BDUs at school

[Daniel]

Yesterday was our cap meeting (second ive been too)
and I thought since it was BDU night Id wear mine to school

While the kids were bamboozaled at what the civil air partol was
It allowed me to educate them and my unit commander was rather excited when he heard i did it.

ever done something like that?

[RiverAux]

Uh, you should have gotten your commander's permission to do that.  Individual members don't get to decide when to wear their uniform to a non-CAP activity such as school. 

That being said, I'm in favor of CAP cadets wearing uniforms to school as part of an organized recruiting drive, but not on a regular basis. 

[Daniel]

we're low on members right now..

he invited us to do it

[winterg]

When I was a cadet (stone age) we routinely wore our uniforms to school on the day of the meeting and the earth didn't stop rotating.

It's a valuable recruiting tool.  I also agree with River that it needs the sanctioning of your CC.

[Hawk200]

Gee, where to start....

Yesterday was our cap meeting (second ive been too)

So you're brand new, and have barely earned a uniform. Have you even filled out an application?

and I thought since it was BDU night Id wear mine to school

For a meeting at what 6 or 7 PM, you put on a uniform at about 6 or 7 AM? There are rules on uniform wear that you really should learn before deciding to do your own thing.

One, BDU's aren't the appropriate uniform for public wear.

Two, there are specified times you wear a uniform.

While the kids were bamboozaled at what the civil air partol was
It allowed me to educate them

So you basically made yourself the center of attention.

and my unit commander was rather excited when he heard i did it.

I'd get pretty "excited" too. What you did was inappropriate.

ever done something like that?

Nope.

[RiverAux]

we're low on members right now..

he invited us to do it

Your original post made it sound like you did this on your own.  If your commander asked you ahead of time to do it, then I retract my comments. 

[Hawk200]

Your original post made it sound like you did this on your own.  If your commander asked you ahead of time to do it, then I retract my comments. 

I agree, River, his original post did sound like he did it on his own.

I also have a hard time believing that a commander asked a person on his first meeting to wear a uniform to school. The first post said that he wore his uniform to school before the second meeting he has ever been to.

This is looking an awful lot like a "loot at me" action, rather than an active recruiting event.

[Daniel]

that is my first meeting as a member, i was in it for 5 weeks last year but i had leg surgery. So I couldnt join mmy commander was quite pleased to see me two weeks ago as i helped try to get the squad started

[Always Ready]

I've never worn my CAP uniform to school, but I did have to wear the UOD (Uniform of the Day, for you civilian types) almost every day at college. Besides the fact I hated wearing Blues when it was 20-something degrees outside, wearing a uniform around campus was a great recruiting tool. However, the Blues were only good for one thing...attracting girls attention (not that I complained). BDUs and PTUs (Physical Training Uniforms) were great for recruiting purposes. People would constantly come up to me asking about AFROTC, or ROTC in general, and it ends up bringing quite a few people in. I don't know why people didn't ask any questions when I was in Blues *shrugs*

That being said, I am all for Cadets, especially the more experienced ones, wearing uniforms to school once a week.

[LtCol057]

I just hope that your uniform was strac, all patches in place, ironed, boots polished, etc.

In this area, most school systems are going to "uniform" dress code, so a CAP uniform may not meet their dress codes without prior approval. 

If I found out one of my new cadets wore a uniform, especially BDUs, to a non-CAP activity without prior approval from myself or my DCC and the school administration, I'd probably be having a serious heart-to- heart with him at the next meeting.

From your initial post, it reads like you took it upon yourself to wear BDUs to school.

[Maj Ballard]

Cadet, a little over a week ago, you were on here asking whether a C/AB can wear nametapes. You said you "didn't know what the books say" (regulations/manuals) and that your commander was going to order your nametapes as soon as you were "in the database."

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7236.0

I'm finding it a little hard to believe that in a week's time, you had a complete and squared away uniform (pressed, everything in the correct place), especially one fit for public recruiting purposes.

[SM-MADDOG]

The cadet did say that the commander said they could do it correct? If so then end of the discussion, the Commander is the boss of his/her squadron, not any of us. Dont jump on the cadet if you dont like this, call his or her commander.

Also please dont assume things, this cadet could have other experience besides CAP. When I came into Marine JROTC in high school I already knew some drill and marching, i was a police explorer. Just because someone is new to CAP dont mean they dont know anything.

It just strikes me a question of why some jump on someone else soon as they say something, dang dont we have a first amendment in this country any more lol? Oh wait, Obama is trying down play the first amendment so who knows lol.

Cadet, a little over a week ago, you were on here asking whether a C/AB can wear nametapes. You said you "didn't know what the books say" (regulations/manuals) and that your commander was going to order your nametapes as soon as you were "in the database."

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7236.0

I'm finding it a little hard to believe that in a week's time, you had a complete and squared away uniform (pressed, everything in the correct place), especially one fit for public recruiting purposes.

[Major Carrales]

Alright eveyone, stand down.

Just for your information, our Brahma Cadet Flight that meets at Memorial Middle School in Kingsville, Texas regularly wears their uniform to school.  Tuesday is blues and Thursday is BDUs.  They sometimes post the colors in the mornings and are visible.

We have after school meetings right afterschool as well as during "Lunch" and will again during the Advisory/Activity Period when Standardized Testing ends.

We have maintained a good relationship with the campus and the world did not end.  In fact, many times the opposite has occured.  The cadets have distinguished themselves as leaders and feel very connected through CAP.  

I d not believe in unauthorized disorganized uniform wear, but there are occasions where and when (spacetime?) it is appropriate.  

