Cadets in Assistant Duty Assignments

[SAR Officer]

I would like to ask a question on the Assistant Duty Assignments for Cadets?

Recently it has been brought to my attention that we can assign Cadets using either a CAPF 2a (not needed at wing level) Just for squadron Archives, or a  P.A., or list it on a CAPF 66 is what I heard from some other squadrons.....Has anyone else heard this?

[lordmonar]

Cadets my serve as assitants.

You should use a 2a for duty assignment (if you want to bother).

[SAR Officer]

Thank You Sir,


I planned on doing the 2a and probably list them on the F66....Just for Administration archives so when I do the POA for 2012 I can show the 2 cadets that want to do it being involved and assisting my AEO throughout AE activities....

[Woodsy]

Just a friendly warning/word of advice here...

If dealing with a composite squadron, make sure the senior member filling the "primary" roll is willing and/or able to have a cadet as an assistant.  Many composite squadrons are in reality a seperate senior and cadet squadron rolled into one, with senior members who have no interest in the cadet program and vise versa...  You can't force a senior member interested only in ES to mentor a cadet,  It just doesn't work 

That said, if a cadet wants to learn a certain position, let him handle that for the cadet side of the house, but don't make it the senior member's problem.


Personally, as a squadron and group PAO, I have very little interest in the cadet programs.  That said, I do my best to see that they get recognized, cover cadet events, and have no problem mentoring cadets in the position as much as I can. However, I have seen this arrangement turn ugly more than once, so just handle it delicately. 

[SAR Officer]

You are right on that.....One thing that really got this going was communications between Seniors and Cadets....A year ago we started having staff meetings every other meeting night and by including the Cadet staff in one meeting a month has allowed a better communications forum for the unit.....


It took time to get the bugs worked out.....But I guess we are a lucky unit because my officers see the programs as joint when it involves Cadets....Grant it we still have to keep the programs in check when it only involves Seniors....But we discussed it and the Senior counterparts are wanting to mentor the Cadets for those positions and we ran trials over the last few months and now we are making those positions for the Cadets available for a full test run as Assistant Cadet Staff.....I will post how it goes in the next few weeks after the holiday's of course.....

[EMT-83]

It's all well and good that cadets serve as assistants, but take care that their primary responsibility is to be a cadet and progress in the cadet program.

I've seen two cadets that were exposed to the dark side as assistants, and then wanted nothing to do with the cadet program. After hanging out with the donut-eaters, they found certain elements of the cadet program to be silly and had no interest.

[Extremepredjudice]

Not to hijack this thread, but can  cadets serve as assistant ES officer, if there isn't a SM as the ES officer?

I used ES as an example, obviously it could be anything.

I assume you could, but I dunno. I guess it depends on the position...

[lordmonar]

Not to hijack this thread, but can  cadets serve as assistant ES officer, if there isn't a SM as the ES officer?

I used ES as an example, obviously it could be anything.

I assume you could, but I dunno. I guess it depends on the position...

No.

an assistantnt....is an assistant to someone.......no bending the rules.
Point is....staff officer has authority over his area of specialisation....and cadets (except in a very few instances) can't have authority over senior members.

a) It is outside the scope of their program.
b) It screws up the chain of command too much.
c) If you don't have enought senior members to do the job you need to recruit more or scale back your operations.

[Ed Bos]

Not to be contentious, but I would be comfortable assigning a cadet as an Assistant Logistics Officer under a Squadron Deputy Commander or Squadron Commander if there was no primary Logistics Officer from the Senior Member side assigned.

[Extremepredjudice]

And what about something more "technical" (meaning it requires a level of knowledge that not everyone may possess [not everyone knows how to build websites, or how to provide tech support]) like IT? Or logistics officer? or [insert specialty here]?

I don't think the DCC or CC will be of much help in those cases.

[Ed Bos]

And what about something more "technical" (meaning it requires a level of knowledge that not everyone may possess [not everyone knows how to build websites, or how to provide tech support]) like IT? Or logistics officer? or [insert specialty here]?

I don't think the DCC or CC will be of much help in those cases.

I believe you're under the assumption that a supervisor needs to know everything about the technical aspects of the job someone is doing. It is often useful, but that's not necessarily the case.

You may often work for individuals who may not understand the subtleties or nuances of a project or program that you're working on. In that case part of your job is to respectfully translate the details into laymen's terms, and ensure that your boss gives you a clear picture of what they expect so that you can fulfill their directions.

I have had that experience personally, where I have tasked a subordinate to accomplish the task of turning in vehicles to the DRMO program, while I know nothing about the paperwork or details of how to accomplish that task. I clearly defined what I wanted done, and this person accomplished the task, while I still don't know HOW it was done.

