Boonies anyone?

[Stonewall]

I mean I understand that the covers are forbidden to us, but are there cadets and officers that are so thick that they cannot comprehend and comply with a direct order?

Hahahaha..    

[DeputyDog]

So I understand Mama Blue not wanting to see us in boonies. I read that 5x5. But isnt it possible to say to cadets and officers "Boonies are a field cover ONLY. You may wear them for SARs and SARexs  in non-urban settings only. You will not wear that cover in sight of the public, under any circumstances at any time. Does everyone comprehend that?"  I mean I understand that the covers are forbidden to us, but are there cadets and officers that are so thick that they cannot comprehend and comply with a direct order?

As you may have ascertained from the other members who replied, CAP has a problem with policing its own uniform wear. As of right now the boonie hats are not authorized, but they are still worn (against regulations).

So would they comply with a direct order on that? No. From my own observation, CAP does not have a culture in which it is encouraged to correct others on uniform wear. RiverAux related a story once in which a senior member was 2b'd for attempting to correct a senior member from another unit on uniform wear.

Every SLS I teach at there is at least one person in a flightsuit (status, baby), or someone wearing the uniform grossly (double meaning) out of regulation. Do I try to correct them? Yes. Are they hostile to me for the rest of the course? Oh yes. Do they change? No. And yes, I am very nice about it and I do it in private.

It's not that they are too thick to comprehend a direct order about the wear of the boonie hat. It's that some members do not care what the regulations say. The attitude is that they are volunteers, and the Uniform Nazis (like me) need to lighten up.

The problem is that I don't see them as volunteers. I see them as unpaid professionals. Wearing the uniform correctly is an outward appearance of an individual's and a unit's professionalism.

[SARMedTech]

Here's my thing and it may get me flamed but last time I checked the first amendment was still in force:

CAP is a para-military organization. As such, it has a rank (grade) and command structure. Why is it not as simple as giving an order to remove the improper cover or correct the aforementioned uniform violations or face a formal "education" about both the structure of command and uniform regulations.

Now, as a newbie, I dont know everything. But my suspicion is that if someone is about to do something or experience something that is going to cause themselves or others to be harmed or die, one "urges" them to immediately stand down from said behavior, regardless of the "equal or high" rank concept. However, if an officer with a grade higher than my own and more seniority comes over and tells me privately and in a dignified manner that I am wearing the uniform of the Civil Air Patrol incorrectly, my only reaction would be to thank that officer for spotting and correcting my error, counseling me on the appropriate correction and moving on. Maybe Im old fashioned but I still think that as "unpaid professionals" in our orgranization a silver oak-leaf trumps railroad tracks and one does what an ranking officer says. Am I really the only one that feels this way? Theres a reason for this structure, I believe that rank matters, especially when the person who holds that rank has the experience and seniority to back it up. I dont quake in my boots at the sign of a ranking officer, but I do stand when one enters and departs a room, I never forget to address him/her as sir/ma'am and I may be a dweeb for doing so, but I salute CAP officers senior to me. Its a little think called respect. Most of the people that trump me have been around long enough to either have earned that respect or be given the benefit of assuming they have. And even if that officer gained his rank by dubious means (none of my business in the situations I am describing), by arm still goes parallel to the deck and my elbow is still at a forty five degree angle until my gesture of respect is returned or that officer leaves my sight. Is this just my newbie's enthusiasm or is it how it should be done?

[RogueLeader]

Absolutely right.  Same for me, even if i don't like the officer, doesn't matter.  Do it or leave.  It's called common courtesy.

[Eclipse]

Here's my thing and it may get me flamed but last time I checked the first amendment was still in force:

CAP is a para-military organization. As such, it has a rank (grade) and command structure. Why is it not as simple as giving an order to remove the improper cover or correct the aforementioned uniform violations or face a formal "education" about both the structure of command and uniform regulations.

It is that simple.

What's not so simple is the follow-up conversation(s) when the member says "no".  Way too many commanders are not willing to risk "upsetting people".

Which, in many cases, is why CAP is in the straits its in today.

[pixelwonk]

Absolutely right.  Same for me, even if i don't like the officer, doesn't matter.  Do it or leave.  It's called common courtesy.

Actually, it's an uncommon courtesy which much of CAP just doesn't get the hang of.
It's a failure of CAP to not instill followership principles organization-wide like it does for cadets just entering the program.

