Married Cadets

[capme]

Hey, what's the big deal with cadets being married?  Why does CAPR 35-3 list marriage as a cause for termination of cadet membership?

[MIKE]

Because if you are 18+ and married, you have to become an SM.

[NCRblues]

because they said so....

[capme]

I know "because THEY said so", but what is the reasoning behind the rule?

[BillB]

The rule against married cadets is at least 60 yars old. It was made during a time when a 20 year old was still considered a minor. But many 18-21 year olds were getting married and the inability of turning Senior member at 18 meant that the 20 year old that got married would have to be terminated. Over the years no effort was made to change the regulation even when the age of majority dropped to 18.

[PA Guy]

Because a cadet that age who marries has made a decision to move on with their life.  They should be focusing their energies on building and being able to support their marriage not worrying about who is going to teach a D&C class or if they are going to pass their next achievement.  My cadet career came to a screaming halt due to marriage.  It's a good rule.

Also, the potential for CPPT issues are many. 

[Eclipse]

Because a cadet that age who marries has made a decision to move on with their life.  They should be focusing their energies on building and being able to support their marriage not worrying about who is going to teach a D&C class or if they are going to pass their next achievement.  My cadet career came to a screaming halt due to marriage.  It's a good rule.

Also, the potential for CPPT issues are many.

Agree on all, and further to this, the majority of cadets getting married are likely due to making poor life choices and an unplanned pregnancy, which is no example to be setting or allowing in CAP, which by nature is supposed to be helping
cadets avoid these mistakes.

[RiverAux]

So the dumb 19 year old that gets pregnant or got someone else pregnant and makes the decision to get married should become a senior member and thereby no longer be a role model for cadets?  Not sure I get that logic. 

Also, the potential for CPPT issues are many. 

What are those?  How is the married 19 year old cadet more a "threat" than a single 19 year old cadet?  How are they less of a threat if they are senior members?  If anything, an unmarried 19 year old cadet is much more likely to potentially start a relationship with an underage cadet than a married 19-year old. 

[capme]

I agree.  I do not get the 'logic' here.

[RiverAux]

To be fair, theres no real logic in regards to any of CAP's regulations regarding when over-18 years can be cadets and when they must be seniors. 

[MIKE]

Unless you subscribe to the train of thought that adult decisions/actions have adult consequences.

[capme]

So we are to subscribe to the train of thought that an 18-20 year old person is only an adult once they are married?  That doesn't make sense either.

Seems like thin reasoning.

[JeffDG]

Somewhat unrelated, but when I was 17, I applied for the Royal Military College in Canada...essentially the equivalent of West Point for Canada.

You were required to be unmarried, and promise to remain unmarried throughout your tenure at RMC.  Violation would lead to your immediate termination and forfeiture of your commission.

Do the military academies here have similar rules for cadets?

[DakRadz]

Somewhat unrelated, but when I was 17, I applied for the Royal Military College in Canada...essentially the equivalent of West Point for Canada.

You were required to be unmarried, and promise to remain unmarried throughout your tenure at RMC.  Violation would lead to your immediate termination and forfeiture of your commission.

Do the military academies here have similar rules for cadets?

Yes sir, absolutely. I believe prior enlisted are given slightly more relaxed standards in this regard.
You can also not have been or be pregnant, nor father a child. Once again, I believe slightly different for prior enlisted.
I've been applying for 3 service academies and it is even ROTC scholarships, so I have to read this often.
Back to my lane.

[JeffDG]

Good luck!

[RiverAux]

A service academy that has extremely stingent rules regarding off-campus contact for significant periods of time may have legitimate reasons to worry that a married cadet might be pretty seriously distressed by the situation and not perform as well as they might otherwise.  But, then again that might be said for anyone thats married in the military.  In either case, a service academy cadet program is not really comparable to CAP's cadet program. 

I'm not really sure why I've been arguing the "pro-cadet" side on this and related issues since in general I believe the cadet program probably should end at 18 or high school graduation anyway which would make all these other issues moot.

