Automatic PD progresions for Phase IV cadets

[Eclipse]

Cadets are never responsible for themselves or others - we may give them some delegation, they are never ultimately responsible for anything, regardless of age, as long as it says
"cadet" on their ID card.

Then you are crippling your cadets' development.  By the way, most seniors involved in CP aren't ultimately responsible either, but I guess because that doesn't matter.

Now you're just throwing text, you know very well who is responsible in any circumstance involving cadets.

Let's at least speak in the facts and practical realities of the real program, not the brochures.

[Elioron]

Let's at least speak in the facts and practical realities of the real program, not the brochures.

Phase III cadets need to be taking charge of their program.  If they aren't, they aren't meeting the Leadership Expectations.  Phase IV cadets need to be managing their program.  If they aren't, they aren't meeting expectations.  The fact is that if you don't believe that cadet is capable of the leadership expectations, you should not promote them.  There is no excuse for not showing their ability, either.  Even in a small squadron, there are activities outside the squadron.  Cadets are required to attend outside activities to promote, otherwise they shouldn't get past C/CMSgt.

If the senior  leadership isn't allowing cadets to do this, they are crippling them.  That's on the senior members.

[Eclipse]

If the senior  leadership isn't allowing cadets to do this, they are crippling them.  That's on the senior members.

I don't disagree, that doesn't change "required" vs. "desired".

The fact is, cadets are only "required" to attend one encampment as a student, complete 2 SDAs, and participate as a student in an RCLS (or ECI13) between
stripes and diamonds.

That's it.  No encampment staff, unit staff, major activity staff, CAC, whatever, nothing else.  Frankly this has been an issue IMHO since I did the math
on it years ago.  CAP invests a lot of time and effort into a cadet by the time they get to Phase IV, and while the expectation is, and should be, that the cadets
start giving back for all they have received, we can't force a cadet who is otherwise performing well pm academics and PT.

And that goes especially for struggling units where you might only have a handful of active cadets at all.

I've said before that encampments or equivalent activities, including staff service or similar, should be required for every milestone, especially Spaatz,
the 1-hit wonder cadets that are never seen again outside their units after they go to encampment that first year are a disappointment, if not outright
failure of the program.

But as it exists today, they are more common then you might realize.

[lordmonar]

Again....my original statement stands.....a High School Graduate has shown a 12+ year commitment to education....does not make him eligible to teach middle school.

As I have mentioned - by Phase IV of the cadet program, the cadet has more training and experience than required for a Tech Rating in CP.

Comparing high school with the cadet program is so off base I ignored it at first, but here it is again.  Do you understand the point of Phase III and Phase IV?

Cadets are never responsible for themselves or others - we may give them some delegation, they are never ultimately responsible for anything, regardless of age, as long as it says
"cadet" on their ID card.

Then you are crippling your cadets' development.  By the way, most seniors involved in CP aren't ultimately responsible either, but I guess because that doesn't matter.

Irrelevant - SM PD and Cadet PD are different focus and intent.

The material is there.  The Tech Rating for CP still doesn't cover as much as they've already proven.

Yes Capt I do understand the point of all phases of CAP cadet program.
And I say again....in CAP terms....just because you have completed all or parts of the Cadet Program does not make you automatically qualified to manage said program......even at a tech rating.

As for crippling cadet's development.....again sorry got to disagree with you here.  CAP regs clearly indicate that cadets of any age and rank are not to be trusted.   Even if they are fully qualified Mission Pilots.....ergo....no matter how capable or mature or trained a cadet may be in absolute terms....in CAP terms he/she has never been completely on his own.

Again there material is not there.....no cadet has ever.......ever, been responsible for test security......if he has....then there has been a failure in test security.   Only the TCO or appointed Test administrators can handle tests.   

Second.....the Cadet Programs tech rating requires.....requires outside of the weekly meeting staff involvement......which is NOT.....I SAY AGAIN....not a requirement for any cadet phase.   It may be implied....but it is not required.....ergo it is possible for a cadet to get Spaatz and not have done the requirement's for the tech rating.