Also, just because a cadet is new doesn't mean they are some sort of "imbecile."  

This sort of thing is why I no longer recommend my members (cadet and senior)visit CAPTALK or CADETSTUFF.   There is no gentle guiding hand here from many of us, only the abrupt "slap in the face."  I have had several new people PM me about such feelings.

They came here for answers and, instead, got their zeal to serve tarnished.  People please, if you have such comments to make do it in PM.  The One-ups-manship is distasteful and very unbecoming.  

[RogueLeader]

The cadet did say that the commander said they could do it correct? If so then end of the discussion, the Commander is the boss of his/her squadron, not any of us. Dont jump on the cadet if you dont like this, call his or her commander.

Also please dont assume things, this cadet could have other experience besides CAP. When I came into Marine JROTC in high school I already knew some drill and marching, i was a police explorer. Just because someone is new to CAP dont mean they dont know anything.

Thank you, you beat me to it.

Same with you Major.

[♠SARKID♠]

g. If you wear your uniform to civilian social functions, you must wear the service dress uniform, or mess dress uniform, or uniform that parallels the civilian dress for the occasion, that is, coat and tie. You may not wear fatigues or flight suits to civilian functions.

Emphasis mine

[winterg]

There is no gentle guiding hand here from many of us, only the abrupt "slap in the face."

Amen

[Stonewall]

This is why I don't allow new cadets to wear their uniform until it is complete, i.e. the night they graduate T-Flight, which is their 9th meeting if all goes correctly.

They learn, in T-Flight, when it is and isn't appropriate to wear their uniforms.  With a structured T-Flight, this stuff doesn't happen.

But no one ever listens to me.

[RogueLeader]

g. If you wear your uniform to civilian social functions, you must wear the service dress uniform, or mess dress uniform, or uniform that parallels the civilian dress for the occasion, that is, coat and tie. You may not wear fatigues or flight suits to civilian functions.

Emphasis mine

I agree with the seniment of the publication, but at it is a publication, it has no regulatory power. In order for it to do so, it would have to say:  "Compliance with this publication is Mandatory."  Or words to that effect.

For the school situation, with the popper authorization, I really don't have that big a problem with it.

[JoeTomasone]

This is why I don't allow new cadets to wear their uniform until it is complete, i.e. the night they graduate T-Flight, which is their 9th meeting if all goes correctly.

They learn, in T-Flight, when it is and isn't appropriate to wear their uniforms.  With a structured T-Flight, this stuff doesn't happen.

But no one ever listens to me.

I wish they would.     It really gets me annoyed when someone has a uniform discrepancy (cutouts grossly off, say) and no one in the unit even bothers to help that member.   When I ask if the member is aware of the reg in question in 39-1, I usually get, "I haven't read it".   *headdesk*

Most Squadron Commanders that I've seen just don't care - and that's a shame.

[winterg]

I have actually seen cutouts stapled onto a uniform! lol  Or my favorite is glued.

That's usually when I bring my sewing machine to a meeting.

This is why I am I firm proponent of a structured indoctrination phase for cadets and seniors.  Many squadrons have implemented their own programs and are great.  But as an organization as a whole I believe we are seriously lacking on this issue.

Just becuase you can pay your dues, doesn't mean a person knows how to wear a uniform.  And as we all know, the person wearing the uniform reflects the organization as a whole.

As far as wearing a uniform to school on the day of the meeting, done correctly and with the blessing of the CC, I believe it is an invaluable recruiting tool.  BDU's or Blues.

[JoeTomasone]

I agree with the seniment of the publication, but at it is a publication, it has no regulatory power. In order for it to do so, it would have to say:  "Compliance with this publication is Mandatory."  Or words to that effect.

For the school situation, with the popper authorization, I really don't have that big a problem with it.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate here, what *is* the proper authorization IAW 39-1 (which IS mandatory)?

I don't see where school is a "normal CAP function" or part of the Cadet Program (unless, of course, it's a school squadron).    Those are the two main times that you CAN wear a uniform normally; the less normal circumstances (military facility, flying in CAP aircraft, etc) do not appear to apply either.

(For those who need a reference, CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1, pp. 6)

[JoeTomasone]

I have actually seen cutouts stapled onto a uniform! lol  Or my favorite is glued.

I've seen stapled nametapes...  I don't know what I'd do if I saw stapled cutouts.

This is why I am I firm proponent of a structured indoctrination phase for cadets and seniors.  Many squadrons have implemented their own programs and are great.  But as an organization as a whole I believe we are seriously lacking on this issue.

AMEN.   I'm an unashamed stickler for proper uniform wear; I find that most of our Seniors are poor role models for the Cadets they are purporting to be leading.   From my perspective, if you can't be bothered to read 39-1 and wear the uniform when appropriate and correctly, then what other compromises will you make in CAP?    Do you bring that attitude to the aircraft or a ground team?    In many things we do, attention to detail is very important, and I firmly believe that it is something that should be observed in every aspect of CAP.   

If it was, we wouldn't have nearly as many threads on CAPTALK, however.

[winterg]

I don't see where school is a "normal CAP function" or part of the Cadet Program (unless, of course, it's a school squadron).    Those are the two main times that you CAN wear a uniform normally; the less normal circumstances (military facility, flying in CAP aircraft, etc) do not appear to apply either.

Recruiting is a part of CAP.  We wear uniforms while recruiting.  ergo, cadets wearing uniforms to school, properly, for the purpose of visibility and recruiting, should not be a violation.  Others may disagree.

[Major Carrales]

Normal CAP function?  And what exactally would that constitute?

