First Sergeant Diamonds

[AvroArrow]

Alright, I promise you that I've looked in the 39-1. I swear that I searched, googled, and scoured for this answer to no avail.

Right. I've seen 1sg Diamonds on the Hock and Vanguard and, according to Vanguard, they go on the right collar for First Sergeants who're not a Msg-CMSgt. But I've never heard of this before. So why is the diamond available?

http://www.thehock.com/shop/largerimage.php?prod_id=219
http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_395_396&products_id=7020

Avro 

[Eclipse]

Did you try the Knowledgebase?

http://tinyurl.com/4mp68x

Its an oversight in 39-1.  The diamonds are approved for wear in 52-16.

[RickFranz]

Back in the old days when the Master Sgt had 6 stripes going down you could just pin the diamond at the top of it and there you go First Sgt.  Since MSgt now has 5 down and 1 up there is no real use for the pin on diamond.

[AvroArrow]

Did you try the Knowledgebase?

http://tinyurl.com/4mp68x

Its an oversight in 39-1.  The diamonds are approved for wear in 52-16.

The link doesn't work.

[IceNine]

capnhq.custhelp.com

Search "first sergeant"  you will see "wearing the first sergeant diamond"

[Eclipse]

From the KB:

One cadet member of a cadet or composite squadron may be appointed to fill the position of First Sergeant and wear the diamond on his/her grade insignia. Cadets who are serving as the unit's first sergeant may purchase a chevron with the first sergeant's diamond screened between the upper and lower rockers of the top three NCO chevrons.

See CAP REGULATION 52-16 CADET PROGRAM MANAGEMENT 1 OCTOBER 2006

2-4. Cadet Promotions.
e. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. The only grades authorized are those shown in Figure 2-3. However, each squadron may appoint a C/MSgt, C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt to serve as the cadet first sergeant. Cadets serving in this special duty are authorized to wear the first sergeant diamond insignia.

Vanguard/CAPMart has the following cadet grade insignia available:

C/MSgt Chevron, 646G
C/MSgt Chevron with First Sergeant's Diamond, 646GA
C/SMSgt Chevron, 645
C/SMSgt Chevron with First Sergeant's Diamond, 645A
C/CMSgt Chevron, 645B
C/CMSgt Chevron with First Sergeant's Diamond, 645C

[MIKE]

... COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.  Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. NOTE: CAPMart may sell items that are not authorized for wear with the USAF–style or CAP distinctive uniforms. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.

[Eclipse]

This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.

As a matter of fact, it no longer is, considering the various ICL's in effect.

You could also make the argument that 39-1 is a manual, while 52-16 is a regulation, therefore the "R" trumps the "M", since "R" is higher in the alphabet than "M".   
(no, I have nothing to substantiate that opinion)

[JC004]

Did you try the Knowledgebase?

http://tinyurl.com/4mp68x

Its an oversight in 39-1.  The diamonds are approved for wear in 52-16.

Oversight in 39-1?!  Impossible!

[DNall]

Back in the old days when the Master Sgt had 6 stripes going down you could just pin the diamond at the top of it and there you go First Sgt.  Since MSgt now has 5 down and 1 up there is no real use for the pin on diamond.

Unless you are putting a sub-MSgt in the position, with the assumption that they're capable & you got no one else but need the job done.

[arajca]

Back in the old days when the Master Sgt had 6 stripes going down you could just pin the diamond at the top of it and there you go First Sgt.  Since MSgt now has 5 down and 1 up there is no real use for the pin on diamond.

Unless you are putting a sub-MSgt in the position, with the assumption that they're capable & you got no one else but need the job done.

However, by regulation, if a cadet is not a C/MSgt - C/CMSgt, they cannot be a first sergeant, so they cannot wear the diamond. So there is no use for the diamond by itself.