[RADIOMAN015]

To be fair, theres no real logic in regards to any of CAP's regulations regarding when over-18 years can be cadets and when they must be seniors.

Realistically, the program needs to be reevaluated and ANY cadet who has not achieved senior NCO status by 18 years old, should not be able to stay as a cadet until 21 years old.   Also if they graduate from high school and don't enroll in any sort of higher education, also boot them out of cadet status. 

As far as married cadets -- don't think that happens very often -- the majority of these unplanned issues such as pregnancy, usually result in the taxpayer paying for everything.   Some like "the life" of free medical care, free housing, free food, and just never get out of that mode -- more "unplanned kids", poor parenting, eventually leading to kids joining gangs, resulting in more crime etc & the cycle goes, over & over, & over again.....

RM

[DakRadz]

To be fair, theres no real logic in regards to any of CAP's regulations regarding when over-18 years can be cadets and when they must be seniors.

Realistically, the program needs to be reevaluated and ANY cadet who has not achieved senior NCO status by 18 years old, should not be able to stay as a cadet until 21 years old.   Also if they graduate from high school and don't enroll in any sort of higher education, also boot them out of cadet status. 

RM

Hmm... I wouldn't be even be a Cadet SNCO yet if not for my JROTC. A C/TSgt, I think, due to a few setbacks that I managed to overcome. Of course, I still have a small window between now and my birthday, but others may not.

So say a cadet enlists in the Reserves, works another job diligently, is an outstanding cadet leader (say Mitchell or higher, still active in unit), and is either saving up for life, or studying up for college- boot them out? For example, doing Reserve enlisted time to better their chances for a Service Academy?
Ouch. I've thought about going this route before.



Now, if I ended up getting married- I hope people are aiming to hit me with the door on our way out.

[Flying Pig]

That would be great.  A female C/MSgt and her husband, C/LTC Smith attend encampment, or any other CAP activity together and  they want to sleep together, as they should if they are married.   To many issues CAP isnt equipped to deal with even for dealing with two cadets who may be completely squared away.  Regardless of how rare it may be.

Keep it the way it is. 

[RiverAux]

Do we regulate how married seniors sleep at CAP activities?  I seem to recall situations where married members were split up - men in one quarters, female in another, regardless of marriage status and it wasn't a big deal.  That being the case, I think 2 married cadets could deal with it as well. 

If the event's rules call for gender segration for everyone (which most do), then it isn't a factor.  And if it is some sort of road trip where CAP members are in motel rooms, who does it hurt if the married cadets share a room just like married seniors?  Those same 2 people could do the same exact thing as senior members, so whats the big deal?

[Eclipse]

They.

Are.

Cadets.

Therefore "children", "adolescents", or "students" (depending on your take of the word), and the majority of industrialized nations
still regard it to be wholly inappropriate for people who fit those descriptions to be married or parents (despite the best efforts of Maury Povich).

We may not be able to regulate outside behavior, but that doesn't mean we have to condone it by accommodating the very bad life choices we are trying to help our cadets avoid.

When you choose to have a child (including the very adult choice to engage in the behavior that produces children) or be married, you are overtly deciding that you no longer wish to be treated as a child yourself, including access to various opportunities open only to those who have chosen to remain as a child.

[RobertAmphibian]

When you choose to have a child (including the very adult choice to engage in the behavior that produces children) or be married, you are overtly deciding that you no longer wish to be treated as a child yourself, including access to various opportunities open only to those who have chosen to remain as a child.

I think that buying a vehicle, housing or holding a full time job are adult behaviors. Do you think any cadet who lives independently should be sent to SM status as well?

[DakRadz]

When you choose to have a child (including the very adult choice to engage in the behavior that produces children) or be married, you are overtly deciding that you no longer wish to be treated as a child yourself, including access to various opportunities open only to those who have chosen to remain as a child.

I think that buying a vehicle, housing or holding a full time job are adult behaviors. Do you think any cadet who lives independently should be sent to SM status as well?

I would say those are mature behaviors, rather. And anyone who is mature enough to have a child between 18-21 (or younger) is very well capable of becoming a SM without whining.

