Falling out

[stratoflyer]

When the command is given to a flight to fall out, what is the proper procedure?

I was taught to take 1 step backward starting with your left foot, and then about face. Same when being dismissed individually or from a board. I was challenged on this today and couldn't find it in D&C manual.

[IceNine]

3.3.1.4. Fall Out. The command is FALL OUT. On the command FALL OUT, individuals may relax
in a standing position or break ranks. They must remain in the immediate area, and no specific method
of dispersal is required. Moderate speech is permitted.

Basically you just go from being a flight, to not.  There is no step back, turn around go to parade rest, etc.

Only thing is you are to stay right there in the area.

Or you could use this

4.3.5. The flight is usually formed and dismissed by the drill instructor or flight sergeant. On the command DISMISSED, airmen break ranks and leave the area.

[Pumbaa]

NO FALL OUT DANCE!!!!!!

IceNine is correct!!!

[Eclipse]

We can dance if we want to!
We can leave your friends behind!
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine

[hatentx]

Where did the "fall out dance" come from then.  I recall WIWAC in AFJROTC and also in AD that the "fall out dance"  The proper way of doing it.  I have not researched the drill manuals yet but it had to have come from some where if the cites that were given are correct.

[DNall]

We can dance if we want to!
We can leave your friends behind!
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine

anybody else just sing that in their head? Dangit!!!

[Pumbaa]

Let's dance put on your red shoes
and dance the blues

Let's dance to the song
they're playin' on the radio

[SarDragon]

118.e. At the command  FALL OUT the men leave ranks, but remain in the immediate area. At the command FALL IN former places are resumed at attention in the formation prescribed.

138.g. The flight is normally formed and dismissed by the drill instructor or by the flight sergeant. At the command DISMISSED , the men leave ranks and the formation disperses. The men leave the area.

That's what I learned as a cadet. However, the "fall out dance" was around even back then. It'd been around a LONG time. I joined in 1964 and we were doing it then.

[lordmonar]

We can dance if we want to!
We can leave your friends behind!
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine

anybody else just sing that in their head? Dangit!!!

S....s.s.s.s.s.s
A....a.a.a.a.a.a
F....f.f.f.f.f.f.f.f
E...e.e.e.e.e.e
T....t.t.t.t.t.t.t
Y...y.y.y.y.y.y.y

Safety
Dance



Did that help? 

[CadetProgramGuy]

We can dance if we want to!
We can leave your friends behind!
'Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine

anybody else just sing that in their head? Dangit!!!

S....s.s.s.s.s.s
A....a.a.a.a.a.a
F....f.f.f.f.f.f.f.f
E...e.e.e.e.e.e
T....t.t.t.t.t.t.t
Y...y.y.y.y.y.y.y

Safety
Dance



Did that help? 

dum de dum dum...

[stratoflyer]

I did what the regs say with some cadets and it looks HORRIBLE!!! I like doing the whole fallout routine as I was taught even at encampments with a bunch of AD folks present.

[CadetProgramGuy]

The fall out dance is what i've been taught and taught to others, including Officers in formation.

[DC]

I was taught the fall out dance, specifically one step back, then about face, but stopped when I discovered what was supposed to be done.

Personally I see it as an unecessary complication to drill, many cadets have a hard enough time getting drill down without little routines that add to it. Then you have the really high speed cadets that go perusing through AFMAN 36-2203, then ask their Flight Sgt about why they don't do it like the book says.

Drill is supposed to be done precisely by the set standard, and it is not supposed to 'look good'. It is what it is. Its like deciding that you don't like the way we salute, and start teaching cadets to salute palm out...

[jimmydeanno]

I hate when people do the "fall out dance."  It isn't what is supposed to be done.

The command FALL OUT isn't meant to be done with precision.  If anything it is the antithesis of precision - you are meant to get rid of your formation. 

[ol'fido]

This right here is the reason I started going back to encampments as a senior.  In our squadron we were teaching the cadets "no fall out dance" just break ranks. Then they would go off to encampment and come back telling us they got yelled at for not doing the dance. So me and my Ranger buddy decided to go see what the heck was going on. We found that they were trying to teach the dance but if you asked the flight leader or  squadron commander to show it to you in the regs, you would get a lot of hemming and hawing and then you would see them frantically thumbing through a drill manual trying to find it. I even asked a senior who had been a TI at Lackland what was correct and he thought the dance was right until I showed him the above quoted regs.