My basic point still stands......we do not award a advanced PD for anyone who may be well qualified to do it......but we do give it to cadets who have completed Level IV.   Not necessary, not fair and I don't like it. 

As I said before.......If during the cadet career they were required to "earn the CP tech rating" then I'm on board.  If you want to waive the TIG requirements for the tech rating........I'm on board....but just saying....oh your a Spaatz, here's your Capt and your Tech rating.....that I don't agree with .

[Майор Хаткевич]

MSgt, after four years in college, I was appointed as an assistant testing officer. That said, I'm really the cadet testing officer.  It took me one week turnaround time read the reg, and I was fully aware of all my responsibilities by the following meeting. The difference between me and a SMWOG? I knew what our tests look like, how to fill out the scantron, and how to identify and give the correct test between L21C and L2L. Oh, I could also administer and score a drill test on my own, finding that my standards were (aligned with the test) higher, and that in the past a cadet SME would do it, and the SMs would accept the cadet's grading. That is fully allowed, except again, I found them to be too forgiving.

As to being tech level capable, I have no doubts that if necessary, I could take on a CDC role. If I don't know something, I know where to look it up. I can't say the same about other off the street members with a tech rating.

[lordmonar]

MSgt, after four years in college, I was appointed as an assistant testing officer. That said, I'm really the cadet testing officer.  It took me one week turnaround time read the reg, and I was fully aware of all my responsibilities by the following meeting. The difference between me and a SMWOG? I knew what our tests look like, how to fill out the scantron, and how to identify and give the correct test between L21C and L2L. Oh, I could also administer and score a drill test on my own, finding that my standards were (aligned with the test) higher, and that in the past a cadet SME would do it, and the SMs would accept the cadet's grading. That is fully allowed, except again, I found them to be too forgiving.

As to being tech level capable, I have no doubts that if necessary, I could take on a CDC role. If I don't know something, I know where to look it up. I can't say the same about other off the street members with a tech rating.

And I can't say the same thing about other Spaatz cadets........hence the importance of actually TESTING and CHECKING for required knowledge before automatically giving a tech rating.  And that's my point.  I know that phase IV cadets should be able to do the job.  I have even conceded that they should be given a pass on the TIG requirements.   I am only saying it should not be automatic.  The squadron PD officer through his CP mentors should be checking that the required knowledge in the CAPP is actually possessed by the member.  That the member actually has done outside activities.

Also....there is not "use before" date on this.  In theory a Spaatz cadet from the 70's could join today, be a Capt and a tech rated CP guy........52-16 has been rewritten three times since then.....and there was not CPP back then.  But he is just entitled to the rank and the rating as a 18 year old earning Spaatz tomorrow.

Then you have the possibility that the Spaatz is not really Spaatz.   You all remember that 13 year old Spaatz from a few years ago?  Remember how just about everyone was up in arms about how he did not deserve it?  But again.....it is non-discretionary...he gets his tech rating and his capt bars.

My basic premise still applies.....just because you passed the program does not make you qualified to teach the program.

[Майор Хаткевич]

MSgt, I'm an Earhart cadet.

While I agree that not ALL cadets will be able to perform, I just don't see how anyone who spent years in CAP, reached into Phase IV, and moved onto the SM side would NOT rate a tech rating. You seem to be focusing on what the Tech Rating requires of SMs. But think of it as the equivalency we give RM NCOs for their special training in the CAP PD. This is the same thing. What you had to do was much more "involved" than what the CAP PD calls for. Well looking at CP officers with Tech Ratings (and sometimes even reaching into the Senior ratings!), MOST of them simply do not know as much as a former cadet. I'm not talking Left Face from Right Face, I'm talking about execution. By Senior rating most CP Officers KNOW what the program is, but they often lack the "hands on" experience and "working" knowledge of how to implement it. Are there "vacuum" cadets who have never laid their eyes on anyone outside of their small, rural, 3 cadet unit? Perhaps. But that's still not the majority of Phase IV cadets.