It's more perception than anything. As a cadet, adult behaviors (children, smoking, drinking, etc.) are a no-no because we are still in the ranks of the children/young adults.

As a SM, you are certainly viewed as an adult by cadets- and when/if I see a SM with a child (duh.....) or in public with a cigarette, I see it as an adult making an adult decision. If I saw a cadet of mine (legally, 18-19+ yrs) doing that... I would still be upset for any number of reasons.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Agree on all, and further to this, the majority of cadets getting married are likely due to making poor life choices and an unplanned pregnancy, which is no example to be setting or allowing in CAP, which by nature is supposed to be helping cadets avoid these mistakes.

I was engaged at 18 as a cadet. Now I'm 20, a SM and still engaged *we're waiting until a certain date/after college/health insurance issue*.

I honestly don't think it's an issue, as I doubt any of my fellow cadets even knew of the relationship. What is an engagement? A commitment to marry a person? To be exclusive? What about a relationship? A commitment to stay loyal to each other? With the potential to lead to an engagement? What's marriage? A commitment to stay loyal to each other, hopefully for the rest of your life? All three in my opinion are just different levels of commitment, with engagement/marriage being closer together than "just" a relationship. If you're mature to be in a relationship, you can be mature enough to deal with any level of commitment and keeping it out of your cadet life.

That would be great.  A female C/MSgt and her husband, C/LTC Smith attend encampment, or any other CAP activity together and  they want to sleep together, as they should if they are married.   To many issues CAP isnt equipped to deal with even for dealing with two cadets who may be completely squared away.  Regardless of how rare it may be.

Keep it the way it is. 

That would be great. A female Capt and her husband, LtCol Smith attend encampment, or anyother CAP activity together and  they want to sleep together, as theyshould if they are married.   To many issues CAP isnt equipped to dealwith even for dealing with two senior members who may be completely squaredaway.  Regardless of how common it may be.

Keep it the way it is. 

If I saw a cadet of mine (legally, 18-19+ yrs) doing that... I would still be upset for any number of reasons.

Why? If they are not in uniform/representing CAP, they are adults behaving like adults. Would it impact a younger cadet seeing them? Maybe. Just like it would impact them seeing their DCC or Unit Commander doing the same.

When you choose to have a child (including the very adult choice to engage in the behavior that produces children) or be married, you are overtly deciding that you no longer wish to be treated as a child yourself, including access to various opportunities open only to those who have chosen to remain as a child.

That's what happens when people get older. It's natural, it's recorded in history, and programed in genetics. Define "adult" behaviors. Is purchasing a $500 item an adult behavior? Paying for your own phone service? Car/Gas? What about moving out at 17/18?

[Eclipse]

^ Without going nuts on requoting.

A marriage is more than a "commitment", a marriage is a legally binding civil contract.

As to tobacco use, I could care less their age, since CAP says "cadets" are prohibited from use or possession.

[Stonewall]

It's all very simple.

Getting married at such a young age is a bad decision so we punish them by making them senior members.

I'd say if two CAP members were under 21 and choose to get married, they should be given a temporary leave of absence until they prove they can survive the 7 year itch before being allowed to work with cadets.  That's all we want to do is demonstrate to a cadet that it's a good idea to get married at such a young age.

[Майор Хаткевич]

^ Without going nuts on requoting.

A marriage is more than a "commitment", a marriage is a legally binding civil contract.

As to tobacco use, I could care less their age, since CAP says "cadets" are prohibited from use or possession.

1-3. Supervision & Cadet Protection Policies.
CAPR 52-16 1 OCTOBER 2006 7
h. Tobacco Products, Alcoholic Beverages & Illegal Drugs.
(1) CAP cadets, regardless of age, will not possess, chew, or consume tobacco products, nor will they possess or consume alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs, in any form, while participating in any CAP activity.

It's all very simple.

Getting married at such a young age is a bad decision so we punish them by making them senior members.

I'd say if two CAP members were under 21 and choose to get married,they should be given a temporary leave of absence until they prove theycan survive the 7 year itch before being allowed to work with cadets. That's all we want to do is demonstrate to a cadet that it's a goodidea to get married at such a young age.