There has never been and never will be a "homogeneous" CAP.  There are vast differences in circumstance from just Unit to Unit much less across regional lines.  Some units "have it all" and some go without.  The nature of things i s "local" control.

I can bet that those of you calling for all sorts of regluations and policies don't plan to fund any of them.   CAP and JROTC/ROTC programs differ most in that those other programs are "funded."  They don't want for uniforms or have to scrounge around for a place to meet.  They have money to tailor and sew on patches, they have money for ribbons...we, on the other hand, have none of that.

Many units are barely making it to get their cadet uniformed.  And I suppsoe there are some of you out their that think its the parent's duty to pay for the ad infinitum uniform policies that people champion as their own personal pet agenda, but the truth is that there are two types of young adults that need CAP...these are the rich and the POOR.

By the way, every function we do is a Civilian one.  Also, each unit develops its own notion of "normal CAP function."

[Gunner C]

Also, just because a cadet is new doesn't mean they are some sort of "imbecile."

:clap:

[Daniel]

Ok look here..

I may not be in the national database which is why i wore my bdu's my commander asked me to wear my uniform to school.. I reminded him i didnt have a name plate and asked if BDUs are fine. He said since it was BDU night anyways I could. I used the inhertitated nametape from my grandpas old CAP BDUs.

and no im not an imbecile. I am working to create a forum software when im not at school. geez.

[Gunner C]

Ok look here..

I may not be in the national database which is why i wore my bdu's my commander asked me to wear my uniform to school.. I reminded him i didnt have a name plate and asked if BDUs are fine. He said since it was BDU night anyways I could. I used the inhertitated nametape from my grandpas old CAP BDUs.

Don't worry about it, Daniel.  You did fine. Welcome to CAP.  Most of us are pretty nice - don't let the barracudas get to you! 

Gunner

[Daniel]

to be honest.. I dont know why im still here.
I came here to learn about CAP.. as i was the one member of my squad that studied the book all week long and couldnt stop staring at the uniform in glee. I know now that the only way im going to keep that feeling is to leave this forum..

[Major Carrales]

Your grandfather's nametapes..eh?  Kudos to your grandfather.  My uncle once bought me a set of service caps, I took it on the chin for wearing one.

In fact, I think I'm goingto give my company grade service cap to a cadet from our unit that is soon to Mitchell.  I will give my field grade on to my daughters.

However, such honors paid to our ancestors are merely tossed aside by some of us here.

[Major Carrales]

to be honest.. I dont know why im still here.
I came here to learn about CAP.. as i was the one member of my squad that studied the book all week long and couldnt stop staring at the uniform in glee. I know now that the only way im going to keep that feeling is to leave this forum..

Don't be discouraged. 

Good job...CAPTALKERS, I wonder how many more people get driven off from CAP because some of you have to "go there."

It's a PAO and Recruiter's nigthmare here sometimes.  And I've said that and such sentiments before.

[Gunner C]

Wow!  Your grandfather was in CAP?  That's too cool.  Do you know much about his service?  It's an incredible honor to be able to follow in your ancestor's footsteps.  Keep it up, you'll do fine.

Gunner

[Daniel]

He was in the california wing

safety officer..

thats about all i know other then his military service helped him get a bigger rank then my commander whom is a captian

[JoeTomasone]

Recruiting is a part of CAP.  We wear uniforms while recruiting.  ergo, cadets wearing uniforms to school, properly, for the purpose of visibility and recruiting, should not be a violation.  Others may disagree.

By that logic:

Flying is a part of CAP.   We wear uniforms while flying.  Ergo, wearing uniforms on commercial airlines, for the purpose of flying, should not be a violation.

Search and Rescue is a part of CAP.  We wear uniforms while performing Search and Rescue.  Ergo, members wearing uniforms while searching the neighborhood for their teenager who didn't make it home by curfew, for the purpose of searching for him/her, should not be a violation.

I could go on, but I think the absurd point has been made.   39-1 says when you can and cannot wear the uniform, and to me, it's pretty unambiguous. And quite frankly, I'm surprised that anyone would have trouble defining a "normal CAP activity".  


Daniel, if your Commander said to wear it, then you did nothing wrong.   The point that many are trying to make here is that your Commander probably shouldn't have told you to do so. 

Read and understand the regs -- CAPTALK should only be used as a resource to learn what regs to read. 

[Major Carrales]

By that logic:

Flying is a part of CAP.   We wear uniforms while flying.  Ergo, wearing uniforms on commercial airlines, for the purpose of flying, should not be a violation.

Read and understand the regs -- CAPTALK should only be used as a resource to learn what regs to read. 

Sound advice for you as well my friend.  CAPM 39-1 Tabel 1-1 page 6

may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and from local CAP activities) (see note 2).

note 2...

2. Unit commanders can make exceptions for travel in small commuter aircraft that involve short
flights in areas of the country where civilians wear informal clothing because of weather or cramped
conditions on the commuter aircraft.

[MIKE]

I may not be in the national database which is why i wore my bdu's my commander asked me to wear my uniform to school.. I reminded him i didnt have a name plate and asked if BDUs are fine. He said since it was BDU night anyways I could. I used the inhertitated nametape from my grandpas old CAP BDUs.

Way to make a federal case out of it. [/peanut gallery]

This thread is just another example of why we don't have an active cadet population here... Even if someones overeagerness results in an open mouth insert foot situation, and they get jumped on.

Now back to thread over-watch.

[JoeTomasone]

Read and understand the regs -- CAPTALK should only be used as a resource to learn what regs to read. 

Sound advice for you as well my friend.  CAPM 39-1 Tabel 1-1 page 6

may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and from local CAP activities) (see note 2).