Quite honestly, the BEST part about a Cadet turning SM is that we've made mistakes. I personally missed opportunities, made mistakes, didn't follow through on plans, etc. As a SM, I can help the current cadets avoid my pitfalls (or at least give them a leg up, the choice is still theirs), or if needed, I can step in as a SM and help them accomplish a project I may have contemplated/failed at as a cadet.

You've mentioned that you had years upon years of working with youth as a leader. But to use the cringe-inducing analogy, would the AF allow a Marine/Sailor/Soldier NCO to swap branches and become a TI? Of course not, not right away. But what about the SrA who gets promoted to SSgt and gets assigned to Lackland? Whole different story.

Going from cadet to SM is something like that. I got a lot of benefits out of CAP, and now I want to give back. Part of it is probably seeing the cadets grow and develop, and getting a "warm and fuzzy" because it brings back my own memories. I can still remember earning my first stripe. I hope I never forget. Seeing and helping new cadets get there, helps to ensure that I won't anytime soon.

[lordmonar]

Well you should not have gone there.....as a 22 year MSgt I would rate all of 2nd Lt.....geee thanks.....and I still had to do my six months staff time to get my tech rating.

Even someone with years in the military has to go to DI/MTI school before he can be a TI does not matter if he is a Brand new SrA or a CMSgt, no one gets a free pass.....even ex-MTIs have to go back to school if they have been out of the AFSC for awhile.

I do not discount cadet experience.......in fact I have stated several times...I got no problem with giving them credit for time served.   I simply have a problem with AUTOMATICALLY awarding the tech rating.

Cross over to gray, rejoin, get your Level I training done....do your Form 2a for your advanced promotion......sit down with your Cadet Programs Officer and/or your PDO....go through the required knowledge, show that you really know what you need to know, show where you have done the service requirements, make sure that they demonstrate that you really can do what a tech rated CP guys should be able to do.  Take the on line, open book test.....and presto blam-o you are a tech rated CP guy.

[Elioron]

Well you should not have gone there.....as a 22 year MSgt I would rate all of 2nd Lt.....geee thanks.....and I still had to do my six months staff time to get my tech rating.

Even someone with years in the military has to go to DI/MTI school before he can be a TI does not matter if he is a Brand new SrA or a CMSgt, no one gets a free pass.....even ex-MTIs have to go back to school if they have been out of the AFSC for awhile.

I do not discount cadet experience.......in fact I have stated several times...I got no problem with giving them credit for time served.   I simply have a problem with AUTOMATICALLY awarding the tech rating.

Cross over to gray, rejoin, get your Level I training done....do your Form 2a for your advanced promotion......sit down with your Cadet Programs Officer and/or your PDO....go through the required knowledge, show that you really know what you need to know, show where you have done the service requirements, make sure that they demonstrate that you really can do what a tech rated CP guys should be able to do.  Take the on line, open book test.....and presto blam-o you are a tech rated CP guy.

I'd love to watch the interaction of a 19-year-old SM with a tech rating trying to mentor a 21-year-old Spaatz on the cadet program.  Laughable!!  Of course the Spaatz probably has plenty of experience dealing with SMs that don't have a clue trying to tell them what to do.

[lordmonar]

And there you are showing your contempt for all senior members.

[RogueLeader]

And there you are showing your contempt for all senior members.

No more than I've seen many RM NCO's deal with fresh butterbars.  And it's not aimed at ALL Senior members but those who act like they know more than a cadet that has lived the program vs brand new to it.

[Storm Chaser]

As I said before.......If during the cadet career they were required to "earn the CP tech rating" then I'm on board.  If you want to waive the TIG requirements for the tech rating........I'm on board....but just saying....oh your a Spaatz, here's your Capt and your Tech rating.....that I don't agree with .

Former Spaatz cadets actually get a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs.

[Elioron]

And there you are showing your contempt for all senior members.

lol  My self deprecation is legendary!

I think my acknowledgement rates far less than your contempt of cadets.  I've only been in for three years and I've met such SMs.  Luckily they are a minority and are, generally, quickly corrected.  Kind of like Phase IV cadets that don't have more capability than a Tech rating in CP.