Average Age at time of first marriage:
1950: Males 22.8/Females 20.3
2007: Males 27.7/Females 26.0

According to divorcerate.org, The majority of divorces happen in the groups of 20-24 and 25-29 (at least on the male side, but the majority of CAP members are male).

People get married later now, by a good 5-6 years on average, but seem to get divorced more often in that range.

[Flying Pig]

When you married its time to set your "cadet life" on the back burner.  I would never support having married cadets. Thats coming from a married guy.

[AirAux]

So, what happens if two same sex cadets over 18 decide to move in together as life partners, or married, depending on the state?  Same rules or different rules? 

[davidsinn]

So, what happens if two same sex cadets over 18 decide to move in together as life partners, or married, depending on the state?  Same rules or different rules?

Depends on if it's a legal marriage or not. The regs say married.

[MSG Mac]

People 18 and over are already legally adults with all the benefits, responsibilities, and consequences that come with adulthood. Since CAP allows these 18-20+365 day old adults to remain cadets until the day before their 21st birthday, they should be aware that there are some cases that require they transistion to Senior Member. For those who marry before they're 18, marriage makes them emancipated adults, with all those same responsibilities and consequences including subsequent transistion to SM.

[capme]

After just reading the whole thread "Married Cadets" the burning question I have is why allow 18-20 year old cadets in the first place?

At the age of 18 individuals are considered adults, they can purchase and use tobacco products, marry, enter the Armed Forces, enter into a legal-binding contract, etc.

If the rule concerning married cadets stems from adult actions = adult consequences, why allow cadets over the age of 18?

[Flying Pig]

I dont have a problem with cadets over 18.  Especially when you have a cadets in college or in ROTC and they are still contributing to the program, trying to finish up their Spaatz or something like that.  Now, if I had a 19-20 yr old cadet MSgt I would probably sit them down and have a long discussion with them.  In reality though, there are no 21 year old cadets because at age 20 and 364 days they become Senior Members.

What I do have an issue with, and this stems from the marriage thread, is cadets who are clearly taking the leap into adulthood, ie married and starting a family, joining active duty.  Cadets who enlist in the Reserves or the Guard I think still have a good place in the cadet program. But it can be odd to have a cadet who is over 18, in the military reserves, who is still treated like a minor at activities.  Even though you may have an AIr Force Reserve, A1C/ C/LTC who is 20 years old, they still cant actually be "responsible" for anything in CAP.  You could actually end up with a scenario where an 18 yr old FO who lives at home with mom and dad is in charge over a 21 yr old Air Guard Senior Airman/C/Capt who has already moved out and on his own.  Weird.  Oh stop the madness!

[BillB]

Why should a 18-20 year old cadet be barred from continuing in the cadet program just because they are legally adults? The answer is the old Officer Training Program of the 60's where on reaching the age of 18 the cadet could turn to the OTC program. The failure of the old program was two fild.\:
First it didn't allow the OTC member to continue in the cadet program to achieve the Spaatz.
Second it was voluntary so most cadets didn't go to OTC membership, rather they stayed cadets to continue on to the Spaatz.
If a new program which combined the advantages of both cadet and senior membership were "re-invented" which would allow OTC to continue cadet training, while at the same time taking the responsibilities of senior membership this would solve all problems of the 18-20 year old group. Such a program would me manditory where upon the 18th birthday the cadet transferred to OTC status. Allowing the OTC member to continue taking tests for achievements and milestones, and also training for senior member duties would provide a trained group upon their 21st birthday.

[capme]

Oh I totally disagree with this approach.  Part of the maturity process, transitioning from 'childhood" to 'adulthood', is making choices.  Giving the option to have the best of both worlds is not teaching our cadets to make choices.