I know about that one; but admittedly I was thinking about BDUs at the time.   Mea maxima culpa.   The point was that I could take anything we do in CAP and justify uniform wear based on the logic presented.

[Major Carrales]

Read and understand the regs -- CAPTALK should only be used as a resource to learn what regs to read. 

Sound advice for you as well my friend.  CAPM 39-1 Tabel 1-1 page 6

may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and from local CAP activities) (see note 2).

I know about that one; but admittedly I was thinking about BDUs at the time.   Mea maxima culpa.   The point was that I could take anything we do in CAP and justify uniform wear based on the logic presented.

No problem, you are correct about uniform wear.  However, it is left in the hands of local commanders.  In reality there are clear restrictions spelled out, but latitude given for other situations.

I flew to Atlanta in 2007 for the PAO academy and National Board, I wore blues as Kach can testify.  All other uniformed service people were in ACUs and ABUs.

[Hawk200]

I may not be in the national database which is why i wore my bdu's my commander asked me to wear my uniform to school.. I reminded him i didnt have a name plate and asked if BDUs are fine. He said since it was BDU night anyways I could. I used the inhertitated nametape from my grandpas old CAP BDUs.

I was one of the first to be harsh on this thread. For that, I'm going to apologize.

Based on what you've posted, I'm now inclined to believe that you did not know better.

As to wearing uniforms to school, there have been some consistent problems with it. Some new cadet members have taken to wearing uniforms to school, then to the mall, then wherever they go. A lot of it is for simply getting attention, not for recruiting purposes. The biggest problem has been when a commander gets a call out of nowhere about cadets in uniform having caused problems.

This has caused some issues with schools, and has caused some negative views toward CAP. A uniform is not just a set of clothes to be worn, it represents duty. Any action, good or bad, taken in that uniform reflects on CAP as a whole. Considering how new you are to the program, I personally do not feel that you were ready.

You came here for help, and we didn't respond with any.

As far as your uniform goes, it is best not to wear it until it is complete. Having an incomplete uniform is part of what gives us a reputation of being "ragtag" and "wannabe". Difficult to get people to join when they think that 's all we are.

I can appreciate your zeal to wear a uniform, but I'd suggest some patience. The time will come.

I flew to Atlanta in 2007 for the PAO academy and National Board, I wore blues as Kach can testify.  All other uniformed service people were in ACUs and ABUs.

When I first joined the military twenty years ago, this was an example of "things not done". The service dress or variation of it was worn when traveling, nothing else. Utilities were limited on when and where. If it took longer than ten minutes for a travel stop, you didn't wear BDUs there.

Our culture has started leaning toward a "casualness". It's the only reason I can think of that explains why an ACU or ABU would be permitted for wear just about anywhere. People go to job interviews wearing polos and khakis, instead of suits with ties. Maybe I'm getting cynical, but I'm not real impressed with our culture today. (Is this a sign that I'm getting old?  )

[Rotorhead]

Our culture has started leaning toward a "casualness". It's the only reason I can think of that explains why an ACU or ABU would be permitted for wear just about anywhere. People go to job interviews wearing polos and khakis, instead of suits with ties. Maybe I'm getting cynical, but I'm not real impressed with our culture today. (Is this a sign that I'm getting old?  )

Yes.

But that doesn't make you wrong.

[LtCol057]

Unfortunately, it's not just cadets wearing the uniforms incorrectly. Years ago while I was a 1st Lt at an encampment, we had a chaplain (Lt Col at that) show up wearing blues with brown shoes and a baseball cap. He had 15 years CAP service at that time. Needless to say the encampment commander was not a happy camper. 

BTW Stonewall, I have read your stuff about training flights and wholeheartedly agree.  I'm trying to get something like that going in my squadron, but still meeting some resistance from the oldtimers. 

I guess in a way I am a uniform nazi because when I was AD, BDUs or utilities were not to be worn offbase except to and from work, with minimal (less than 10 minutes) stops.  Definitely not on commercial aircraft. But things have changed.

[hatentx]

While in this situation it turned out alright (wearing bdus to school) I know that in my High School we were not allowed to wear them.  Even the JROTC couldn't wear them.  It was grounds for suspension.  Something to do with gangs and the such.  So I am glad this was not the situation. 

I think part of the relaxed travel standards is because of the troops traveling back and forth to Iraq and such is in the utility uniform and the thought " Well this is what I wore before"  I recall in AIT having to wear Class As home for Christmas and after Graduation.  Then they threaded us that they had DSGTs everywhere and that they would know who we were and if we got caught it was out rank.  haha being a dumb private I believed them.

Maybe to be a member on CAPTALK we need to have sensitivity training?  I know my feelings have been hurt once maybe and I am sure I can hurt some as well.  I forget I am not dealing with my soldiers who I can call choice names and treat them like soldiers, plus a forum like this gives people "internet guts"

[TEAM SURGE]

Alright eveyone, stand down.

Just for your information, our Brahma Cadet Flight that meets at Memorial Middle School in Kingsville, Texas regularly wears their uniform to school.  Tuesday is blues and Thursday is BDUs.  They sometimes post the colors in the mornings and are visible.

We have after school meetings right afterschool as well as during "Lunch" and will again during the Advisory/Activity Period when Standardized Testing ends.

We have maintained a good relationship with the campus and the world did not end.  In fact, many times the opposite has occured.  The cadets have distinguished themselves as leaders and feel very connected through CAP.  

I d not believe in unauthorized disorganized uniform wear, but there are occasions where and when (spacetime?) it is appropriate.  

