Wings for aircrews...

[Pumbaa]

Try doing a photo mission without a Scanner.

I do it all the time in our CD missions.  Did 50 sorties this year and only one has a scanner.  I would rather go with the pilot and myself.

[Timbo]

Not only would that weed out the ones who don't need to be there, it would gain a little more trust from the pilots that we can do the job right.

As a pilot (who doesn't drive very much for CAP anymore, just enough  ) I would say that becoming a pilot is not at all difficult.  I got my PPL at 18, and was flying for CAP 3 years later after my forms.  Keeping current is the biggest thing, but there are always opportunities.  Actually doing the searching or working the archer system or the other tasks that are not part of the pilots duties are what is important.  Being a pilot in CAP, is nothing more than being a taxi driver.

Pilots are nothing special.  Just another CAP member.  Trying to impress them is uncool.  Just do your job, and stand up for your right to sit upfront.  Getting bumped at the last minute because Major McNerdy needs his last minute hours is not at all cool.  Let the boss know that you are outraged.      

[Flying Pig]

As a pilot, I dont agree.  If I have the choice of another pilot going up front to do the Observer duties thats where their going.  Im not putting a pilot in the back seat, to have a non-pilot sitting up front.  From a safety, CRM, and redundancy issue just to name a few.

[Timbo]

As a pilot, I dont agree.  If I have the choice of another pilot going up front to do the Observer duties thats where their going.  Im not putting a pilot in the back seat, to have a non-pilot sitting up front.  From a safety, CRM, and redundancy issue just to name a few.

Why have Observers at all.  Make all pilots train in the Observer skill set, and eliminate all non-pilots from the front?!?!  Is that correct, from what I understand as the tone of your post??

[Eclipse]

As a pilot, I dont agree.  If I have the choice of another pilot going up front to do the Observer duties thats where their going.  Im not putting a pilot in the back seat, to have a non-pilot sitting up front.  From a safety, CRM, and redundancy issue just to name a few.

GOB mentality.

Whether the Observer or Scanner is a pilot should not even be part of the conversation.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

As a pilot, I dont agree.  If I have the choice of another pilot going up front to do the Observer duties thats where their going.  Im not putting a pilot in the back seat, to have a non-pilot sitting up front.  From a safety, CRM, and redundancy issue just to name a few.

Why have Observers at all.  Make all pilots train in the Observer skill set, and eliminate all non-pilots from the front?!?!  Is that correct, from what I understand as the tone of your post??

Well said

I worked up to GBD before I started air crew training. Since then,  I've achieved an IC rating. As a former cadet and AE Officer I know most of the basics of what is going on "up front". But in Flying Pig's world I'm worth less in the right seat than someone with PPL and GES.

I am really sick of the pilots that think the rest of us are 2nd class citizens.

[Flying Pig]

GOB mentality??

I dont have any mentality.   Whatever mindset I have comes from flying with professional aircrews for the last few years. However, if I have a crew made up of a 2 Mission Pilots and 1 Observer, the 2nd pilot is going up front.  Especially if I am facing mountain flying, or single pilot IFR.  Now...maybe I should have specified a Mission Pilot, not a new pilot with 40 hours looking to build time or get his form 5 done.  As a crew commander, I want my most qualified people in my most essential positions.  If I hurt your feelings because I would put anther Mission Pilot up front with me, vs. in the back, get in another plane.
If your mindset makes you feel like a second class citizen, maybe you need some counseling.  Fact is, I have been an "Observer" for the last several years and am now a pilot.  Ive done more grunt observer work than you could possibly imagine so save the lectures.
I am not looking for someone with a "basic understanding" of what is going on.  Some of you are getting your panties in a bunch because you might not get to play.  Im looking at stacking my crew according to their qualifications.

[Eclipse]

GOB mentality??

I am not looking for someone with a "basic understanding" of what is going on.  Some of you are getting your panties in a bunch because you might not get to play.  Im looking at stacking my crew according to their qualifications.

Thankfully in my wing the aircrews are not set by the pilots.

Textbook

     Good

     Old

     Boy

[Flying Pig]

Yeah...thats it...Im in the Good ol' Boy network.

[Flying Pig]

I say no.  Leave it the way it is.  Sorry, but there isnt a whole lot to the Scanner deal.  A Scanner is a luxury position.  If you can get one, great, if you cant, oh well, we still launch.  I have rarely flown on a mission with a Scanner. 

Try doing a photo mission without a Scanner.

And no, the Observer doesn't take the pictures...

Curious, why cant the Observer take the photos?  I have had people take hundreds of photos from the Observer seat of a 206 and they come out just fine.  At least good enough to withstand scrutiny from a Defense Attorney, which is pretty good.