[DC]

All Cadet NCOs should be required to read this....

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Drill_Myths

[lordmonar]

Just a quick question.....what is so wrong with teaching the fall out dance?

Sure it is not in the regulations....but so what?

Sure we need to be standardised....but if the "proper" way to fall out is to just break ranks.....standardisation is not really an issue is it?

[DC]

Just a quick question.....what is so wrong with teaching the fall out dance?

Sure it is not in the regulations....but so what?

Sure we need to be standardised....but if the "proper" way to fall out is to just break ranks.....standardisation is not really an issue is it?

Exactly, the regulation states the proper way to do it is to just break ranks. It doesn't say do whatever you want, it says just break ranks.

[lordmonar]

Just a quick question.....what is so wrong with teaching the fall out dance?

Sure it is not in the regulations....but so what?

Sure we need to be standardised....but if the "proper" way to fall out is to just break ranks.....standardisation is not really an issue is it?

Exactly, the regulation states the proper way to do it is to just break ranks. It doesn't say do whatever you want, it says just break ranks.

Okay.....and the rule of thumb with regulations is that you can always add to them to make the more stringent.....but can't take away from them.

If the regulation said "don't do the fall out dance" that would be one thing....but it does not......ergo it is NOT against regulations to invent a different procedure.

Again.....standardisation is not an issue....it is not like a column/facing/flanking movemement where if one flight did it differently it would screw up everyone else.   It is "fall out"...and that is all.

[DC]

Just a quick question.....what is so wrong with teaching the fall out dance?

Sure it is not in the regulations....but so what?

Sure we need to be standardised....but if the "proper" way to fall out is to just break ranks.....standardisation is not really an issue is it?

Exactly, the regulation states the proper way to do it is to just break ranks. It doesn't say do whatever you want, it says just break ranks.

Okay.....and the rule of thumb with regulations is that you can always add to them to make the more stringent.....but can't take away from them.

If the regulation said "don't do the fall out dance" that would be one thing....but it does not......ergo it is NOT against regulations to invent a different procedure.

Again.....standardisation is not an issue....it is not like a column/facing/flanking movemement where if one flight did it differently it would screw up everyone else.   It is "fall out"...and that is all.

In that case it would be fine if a cadet was only a member of one flight with one Flight CC and Sgt for their entire career. It would (and does) confuse the heck out of cadets to go to Encampment, or even transfer to another flight, if the staff can do what ever the heck they want.

Plus, for all people harp on uniform standardization here, shouldn't drill standardization also matter? Would it not look wierd for a squadron with, for example, three flights, fell out, and each flight did it in a different way?

What is wrong with just breaking ranks, as specified in 36-2203, why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

[davidsinn]

Just a quick question.....what is so wrong with teaching the fall out dance?

It's Wrong

Sure it is not in the regulations....but so what?

It's Wrong.

[JoeTomasone]

All Cadet NCOs should be required to read this....

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Drill_Myths

This link is very disturbing as it has invalidated a substantial portion of the drill I learned WIWAC.

I think I preferred blissful ignorance.         (j/k)

[SarDragon]

What's really sad is that much of the "that's the way I learned it" bad info goes all the way back to WIWAC, when they gave us all this fancy new book called The Leadership Laboratory Manual, CAPM 50-3, which had, as part of its contents, the complete D&C manual of that era.

Many read it and learned from it. Many didn't. The ones who didn't have perpetuated the wrong ways of doing things for far too long. There are even folks on here who seem to support the "that's the way I learned it" attitude, but I'll not go there tonight.

[DC]

All Cadet NCOs should be required to read this....

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=Drill_Myths

This link is very disturbing as it has invalidated a substantial portion of the drill I learned WIWAC.

I think I preferred blissful ignorance.         (j/k)

It is very disturbing to me that despite all of the resources available to cadet leaders, the CAP Myths section on cap.gov, the link I provided on the CadetStuff Wiki, and, oh my gosh, the actual Drill Manual, so many of these myths pervade CAP, and are fanactically defended by some individuals because "Its what I was taught". Even at Encampment I have seen some astonishing things taught be the Command Staff, Phase IV cadets. They should know better. The base issue in all of this is pure laziness. If people were willing to spend an hour and read a few chapters of AFMAN 36-2203, these issues would not exist. Literally, out of the entire manual, reading Chapters 1 - 4, a whoping 45 or so pages, would eliminate this.