As for the oversight in 39-1, the KB has been saying that for the past two versions. If they truly meant to put it in the latest version, why didn't they correct the oversight from the previous version? Also, while the KB can clarify a reg, it cannot over rule a reg. In this case authorizing something that was excluded from an restricted manual.

[notaNCO forever]

Were does it say you have to at least be a C/Msgt to be a 1st Sargent.

[arajca]

Were does it say you have to at least be a C/Msgt to be a 1st Sargent.

CAP REGULATION 52-16 CADET PROGRAM MANAGEMENT 1 OCTOBER 2006

2-4. Cadet Promotions.
e. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. The only grades authorized are those shown in Figure 2-3. However, each squadron may appoint a C/MSgt, C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt to serve as the cadet first sergeant. Cadets serving in this special duty are authorized to wear the first sergeant diamond insignia.

[notaNCO forever]

Thanks I didn't realize that it was in the regs. Are squadron doesn't have a first Sargent so I was sure about the grade restrictions on it.

[DNall]

news to me also & I got a master rating in the stuff.

[MIKE]

^ Epic Phail. 

[DNall]

  I got no issue admitting when I'm wrong or don't know something.

[AvroArrow]

so... what's the point of the diamond if no one can wear it...

[lordmonar]

so... what's the point of the diamond if no one can wear it...

Prior to the current issue of 52-16...there was no mention of first sergents.  The position existed in the form of the insignia but no one was authorised it by 39-1.  KB said you could wear it...but it was subject to endless debate if KB was authoritative or not.

When the current 52-16 was issued....it formally stated that first sergeants existed and that you could appoint C/MSgts-C/CMSgts to the position and they could wear the diamond.  We still had debate if 52-16 could override 39-1 and we still had the problem about if C/TSgts and below could serve as first sergeants....and if they could do the job but not get the title and the insignia.....why was vanguard still selling the stand alone diamond.

So......

If you are a 100% by the regs ....no one can wear the diamonds as it is not in 39-1.....but then you have to deal with conflicting regs.

Bottom line.....the world will not end if you give a diamond to a C/Amn or even a C/AB....but you will have to put up with a some flack time to time.

[arajca]

IMHO, the reason Vanguard is still selling the diamond is because they had a lot left over when the AF switched to the current MSgt insignia. Remember, there a caveat on CAPMart and the Bookstore - they sold some items that were not authorized for wear on the uniform. I recall seeing this on the cadet grade insignia page, where the diamond was located.

[AvroArrow]

alright. Thanks, guys

But... what is KB

[AlphaSigOU]

alright. Thanks, guys

But... what is KB

KnowledgeBase.

[SarDragon]

alright. Thanks, guys

But... what is KB

The Knowledgebase.

[Cecil DP]

so... what's the point of the diamond if no one can wear it...

First Sergeant is a "Position" not a grade. Therefore a cadet who is not a MAster Sergeant or above can be appointed to the position and allowed to wear the diamond.

[IceNine]

^ First Sergeant is a Position, that requires certain Grade to be appointed.

The quote is above so I  need not repost it

[DC]

It is a common held belief that a cadet's rank does not limit them to certain positions. In most cases this is true, but 52-16 is very clear, the position is limited to Cadet Senior NCOs.

There is no argument against 52-16 unless you can find a regulation that says otherwise, dated more recently than the latest version of 52-16.

Personally I disagree with this, but you cannot argue with a crystal clear regualtion. Next time 52-16 is up for review (probably next month, they haven't changed anything in a few weeks.  ) it can be brought up.

But, if you don't have a cadet of suitable grade to fill the position, you probably don't need it.

[hatentx]

It is a common held belief that a cadet's rank does not limit them to certain positions. In most cases this is true, but 52-16 is very clear, the position is limited to Cadet Senior NCOs.

There is no argument against 52-16 unless you can find a regulation that says otherwise, dated more recently than the latest version of 52-16.

Personally I disagree with this, but you cannot argue with a crystal clear regualtion. Next time 52-16 is up for review (probably next month, they haven't changed anything in a few weeks.  ) it can be brought up.