[Eclipse]

Curious, why cant the Observer take the photos?  I have had people take hundreds of photos from the Observer seat of a 206 and they come out just fine.

For starters, not all wings have a 206 - most have 172's and 182, and its near impossible to take a photo in those aircraft
from the right seat without getting a wing strut or wheel in the photo.

Next, the MO's job is mission command - radio work, flight logging, navigation, etc., which leaves little time for taking photos.

Either the pictures and the tracking suffer, or some part of the overall mission requirements suffer.

Also, my personal experience is thata the more "piloty" an MO is, the more attention he pays to flying the airplane and less to his actual job, which has nothing to do with flying the airplane.

[Flying Pig]

Curious, why cant the Observer take the photos?  I have had people take hundreds of photos from the Observer seat of a 206 and they come out just fine.

For starters, not all wings have a 206 - most have 172's and 182, and its near impossible to take a photo in those aircraft
from the right seat without getting a wing strut or wheel in the photo.

Next, the MO's job is mission command - radio work, flight logging, navigation, etc., which leaves little time for taking photos.

Either the pictures and the tracking suffer, or some part of the overall mission requirements suffer.

Also, my personal experience is thata the more "piloty" an MO is, the more attention he pays to flying the airplane and less to his actual job, which has nothing to do with flying the airplane.

Ill agree.  Ive never taken a photo from a 182 or a 172.  However, I still stand by my preference to having a Mission Pilot up front over a non-pilot.  And where I am, a Scanner is still a luxury.  Which has nothing to do with thinking someone is a second class citizen.  Thats usually a cop out for people who just want to call names vs trying to understand why. 
My comments are based on some pretty sound training and experience, not because Im a good ol boy.  As far as having an MP/Observer who starts to take more of an interest in flying than observing, your right, that can be an issue just the same as a search I was on as a SCANNER where the pilot was spending more time providing flight instruction to the Observer than we spent searching.  So it can go both ways.

I am a pilot and have no problem jumping in a scanner if needed.  Id rather not, but if a crew needed one, OK.  So why should an Observer have an issue with acting as a scanner?

So, asking that we respectfully agree to disagree, I offer the Observer/Scanner National Anthem :clap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlw2EMpIYes

[RiverAux]

I see no need to alter the current system.  From my experience a majority of those who do any significant amount of flying become observers.  I can't think of many active aircrew members who stay at Scanner on a permanent basis. 

So, basically all this would do would give most aircrew members a set of wings a few months earlier than they would get them anyway and allow people who barely do any flying to have some wings. 

Personally, its no skin off my nose if a scanner who flies once a year has a set of wings, but if the goal of the wings is as a motivation tool or to recognize significant contributions to the program, I don't see it making a difference.   

[Eclipse]

So, asking that we respectfully agree to disagree, I offer the Observer/Scanner National Anthem :clap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlw2EMpIYes

Nice! 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

If a pilot needed the right seat, then I usually got bumped to the back.

That is so wrong...

I agree.

But it happens all the time. It doesn't always bother me -- heck, if the right-seat pilot wants to do all the work, so be it. I'll still log it as an observer.

But if I'm in the back and it becomes an actual, and the guy isn't mission-qualified, the crew had darn well better be reconfigured to put me up front.

Otherwise, being in the back leaves me free to shoot from the back seat and enjoy the ride.

(Uh, shoot with a camera, that is. My D100 with a 300.)

[Gunner C]

I used to run a wing's mission observer school.  We'd give them the best training possible outside of of NESA.  When they left our course they could navigate, observe, work the radios, plan searches, and whatever else was needed in the front seat.

Unfortunately, that was the last time that most of them ever saw the front seat.  On the very next SAREX, everyone of them had showed up with their equipment ready to fly missions.  They sat there the entire day waiting to be called for a sortie by the AOBD.  The entire day they watched A/C take off with three pilots.  Finally, the AOBD came in and said "I need one of you backseaters to replace someone on a mission."

I never saw anyone from that class on a mission again. I don't think any of them ever renewed their membership, either.

I've been on sorties where a low-time MP (not an observer) elbowed me out of the way on the way to the aircraft.  He said that a pilot's place was in the front seat.  I said that an observers station was the front right seat.  I refused to fly the mission and they left without an observer. That's how observers get treated. 

When I was a group commander, pilots trained as scanners, then MPs. PIlots weren't allowed to be observers and take seats from MOs who had trained for the privilege to fly on SARs.  If I hadn't done that, they NEVER would have flown.

[SJFedor]

I used to run a wing's mission observer school.  We'd give them the best training possible outside of of NESA.  When they left our course they could navigate, observe, work the radios, plan searches, and whatever else was needed in the front seat.