[lordmonar]

As I said before.......If during the cadet career they were required to "earn the CP tech rating" then I'm on board.  If you want to waive the TIG requirements for the tech rating........I'm on board....but just saying....oh your a Spaatz, here's your Capt and your Tech rating.....that I don't agree with .

Former Spaatz cadets actually get a Senior Rating in Cadet Programs.

  Yeah.....don't get me started on that. 

[lordmonar]

And there you are showing your contempt for all senior members.

No more than I've seen many RM NCO's deal with fresh butterbars.  And it's not aimed at ALL Senior members but those who act like they know more than a cadet that has lived the program vs brand new to it.

Yes I agree...that we are talking about extremes some in this debate.   There is always the prototypical "Know it all cadet" who has nothing but contempt for all those fat and lazy seniors.  They have been there and done that and don't understand why they still have to pay their dues when they convert from Cadet to Senior.

And then they wonder why those of use who had to "come up through the ranks" have heart burn about these "kids" who just skip right in ahead of us.

And it is a problem to a point.......so much to a point where the typical advice to most cadets is to take a break from cadet programs when they cross over to the Gray.   

But my point still stands....I got nothing against giving them credit for time served......but I still think that they need to prove that they possess the required knowledge before they are given the rating.

[Storm Chaser]

If/when a MSgt receives a line commission in the Air Force, he/she gets credit for time in service, but still gets commissioned as a 2d Lt, regardless of experience. And while he/she may wear any badge earned, he/she must go back to an appropriate school before assuming his/her new duties, again regardless of previous experience.

The reason for that is simple; the roles of NCOs and officers are different, just like the roles of CAP cadets and senior members are also different.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And there you are showing your contempt for all senior members.

No more than I've seen many RM NCO's deal with fresh butterbars.  And it's not aimed at ALL Senior members but those who act like they know more than a cadet that has lived the program vs brand new to it.

Yes I agree...that we are talking about extremes some in this debate.   There is always the prototypical "Know it all cadet" who has nothing but contempt for all those fat and lazy seniors.  They have been there and done that and don't understand why they still have to pay their dues when they convert from Cadet to Senior.

And then they wonder why those of use who had to "come up through the ranks" have heart burn about these "kids" who just skip right in ahead of us.

And it is a problem to a point.......so much to a point where the typical advice to most cadets is to take a break from cadet programs when they cross over to the Gray.   

But my point still stands....I got nothing against giving them credit for time served......but I still think that they need to prove that they possess the required knowledge before they are given the rating.

I'll agree to that when we stop giving CAP equivalency to Military Schools.

[lordmonar]

I would agree with that as well.

[Elioron]

If/when a MSgt receives a line commission in the Air Force, he/she gets credit for time in service, but still gets commissioned as a 2d Lt, regardless of experience. And while he/she may wear any badge earned, he/she must go back to an appropriate school before assuming his/her new duties, again regardless of previous experience.

The reason for that is simple; the roles of NCOs and officers are different, just like the roles of CAP cadets and senior members are also different.

It's not an equivalent analogy - not unless you're talking about cadet NCOs, which we're not.  Unlike NCO training, Phase IV of the cadet program is about management.  The Tech Rating for CP doesn't even go that far, that's more what the Senior Rating deals with.  The Tech rating is about oversight, which the Cadet Program is about from Phase III.

More is expected of a Phase IV cadet than is expected of a Tech in CP.  Whether or not those in charge hold their people to those expectations seems to be in question, but the expectations should be there.  The consensus of those here is that it's better to treat any former cadet as if they were part of a failed program than to acknowledge the experience in the very program you don't want them to oversee.

It seems to me like there's a chip on some shoulders.  Do you know why we have such a dismal retention rate for older, higher achieving cadets?  It's because they are commonly treated like they're nothing.  "It's nice that you worked harder in CAP than most Level II SMs, but welcome to being a wog."

It would be nice to have someone who works CP at the national level weigh in, but they're probably dealing with real issues.  We get what we get.

[abdsp51]

Most of the CAP PD has been a regurgatation of ALS/NCOA/SNCOA.