Wings for aircrews...

[Hawk200]

Since another thread ended up seriously derailed onto this subject, hopefully a thread specific to the discussion can stay on track.

If you think there should be wings for other than pilot and observer, what would you put forth? Would you consolidate some, introduce others, or both?

[cnitas]

Scanner and Archer Operator come to mind. 

[MIKE]

Either consolidate aircrew other than pilots under Observer... Or have wings with AC on them for rated aircrew similar in design to the existing Observer wings.  Don't need different wings with P or S or SO on them for individual ratings.

[jeders]

5 seconds of brainstorming, but how about this. Give basic observer wings fo MS, add the star for MO, ARCHER, and possibly photographer. Add the wreath for hours spent in one of those two or three specialties.

No new emblems, just realigning the ones we already have for new uses that didn't exist when they were created.

[caprr275]

ARCHER already has a patch

[Trung Si Ma]

Use the current Observer Wings like the Ground Team Badge has morphed into:

Basic - Current Observer
Senior - Current Observer plus some sort of Photo Reconnaissance / Damage Assessment Requirements
Master - Senior as above plus ARCHER since it appears the most restrictive of available AC training.

I'd also like to see a change in the Pilot's wings:

Basic - TMP or COP qualified
Senior - MP and COP qualified
Command/Master - MP STAN/EVAL

And I would bring back the droop tip badges for those who earned their wings, but were no longer current.

[RickFranz]

We could do like the pre-solo and solo wings.  Mission scanner would have wings without the triangle and prop but with the circle inside.

[jayleswo]

What's wrong with the way it is now? Mission scanner is pretty easy to get so not sure I would award Observer Wings for that. The old CAPM 50-5 "CAP Observer" Manual was pretty rigorous and I wouldn't want to see those wings awarded to an individual who has just flown back seat a few times. If you want to come up with a separate badge, then maybe. We used to have a Stewardess Badge for Cadets (half a wing), maybe resurrect that for any other aircrew positions. Keep the pilot wings as they are. -- John

[PA Guy]

Leave it alone.  Do we need a badge of some sort for every conceivable function in CAP?  As someone said the Archer folks have a patch and what if Archer goes away?  Why must everyone have some sort of goodywhomper to hang on an already overburdened uniform?  It smacks of the Little League trophy for everyone mentality.  I vote NO.

[bosshawk]

I would support everyone except the pilots be awarded Observer Wings, but renamed Aircrew.  I agree with the comments to the effect that we don't need separate wings for each specialty in the airplane.

For the pilots. leave things alone.  The star and the wreath are patterned after the wings that the Army and the Air Force use.  If I remember correctly, the Navy and the Marines have no "advanced" wings for number of hours and years on flight status.   The star and the wreath designate hours and years on flight status: funny how CAP has followed that tradition.

In both cases, since we seem to like to emulate our big brothers and sisters in Big Blue, lets do it their way.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Observers do take extra training that scanners don't. They (at least, they used to) have to take TWO ECI/AFIADL/HQ AU A4/6 courses as part of their training, as well as everything else to get rated.

(Hey, I took those ECI courses.)

I'd be OK with "aircrew" wings -- they're used in the Air Force for non-pilot, non-navigator, positions. But who'd wear it? Archer operators? Rated scanners? Not quite sure how that would work.

Basically, the aircrew wings would go to anyone else who meets flight-status criteria but aren't pilots or right-seaters.

Make any sense?

[Eclipse]

I would support everyone except the pilots be awarded Observer Wings, but renamed Aircrew.

+1

[Eclipse]

Observers do take extra training that scanners don't. They (at least, they used to) have to take TWO ECI/AFIADL/HQ AU A4/6 courses as part of their training, as well as everything else to get rated.

They used to.

No more ECI tests for Scanner or Observer.

As to the tasking, its different, but they added a bunch of flight-related tasks to scanner a few years ago, so there are that many more by quantity.

Scanner = 30 tasks

Observer = 20 tasks (of course you have to be a Scanner to be start Observer)

[O-Rex]

This has been kicked around before.......

Scanner is not a be-all end-all ES rating: just like there's no badge for UDF.

I offer no sympathy: Want wings? go the extra mile and become an Observer.  Member gets bling, CAP gets a better Aircrew member, a definite win/win.

If you want to get into the flying community, expect some exclusivity (is that a word?) anyway, you'll also find it in the military, i.e., backwards baseball cap, back of the line at chow, and other petty indignities for wingless pilot and aircrew aspirants (now that is a word!)  and nobody there whines about it, they just keep their 'eyes on the prize,' meet the standard, and if they're lucky, basque in the glow with the other winged immortals.