Unfortunately, that was the last time that most of them ever saw the front seat.  On the very next SAREX, everyone of them had showed up with their equipment ready to fly missions.  They sat there the entire day waiting to be called for a sortie by the AOBD.  The entire day they watched A/C take off with three pilots.  Finally, the AOBD came in and said "I need one of you backseaters to replace someone on a mission."

I never saw anyone from that class on a mission again. I don't think any of them ever renewed their membership, either.

I've been on sorties where a low-time MP (not an observer) elbowed me out of the way on the way to the aircraft.  He said that a pilot's place was in the front seat.  I said that an observers station was the front right seat.  I refused to fly the mission and they left without an observer. That's how observers get treated. 

When I was a group commander, pilots trained as scanners, then MPs. PIlots weren't allowed to be observers and take seats from MOs who had trained for the privilege to fly on SARs.  If I hadn't done that, they NEVER would have flown.

I won't lie, that's pretty sad.

Now, in defense of Lt. Steht, if I know I'm going to be in a very high workload environment (single pilot IFR, mountain, etc) I would much prefer, and request, a 2nd pilot to be in the seat, simply in the name of safety.

Now, barring any of those implications, I'd actually rather have an MO in the right seat, be it a low time pilot that doesn't have the hours for MP, or a non-pilot MO. This is mainly because I've "drank the kool-aid" from NESA and believe that the MO's place is next to me, running the show to the extent that they are capable of and that I feel comfortable with letting them. That DOES NOT mean I tell the n00b MO to shut up and color the entire flight and I run the show if I'm not comfortable with them handling everything, but rather that I'm going to add a 1-2 second window in my scan rotation between horizon, traffic, instrumentation, and everything else, to make sure that he's getting things set properly. And if it's not happening, then we'll have a learning experience to reinforce the skills.

And if I get a 2nd MP and an MO assigned to my crew, we'll have a discussion about who's gonna sit where and fill what roles, co-dependant on what the mission objective is. If we're just out doing grid searches, I really don't care who sits where, as long as the mission is getting completed. However, on those longer searches, in the interest of crew rest, I'd try to make opportunities for them to switch seats during an opportune rest stop while out on the sortie.

It's funny, I hear a lot of these horror stories about these prima donna pilots bumping out other people and the like, but honestly, i've yet to see it in my 9 years in, and my 4th as an aircrew member. But maybe I just don't perpetuate the stereotype 

[Pumbaa]

For starters, not all wings have a 206 - most have 172's and 182, and its near impossible to take a photo in those aircraft

It's not difficult to shoot out of a 172 or a 182, front or rear.  I have posted images of my work here in the past.  if you have a good pilot who can turn the bird properly you have the game won.

Perhaps more people need to take a basic course in aerial photography?

I said it before and I'll say it again.  I flew right seat as the observer/ Photographer all summer for CD.  We plan on 100 hours minimum in 2009.  All of our 2008 flights (with 1 exception) was just the pilot and myself.

We had over 95% of the 'finds' in NY Wing with our CD missions.

Our images were consistently the best the customer has seen.

So is a Pilot - Observer/Photog near impossible in a 172/182?  I say no.  It is a learnable skill set and learnable team skillset.

[SJFedor]

For starters, not all wings have a 206 - most have 172's and 182, and its near impossible to take a photo in those aircraft

It's not difficult to shoot out of a 172 or a 182, front or rear.  I have posted images of my work here in the past.  if you have a good pilot who can turn the bird properly you have the game won.

Perhaps more people need to take a basic course in aerial photography?

I said it before and I'll say it again.  I flew right seat as the observer/ Photographer all summer for CD.  We plan on 100 hours minimum in 2009.  All of our 2008 flights (with 1 exception) was just the pilot and myself.

We had over 95% of the 'finds' in NY Wing with our CD missions.

Our images were consistently the best the customer has seen.

So is a Pilot - Observer/Photog near impossible in a 172/182?  I say no.  It is a learnable skill set and learnable team skillset.

Which is an oustanding example of "improvise, adapt, and overcome" 

[davedove]

Back to the original question, I see nothing wrong with having wings for all the qualifications.  What I think would be appropriate is to redesignate the observer wings as aircrew wings and start the award at scanner.  We could keep the pilot wings so the pilots can feel special.

As far as the people who don't think we need more bling, my thought is why not.  Giving some sort of bling for almost anything is fine.  Bling is the only way we have of recognizing our people since we don't get paid.  Now, I agree about keeping the uniform somewhat clean, but you can do that by limiting the amount of bling that can be worn.  For instance, now a person can have both pilot and observer wings, but can only wear one at a time.

The argument has been raised that people will only get the qualifications for the bling.  I'll agree that people should have more noble intentions to get qualified, but on the other hand, if the craving for bling gets another person qualified, aren't we better off.  We have a hard enough time with getting and retaining people.