But, if you don't have a cadet of suitable grade to fill the position, you probably don't need it.

Possible but I know in my SQD our Cadet 1SG is a Chief and working on her Mitchell.  Now if she were to be promoted and the next NCO rank we have is a C/Tech then he would "fill" that position although not having the diamond or the title.  We would still have the need for one but would just be more officer heavy than we were.  What would be the remedy for this situation.  Would or c/ Tech  be considers a SEA (Sr. Enlisted Adviser) being that the 1SG is not allowed due to his grade?

[IceNine]

So have the current First Sergeant continue their duties until there is a suitable SNCO

[hatentx]

So she as a cadet officer would have to do a cadet enlisted Job when she could be placed other places and further her cadet PD?

[JayT]

Or just don't have a First Sergeant.

It shouldn't be that important of a position that it's absolutely critical to have.

[hatentx]

In my SQD we actually work the hell out of the 1SG.  She gets in and gets everything going. Conducts Uniform Inspections, responsible for training of basic drill and military C&C.  She is also responsible for making sure the cadets are given the heads up on uniforms for the meetings and upcoming events.  That may be a bit of my fault coming from AD and expecting the 1SG to be responsible for most of that and when something is not to standard I let her know so it can be fixed.  It may just be out SQD though and not as important of a job in others.

[JayT]

In my SQD we actually work the hell out of the 1SG.  She gets in and gets everything going. Conducts Uniform Inspections, responsible for training of basic drill and military C&C.  She is also responsible for making sure the cadets are given the heads up on uniforms for the meetings and upcoming events.  That may be a bit of my fault coming from AD and expecting the 1SG to be responsible for most of that and when something is not to standard I let her know so it can be fixed.  It may just be out SQD though and not as important of a job in others.

The biggest problem is see with a lot of squadrons and activties is that the First Sergeant is treated as the most important cadet at the activity, above the other staff (IE, Flight Sergeants and Flight Commanders)

I agree that that a First Sergeant should be worked, but he/she really isn't in the Chain of Command, so I think we do our cadets a disservice by teaching them incorrectly that they are.

[hatentx]

As the SR NCO of the SQD she would be responsible for all the training and such when it comes to that.  She is responsible for making sure that her subordinates are doing correctly.  She is in the proses of training a new Flight SGT so she is over his shoulder most of the time.  She also insures that her NCO Support is correct that way they are doing correct as well.  In the RM it would work almost the same way.  The 1SG may not be the most important position in the SQD but the 1SG should be important when it comes to training and issue of the cadet enlisted.  We try to mimic the RM as much as possible in that aspect. 

Again that may be some of my doing as I go to her when I see things that are needing attention other than the simple things I can do an on the spot correction.  If she was not around I would go to the flight SGT but being that he is VERY NEW and just made cadet tech he has enough on his plate thus far. 

[arajca]

What about going through the chain of command? My practice, supported by the sqdn commander is to inform the cadet commander and let the cadet chain deal with it, unless it's a minor issue i.e. ribbons backwards, etc. If it's a major issue and cannot wait, we deal with it, then inform the cadet commander.

[hatentx]

Our Cadet commander is AWOL... okay not really but he has been gone due to summer schedule and visitation and such.  The other cadet Officer has been out ES officer up until when ever I can get back into the swing of things.  He is also the only SET we had so he is more often than not teaching something to someone.  So to the 1SG so that the Cadets are handling everything.  I see it as the 1SG responsibilities to ensure training as the Cadet Commander would deal with the running of the Cadet program. 

You know I see your point and I am going to have to ask the DCC how she wants everything to run.  I havent seen her for a while either between both of our schedules.

[JayT]

Our Cadet commander is AWOL... okay not really but he has been gone due to summer schedule and visitation and such.  The other cadet Officer has been out ES officer up until when ever I can get back into the swing of things.  He is also the only SET we had so he is more often than not teaching something to someone.  So to the 1SG so that the Cadets are handling everything.  I see it as the 1SG responsibilities to ensure training as the Cadet Commander would deal with the running of the Cadet program. 