[Cool Mace]

Why should a 18-20 year old cadet be barred from continuing in the cadet program just because they are legally adults? The answer is the old Officer Training Program of the 60's where on reaching the age of 18 the cadet could turn to the OTC program. The failure of the old program was two fild.\:
First it didn't allow the OTC member to continue in the cadet program to achieve the Spaatz.
Second it was voluntary so most cadets didn't go to OTC membership, rather they stayed cadets to continue on to the Spaatz.
If a new program which combined the advantages of both cadet and senior membership were "re-invented" which would allow OTC to continue cadet training, while at the same time taking the responsibilities of senior membership this would solve all problems of the 18-20 year old group. Such a program would me manditory where upon the 18th birthday the cadet transferred to OTC status. Allowing the OTC member to continue taking tests for achievements and milestones, and also training for senior member duties would provide a trained group upon their 21st birthday.

I've talked to a few people about this(cadet and SM) who think this would be the way to go. After you turn 18 you transfer to SM but can stay a "cadet" to get your Spaatz untill you're 21. When you're at an activity you are treated as a SM but still hold whatever cadet rank you are. Cuts out the legal issue there.

Why go this way? CPPT. There is no diference between a cadet who is 18, 19 or 20 years old and a SM who is 40. When it comes down to it, the cadet has the same rights(outside of CAP anyway) as the SM does. Every cadet I've talked to over 18 thinks this would be the smartest thing to do.

Just my 2 cents.

[BillB]

Capt. Gaddis
When you get down to it, what choices do CAP cadets have? The program as written doesn't allow the cadet many choices. By instituting an OTC program, the OTC members as just as many choices as either a cadet or senior member would have. The OTC program is a transition program for 18-20 year olds to senior membership. Would would still allow continuing to complete achievemnts and milestones, while allowing the OTC member to choice professional development tracks and training. If anything the OTC member has more choices that they would as a cadet only.

[capme]

Yes Bill, I understand what you are saying.  I am saying choose - either be a cadet and work toward milestones and achievements (Spaatz) or become a SM/Flight Officer and work on professional development training and specialty track progression.  One or the other.  Why add more gray area (confusion open to individual CC interpretation) into the already convoluted mix?

[Stonewall]

I was 18 my senior year of high school.  Between 11th and 12th I entered into the Delayed Entry Program (DEP) for the Army.  So for my entire senior year I had already sworn into the military (I know, I wasn't "in" the Army) and was 18 years old.  I would have been highly pissed had I been forced out of the cadet program and not allowed to achieve the Mitchell.

[MIKE]

Merged. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

When you married its time to set your "cadet life" on the back burner.  I would never support having married cadets. Thats coming from a married guy.

Would a Private Pilot set his flying hobby on the back burner? Perhaps. Is he required to? No. I don't necessary think that being a cadet when married is a priority, but again, I think a blanket ban, without giving that choice is lame.

[lordmonar]

This all goes back to the same argument about over 18 cadets in the first place.

Bottom line.....if you do adult things...you are an adult and can't be a cadet.

The simple fix is to make it a hard line for all members over 18 to become seniors.

The problem is not whether the cadet has the time to do his hobby and the rest of his life....but whether we want an "adult" in the cadet program.

If we leave the option for being married....then we need to leave the option opened for joining active duty.

If we leave that option open...then why not leave the option for anyone over the age of 18 and less then 21 the option to join as a cadet.

It just messes up the whole system.

YMMV.

[ZigZag911]

As usual, Maj. Harris makes a lot of sense!

The age of legal majority in this country is 18; I believe CAP is unique in allowing members over 18 to continue to pursue its program designed for adolescent members.

[Flying Pig]

When you married its time to set your "cadet life" on the back burner.  I would never support having married cadets. Thats coming from a married guy.

Would a Private Pilot set his flying hobby on the back burner? Perhaps. Is he required to? No. I don't necessary think that being a cadet when married is a priority, but again, I think a blanket ban, without giving that choice is lame.

Terrible analogy.

[jeders]

When you married its time to set your "cadet life" on the back burner.  I would never support having married cadets. Thats coming from a married guy.

Would a Private Pilot set his flying hobby on the back burner? Perhaps. Is he required to? No. I don't necessary think that being a cadet when married is a priority, but again, I think a blanket ban, without giving that choice is lame.

Terrible analogy.

Gotta agree with FP, apples and sprockets.