Don't dismiss the job of your leadership just because they don't understand how to code a website. They will still be the person who tells you whether or not you did it right, even if they don't know how you did it. Just work hard to communicate clearly so that there are no surprises at the end of the day.

[Spaceman3750]

In the case of many duty assignments (we'll keep using LG as an example), someone has to be doing it. Whether it's the CC or SM Bagodoughnuts it's getting done somehow, so there's always going to be someone that the cadet can be paired with.

[Extremepredjudice]

And what about something more "technical" (meaning it requires a level of knowledge that not everyone may possess [not everyone knows how to build websites, or how to provide tech support]) like IT? Or logistics officer? or [insert specialty here]?

I don't think the DCC or CC will be of much help in those cases.

I believe you're under the assumption that a supervisor needs to know everything about the technical aspects of the job someone is doing. It is often useful, but that's not necessarily the case.

You may often work for individuals who may not understand the subtleties or nuances of a project or program that you're working on. In that case part of your job is to respectfully translate the details into laymen's terms, and ensure that your boss gives you a clear picture of what they expect so that you can fulfill their directions.

I have had that experience personally, where I have tasked a subordinate to accomplish the task of turning in vehicles to the DRMO program, while I know nothing about the paperwork or details of how to accomplish that task. I clearly defined what I wanted done, and this person accomplished the task, while I still don't know HOW it was done.

Don't dismiss the job of your leadership just because they don't understand how to code a website. They will still be the person who tells you whether or not you did it right, even if they don't know how you did it. Just work hard to communicate clearly so that there are no surprises at the end of the day.

Leadership isn't really the main topic of what we are discussing. We are talking about mentoring (which does have a bit of leadership).

You can't mentor someone if you don't know how to do the task! I can't waltz in and correct someone doing physics, if I don't know how. Even if I am their tutor, mentor, or whatever. Knowledge of the tasks are the key to mentoring someone.

I'd be willing to guess the average CC/DCC doesn't know enough about some things to provide a viable mentor.

Supervisor and mentor are two different animals. One means you are the boss of someone. You have hire/fire powers. The other you are teaching, if you don't like what they are doing, you correct it.  Supervisors don't need to know the technical details of stuff. A mentor does, a mentor is there to teach you a better way of doing things.

Layman terms are great. They are useful for communicating with someone that isn't proficient in whatever. You shouldn't need to use layman terms with your supervisor. He should teach you the technical mumbo-jumbo.

On a different note, the regs mention "cadet X officer" not "Assistant X officer."
So is the cadet's title C/X officer or Assistant X officer?

[Ed Bos]

Leadership isn't really the main topic of what we are discussing. We are talking about mentoring (which does have a bit of leadership).

You can't mentor someone if you don't know how to do the task! I can't waltz in and correct someone doing physics, if I don't know how. Even if I am their tutor, mentor, or whatever. Knowledge of the tasks are the key to mentoring someone.

I'd be willing to guess the average CC/DCC doesn't know enough about some things to provide a viable mentor.

Supervisor and mentor are two different animals. One means you are the boss of someone. You have hire/fire powers. The other you are teaching, if you don't like what they are doing, you correct it.  Supervisors don't need to know the technical details of stuff. A mentor does, a mentor is there to teach you a better way of doing things.

Layman terms are great. They are useful for communicating with someone that isn't proficient in whatever. You shouldn't need to use layman terms with your supervisor. He should teach you the technical mumbo-jumbo.

On a different note, the regs mention "cadet X officer" not "Assistant X officer."
So is the cadet's title C/X officer or Assistant X officer?

Leadership is EXACTLY what we are talking about. This isn't the right forum to go into great lengths of detail, but I am willing to describe what I'm talking about more if you care to PM me. I recommend that you bring this thread to your DCC or Leadership Officer and ask for their input, so they can better explain in person.

And as far as being taught the, "technical mumbo-jumbo," is concerned: if you're asking to be taught how to do web design at CAP, that's not really what the cadet program is for.

Go with the regs for the office titles. You're not wrong if you choose to follow them. I was using the term interchangeably, because I was thinking of non-primary-but-still-assigned functionaries in broader terms. The way I'm thinking about it, you can also have a new Senior Member assigned as an "assistant recruiting officer," when no primary recruiting officer is assigned if they're not ready to do all the paperwork without oversight.

[Ed Bos]

In the case of many duty assignments (we'll keep using LG as an example), someone has to be doing it. Whether it's the CC or SM Bagodoughnuts it's getting done somehow, so there's always going to be someone that the cadet can be paired with.