You know I see your point and I am going to have to ask the DCC how she wants everything to run.  I havent seen her for a while either between both of our schedules.

So then make the First Sergeant the C/CC....

[hatentx]

Yeah well now that school is starting again the c/ Maj is back and the c/ 1LT (the SET) is around as well.  Who knows by time I get back with my school and field problems there will be brand new cadets anyways with my luck.  Just when I started to learn there names. lol

[DC]

Why not just get the C/TSgt to promote? Maybe convince the C/CMSgt to hold off on the Mitchell for a month or two, and train the C/TSgt into the position, then promote them both, and give the new C/MSgt the diamonds.

If, for whatever reason the C/TSgt cannot promote, them make them the Cadet Deputy Commander, and have them do the 1stSgt job.

[lordmonar]

Why not just get the C/TSgt to promote? Maybe convince the C/CMSgt to hold off on the Mitchell for a month or two, and train the C/TSgt into the position, then promote them both, and give the new C/MSgt the diamonds.

If, for whatever reason the C/TSgt cannot promote, them make them the Cadet Deputy Commander, and have them do the 1stSgt job.

Good idea on the first one....absolutly not on the second on.

Here's and idea....let's just ignore 52-16 on this particular issue.

If you need a first sergeant apoint someon to the job regardless of rank.......if you got the diamons let them wear them (dispite 39-1).

I know it is a radical idea......but sometiems we just have to say ...this reg is stupid and move on.

Flame on!

[hatentx]

Waiting for the Uniform Nazi's...........


I dont see it as a huge deal if the c/TSGT holds the position and doenst wear the Diamond.  I think I was just  feeling froggy the other night and wanted something to entertain me.  lol  Sorry

[MIKE]

Do we need to post CAPR 52-16 2-4. e. again, with emphasis?  There is no room for interpretation... the position is open to cadet SNCOs ONLY.

[lordmonar]

Do we need to post CAPR 52-16 2-4. e. again, with emphasis?  There is no room for interpretation... the position is open to cadet SNCOs ONLY.

Sorry Mike....but the regulation makes not sense.

You can appoint a C/TSgt to the position of C/Commander...but not to the position of C/First Sergeant?

[IceNine]

^Pretty much

[SarDragon]

Our Cadet commander is AWOL... okay not really but he has been gone due to summer schedule and visitation and such.  The other cadet Officer has been out ES officer up until when ever I can get back into the swing of things.  He is also the only SET we had so he is more often than not teaching something to someone.  So to the 1SG so that the Cadets are handling everything.  I see it as the 1SG responsibilities to ensure training as the Cadet Commander would deal with the running of the Cadet program. 

You know I see your point and I am going to have to ask the DCC how she wants everything to run.  I havent seen her for a while either between both of our schedules.

IMHO, the SET should be evaluating, not teaching. YMMV.

[ßτε]

IMHO, the SET should be evaluating, not teaching. YMMV.

I was thinking that, too.

[DC]

Our Cadet commander is AWOL... okay not really but he has been gone due to summer schedule and visitation and such.  The other cadet Officer has been out ES officer up until when ever I can get back into the swing of things.  He is also the only SET we had so he is more often than not teaching something to someone.  So to the 1SG so that the Cadets are handling everything.  I see it as the 1SG responsibilities to ensure training as the Cadet Commander would deal with the running of the Cadet program. 

You know I see your point and I am going to have to ask the DCC how she wants everything to run.  I havent seen her for a while either between both of our schedules.

IMHO, the SET should be evaluating, not teaching. YMMV.

But logically the SET would more experienced than the others, so to me it is logical that they teach. Ideally you would have enough people certified to have one group teach and one group evaluating, but this is not always the case.