[Dragoon]

Here's my thing and it may get me flamed but last time I checked the first amendment was still in force:

CAP is a para-military organization. As such, it has a rank (grade) and command structure. Why is it not as simple as giving an order to remove the improper cover or correct the aforementioned uniform violations or face a formal "education" about both the structure of command and uniform regulations.

Now, as a newbie, I dont know everything. But my suspicion is that if someone is about to do something or experience something that is going to cause themselves or others to be harmed or die, one "urges" them to immediately stand down from said behavior, regardless of the "equal or high" rank concept. However, if an officer with a grade higher than my own and more seniority comes over and tells me privately and in a dignified manner that I am wearing the uniform of the Civil Air Patrol incorrectly, my only reaction would be to thank that officer for spotting and correcting my error, counseling me on the appropriate correction and moving on. Maybe Im old fashioned but I still think that as "unpaid professionals" in our orgranization a silver oak-leaf trumps railroad tracks and one does what an ranking officer says. Am I really the only one that feels this way? Theres a reason for this structure, I believe that rank matters, especially when the person who holds that rank has the experience and seniority to back it up. I dont quake in my boots at the sign of a ranking officer, but I do stand when one enters and departs a room, I never forget to address him/her as sir/ma'am and I may be a dweeb for doing so, but I salute CAP officers senior to me. Its a little think called respect. Most of the people that trump me have been around long enough to either have earned that respect or be given the benefit of assuming they have. And even if that officer gained his rank by dubious means (none of my business in the situations I am describing), by arm still goes parallel to the deck and my elbow is still at a forty five degree angle until my gesture of respect is returned or that officer leaves my sight. Is this just my newbie's enthusiasm or is it how it should be done?

You are under the assumption that grade in CAP designates authority.  It doesn't.

The regs only require members to obey their chain of command.  By regs, you cannot be disciplined for ignoring the orders of a senior officer who isn't your commander (as long as you are polite).

It's good that you personally hold yourself to a higher, more military standard.  But the prevailing  culture of CAP flows from the regs.  And the regs make it clear that grade doesn't matter - you can ignore it.

One advantage the real military has over us is that every officer has the authority to correct problems, and the responsiblity to do so.  So there are more "eyes' scrutinized every action, and finding/correcting any issues.  The most obvious area for this is uniforms, but it applies to everything including safety, property accountability, maintenance, caring for troops, etc.  More folks keeping an eye on things can make a organization better.

We could run a CAP that way, but it would require a major change in the regs.  We'd need to limit grade to those who could handle it, give them the authority to correct problems and then hold them accountable for doing so.

No small job.

[LtCol White]

Here's my thing and it may get me flamed but last time I checked the first amendment was still in force:

CAP is a para-military organization. As such, it has a rank (grade) and command structure. Why is it not as simple as giving an order to remove the improper cover or correct the aforementioned uniform violations or face a formal "education" about both the structure of command and uniform regulations.

Now, as a newbie, I dont know everything. But my suspicion is that if someone is about to do something or experience something that is going to cause themselves or others to be harmed or die, one "urges" them to immediately stand down from said behavior, regardless of the "equal or high" rank concept. However, if an officer with a grade higher than my own and more seniority comes over and tells me privately and in a dignified manner that I am wearing the uniform of the Civil Air Patrol incorrectly, my only reaction would be to thank that officer for spotting and correcting my error, counseling me on the appropriate correction and moving on. Maybe Im old fashioned but I still think that as "unpaid professionals" in our orgranization a silver oak-leaf trumps railroad tracks and one does what an ranking officer says. Am I really the only one that feels this way? Theres a reason for this structure, I believe that rank matters, especially when the person who holds that rank has the experience and seniority to back it up. I dont quake in my boots at the sign of a ranking officer, but I do stand when one enters and departs a room, I never forget to address him/her as sir/ma'am and I may be a dweeb for doing so, but I salute CAP officers senior to me. Its a little think called respect. Most of the people that trump me have been around long enough to either have earned that respect or be given the benefit of assuming they have. And even if that officer gained his rank by dubious means (none of my business in the situations I am describing), by arm still goes parallel to the deck and my elbow is still at a forty five degree angle until my gesture of respect is returned or that officer leaves my sight. Is this just my newbie's enthusiasm or is it how it should be done?

