Should we lobby for a device on this ribbon to prevent confusion?

Major Carrales · July 08, 2007, 06:59:29 AM

Here's the deal...

The ribbon of the Air Force Commendation Medal:

The ribbon on the CAP National Commander's Unit Citation...

The Texas Wing was awarded this ribbon for its work during Katrina and Rita and I have since added it to my rack. However, while I was hanging my service coat I noticed this ribbon looked a bit like that USAF one?

Now, I am like 85% sure the colors were chosen to honor/reflect the USAF award...however, it is pretty close to the USAF one. Should CAP put a device on it to distinguish it further or is it good as is?

mikeylikey · July 08, 2007, 07:46:05 AM

Interesting. They look close, and from say 3 feet away may be difficult to tell apart. I am curious though......the whole Texas wing received that? Even members who did not participate? Not bashing anything, but I would have thought they would award that award very selectively to units who sent the most members out to help during the disaster.

It looks good otherwise....congrats, it gives you one more sell when a non CAP member asks "what ribbon that is"

Pumbaa · July 08, 2007, 09:04:38 AM

I think it is different enough.

I agree that the color and the layout is to give honor, and also show relationship to the A.F.

They are both commendation so I can see the relationship.

Would say a little propeller on it be cool? Sure.. but not really needed.

Kerrbie · July 08, 2007, 10:14:48 AM

I also agree. I believe it is fine the way it is. As everyone as already said they look similar to show their relationship, but you can tell the two apart. the USAF one has three middle stripes and the CAP one only has the one big one. and I also agree with Lt FF about a little propeller would look cool. But hes also right that it's not needed.

James Shaw · July 08, 2007, 11:53:18 AM

This specific ribbon also represents:

The United States Navy Expeditionary Service Medal awarded starting Feb 12, 1874
(Still issued)

The United States Army Mexican Service Medal awarded starting April 12, 1911
(No longer issued)

I think it is great the way it is. There is enough difference in the two.

AlphaSigOU · July 08, 2007, 01:19:18 PM

Riddle me this...

How come the regular Unit Citation award ribbon is green, but the streamer for the flag is red?

[scratches head]

I'm one of the unwashed masses who earned the NCUC simply by being a member during the award period. I had just rejoined CAP and was working on my ES quals, but it was too late to actually get my boots in the ground for Katrina/Rita. Doesn't make me a wannabe; I'm proud to have been of any assistance to the squadron and to Texas Wing.

I swear... every time I sneeze I get another piece o' bling for CAP!

mikeylikey · July 08, 2007, 04:10:05 PM

Quote from: caphistorian on July 08, 2007, 11:53:18 AM
This specific ribbon also represents:

The United States Navy Expeditionary Service Medal awarded starting Feb 12, 1874
(Still issued)

The United States Army Mexican Service Medal awarded starting April 12, 1911
(No longer issued)

I think it is great the way it is. There is enough difference in the two.

Whooa now.....if the cap ribbon looks like the ribbon that goes with those military decorations, the CAP ribbon needs to go. How hard is it to look in a picture book that shows all US ribbons and design one that looks different.

Another option, use the "H" identifier in the middle of the ribbon for Hurricane. Then we can also add other letters to denote other reasons the award was given. Say, "M" for Mexican Border patrol, "C" for Canadian border patrol. ETC......

Major Carrales · July 08, 2007, 05:59:30 PM

General George Patton seems to share an award with me. The assistant principal of the school where we are doing CAP as an afterschool program will notice this right away.

However, the ribbon in this reproduction looked to be off set by "green."

Still, I don't think Vanguard would do something like pass off another ribbon as a CAP one.

Flying Pig · July 08, 2007, 06:58:55 PM

So, has this really been a problem? I think the key is that it isn't the same ribbon. If someone questions you, you point out the difference, and tell them its not a military medal, its a CAP medal, end of story.

Major Carrales · July 08, 2007, 08:37:48 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on July 08, 2007, 06:58:55 PM
So, has this really been a problem? I think the key is that it isn't the same ribbon. If someone questions you, you point out the difference, and tell them its not a military medal, its a CAP medal, end of story.

No, not a big difference...but I don't like the idea of getting credit or acknowledgement for awards I do not have.

This was actually the combination of a good look at the ribbon and a night of reading about "fake veterans and heroes." I am very quick to point out that I am not a veteran of the US Armed Forces and other misconceptions. Those are teachable moments about CAP.

That is also way, in the original question, I asked it it was really an issue at all.

The thing is that it is the highest award I have in CAP, and it is known that active duty earned awards and citations go above CAP awards et al. Thus, someday a US Navy vet is gonna mistake it for what it is not. Maybe I just want to avoid the embarrassment.