Also, just because a cadet is new doesn't mean they are some sort of "imbecile."  

This sort of thing is why I no longer recommend my members (cadet and senior)visit CAPTALK or CADETSTUFF.   There is no gentle guiding hand here from many of us, only the abrupt "slap in the face."  I have had several new people PM me about such feelings.

They came here for answers and, instead, got their zeal to serve tarnished.  People please, if you have such comments to make do it in PM.  The One-ups-manship is distasteful and very unbecoming.  

This is why I have been debating on closing my account on here since the day I signed up for it.

When I joined CAP I was confused on whether I was allowed to wear my uniform to school or not. I am sure many of us were. Although I never did attempt to wear mine to school, lighten up.

I personnally I think this sight is over governed by people who have no lives outside of CAP. So to say that is just my oppinion so I don't want 50 PM telling me that I should just close mine or that I am being "offensive" to anybody.

[es_g0d]

While in this situation it turned out alright (wearing bdus to school) I know that in my High School we were not allowed to wear them.  Even the JROTC couldn't wear them.  It was grounds for suspension.  Something to do with gangs and the such.

Wow, I'd love to have a talk with the administration of that school district.  A proper military uniform has something (ANYTHING?) to do with gangs?  Ugh!  Sometimes its the educators who need education.

[Hawk200]

While in this situation it turned out alright (wearing bdus to school) I know that in my High School we were not allowed to wear them.  Even the JROTC couldn't wear them.  It was grounds for suspension.  Something to do with gangs and the such.

Wow, I'd love to have a talk with the administration of that school district.  A proper military uniform has something (ANYTHING?) to do with gangs?  Ugh!  Sometimes its the educators who need education.

I've actually run into people that beleive that the military is nothing more than a bunch of gangs. It's wierd to me, but there are people that believe it.

Kinda proves to me that they've never been military. If they had, they'd know it's far too political to be a gang. 

[Sleepwalker]

   As a Squadon Commander, I sometimes like to joke about our Cadets that

"Our 'Gang' colors are woodland camo, and our 'Gang Sign' is the salute"

   I also have had Cadets ask me to wear their uniforms to school.  I agreed on three conditions: 1. that all the CAP Cadets who attend the school wear their uniforms on the same day (about five of them) 2. that they check with the school administrators first, and it is OK with them (it was) 3. that they alternate between the Blues and BDUs. 
   We have had a very good response from this, and I think it has been a great PR and recruiting tool.  My advice and opinion?  Don't get too caught up in the 'its not in the regs' argument.  So what if the Cadet feels great pride in wearing the uniform to school, and the positive attention it gets - what's wrong with that?     
     

[Hawk200]

   As a Squadon Commander, I sometimes like to joke about our Cadets that

"Our 'Gang' colors are woodland camo, and our 'Gang Sign' is the salute"

I'd stop joking about that. All it takes is one person to hear it that doesn't know you're joking, and then it's all over the papers that CAP Cadets are a gang. There are people stupid enough to believe everything they read or hear.

   I also have had Cadets ask me to wear their uniforms to school.  I agreed on three conditions: 1. that all the CAP Cadets who attend the school wear their uniforms on the same day (about five of them) 2. that they check with the school administrators first, and it is OK with them (it was) 3. that they alternate between the Blues and BDUs. 
   We have had a very good response from this, and I think it has been a great PR and recruiting tool.  My advice and opinion?  Don't get too caught up in the 'its not in the regs' argument.  So what if the Cadet feels great pride in wearing the uniform to school, and the positive attention it gets - what's wrong with that?     

I get a little nervous when people don't want to get "too" caught up in the regs. We have them for a reason.

Personally, I've seen a lot of very negative attention at times when uniforms were worn to school. More often than not, cadets in BDU's were the problem. The BDU is not an appropriate uniform for school. For CAP, the BDU is an "in house" utility uniform. At our meetings, it's fine. On a mission, it's fine. Wearing it to school is not. Blues are the uniform for public appearance.

Pride is a double edged sword. It can be a bad thing. We shouldn't be teaching pride, we should be teaching confidence. And you don't get that from a uniform.

[tarheel gumby]

 This is a different time now than in the 80's WIWAC. It was a good recruiting tool then. I just don't know now with soo much overreaction in the school systems (from the administrators). I say use caution and always get your Squadron commander's permisson + the School's before hand.

[Stonewall]

I wore my CAP uniform to school at least 2 or 3 times.  I think I remember it being a national effort to get cadets to wear uniforms on CAP's birthday, which I did once.

Other times I wore it on "career day" when the military recruiters came in to set up their booths; we set up ours.

[JoeTomasone]

Don't get too caught up in the 'its not in the regs' argument.     

Wow.   Just..... Wow.   

[Sleepwalker]

Everything I have ever have posted on this website gets attacked - even when it is meant to be motivational.  This is my last post.  I am never posting this site again, I am sorry to say, and I will recomend to any  members who ask that they avoid this forum because I love working in CAP but all I get reading everyone's 'hit pieces' against each other is demotived.

 
Thank you RiverAux, Major Carralles, Caphistorian, Stonewall, Rougue Leader and the many others who gave rational, inciteful advice  - and when you disagreed, did so with respect.  Good bye. 

P.S.>All I meant by  "...it's not in the regs" is that I don't  'make up' regs that aren't there.   I am known as a stickler for following the regs.

[RogueLeader]

Seriously,  it's one thing to be "Darn the regs, I'm going to do whatever I want!" and it's quite another to make a judicious choice to allow BDU's at school.  The regs do NOT say exactly where it is appropriate, and not in a case by case basis.  The commander made his choice by authorizing it.  Deal with it.  Don't get your drawers in a bunch because he saw the situation than you would.

