Wings for aircrews...

[CAPLAW]

how about a half wing for scanner

[O-Rex]

how about a half wing for scanner

Submitted in 2002: sender is still waiting for an answer.

I think it gets filed in the same place as requests for blue epaulets with 1550's and green nametapes on BDU's as well as other abused and deceased equine creatures....

[Timbo]

And I normally have an issue with bling overload.......For instance, there's too many of those enamel shields floating around -- I'd be OK with ditching them all.

It is because the Air Force does it too.  http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123130132

Everyone wants to feel special, and show off what they did.  CAP is no different.  

[O-Rex]

And I normally have an issue with bling overload.......For instance, there's too many of those enamel shields floating around -- I'd be OK with ditching them all.

It is because the Air Force does it too.  http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123130132

Everyone wants to feel special, and show off what they did.  CAP is no different.  

Yeah, but I've never seen more than one occupational badge on an Airman, whereas we can wear two. . . . .  like pasties 

I have a few specialties earned over the years, but wear only one badge at a time, based on what the event/target audience is.

Does anyone remember when the only specialty badges were were AE, Cadet Programs ES, Commo, Public Affairs and Safety? 

I think '02 or '03 was the 'specialty badge explosion.'

[Timbo]

^ Yes to everything!  I think the wings we have now are enough for what we do.  We can surely fit Archer SDIS and any other flight crew position into what is awarded now.  All we need to do is see that those types (Archer, etc) also can function as an Observer etc.  OR we can award two sets of wings, one for Pilot and one for Aircrew, no matter what specialty you have.  That way we cut back, and everyone still feels better.  Perhaps the Pilot Wings and the Observer Wings, nothing more, nothing less??  Is that stupid?  I am just throwing it out there.  We need to eliminate Bling, not create more. 

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah, but I've never seen more than one occupational badge on an Airman, whereas we can wear two. . . . .  like pasties 

A lot of Airmen wear multiple occupational badges. 

[O-Rex]

^ Yes to everything!  I think the wings we have now are enough for what we do.  We can surely fit Archer SDIS and any other flight crew position into what is awarded now.  All we need to do is see that those types (Archer, etc) also can function as an Observer etc.  OR we can award two sets of wings, one for Pilot and one for Aircrew, no matter what specialty you have.  That way we cut back, and everyone still feels better.  Perhaps the Pilot Wings and the Observer Wings, nothing more, nothing less??  Is that stupid?  I am just throwing it out there.  We need to eliminate Bling, not create more. 

In keeping with the USAF model, there are four basic wings (not counting astronauts or Medico's) Pilots are, well, Pilots; Nav's/WSO's are Officers who can read a map/screen/radar and shoot missiles and other things that can cause severe discomfort and modify terrain (note: WSO/Navs as well as Navy BN's and RIO's get stick-time during AOC training..)  Enlisted Aircrew bunches all of the MOS's together, but Officer Aircrew is for things like AWACS crews and the like.

What Observer Wings should mean is a CAP member who's demonstrated the ability to do everything but actually fly the plane.

[AlphaSigOU]

Not to forget... USAF astronaut mission specialists are awarded the aeronautical rating of 'observer' and wear 'naviguesser' wings as soon as they complete astronaut candidate ('ascan') training. They add the shooting star to the shield if they fly in space.

And don't get any ideas... there ain't gonna be a form 5 for a CAP astronaut!  (You could ask Colonel Boe, though...  )

[BuckeyeDEJ]

What Observer Wings should mean is a CAP member who's demonstrated the ability to do everything but actually fly the plane.

AMEN, BROTHER!

A set of aircrew wings, if proscribed properly, would recognize non-pilot, non-observer aircrew members who have a certain level of training needed to earn a place in the airplane.

On the bling comments: The enamel shields are too much and, in the case of most of them, hardly distinguishable. I would shed no tears if all the shields disappeared, replaced instead by a group of seven or eight major specialty-area badges that look much like the Air Force's specialty badges (maybe the badges could follow the A-staff major areas).

And I remember when there was only one -- communications. Then came ES, then safety... and then the floodgates opened. No one wanted to be left out.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

And don't get any ideas... there ain't gonna be a form 5 for a CAP astronaut!  (You could ask Colonel Boe, though...  )

Think maybe the astronaut attachment will go on Boe's CAP wings?