There simply are no more adult choices that deciding to start a family. Whether it's getting married or getting pregnant, when these things happen you have to reevaluate what's important. CAP simply makes that evaluation a little bit easier. This rule isn't broken, so lets not worry about fixing it.

[Patterson]

Ya....the rule makes no sense.  Most of the reasoning from many of you in support of the rule also make no sense.

I could possibly see where a 19 year old CADET who (legally is an adult) gets married and is forced to become a Senior if he or she has a KID of their own.  Other than that, the 19 year old married kid is no different than the 19 year old kid with a girlfriend who he lives with and treats as his wife even though they have not been "married".

Marriage is way overrated!  All that $$$ for a few hours of ceremony and years of regret is slowly becoming not the "norm".

How many marriages end in divorce??  Single Parent Families out there?? 

I would very much like to see the percentage of the "two former CAP Cadets getting married and staying together" group compared to the rest of our Country!!

Honestly it is an arbitrary rule that is a throw back to a less politically correct society.

[Flying Pig]

Im all about a less politically correct society.

[Майор Хаткевич]

When you married its time to set your "cadet life" on the back burner.  I would never support having married cadets. Thats coming from a married guy.

Would a Private Pilot set his flying hobby on the back burner? Perhaps. Is he required to? No. I don't necessary think that being a cadet when married is a priority, but again, I think a blanket ban, without giving that choice is lame.

Terrible analogy.

Gotta agree with FP, apples and sprockets.

There simply are no more adult choices that deciding to start a family. Whether it's getting married or getting pregnant, when these things happen you have to reevaluate what's important. CAP simply makes that evaluation a little bit easier. This rule isn't broken, so lets not worry about fixing it.

How So? A pilot getting married isn't making the same choice as a cadet? Being a cadet costs significantly less, and is also less dangerous.

Like it or not, CAP IS a Hobby. It's just like the after school program or a club. You make a choice to give your time. Why don't we boot the 21 year old SM for getting married? Or why is it more acceptable than the 20 year old? And as compared, how is that different from the 20 year who lives with his girlfriend, or is engaged, for two years?

[lordmonar]

How So? A pilot getting married isn't making the same choice as a cadet? Being a cadet costs significantly less, and is also less dangerous.

Like it or not, CAP IS a Hobby. It's just like the after school program or a club. You make a choice to give your time. Why don't we boot the 21 year old SM for getting married? Or why is it more acceptable than the 20 year old? And as compared, how is that different from the 20 year who lives with his girlfriend, or is engaged, for two years?

On one level CAP is just a hobby.

But from a CP point of view.....we don't want to add the baggage a married cadet will bring to the program.
We already have enough problems with the over 18 cadets butting heads with the rules (that is they are treated like kids but are legal adults).  An over 18 married cadet!?!  Just too much drama.

Like I said before.....and continue to say....cadets of any age are more or less "kids" in regards to the the regulations and policies of CAP.  When you start acting like an adult then we make you move over to the "adult" program.

Our rules are confusing and inconsistent......I will be the first to accept that.....but adding to the confusion is not the way to go.

I have always been and continue to advocate a hard date age of 18 for the cadet programs.  That would take care of 99.99999999% of the "problems" with the regulations.

On the other hand.......leaving things the way they are......is okay too. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm not advocating changing the rules, just having a discussion on the issue. The number of cadets over 18 is a tiny portion of all cadets. (I think I was one of either 100+ or 300+ cadets over 20). The portion of over 18 cadets who get married is even less so. But beyond the discussion, how do we find out about the marriage? Obviously the cadet should the chain of command know, but if they don't what's a way to find out?

[Flying Pig]

Its not an issue until your the Squadron Commander of that one cadet who decides to get married.  May work out well, may not.  Id rather just not deal with married cadets as a Sq.CC or DCC.

[Майор Хаткевич]

This goes back to Maturity.

I wouldn't want to deal with an over 18 immature cadet period. Hopefully, if a cadet gets married, they are mature enough. And again, the 2-3 cases per year that this might happen, I'm thinking those cadets roll over/leave the program anyway.