BillB · July 08, 2007, 08:46:09 PM

Don't all ribbons and medals have to be approved by the Office of Heraldry somewhere in DoD? I know the early CAP ribbons and medals were at least up through 1990

Major Carrales · July 08, 2007, 08:48:49 PM

Quote from: BillB on July 08, 2007, 08:46:09 PM
Don't all ribbons and medals have to be approved by the Office of Heraldry somewhere in DoD? I know the early CAP ribbons and medals were at least up through 1990

That is true, if this was approved by them this whole thread is a non-issue.

mikeylikey · July 08, 2007, 11:20:47 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 08, 2007, 08:37:48 PM
..........a night of reading about "fake veterans and heroes." I am very quick to point out that I am not a veteran of the US Armed Forces and other misconceptions. Those are teachable moments about CAP.

I always enjoy reading about those fakes who impersonate Generals or Admirals in the Army Times. There was just an article about a "Marine Corps Colonel" who spoke at commencements and actually gave the Oath of Office to some ROTC Cadets. Needless to say it was big news when those Officers had to retake their Oath. The man was sentenced to 6 months probation and a $1,000 fine!

RiverAux · July 08, 2007, 11:48:51 PM

There are only so many variatins of colors and lines that can be put on a ribbon, so unless its blue with 5 stars on it, being somewhat close to an ribbon issued by one of the military services is okay with me. Note "somewhat close" not identical....

Major Carrales · July 08, 2007, 11:54:04 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on July 08, 2007, 11:48:51 PM
There are only so many variatins of colors and lines that can be put on a ribbon, so unless its blue with 5 stars on it, being somewhat close to an ribbon issued by one of the military services is okay with me. Note "somewhat close" not identical....

If you say so, then I'm fine with it.

BillB · July 09, 2007, 12:06:47 AM

The idea of a propeller or letters on the ribbon seems OK.
For hurricanes you could get an H
For off dury Rescue you could get an R
For outstanding Performance a P
For outstancing Community Service a C
For outstanding aeronautical effort an A
So a member could wear in order of precedence the ribbon that said C R A P

James Shaw · July 09, 2007, 11:48:29 AM

The ribbon was approved by the Air Force before it was issued. Gen. Pineda tries to make sure he involves them in all of these types of decisions. Alot more goes into these than most people think. From the outside in it seems that it is easy just to come up with something and get it done. This is not so. Its actually about a 1 year process to do that and 90% of them get turned down. I have people send me ideas and suggestions for new badges and awards quite a bit. Most are redundant and are not needed.

I did get one that I thought was a great idea. It was a CAP ribbon that showed the person had been in the service, was active duty and the such. It would replace all military awards and be worn as a CAP ribbon. Unfortunately it was also turned down.

The design process for these usually goes like this:

1) Someone initiates the award (usually has to be region level request)
2) Research is done by the Historical people about the specific subject. We reference heraldic military info from various sources.
3) We have about 12 people who submit ideas and suggestions. We discuss changes and the significance of their design. We combine elements and change alot in the process. The final design is presented to the initiator.
4) They make suggestions and we try to accomodate as much as possible.
5) Final result is presented to the Uniform Board.
6) The design is voted on by the National Board.
7) It is either approved and goes into production or contract mode or it is tabled and tried again later.

I have designed 5 myself and had 3 of those denied. The other two have been approved by the board and are going to be manufactured sooner or later. I am helping with a new possible design now.

O-Rex · July 09, 2007, 12:20:41 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 08, 2007, 05:59:30 PM

General George Patton seems to share an award with me. The assistant principal of the school where we are doing CAP as an afterschool program will notice this right away.

However, the ribbon in this reproduction looked to be off set by "green."

Still, I don't think Vanguard would do something like pass off another ribbon as a CAP one.

Ely,

Judging from the pictures, if you participate in IACE, you'll share TWO ribbons with Patton.

I hear that Raven-haired beauties dig ribbons. . . .

Sgt. Savage · July 09, 2007, 04:29:51 PM

What's confusing? They're different. It's not important that the award is easily distinguised at a glance. Anyone who's been AD in the army can attest to the fact that AAM and JSAM look alot alike at a glance. Same with the DODSM and DSSM. Many ribbons look alike and can easily be mistaken for other awards. What's important is that the enjoy unique design and are awarded when appropriate to recognize achievement or service.

gallagheria · July 09, 2007, 04:59:00 PM

Yeah, if you look at all the JROTC (Army, Air Force, Navy, Maince Corps, and Coast Guard) programs, SROTC programs, veterans' organizations, state National Guard awards, SDF's, CAP, federal components of the Armed Forces, various Uniformed Services not in Armed Forces, federal civilian awards, and who knows how many other groups, there are likely to be some near look-a-likes. And this is just ribbons.

I see no problem.