[SJFedor]

Why not just get the C/TSgt to promote? Maybe convince the C/CMSgt to hold off on the Mitchell for a month or two, and train the C/TSgt into the position, then promote them both, and give the new C/MSgt the diamonds.

If, for whatever reason the C/TSgt cannot promote, them make them the Cadet Deputy Commander, and have them do the 1stSgt job.

Wait...you seriously want someone to hold off on progression in the cadet program, just so you can wait till the next person in line is a SNCO?

You should NEVER be encouraging a cadet to not progress in the program. Ever. Regardless of the circumstances.

All else fails, and the 1SG promotes to officer level, they can still function in the role of a 1SG, just minus the title. Call them an adjunctant or whatever you need to.

[Eclipse]

But logically the SET would more experienced than the others, so to me it is logical that they teach.

Except that if the SET is actually teaching things incorrectly, there is no check-and-balance to stop the perpetuation of an incorrect practice.

On the ES side, a lot of wings prohibit the instructor from being the SET as well.

Ideally you would have enough people certified to have one group teach and one group evaluating, but this is not always the case.

Ideally, yes, in real-world CAP, good luck, which makes the latter above generally a practical impossibility.   

[356cadet]

They're also used if the squadron is out of actual 1st Ranks. At least, that's what my squadron does.

[DC]

They're also used if the squadron is out of actual 1st Ranks. At least, that's what my squadron does.

How? Do you put the diamond next to their stripes?

[AvroArrow]

They're also used if the squadron is out of actual 1st Ranks. At least, that's what my squadron does.

How? Do you put the diamond next to their stripes?

According to Vanguard, you wear your grade on the left collar, and the diamond on the right.

[SarDragon]

Suuurrrre. Walk over, my friend, I've got a great deal on a bridge. 

Exactly how authoritative do you think Vanguard is with respect to uniform regs?

[DC]

They're also used if the squadron is out of actual 1st Ranks. At least, that's what my squadron does.

How? Do you put the diamond next to their stripes?

According to Vanguard, you wear your grade on the left collar, and the diamond on the right.

Think about that statement.

When did CAP's third party supplier supercede CAPM 39-1?

[lordmonar]

 

[SarDragon]

Well, well, well.

I decided to look at CAPM 39-1, and the Vanguard product description. It seems that Vanguard hasn't caught up with this ICL:

Cadet Enlisted Grade Insignia. Effective 10 July 2007, cadet enlisted members are now authorized to wear grade insignia on both collars or lapels of the Air Force service coat or light blue shirt. The CAP cutout will no longer be worn. Mandatory wear date for this change is 1 March 2008.

When the cadets were wearing grade insignia only on the right hand side, the Vanguard description was correct. Now the diamond, if authorized, would be worn on both sides. AvroArrow's interpretation was flawed.

And just for the record, nowhere am I advocating the diamond's use, since there are no longer occasions for its wear.

[Eclipse]

And just for the record, nowhere am I advocating the diamond's use, since there are no longer occasions for its wear.

?

If you're the First shirt, you wear the diamond.

What other "occasion" do you need?

[SarDragon]

RTFM, Bob. The discussion is about this item:



Since ONLY C/MSgt and above cadets may wear 1st Shirt insignia, this item has no place on the uniform.

   

[Eclipse]

Um, I don't think the discussion was about an actual diamond, but the wear of the insignia with the diamond.

Wearing just a diamond must predate me in the program.

[DC]

Um, I don't think the discussion was about an actual diamond, but the wear of the insignia with the diamond.

Wearing just a diamond must predate me in the program.

I think the idea is for cadets below the rank of C/MSgt to wear a seperate diamond above thier stripes, where it would be on C/MSgt and above. I have seen one of the diamonds in question, they are very small, and fit quite well in that position. However, the entire argument is moot. 52-16 doesn't leave the issue up for debate. It doesn't make much sense, but that's what it says...