You are under the assumption that grade in CAP designates authority.  It doesn't.

The regs only require members to obey their chain of command.  By regs, you cannot be disciplined for ignoring the orders of a senior officer who isn't your commander (as long as you are polite).

It's good that you personally hold yourself to a higher, more military standard.  But the prevailing  culture of CAP flows from the regs.  And the regs make it clear that grade doesn't matter - you can ignore it.

One advantage the real military has over us is that every officer has the authority to correct problems, and the responsiblity to do so.  So there are more "eyes' scrutinized every action, and finding/correcting any issues.  The most obvious area for this is uniforms, but it applies to everything including safety, property accountability, maintenance, caring for troops, etc.  More folks keeping an eye on things can make a organization better.

We could run a CAP that way, but it would require a major change in the regs.  We'd need to limit grade to those who could handle it, give them the authority to correct problems and then hold them accountable for doing so.

No small job.

Regardless of rank, EVERY CAP member has the authority and responsibility to point out (correctly and politely) problems with uniform wear and appearnce and address them. This is exactly what USAF wants to see....US policing our own people on uniform wear and enforcing our own regulations.

[Pylon]

Quick example:

If you worked in the MX shop at your local ANG unit and showed up to work sporting a boonie cap (while the rest of your colleagues were wearing their wing baseball cap), they'd laugh at you.  Bare minimum, you'd feel like a tool.  Multiple people would say something.  The boonie cap would come off, despite any jusitifcation attempts by the PX ranger.  It'd be an embarassing experience.

The question is - why doesn't that happen in CAP?  The above situation involved no commander correcting or reprimanding this troop, nobody needed to probably even point out quotations from 36-2903.  A simple "Dude, what are you wearing?  Where's your regular cap?" would have probably been the comment of the day.  And it would have worked to solve the issue.

[LtCol White]

Quick example:

If you worked in the MX shop at your local ANG unit and showed up to work sporting a boonie cap (while the rest of your colleagues were wearing their wing baseball cap), they'd laugh at you.  Bare minimum, you'd feel like a tool.  Multiple people would say something.  The boonie cap would come off, despite any jusitifcation attempts by the PX ranger.  It'd be an embarassing experience.

The question is - why doesn't that happen in CAP?  The above situation involved no commander correcting or reprimanding this troop, nobody needed to probably even point out quotations from 36-2903.  A simple "Dude, what are you wearing?  Where's your regular cap?" would have probably been the comment of the day.  And it would have worked to solve the issue.

Should be a no-brainer

[Dragoon]

Regardless of rank, EVERY CAP member has the authority and responsibility to point out (correctly and politely) problems with uniform wear and appearnce and address them. This is exactly what USAF wants to see....US policing our own people on uniform wear and enforcing our own regulations.

Sadly, not true.

If it was our responsiblity to make corrections, somewhere in a reg we'd be told to do this.  We're not.

If it we had the authority to make corrections, the regs would punish those who ignored us.  They don't.

And that's my point - it's nice if we go the extra mile to make things right, but it's not required, which is too bad.  Relying on folks to do more than what is required is a recipe for disappointment.  We can get better, but it will require changes in the underlying structure of CAP - changes that make it easier to police our members.

Tags - MIKE

[Hawk200]

If it was our responsiblity to make corrections, somewhere in a reg we'd be told to do this.  We're not.

It may not say in the regs that we should maintain standards, but I don't know anyone that should let something go for the reason that "the regs don't say we should correct them." What's the point of a regulation if it's not enforced?

[ddelaney103]

If it was our responsiblity to make corrections, somewhere in a reg we'd be told to do this.  We're not.

It may not say in the regs that we should maintain standards, but I don't know anyone that should let something go for the reason that "the regs don't say we should correct them." What's the point of a regulation if it's not enforced?

What, indeed?

I worked the Fort McHenry Flag Day event and saw a SMWOG wearing white and grays and a AF GO-style flight cap.  I told him that 1) you don't wear a flight cap with the W&G's and 2) you never wear that sort of flight cap.  He told me he thought it looked better and walked away.

I could have tried to find his sqdn/gp/wing/region CC and reported him - maybe he would do something, maybe not.  I could have told the Project Officer - maybe he would have taken him off the project, but he couldn't stop him from wearing it as an audience member.  I went back to work, chalking it up as another classic "CAP moment."

