First Sergeant Diamonds

[lordmonar]

Um, I don't think the discussion was about an actual diamond, but the wear of the insignia with the diamond.

Wearing just a diamond must predate me in the program.

I think the idea is for cadets below the rank of C/MSgt to wear a seperate diamond above thier stripes, where it would be on C/MSgt and above. I have seen one of the diamonds in question, they are very small, and fit quite well in that position. However, the entire argument is moot. 52-16 doesn't leave the issue up for debate. It doesn't make much sense, but that's what it says...

So....let's use some leadership inititive and just ignore 52-16 and give our C/SSgts the stupid diamond pip. 

[G+10]

So....let's use some leadership inititive and just ignore 52-16 and give our C/SSgts the stupid diamond pip. 

I think you would be breaking a condition of membership IAW CAPR 39-2:

1-4. Membership Conditions. All persons agree by applying for initial, or membership renewal, to the following continuous conditions of membership:
a. To obey the decisions of those in authority and to follow and adhere to the appropriate regulations and the Constitution and Bylaws of the Civil Air Patrol.

I suppose we could ignore this regulation as well... 


John E. Gniewkowski

Why the word appropriate is in there I can't figure, like there are inappropriate regulations???

[notaNCO forever]

The fact is the separate first sergeant diamonds are not allowed, so even if you think they should be allowed doesn't matter. Rules are rules just because you think there stupid doesn't mean you don't have to follow them.

[AvroArrow]

Just to say, when I quoted Vanguard, I wasn't saying I believe them, I was just merely repeating it to answer someone's question.

Um, I don't think the discussion was about an actual diamond, but the wear of the insignia with the diamond.

Wearing just a diamond must predate me in the program.

No, the topic was made the discuss the purpose of the single, "out of isignia" diamond. You can see the image(s) at the bottom:

RTFM, Bob. The discussion is about this item:



Since ONLY C/MSgt and above cadets may wear 1st Shirt insignia, this item has no place on the uniform.

   

[SarDragon]

PM sent.

[MIKE]

Back in the day, and probably still in some units who have outdated copies of CAPR 52-16, the separate insignia was worn above the grade (But it wasn't even in 39-1 in 1997 either.)... Unlike now, There was no C/SMSgt, and C/CMSgt... and C/MSgt was 6 down, and C/SrA was C/Sgt etc, etc.

[jimmydeanno]

I remember going to the Westover AFB Airshow in like 1999.  The MAWG was working there and my squadron came down from NH.  As I was walking around a C/A1C came up to me and told me that I was required to report in to get my work assignment (I was a C/1st Lt or something). 

After glancing at his nametag, I noticed that this C/A1C had that little diamond above his insignia.  I suppose he was a "First Airman."

There are grade recommendations (requirements in this case) for a reason (actually multiple).  If the person is that high speed and capable, they should have no problem getting to a grade that is appropriate for the position they want.  Stop handing out positions to cadets who haven't made it where they should be yet.

In the AF you won't find a 1st Sergeant that is a SSgt or a TSgt, probably for good reason.

Don't order the single diamond, it doesn't belong anywhere, it is an obsolete item that should be discontinued.

[lordmonar]

So....let's use some leadership inititive and just ignore 52-16 and give our C/SSgts the stupid diamond pip. 

I think you would be breaking a condition of membership IAW CAPR 39-2:

1-4. Membership Conditions. All persons agree by applying for initial, or membership renewal, to the following continuous conditions of membership:
a. To obey the decisions of those in authority and to follow and adhere to the appropriate regulations and the Constitution and Bylaws of the Civil Air Patrol.

I suppose we could ignore this regulation as well... 


John E. Gniewkowski

Why the word appropriate is in there I can't figure, like there are inappropriate regulations???

Because sometimes you find that regulations do not always fit the reality of the situation.  Often the authors of our regulations cannot see beyond their little agenda and do their jobs correctly.

So yes.....I would ignore 52-16 in this case as...if my commander thought that was in gross violation of 39-2...then he would tell me and we would move on or I will get 2b'ed.

As I said long ago......the world will not end if you let a C/TSgt wear a diamond.