Glad to know I'm not alone on this train of  thought!

[Eclipse]

On a different note, the regs mention "cadet X officer" not "Assistant X officer."So is the cadet's title C/X officer or Assistant X officer?

Unless you are serving in one of the few recently instituted cadet staff positions such as Cadet Safety Officer or Cadet IT Officer,
you would be listed as "Assistant To The X Officer", not "Assistant X Officer".

The nuance here is that while cadets are allowed to provide assistance to basically anyone on staff, they are never posted as staffer of record
with regard to senior positions.  When someone is the "Deputy" or "Assistant" "X", the expectation is that person can generally act with all or most of the authority and responsibility delegated to that position, especially in the absence of the primary.

Not so with cadets. They can only be posted as "assistant to" "x", which is a helper assigned to a specific area, but generally has little or no authority in the area they are providing assistance.

An excellent example would be Logistics, which is primarily charged with taking personal responsibility for any equipment issued to, or otherwise acquired by, the squadron.  Cadets are not allowed to have CAP property issued to them, so they can't be responsible for it, nor can they issue it to anyone else, or conduct an ORMS inventory.  They could, of course, help physically count equipment, and perform other tasks in direct assistance to the Logistics Officer(s).

It should also be noted that the regulatory emphasis is on cadets working within the cadet program, not other administrative or operational jobs.
This is by design as that is where their focus should be.  As mentioned earlier, a big risk in getting younger cadets involved with senior staff duties is that they decide they like sitting on that side of the table and lose interest in their program.  I've sure we've all seen a few times when cadets involved too high on the senior side have disciplinary issues or attempt to assume roles that are inappropriate.

4-1. Cadet Organization and Staff. The unit commander assigns ranking cadets to the unit's cadet staff so they may put into practice the abstract leadership concepts they study in their textbooks. As discussed in paragraph 1-2, the opportunity to lead and challenge are key traits of cadet life. Commanders should encourage the maximum use of their cadets both in planning and conducting the Cadet Program. See CAPP 52-15 for guidance on cadet staff term limits, cadet staff selection procedures, and how the role of seniors changes as cadets advance.

a. Design Considerations. There is no standard organizational structure for a cadet staff. Each unit should design a staff structure that is appropriate for its mix of cadets, be the unit big or small, top-heavy or bottom heavy. See CAPP 52-15 for suggested cadet staff organizational structures, duty assignments appropriate for each cadet grade, and detailed position descriptions.

b. Advanced Positions. Cadets may not serve in any of the senior member staff positions listed in CAPR 20-1, Organization of Civil Air Patrol, but may serve as assistants to those officers. Phase I and II cadets who serve as staff assistants may not use that service to fulfill staff duty analysis requirements.

[Spaceman3750]

On a different note, the regs mention "cadet X officer" not "Assistant X officer."So is the cadet's title C/X officer or Assistant X officer?

Unless you are serving in one of the few recently instituted cadet staff positions such as Cadet Safety Officer or Cadet IT Officer,
you would be listed as "Assistant To The X Officer", not "Assistant X Officer".

The nuance here is that while cadets are allowed to provide assistance to basically anyone on staff, they are never posted as staffer of record
with regard to senior positions.  When someone is the "Deputy" or "Assistant" "X", the expectation is that person can generally act with all or most of the authority and responsibility delegated to that position, especially in the absence of the primary.

Not so with cadets. They can only be posted as "assistant to" "x", which is a helper assigned to a specific area, but generally has little or no authority in the area they are providing assistance.

An excellent example would be Logistics, which is primarily charged with taking personal responsibility for any equipment issued to, or otherwise acquired by, the squadron.  Cadets are not allowed to have CAP property issued to them, so they can't be responsible for it, nor can they issue it to anyone else, or conduct an ORMS inventory.  They could, of course, help physically count equipment, and perform other tasks in direct assistance to the Logistics Officer(s).

It should also be noted that the regulatory emphasis is on cadets working within the cadet program, not other administrative or operational jobs.
This is by design as that is where their focus should be.  As mentioned earlier, a big risk in getting younger cadets involved with senior staff duties is that they decide they like sitting on that side of the table and lose interest in their program.  I've sure we've all seen a few times when cadets involved too high on the senior side have disciplinary issues or attempt to assume roles that are inappropriate.

