.  ABU won't be an issue for several more years so we can worry about it then. 

[mikeylikey]

Was it really the Air Force that pulled the US devices off of the TPU?

Yes.....and the rank off the flight cap.  They were also behind the silver braid.  And the addition of the CAP Cutout to the Army black windbreaker.

[MIKE]

To those that would discontinue the Air Force style uniforms for those of us who may not be the typical senior member and can actually fit into the uniform without strain, in favor of TPUs and Field Uniforms cause it makes you feel better about yourselves... I say Boooooo and begin heckling.

You should be glad I don't have any rotten vegetables handy... As your TPUs would need a through dry cleaning.

It had to be said.

[JCW0312]

I guess I got a little confused along this topic. Is LtCol White updating 39-1 or the uniforms all together? Or both? 

[JCW0312]

OK. Nevermind. I just re-re-read his original post "to resolve our uniform issues and also revise CAPM39-1".

I love it when I answer my own questions. I just dont know whether to feel smart or really dumb. 

[riffraff]

Some wings and regions mandate wearing nomex flightsuits for flying and this keeps an affordable supply available.

Nomex affords near-zero protection for the types of fires that occur in G-A aircraft. They were designed to provide a few seconds protection from high-temp, flash-fires -- i.e. just enough time to eject/abandon military jet aircraft.

A blue cotton flight suit made to the same pattern/specs as the CWU-27 would be just as effective/ineffective. Flight Suits makes them for about $100 and they are lightyears better than the POS Vanguard is selling.

[DrJbdm]

getting rid of AF flight suits for the blue flight suit makes no sense unless CAP starts issuing them. right now a good condition nomex AF flight suit can be had for around $30 used, that is many times less expensive then the the $240 price of a blue flight suit that you would have an extremely hard time buying used in order to save money.

  I don't know if a nomex flight suit offers me any protection or not but I think if I was in a fire I would rather be wearing a nomex flight suit that may offer some protection then in a cotten flight suit that will offer no protection.

[arajca]

Some wings and regions mandate wearing nomex flightsuits for flying and this keeps an affordable supply available.

Nomex affords near-zero protection for the types of fires that occur in G-A aircraft. They were designed to provide a few seconds protection from high-temp, flash-fires -- i.e. just enough time to eject/abandon military jet aircraft.

A blue cotton flight suit made to the same pattern/specs as the CWU-27 would be just as effective/ineffective. Flight Suits makes them for about $100 and they are lightyears better than the POS Vanguard is selling.

I'm not commenting on the protection value of the flight suits, merely stating that some wings/regions require them and if the AF flight suit is not authorized, many aircrew will drop out instead of paying $200+ for a CAP blue flightsuit.

[ZigZag911]

Actually, two of my closest friends retired from the military -- one served over 30 years as an officer in AF reserve, the other over 35 years as a Army reserve NCO.

Both did active duty tours before changing to reserves, somewhere around 6  to 8 years.

Both strongly believe that CAP senior members should get out of USAF uniforms, for several reasons -- most of all, we are not AF officers, we are only AF auxiliary part of the time, and since the reality is that even those blessed few who fit in the uniforms frequently wear them improperly, as a matter of respect for our parent service (part time though it is!) we should refrain from wearing their uniforms.

They also think that neither seniors nor cadets should wear BDUs (or ABUs, when those become available to CAP); they view these uniforms as the working garb of combat soldiers.

I am inclined to agree with them and I think, therefore, with Kach & Baronet. I can live with the TPU if need be....I'll get the darn thing tailored! I'm certainly not going to be run off at this late date over a uniform! Or the expense associated with it.

I agree with Kach, phase in for the blue flight suit needs to be stretched way out....in fact, might be best to leave this one completely alone....is it that big a deal if some air crew wear the blue and some the green? Especially if we manage to standardize everything else?

However -- how many of the would-be Rambos (or Steve Canyons) will we lose if they can't dress up like the Big Air Force?!?

[mikeylikey]

However -- how many of the would-be Rambos (or Steve Canyons) will we lose if they can't dress up like the Big Air Force?!?

As a person who wears a uniform 6 out of 7 days a week, and as an Officer, and a combat veteran with multiple deployments since 2001, I don't think I agree with you or your friends.  CAP has worn a military uniform before the AF existed, and will continue to (most likely after the AF is disbanded).  The military allows CAP to wear a uniform, CAP does not force the military to allow it.  BDU's are no more a combat uniform than t-shirts and shorts.  Seriously, multiple groups in this country wear a variant of the BDU, because of it's practicality, not because they want to be Rambo. 

You are right, that if people like you had their way and got rid of the AF style, we WOULD lose members.  Cadets would disappear first, then many SM's would follow suit.