[jrsvf]

Eclipse is correct and the regulation is quite clear that only MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt can be first sergeants.  Since the grade insignia is worn as the Air Force with the top three having rockers above the stripes, the little diamond pin is no longer anything but a collector's item.

[jrsvf]

I must ammend my last posting with the following statement:
Which ever of you agree with the statements that National HQ does not know anything because you disagree with the regulations should be ashamed. Expecially if you are Senior Members and Cadet Officers.  The regulations are there to standardize this organization and to insure that each Wing Group and Squadron are doing it the same way.  Where would the military be without regulations.  I shudder to think what these commanders are teaching our cadet cadre by flagrantly choosing which regulations they will abide by and which they will not.  All of you Senior Members took an oath and all of you cadets have an oath as well. You cadets should recite this oath weekly after the pledge of allegiance.  If any of you do not believe in your oath, then I suggest you reconsider your membership in this organization. Review your core values too!
Capt Jim Flaviani, CAP
Deputy Group Commander, Group 4, GAWG

[Eclipse]

jrsvf - the issue here is the various publications, regulations, and manuals which are published as being exclusionary of other publications, regulations and manuals, yet contain contradictions or conflicts, forcing members to make subject local judgments.

This discussion is a good example - 52-16 says the 1Sgt wears the diamond, and Vanguard makes the insignia, yet 39-1 says its power is exclusive and does not contain authorization for the diamond-laden insignia.

You should also not confuse the rhetoric on this discussion board with how these members comport themselves in person.

[jrsvf]

Point taken sir...Has anyone emailed National HQ about these inconsistencies or questions.  I know Susie Parker and her staff are always helpful in clarifying the uniform regulations and it's vagaries. I do know that they are working on a re-write and the uniform board, meeting soon, will most probably make more changes. Until everyone finally makes up their mind though, there will be inconsistencies.  National will always welcome your emails and will always reply.
Semper Vi!

[helper]

Back in the day, and probably still in some units who have outdated copies of CAPR 52-16, the separate insignia was worn above the grade (But it wasn't even in 39-1 in 1997 either.)... Unlike now, There was no C/SMSgt, and C/CMSgt... and C/MSgt was 6 down, and C/SrA was C/Sgt etc, etc.

Another web site that shows the "1st sgt" diamond above 6 stripes! It may clear up (or not) the confusion about a SSgt or TSgt being a 1st sgt.   

http://militarybest.com/ciairpade.html

[arajca]

Back in the day, and probably still in some units who have outdated copies of CAPR 52-16, the separate insignia was worn above the grade (But it wasn't even in 39-1 in 1997 either.)... Unlike now, There was no C/SMSgt, and C/CMSgt... and C/MSgt was 6 down, and C/SrA was C/Sgt etc, etc.

Another web site that shows the "1st sgt" diamond above 6 stripes! It may clear up (or not) the confusion about a SSgt or TSgt being a 1st sgt.   

http://militarybest.com/ciairpade.html

That is entirely irrelevent. It has no official standing. The C/WO or C/FO - depending on when you were in - gold pip has not been used for 20+ years. BTW, they call it the Cadet First Officer. Six down hasn't been used for at least 10+ years.

[MIKE]

Uh... We had gold pip C/FOs and 6 down C/MSgt up until the late '90s 'cause I was a C/MSgt during the transition in Aug of 1999 and a C/2d Lt in 2000.

[jimmydeanno]

Uh... We had gold pip C/FOs and 6 down C/MSgt up until the late '90s 'cause I was a C/MSgt during the transition in Aug of 1999 and a C/2d Lt in 2000.

Yeah, I was a C/FO in 1999.  Definitely a gold pip. C/MSgt Stripes definitely had 6 down then too.  New cadet insignia didn't come about (IIRC) until 1999.  I got kind of aggrevated me too because that was around the time when they ditched the C/FO and introduced the Armstrong and the super sergeants.  We had four of us that had all earned our Mitchells at the same time.  I was the only one that tried to get to C/2d Lt only to have completed those requirements at the time when everyone got the automatic bump from C/FO to C/2d Lt.  Worked out OK though.  Ahhh, the drama of the typical high-schooler