4-1. Cadet Organization and Staff. The unit commander assigns ranking cadets to the unit's cadet staff so they may put into practice the abstract leadership concepts they study in their textbooks. As discussed in paragraph 1-2, the opportunity to lead and challenge are key traits of cadet life. Commanders should encourage the maximum use of their cadets both in planning and conducting the Cadet Program. See CAPP 52-15 for guidance on cadet staff term limits, cadet staff selection procedures, and how the role of seniors changes as cadets advance.

a. Design Considerations. There is no standard organizational structure for a cadet staff. Each unit should design a staff structure that is appropriate for its mix of cadets, be the unit big or small, top-heavy or bottom heavy. See CAPP 52-15 for suggested cadet staff organizational structures, duty assignments appropriate for each cadet grade, and detailed position descriptions.

b. Advanced Positions. Cadets may not serve in any of the senior member staff positions listed in CAPR 20-1, Organization of Civil Air Patrol, but may serve as assistants to those officers. Phase I and II cadets who serve as staff assistants may not use that service to fulfill staff duty analysis requirements.

The last time I issued equipment in ORMS it stated that if the member being issued equipment is under 18, it will spit out an agreement which must be signed by the cadet's parents and uploaded. Leading me to believe that you CAN issue equipment to cadets.

[Eclipse]

The last time I issued equipment in ORMS it stated that if the member being issued equipment is under 18, it will spit out an agreement which must be signed by the cadet's parents and uploaded. Leading me to believe that you CAN issue equipment to cadets.

I haven't ever tried to do it based on our wing's policies making it verboten. 

I can't see too many parents signing for a $2500 radio or $1000 notebook computer, etc., nor is it a good idea to be
expecting a non-member to be responsible for CAP property.

c. Since minors (individuals under the age of 18 years) cannot legally obligate themselves,
when non-expendable property is to be issued to an individual under the age of 18, ORMS will
generate a property receipt to be co-signed by the individual's parent(s) or legal guardian(s).  When
the signed property receipt is received and scanned into ORMS, the property issue transaction will be
completed.  Following these guidelines, individuals under the age of 18 years are not permitted to
hold logistics, supply, transportation or communications duty positions that include ORMS
permissions to transfer, issue or assign property

[Extremepredjudice]

With all due respect Major,

Leadership is EXACTLY what we are talking about.

I agree.

I recommend that you bring this thread to your DCC or Leadership Officer and ask for their input, so they can better explain in person.

Blank stares, and a "now what?"

And as far as being taught the, "technical mumbo-jumbo," is concerned: if you're asking to be taught how to do web design at CAP, that's not really what the cadet program is for.

I had no intention or thought of being taught web design by someone in CAP. I already can design on a professional level (other than images).
Here, sir, this is a project I worked on briefly before they decided to fire everyone[including volunteers] that mattered, and hire 10 marketing guys (Titan Gaming can't run a business to save their lives). http://beta.xfire.com/

During this time I answered technical support for Xfire Inc. (I had 23k posts, in the tech forum alone) (when owned by MTV/Viacom). After which they made me head of their beta testing team, and I formed an alpha testing team. After which I was allowed to work with their staff, and program on their IM client. I fixed glitches and added 3rd party IM client support

I can program in C++, C, Python, (hate this language, it is pointless) JavaScript, and C#. I can design websites in CSS, HTML, PHP, MySQL, and good ol' Java.

Would you agree that I know a little more than the average person?

Let's try creative role-playing. Say you and I are in the same squadron. I am assigned C/ITO. You are my mentor (cause for the sake of this you are DCC or CC.).

Oh noes, I ran into a problem designing the squadron's website. I come to you as my mentor, and ask "what is wrong with this code?"

<div id="content">
   <?php
   // Query database for Page Name text
   $dbQueryString = "SELECT FROM Example_Page WHERE content_id='1'";
   
   // Run query
   $dbQuery = $dbConn->query($dbQueryString);
   
   // If error
   if((int) $dbConn->affected_rows === -1) {
      exit("Database query error.");
   }
   
   // Fetch results
   $dbQueryResults = $dbQuery->fetch_assoc();
   $introPageBody = stripslashes($dbQueryResults['content_text']);
   ?>

One last question, and I would appreciate an answer: How can you mentor someone in something you have no idea how to do?
If I can't tie my shoe, I can't mentor someone on how to tie their shoe.

[lordmonar]

And what about something more "technical" (meaning it requires a level of knowledge that not everyone may possess [not everyone knows how to build websites, or how to provide tech support]) like IT? Or logistics officer? or [insert specialty here]?

I don't think the DCC or CC will be of much help in those cases.

Cadet can be assigned the task of making and updateing the web page...or inventoring the supply room with out being assigned as assitant anything.

The assingment to a duty position...is not just giveing the task to someone...but giving them the authority (read as power) to get the job done.
It does no one any good to assign responsiblity with out also giveing them the authority to do the job.....and cadets by definition (except in a few ES cases) cannot hold that authority.