So simple.

[caprr275]

I don't think its nessarly laziness but more so they were taught wrong to begin with and it has become habit for them... you always remember the first way something was taught to you EVEN IF ITS WRONG.

i HATE with a burning passion the fall out dance.  the second worse thing is the cadets counting off 3 paces from the flight commander and using that to center the flight...

grrrr READ THE REGS PEOPLE

<end rant>

[DC]

I don't think its nessarly laziness but more so they were taught wrong to begin with and it has become habit for them... you always remember the first way something was taught to you EVEN IF ITS WRONG.

i HATE with a burning passion the fall out dance.  the second worse thing is the cadets counting off 3 paces from the flight commander and using that to center the flight...

grrrr READ THE REGS PEOPLE

<end rant>

But it is laziness. People are taught the wrong way, and they go for years without ever bothering to check for themselves.

One thing I preach to my cadets is self-reliance, and never taking someone's word for something. If I have to ask someone a question, I look the answer up myself as soon as possible. I have heard some people say that they don't read the manual because they are 'intimidated' by it. I don't get it.

[davedove]

Sure it is not in the regulations....but so what?

It's Wrong.

It's not so much that the dance itself is wrong, but rather teaching that it's required.

The regs don't really say that you can't fall out in a uniform matter, but it does say there is no required method.

The danger comes when the cadet gets in the habit from doing it at one location and thinking that it's required everywhere.

[jimmydeanno]

You know, now that I think about this a little more, I distinctly remember picking my wife up everyday from the final day formation when she was at Tech School.  When the command "FALL OUT" or "DISSMISSED" was given, they would all fall out, but not before shouting their TRS motto/chant.

I suppose it is along the same lines.  I don't remember anyone being court marshalled for not following 36-2003 though...

I just don't like it.

[NIN]

You know, now that I think about this a little more, I distinctly remember picking my wife up everyday from the final day formation when she was at Tech School.  When the command "FALL OUT" or "DISSMISSED" was given, they would all fall out, but not before shouting their TRS motto/chant.

I suppose it is along the same lines.  I don't remember anyone being court marshalled for not following 36-2003 though...

I just don't like it.

The hint here is that when she was in BMT, she was taught the "36-2203" way of doing things.  So she "learned it right the first time."  Subsequently, you learn that "Oh, this is the way we do things -here-.. but when I go to deployment X w/o my unit, or I PCS to Alaska, likely I will do it the way I was taught in BMT once again."

I learned the FM22-5 (now FM 3-21.5) method in BCT for the Army, then I went to AIT at Fort Eustis where we did some things that I was convinced we'd get shot for, until I realized that it was a motivational AIT thing.  But when I got to my unit in Korea, I was smart enough to know that you didn't do that stuff.  But there sure might be something -else- that we'd do...

[lordmonar]

One of the problems is that even at BMTS...by professional TIs....they are still teaching it wrong! (ie Not IAW AFM 36-2203).

I was taught the fall out dance at basic and reinforced at tech shool.  I never looked in 26-2203 (AFM 50-14 back then) to see what was "right" or not.  My TIs used "by my command" at me and said "guide left/right" to get me to move the flight over.

And as far as I know they are still using these "wrong" commands and procedures.

Bottom line....is that you can be a pureist and yell at those who teach it wrong.....but it's not like the end of the world.

[PHall]

And the funny part is that the MTI's at Lackland are the one's who write the 36-2203. :clap:

[hatentx]

So maybe it isn't written in the Regs for what ever reason but could it be possible to be some piece of tradition that has never died.  I know the Army is full of "do it this way because we have always done it that way" type of thing.  Again I would really be interested in the "fall out dance"'s start.

[lordmonar]

It has been around for a very long time.  I went to basic in '86.

[PHall]

I went to basic in '74, we were doing then too.

[SarDragon]

And WIWAC in '64, as noted above.

[hatentx]

So just in our little forum we are going back 40+ years with it being around.  I really want to side on this being so oral tradition.  Who knows with a little research Im sure we can figure it out.