I've said it before and I'll say it again: authority in CAP is based on position, not grade.  Even TP himself will have no power with those stars he wears once he steps down as CAP/CC.

Maybe we should change the song from "The C. A. P. is on the Go!" to "(You're Not the) Boss of Me!"

[Hawk200]

Maybe we should change the song from "The C. A. P. is on the Go!" to "(You're Not the) Boss of Me!"

OK, up to now, I've never been in the position of having to say it, you just ruined my record. You owe me a keyboard! 

And maybe some Windex for the monitor...

[SARMedTech]

Just out of curiosity, how does the apply to Cadets and Officers. Not only with things that are just non-regulation or contradict regulation, but also things that are unsafe. If I see someone doing something stupidly unsafe (as opposed to just stupid and notice I didnt say a Cadet doing something stupid because I have quickly learned they arent the only ones) if I am not the safety officer, is it basically just I can say something to them but if my position doesnt put be in a place to take corrective action, then weather I am a higher ranking officer or an officer talking to a cadet, it really doesnt matter? Which begs the question I and others have asked before, why not abolish grade altogether. We could just go to the Cadet system of pips and if you have more pips than I do (Im picturing a flight cap with about 16 pips on it) you can tell me to stand down from something I am doing. Ahhhh...here i go spitting in the wind again...

[Dragoon]

Maybe we should change the song from "The C. A. P. is on the Go!" to "(You're Not the) Boss of Me!"

OK, up to now, I've never been in the position of having to say it, you just ruined my record. You owe me a keyboard! 

And maybe some Windex for the monitor...

That's funny, but also kind of true.

Right now, the only guys in CAP who legally can enforce the regs are unit commanders.  And in CAP, often we operate apart from our unit commanders, so they aren't around to do much of anything.

IF we want more enforcement from our officers, we need clear guidance on who can tell who to do what.  And what happens if they are ignored.

The military got to its mindset of "officer has the job to correct errors" out of the fact that the Uniform Code of Military Justice empowers officers to do this - it's illegal to disobey an officer.  You can go to jail.

CAP doesn't have anything close.  The only guy a SM has to listen to is his commander. And if the commander isn't around.....

[Dragoon]

Just out of curiosity, how does the apply to Cadets and Officers. Not only with things that are just non-regulation or contradict regulation, but also things that are unsafe. If I see someone doing something stupidly unsafe (as opposed to just stupid and notice I didnt say a Cadet doing something stupid because I have quickly learned they arent the only ones) if I am not the safety officer, is it basically just I can say something to them but if my position doesnt put be in a place to take corrective action, then weather I am a higher ranking officer or an officer talking to a cadet, it really doesnt matter? Which begs the question I and others have asked before, why not abolish grade altogether. We could just go to the Cadet system of pips and if you have more pips than I do (Im picturing a flight cap with about 16 pips on it) you can tell me to stand down from something I am doing. Ahhhh...here i go spitting in the wind again...

Here's the skinny.  In CAP, we have two kinds of real punishments - dismissal and demotion.  (There are a few others, like grounding, but for this discussion we'll stick with the big two).

For seniors, you can be demoted or dismissed for "conduct unbecoming" your grade (whatever that means).  You can also be dismissed for "Failure to obey rules, regulations, and orders of higher authority."  That would mean your commander, or his commander, since rank in CAP does not denote authority.  You can also be dismissed for "Serious or willful violations of CAP regulations or directives."  Wearing a wrong hat probably doesn't meet the standard.

Remember, for both these actions there will be an appeal process, and often credible threats of a lawsuit.  Meaning unless you have a really well documented case against someone, you may not win the appeal.

Cadets are a bit simpler.  First, they can be kicked out simply for "misconduct."  Nice and vague, and pretty easy to prove.  Also, they can be demoted by the squadron commander up to three grades for basically anything (52-16 is nice an open on this one).  There is an appeal process to group, but since the criteria are so vague, it's more likely to fly.

But in all cases, it's a commander's action.

So, if you tell someone to do something, and they don't do it, you have to talk to their commander.  If he agrees that they should have done it, he can take action.  And it's easier to take action with a cadet.

But if the commander doesn't agree with you, you're pretty much S.O.L.