[ol'fido]

Would using the shield ala the command patch between the wings for non-pilot or non- observer aircrew be too much like the real AF for everybody?

[Flying Pig]

I say no.  Leave it the way it is.  Sorry, but there isnt a whole lot to the Scanner deal.  A Scanner is a luxury postion.  If you can get one, great, if you cant, oh well, we still launch.  I have rarely flown on a mission with a Scanner.  If we are going to have "Aircrew Wings" then lets make the standard the Observer level.  Oh wait..thats what we have now isnt it?  I view a scanner as an observer trainee.

If you really want the wings, then for crying out loud, maybe go the extra mile, get the Observer Training, then get the Wings, and then quietly relocate yourself back to the rear seat as an Observer trained Scanner.  I was a scanner for a while when I started back into CAP.  Maybe a silver enamel barf bag for a badge would be more fitting.

I chalk this up to thr Pre-Solo wing mentallity.  Dont get me started.

[DNall]

I'm saying yes, but only because I think the whole scanner/observer & special skills stuff should be changed up.

The scanner rating has become pretty worthless as technology has come along. And the observer rating hasn't stepped up. I'd propose splitting the current observe curriculum & adding it to scanner. That becomes aircrew. And the more advanced aspects observer, combined with mission commander, and technical skills (archer, SDIS, etc) make up navigator/observer. In both cases, the basic/sr/master cover training levels.

If you just want wings for scanner, that's pretty worthless.

[PaulR]

Leave it alone.  Do we need a badge of some sort for every conceivable function in CAP?  As someone said the Archer folks have a patch and what if Archer goes away?  Why must everyone have some sort of goodywhomper to hang on an already overburdened uniform?  It smacks of the Little League trophy for everyone mentality.  I vote NO.

Exactly!

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Maybe a silver enamel barf bag for a badge would be more fitting.

For whatever reason, I'm picturing it -- sort of like a Monopoly piece with wings.

And the pre-solo wing thing? Silly. Either you soloed or you didn't. Second place isn't a winner (to quote Ricky Bobby: "If you ain't first, you're last"). Those wings are a poster case for "trophies for everyone," and maybe it should be among the first in line to be phased out.

Aircrew member (specialist) wings for back-seaters? DNall suggests that the more advanced observer tasks should combine with technical skills to make up the new observer class. I see a couple of issues with that. Many observers won't ever see ARCHER, just as most units won't ever get an Airvan, so forget that. Many may never get their hands on SDIS, either. Those are specialized tasks, and they require trained specialists. Either one is a back-seat job, not a right-seat one. That looks like a third set of wings to me. Aircrew member.

I think the additional ratings, in his post, should be a combination of training AND flight hours.

[Pumbaa]

I am proposing new wings for aerial photogs.

Thoughts?

[Eclipse]

I say no.  Leave it the way it is.  Sorry, but there isnt a whole lot to the Scanner deal.  A Scanner is a luxury position.  If you can get one, great, if you cant, oh well, we still launch.  I have rarely flown on a mission with a Scanner. 

Try doing a photo mission without a Scanner.

And no, the Observer doesn't take the pictures...

[jb512]

From the viewpoint of someone who is MO qualified and also in AF aircrew school to be a loadmaster, I'll throw my two cents in...

I rejoined CAP specifically to fly as an aircrew member.  I went through all of the MS and MO training and then was left with not much real work to do.  If a pilot needed the right seat, then I usually got bumped to the back.  The training was decent enough to give me an understanding of what to do but it took a lot of assertiveness on my part to be able to do anything up front.  A lot of pilots tended to look at non-pilots as less than capable of occupying that seat.

So, I joined the AF and decided to do it for them.  Not only is the training much more intense and selective, it prepares you to be an actual part of the crew responsible for your specific area.

I think we should award wings to all CAP aircrew positions but make the training a little tougher to get them.  Not only would that weed out the ones who don't need to be there, it would gain a little more trust from the pilots that we can do the job right.

And the percentage of AF enlisted personnel who have been awarded aircrew wings is less than 2% according to the school.

[Eclipse]

If a pilot needed the right seat, then I usually got bumped to the back.

That is so wrong...

[jb512]

If a pilot needed the right seat, then I usually got bumped to the back.

That is so wrong...

I agree.