[MIKE]

It makes a lot of sense... You're just used to grade being meaningless doodads which are not tied to position, authority or appropriate levels of responsibility.

[lordmonar]

Um, I don't think the discussion was about an actual diamond, but the wear of the insignia with the diamond.

Wearing just a diamond must predate me in the program.

I think the idea is for cadets below the rank of C/MSgt to wear a seperate diamond above thier stripes, where it would be on C/MSgt and above. I have seen one of the diamonds in question, they are very small, and fit quite well in that position. However, the entire argument is moot. 52-16 doesn't leave the issue up for debate. It doesn't make much sense, but that's what it says...

So....let's use some leadership inititive and just ignore 52-16 and give our C/SSgts the stupid diamond pip. 

[G+10]

So....let's use some leadership inititive and just ignore 52-16 and give our C/SSgts the stupid diamond pip. 

I think you would be breaking a condition of membership IAW CAPR 39-2:

1-4. Membership Conditions. All persons agree by applying for initial, or membership renewal, to the following continuous conditions of membership:
a. To obey the decisions of those in authority and to follow and adhere to the appropriate regulations and the Constitution and Bylaws of the Civil Air Patrol.

I suppose we could ignore this regulation as well... 


John E. Gniewkowski

Why the word appropriate is in there I can't figure, like there are inappropriate regulations???

[notaNCO forever]

The fact is the separate first sergeant diamonds are not allowed, so even if you think they should be allowed doesn't matter. Rules are rules just because you think there stupid doesn't mean you don't have to follow them.

[AvroArrow]

Just to say, when I quoted Vanguard, I wasn't saying I believe them, I was just merely repeating it to answer someone's question.

Um, I don't think the discussion was about an actual diamond, but the wear of the insignia with the diamond.

Wearing just a diamond must predate me in the program.

No, the topic was made the discuss the purpose of the single, "out of isignia" diamond. You can see the image(s) at the bottom:

RTFM, Bob. The discussion is about this item:



Since ONLY C/MSgt and above cadets may wear 1st Shirt insignia, this item has no place on the uniform.

   

[SarDragon]

PM sent.

[MIKE]

Back in the day, and probably still in some units who have outdated copies of CAPR 52-16, the separate insignia was worn above the grade (But it wasn't even in 39-1 in 1997 either.)... Unlike now, There was no C/SMSgt, and C/CMSgt... and C/MSgt was 6 down, and C/SrA was C/Sgt etc, etc.

[jimmydeanno]

I remember going to the Westover AFB Airshow in like 1999.  The MAWG was working there and my squadron came down from NH.  As I was walking around a C/A1C came up to me and told me that I was required to report in to get my work assignment (I was a C/1st Lt or something). 

After glancing at his nametag, I noticed that this C/A1C had that little diamond above his insignia.  I suppose he was a "First Airman."

There are grade recommendations (requirements in this case) for a reason (actually multiple).  If the person is that high speed and capable, they should have no problem getting to a grade that is appropriate for the position they want.  Stop handing out positions to cadets who haven't made it where they should be yet.

In the AF you won't find a 1st Sergeant that is a SSgt or a TSgt, probably for good reason.

Don't order the single diamond, it doesn't belong anywhere, it is an obsolete item that should be discontinued.

[lordmonar]

So....let's use some leadership inititive and just ignore 52-16 and give our C/SSgts the stupid diamond pip. 

I think you would be breaking a condition of membership IAW CAPR 39-2:

1-4. Membership Conditions. All persons agree by applying for initial, or membership renewal, to the following continuous conditions of membership:
a. To obey the decisions of those in authority and to follow and adhere to the appropriate regulations and the Constitution and Bylaws of the Civil Air Patrol.

I suppose we could ignore this regulation as well... 


John E. Gniewkowski

Why the word appropriate is in there I can't figure, like there are inappropriate regulations???

Because sometimes you find that regulations do not always fit the reality of the situation.  Often the authors of our regulations cannot see beyond their little agenda and do their jobs correctly.