It's not like they were worn to a KKK meeting, or a Neo-Nazi rally.


yeah, yeah.  Godwins Law I know. I lose.

[Hawk200]

P.S.>All I meant by  "...it's not in the regs" is that I don't  'make up' regs that aren't there.   I am known as a stickler for following the regs.

Your statement was "Don't get too caught up in the 'its not in the regs' argument." A lot of people use that type of statement to justify all kinds of things, usually to their own benefit.

I can agree with "don't make up regs". That's an unfortunate problem, too. People also do that to their own benefit.

We all have to be careful about how what we say (or type) will be received. There are things that are funny to some people, not to others. I'm not saying that people should be humorless, just avoid jokes that could be taken the wrong way. Gang jokes are one of those things. We have to be careful.

Other things require an appropriateness. Which uniforms to wear to school is one of these things. BDUs and flightsuits aren't meant for that kind of thing. Look at military recruiters. How many times have you ever seen a recruiter in their office in anything other than blues (or equivalent for other branches)? Not many. The utility uniform isn't meant for that.

Showing off BDUs is not really a good recruiting method. Let cadets wear blues to school, and have them invite others to meetings. Those potentials will see the BDUs eventually, but that uniform shouldn't be a selling point. We don't need to be putting forth the impression that we're "playing Army". I think it turns off parents too.  We have to consider such things if we wish to grow.

[PHall]

[major snippage]

This sort of thing is why I no longer recommend my members (cadet and senior)visit CAPTALK or CADETSTUFF.   There is no gentle guiding hand here from many of us, only the abrupt "slap in the face."  I have had several new people PM me about such feelings.

They came here for answers and, instead, got their zeal to serve tarnished.  People please, if you have such comments to make do it in PM.  The One-ups-manship is distasteful and very unbecoming.  

Hey Joe, if CAPTalk and CadetStuff are so evil, then why are YOU still posting on them?

I thought that Commanders were supposed to lead by example.

Do as I say and not as I do is NOT a good example.

[Major Carrales]

[major snippage]

This sort of thing is why I no longer recommend my members (cadet and senior)visit CAPTALK or CADETSTUFF.   There is no gentle guiding hand here from many of us, only the abrupt "slap in the face."  I have had several new people PM me about such feelings.

They came here for answers and, instead, got their zeal to serve tarnished.  People please, if you have such comments to make do it in PM.  The One-ups-manship is distasteful and very unbecoming.  

Hey Joe, if CAPTalk and CadetStuff are so evil, then why are YOU still posting on them?

I thought that Commanders were supposed to lead by example.

Do as I say and not as I do is NOT a good example.

In all communities there are people who must try to maintain "higher" standards.  To leave this forum, for me, because I am offended by some post or by the tenor of the discussion lacks integrity.

As a Public Affairs Officer and squadron commander I cannot sit idly by and allow people to violate the CAP core values.  Especially when modertaion of this forum is so strict on making sure things are in the correct catergory and locking topic drift, but so lacks on calling people for "dogpiling" or "body slamming" a newbie (Cadet or Senior).

I was very pleased that so many others "called" people on the relatively harsh treatment of some of the newbies (and most of it in PM).  It is a sign that people are "getting it" and changing.  The Official moderators cannot read every post, that is why it is up to us to defend and shape the discussions.

You, Sir, should be one of those providing that moderation...not calling me into question for trying to do so.

[winterg]

Look at military recruiters. How many times have you ever seen a recruiter in their office in anything other than blues (or equivalent for other branches)? Not many. The utility uniform isn't meant for that.

Showing off BDUs is not really a good recruiting method. Let cadets wear blues to school, and have them invite others to meetings. Those potentials will see the BDUs eventually, but that uniform shouldn't be a selling point. We don't need to be putting forth the impression that we're "playing Army". I think it turns off parents too.  We have to consider such things if we wish to grow.

The recruiting station was right next to the bar I worked at before I moved to Milwaukee last month.  I saw recruiters in dress uniforms maybe once a week.  Almost always in utilities.  I know because they usually had their lunch in the bar and then drinks afterwards.  Also in uniform.  And, no. I am NOT using this as a justification, just an observation.  Recruiters routinely wear utilities these days.

And I am curious as to why you believe that BDU's ate not a good recruiting method.  Not counting the fact that they look horrible covered in hideously colored patches! lol When we had recruiting booths we always had some in dress and some in utility uniforms to show off the different uniforms.

[Major Carrales]

[major snippage]

This sort of thing is why I no longer recommend my members (cadet and senior)visit CAPTALK or CADETSTUFF.   There is no gentle guiding hand here from many of us, only the abrupt "slap in the face."  I have had several new people PM me about such feelings.

They came here for answers and, instead, got their zeal to serve tarnished.  People please, if you have such comments to make do it in PM.  The One-ups-manship is distasteful and very unbecoming.  

Hey Joe, if CAPTalk and CadetStuff are so evil, then why are YOU still posting on them?

I thought that Commanders were supposed to lead by example.

Do as I say and not as I do is NOT a good example.

I don't restrict them from posting or reading forums, I just no longer prosylatize it to them as I once did.

[RogueLeader]

Look at military recruiters. How many times have you ever seen a recruiter in their office in anything other than blues (or equivalent for other branches)? Not many. The utility uniform isn't meant for that.

All of the Army recruiters that I have ever seen/dealt with were in ACU's.  The AF recruiters were in ABU/BDU/polo's.  The ONLY recruiters I saw in non-utlity uniforms was the Navy or Marines.