"That which is easily attained has little value. . . . ."

[Eclipse]

Scanner is not a be-all end-all ES rating: just like there's no badge for UDF.

Um, what?  Of course it is.  Who says you're supposed to automatically want to sit right-seat in the airplane?
There are plenty of Mission Scanners performing vital services who have no interest in being Observers, not should they be expected to.

If we had more people interested in doing their job instead of the next job, we'd be a lot better off.

If you want to get into the flying community, expect some exclusivity (is that a word?) anyway, you'll also find it in the military, and nobody there whines about it, they just meet the standard.

Yes, like Loadmasters, who are enlisted aircrew, GIB's, and wear wings.  The have a specific job to do, like Scanners, with no specific career path to ascend to the flight deck.

Being aircrew to start is already an exclusive club, considering the way-too-high number of seniors and cadets who never get near an airplane.

[Timbo]

Being aircrew to start is already an exclusive club, considering the way-too-high number of seniors and cadets who never get near an airplane.

And those that did (like me) who choose to fly for CAP, but only do enough to keep the Wings.  I am not ashamed of it.  If someone needs me to fly, I am more than capable, but I choose to do other things in CAP.  People ask me when pounding the dirt with the ground team, why I am not flying when they see my wings, I tell them "because in CAP we do we want because we want to".  Honestly, flying got old.  I fly for fun, but after my first 10 or so missions, the fun started to go away, and I decided to try the ground team route.  I have more fun walking through the woods, than I did flying a grid.  I also have more finds on the ground than I ever did in the air.  (actual finds, not elt training)     

[O-Rex]

Don't remember the source, but someone did a study and found that a surprisingly small percentage of USAF personnel are actually flight crew.

Many of us who earned other wings in previous incarnations did so under the "Many will enter, few will win" high-percentage washout program, often after being on a waiting list for months or even years to even get into the training.  Even in alot of police flying, Pilots and JAFO's (most of them ex-mil) often have to join, train like everyone else and then walk/ride a beat for a year or two even before seeing an aircraft.  It's not just part of an organizational culture, but has it's purpose: rewarding performance and success.  Many CAP members want to 'talk the talk' of military culture, without understanding the underlying experiences that created the language in the first place.  This is one of them.

That having been said, the CAP program is not that arduous, but nonetheless has a prescribed road to 'winghood' that takes a degree of diligence.  That's no accident.  When we water down the culture and the standard, we become the very amateurs that others accuse us of being.
 
There's all kinds of 'Special Olympics/everyone-who-shows-up-is-a-winner' gratuitous bling that CAP hands out: wings should not be one of them.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Scanner is not a be-all end-all ES rating: just like there's no badge for UDF.

But there is a ground-team badge.

I offer no sympathy: Want wings? go the extra mile and become an Observer.  Member gets bling, CAP gets a better Aircrew member, a definite win/win.

I agree, but should there not be SOME rating for those who have ARCHER chops and who are back-seaters? I don't have ARCHER, and I'm an (ECI-trained, old-school) observer, so I'm not sure I'd mind if there's a second set of non-pilot wings.

And I normally have an issue with bling overload. I agree with O-Rex on the "Special Olympics" bling problem. For instance, there's too many of those enamel shields floating around -- I'd be OK with ditching them all.

[O-Rex]

BuckeyeDEJ:

ARCHER is a different animal altogether, and even SDIS (when the satellite worked) was it's own thing: definitely NOT a 'one week wonder' program. 

I harken it to AWACS and JSTARS aircrew, and some of us actually sent a proposal up the chain that operators be at least scanner qual'd and submitted a drawing of modified obs wings, but with lightning bolts over the triangle where the tri-blade should be (I wish I still had the graphic.)

So you had Scanner as the inital-entry course, then Members could pursue ratings as Mission Pilot, Mission Observer AND/OR Sensor Operator  Made sense, and jived with the current training doctrine.

Of course, it died on the vine. . . . .

Point was that it was to reward advanced training....

Ground Team Badge: I was UDF-qualed for two years before I decided to "go green" (actually blaze-orange) and become a GTM-3, and more recently GTM-2, and eventually will go for GTL.  Not for the bling, but for the opportunity for a leadership role in another facet of ES (consider that GTL is the only CAP "command in the field," so-to-speak.)   

[SilverEagle2]

I am archer and a patch is fine. However, I did get my Pilot Wings first.

Perhaps a set of wings with a "S" overlayed would be enough.

Then you cover all three positions in the plane.