[SARMedTech]

Well, as someone as new as I am to CAP, Im not likely to go around barking orders or correcting anyone on anything. But again, I fail to see how demotion means anything if its position that means something and not grade. Why dont we just do away with grade and have a Commander and then everyone else. I mean thats basically where we are now anyway it would seem. Its sort of like the local fire volunteer fire departments where everyone is a Lieutenant and wears bars on his uniform. Its really meaningless, but there you have it. Im not trying to argue this one, Im just trying to get a hold on why we have rank if it means nothing except that I have suspicion that others have been right when they have said that if we did away all of the sudden with all of the grades and ribbons and clasps and citations and promotions, people would just stop showing up, because for whatever reason, alot of people are not willing to volunteer unless there is something in it for them, even if that something is, after all, a largely if not entirely meaningless "rank/grade/star/  bars/oak leaf." Personally, Im just happy to be able to have an organization like CAP that does what it does for communities, young people and the country. Maybe Ill be a Lt. for life, and thats pretty much ok with me. I guess when I asked how it applies to cadets and officers, i was thinking of a cadet doing something dumb that might involve some risk of danger or injury and whether an officer saying "stop that" carries any weight because they are an officer or only because they are twice (or more) the cadets age.

[ColonelJack]

Im not trying to argue this one, Im just trying to get a hold on why we have rank if it means nothing except that I have suspicion that others have been right when they have said that if we did away all of the sudden with all of the grades and ribbons and clasps and citations and promotions, people would just stop showing up, because for whatever reason, alot of people are not willing to volunteer unless there is something in it for them, even if that something is, after all, a largely if not entirely meaningless "rank/grade/star/  bars/oak leaf."

Bingo -- you've hit the nail on the head.  "Altruism" is something that really is defined on a personal, individual basis.  For many people (I won't say most, though I feel it's true), the military-like aspect of CAP is a major factor in their joining and remaining.  The military aspect centers around the uniforms, the formations, the bling, and the rank.

The rank is not necessarily meaningless, by the way.  Tell Generals Pineda or Courter that their rank means nothing.  Or any Region or Wing CC who's wearing eagles.  They will give you something of an earful, because their rank is indicative of their position in the organization.  Below them, yes ... rank holds little meaning, with one major exception:  It shows how far you as an individual have progressed in the training provided by the organization. 

Are there other ways this can be shown?  Of course.  But the military rank structure is there, so we use it.  Are there people who don't give a flying flip whether anyone else knows what they've accomplished?  Of course.  But they are not the majority.

Personally, Im just happy to be able to have an organization like CAP that does what it does for communities, young people and the country. Maybe Ill be a Lt. for life, and thats pretty much ok with me.

Now you're talking!     That's your reason for being here and that is just right.  For you.  But when people start saying "we should do away with rank," etc., they're heading toward the slippery slope of trying to make the entire organization fit their perspective instead of allowing all who serve with CAP to do so for their own reasons.

I guess when I asked how it applies to cadets and officers, i was thinking of a cadet doing something dumb that might involve some risk of danger or injury and whether an officer saying "stop that" carries any weight because they are an officer or only because they are twice (or more) the cadets age.

These days, my friend, most kids don't bother listening to anyone in positions of authority when they reach the age of CAP cadets.  (I'm a 7th grade history teacher.  I know this first-hand.)

Many moons ago, I was on a mission with cadets and officers from other units -- and my squadron commander.  A cadet from another unit was doing something he shouldn't have been, and my unit CC advised him to stop.  The kid pretty much ignored my boss until the CC said, "Son, can you read?"

The kid said, "Yes."

And my unit CC grabbed the right collar of his fatigues (that's how long ago this was!) and pointed to his captain's bars.  "Read these, then."

The kid looked, and realized my CC meant business.  He stopped his foolishness.

Hey, it worked for him.

Jack

[SARMedTech]

Colonel-

I agree with EVERYTHING you said in your reply to my post and do agree that there would be those at Wing level would give me an earful if I said their "birds" didnt mean anything and also that rank can be useful as a symbol of how much work an individual has put into their professional development. Certainly, I have respect for your grade and the experience of all kinds that has gone into you getting it. Thank you for your response and for being so clear and concise. If I manage to get above Lt grade, can I use the "read these" on a misbehaving cadet?