To me BDU's/ACU's/ABU's/etc. say to me: we go out and DO stuff.  We don't just sit around and look pretty.  We aren't afraid to get our hands dirty in our tasks.  Blues have their purpose, and the shouldd be worn in equal or better numbers during recruting for a better image; we do, however, need to show that that image is not the only image to see.

[Rotorhead]

To me BDU's/ACU's/ABU's/etc. say to me: we go out and DO stuff. 

That's what they say to YOU.

But to many civilians, they say, "We play war," whether you like it or not.

And parents do not necessarily want their 12- or 13-year-old involved in an organization that "plays war."

[RiverAux]

But to many civilians, they say, "We play war," whether you like it or not.

That is always going to be in the eye of the beholder and there is nothing you can do about that.

Example:
1.  Wear the blues with your ribbons -- "look at that guy with all those ribbons.  Who does he think he is?  Patton?"

2.  Wear the BDUs -- "Who does that guy think he is?  Rambo?". 

You can't win with those who are going to think that way, so don't worry about them.

[hatentx]

At my High School there was a gang that wore BDUs as their gang colors and such thus was the reason for the ban on BDUs for what ever reason.  A little over kill possible but it was the decision that was made.

Most Army recruiters I see now were only ACUs being that it is new(er) and makes them stand out.  I am sure when the Army Blue Class As are in full force that will be the new recruiter uniform.

[Hawk200]

I guess things have changed. In times past, recruiters didn't wear utilities. I'm a little surprised to hear of the Navy and the Corps doing it, they used to be pretty strict on utilities off post.

I guess that casual clothing drift continues. Maybe in ten years it will be back to the formal stuff.

I still do not believe that trying to sell our program with BDU's is the right thing to do. If blues don't bring them in, I'd have to question the motivation.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I think BDUs are a better recruiting tool as they signify getting some real work done while blue are just dress-up clothes. 

[Hawk200]

Personally, I think BDUs are a better recruiting tool as they signify getting some real work done while blue are just dress-up clothes. 

It's my belief that they're not to signify getting work done, but a uniform to work in. Just my opinion. If I were a commander, I wouldn't authorize the practice. There are plenty of excuses, the most common being that cadets always get BDU's first. They shouldn't be, there's a free blue uniform program for them. If BDU's were to be representative, then they would be issued first.

Maybe there should be a National guideline on this, considering the various opinions. But then, they'd probably leave it up to the commander. Considering that National Personnel doesn't like cloth nametags on flightsuits, I'd be surprised to see them officially allowing BDUs to school.

Think of it this way: would you wear BDU's to church (if you attend)? School is just as formal a setting.

[JayT]

Personally, I think BDUs are a better recruiting tool as they signify getting some real work done while blue are just dress-up clothes. 

Maybe there should be a National guideline on this, considering the various opinions. But then, they'd probably leave it up to the commander. Considering that National Personnel doesn't like cloth nametags on flightsuits, I'd be surprised to see them officially allowing BDUs to school.

What do cloth nametags have to do with BDU's?

[Hawk200]

Personally, I think BDUs are a better recruiting tool as they signify getting some real work done while blue are just dress-up clothes. 

Maybe there should be a National guideline on this, considering the various opinions. But then, they'd probably leave it up to the commander. Considering that National Personnel doesn't like cloth nametags on flightsuits, I'd be surprised to see them officially allowing BDUs to school.

What do cloth nametags have to do with BDU's?

Never mind. It's not important.

[winterg]

^ Actually, I'm kind of curious about the point myself.  Not trying to be argumentative here, just wondering the connection between BDU's and cloth nametapes.

And as far as being representative of our organization, I don't see a difference between blues and BDU's.  Worn correctly with proper decorum they both accomplish the same thing; showing us to be part of an organization that derives many of it's values, customs, and traditions from a branch of the armed forces. 

We can pretend it is something else all we want but we are in fact instilling the traditions of warfighters into our youth.  I know times have changed and everything, and I hate saying the following phrase as it is used as a justification all too often  , but...... When I was a cadet, it was not such a negative PR issue to acknowledge that fact.

[es_g0d]

I think the poster was referring to cloth name TAGS as are worn on the flightsuit.  At least that's how I understood the subtlety!

Of course, virtually no one in the "real" Air Force wears leather name tags.  Some enterprising CAP members have caught on to this and purchased cloth ones.  I hope I don't need to quote chapter and verse from 39-1 for everyone to know that's simply out-of-there!  Leather only for CAP, for now.  As an aside, the only other folks that wear leather name tags on the flightsuit are the brand-brand-new undergraduate flying students.  USAFA cadets have a glossy plastic tag that's reminiscent of leather, or perhaps "pleather."

[JayT]

I understood he was talking about the cloth nametags for the bag, but I don't really see how that relates at all to NHQ authorizing BDU's for wear at school.

[Ned]

Think of it this way: would you wear BDU's to church (if you attend)? School is just as formal a setting.

Sir,

I'm thinking that either you are a church-goer that does not go to public secondary school or a public secondary school student that does not often attend church.

But based on my experience as a church-goer with a couple of children not so long out of public high school in California, one could never confuse a group of youth just leaving services with a group of students just leaving school.

IOW, I don't think the students perceive school as having the same formality as Sunday services.   

I honestly hope it is different where you live.

[jimmydeanno]

The last encampment that I attended I went to the base chapel for service on Sunday morning.  All of those in attendance were in blues.  The chaplain, well, he was in ACUs.  I wonder if he got the memo that you don't wear BDUs to church...

[Hawk200]

I guess I'm just an old breed, or I had a far more formal upbringing. The general concensus seems to be "Wear whatever you want, anything goes".

Then again, I don't hear many people saying "Yes, maam" or "No, sir" or "Excuse me" these days. It's "naw" and "yeah", and "get outta my way". People don't seem to know how to talk or interact with each other with any form of dignity anymore.

The days of your work wear staying at work, and being more presentable outside seem to be over.

[winterg]

The days of your work wear staying at work, and being more presentable outside seem to be over.

I think that happened a few decades ago! 

I still do not see the connection, though, between looking presentable, respectable, or what have you with cadets wearing the BDU to school. (approved and worn properly)

[Hawk200]

The days of your work wear staying at work, and being more presentable outside seem to be over.

I think that happened a few decades ago! 

I still do not see the connection, though, between looking presentable, respectable, or what have you with cadets wearing the BDU to school. (approved and worn properly)

That's the problem. You don't see. You just quoted the very reason, and you still don't see. It's a working uniform. It's not meant to be an "Look at me, I'm cool!" outfit, it's meant to be utilitarian and get dirty.

But as for the "approved" part, I do have input on that in my own unit. I won't have to worry about it, considering that I'll be the one approving (or rather, not).

[RiverAux]

I would propose that most members of the public who come in contact with a uniformed CAP member, are more than likely going to see them in BDUs.  Why?  Because that is the most common uniform worn by CAP members at airshows (which often have 100K+ people) is BDUs. 

One might say that those CAP members are "working" so the BDU is appropriate, and in some cases that is true, but those CAP members assigned to the recruiting display are rarely going to be doing anything that they couldn't do just as well in blues. 

So, if you're going to say it is inappropriate to wear blues to school, better be consistent about it.

[jimmydeanno]

I guess I'm just an old breed, or I had a far more formal upbringing. The general concensus seems to be "Wear whatever you want, anything goes".

Hawk200,

I understand your sentiment and in many ways agree with you.  In many ways the deformalization of society has been beneficial and in others it hasn't.

Growing up you didn't wear your Sunday clothes on Tuesday and you most certainly didn't wear your Tuesday clothes on Sunday.  I wore khakis and a polo shirt (business casual) to school everyday, despite the grunge trends of the 90's.

As for recruiting.  If I had the choice, I would have my cadets wear blues one day to school instead of BDUs.  I think that BDUs don't send the initial message that we want to convey.  I don't think that there is anything wrong with BDUs in general, but the initial public perception is different than I think I'd want.

EDIT: Forgot to finish.  However, if BDUs are what is going to get someone in the door so we can show them how awesome our program is, then so be it.  Most of the younger cadets don't like wearing blues, but once they get older, they see the light.

[Rotorhead]

The days of your work wear staying at work, and being more presentable outside seem to be over.

I think that happened a few decades ago! 

I still do not see the connection, though, between looking presentable, respectable, or what have you with cadets wearing the BDU to school. (approved and worn properly)

That's the problem. You don't see. You just quoted the very reason, and you still don't see. It's a working uniform. It's not meant to be an "Look at me, I'm cool!" outfit, it's meant to be utilitarian and get dirty.

Precisely.

[jeders]

I would propose that most members of the public who come in contact with a uniformed CAP member, are more than likely going to see them in BDUs.  Why?  Because that is the most common uniform worn by CAP members at airshows (which often have 100K+ people) is BDUs. 

One might say that those CAP members are "working" so the BDU is appropriate, and in some cases that is true, but those CAP members assigned to the recruiting display are rarely going to be doing anything that they couldn't do just as well in blues. 

So, if you're going to say it is inappropriate to wear blues to school, better be consistent about it.

I don't know about Hawk's squadron or your squadron, but in my squadron, recruiters wear blues to air shows. If we have people "working" the air show, then they can wear BDUs. But if you're at the recruiting booth, you're in blues.

As far as wearing uniforms to school, I agree that BDUs don't convey the right first message. Blues are generally a better uniform to wear for recruiting.

[RiverAux]

When it comes right down to it, certain potential cadets are going to be attracted to blues while others will be attracted to BDUs.  While I certainly believe that there are potential cadets who will be turned off by the blues, I don't think there are many that are going to be turned off by BDUs.  That is why I think that on balance, you get better bang for your buck with BDUs. 

But, I think this is better left off as a decision for the local commander and would strongly oppose any sort of blanket requirement to wear one or the other. 

[winterg]

I still do not see the connection, though, between looking presentable, respectable, or what have you with cadets wearing the BDU to school. (approved and worn properly)

That's the problem. You don't see. You just quoted the very reason, and you still don't see.

I do see the point you are trying to make, I guess the correct verbage would have been to say that I don't agree with your argument.  Fashions and perceptions change over time.  It's a fact Fact.  I'm not saying this is good or bad.  It just is.  Whose ideas of proper mode of dress should we adhere to?  I'd rather not wear spats and a scarf every time I leave the house to conform to the perception of respectability from years ago.

I'm all for wearing the proper attire for the correct occasion.  I wear a full tuxedo at least twice a month to Lodge.  I dress respectfully when I attend synagogue.  And no matter what CAP uniform we wear we will be judged by the public based on that individuals social views, political views, upbringing, family history, and a myriad of other factors that we can't change. 

My opinion is that it is not nearly as important what uniform we wear in public so much as it is how we wear it.

[majdomke]

On a lighter note... WIWAC, we wore our class B uniforms every year to school on December 1st or the Friday before if it fell on a weekend. Was an excellent recruiting source. I allowed my cadets to do the same this past year and it was well received.