So yes.....I would ignore 52-16 in this case as...if my commander thought that was in gross violation of 39-2...then he would tell me and we would move on or I will get 2b'ed.

As I said long ago......the world will not end if you let a C/TSgt wear a diamond.

[jrsvf]

Eclipse is correct and the regulation is quite clear that only MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt can be first sergeants.  Since the grade insignia is worn as the Air Force with the top three having rockers above the stripes, the little diamond pin is no longer anything but a collector's item.

[jrsvf]

I must ammend my last posting with the following statement:
Which ever of you agree with the statements that National HQ does not know anything because you disagree with the regulations should be ashamed. Expecially if you are Senior Members and Cadet Officers.  The regulations are there to standardize this organization and to insure that each Wing Group and Squadron are doing it the same way.  Where would the military be without regulations.  I shudder to think what these commanders are teaching our cadet cadre by flagrantly choosing which regulations they will abide by and which they will not.  All of you Senior Members took an oath and all of you cadets have an oath as well. You cadets should recite this oath weekly after the pledge of allegiance.  If any of you do not believe in your oath, then I suggest you reconsider your membership in this organization. Review your core values too!
Capt Jim Flaviani, CAP
Deputy Group Commander, Group 4, GAWG

[Eclipse]

jrsvf - the issue here is the various publications, regulations, and manuals which are published as being exclusionary of other publications, regulations and manuals, yet contain contradictions or conflicts, forcing members to make subject local judgments.

This discussion is a good example - 52-16 says the 1Sgt wears the diamond, and Vanguard makes the insignia, yet 39-1 says its power is exclusive and does not contain authorization for the diamond-laden insignia.

You should also not confuse the rhetoric on this discussion board with how these members comport themselves in person.

[jrsvf]

Point taken sir...Has anyone emailed National HQ about these inconsistencies or questions.  I know Susie Parker and her staff are always helpful in clarifying the uniform regulations and it's vagaries. I do know that they are working on a re-write and the uniform board, meeting soon, will most probably make more changes. Until everyone finally makes up their mind though, there will be inconsistencies.  National will always welcome your emails and will always reply.
Semper Vi!

[helper]

Back in the day, and probably still in some units who have outdated copies of CAPR 52-16, the separate insignia was worn above the grade (But it wasn't even in 39-1 in 1997 either.)... Unlike now, There was no C/SMSgt, and C/CMSgt... and C/MSgt was 6 down, and C/SrA was C/Sgt etc, etc.

Another web site that shows the "1st sgt" diamond above 6 stripes! It may clear up (or not) the confusion about a SSgt or TSgt being a 1st sgt.   

http://militarybest.com/ciairpade.html

[arajca]

Back in the day, and probably still in some units who have outdated copies of CAPR 52-16, the separate insignia was worn above the grade (But it wasn't even in 39-1 in 1997 either.)... Unlike now, There was no C/SMSgt, and C/CMSgt... and C/MSgt was 6 down, and C/SrA was C/Sgt etc, etc.

Another web site that shows the "1st sgt" diamond above 6 stripes! It may clear up (or not) the confusion about a SSgt or TSgt being a 1st sgt.   

http://militarybest.com/ciairpade.html

That is entirely irrelevent. It has no official standing. The C/WO or C/FO - depending on when you were in - gold pip has not been used for 20+ years. BTW, they call it the Cadet First Officer. Six down hasn't been used for at least 10+ years.

[MIKE]

Uh... We had gold pip C/FOs and 6 down C/MSgt up until the late '90s 'cause I was a C/MSgt during the transition in Aug of 1999 and a C/2d Lt in 2000.

[jimmydeanno]

Uh... We had gold pip C/FOs and 6 down C/MSgt up until the late '90s 'cause I was a C/MSgt during the transition in Aug of 1999 and a C/2d Lt in 2000.

Yeah, I was a C/FO in 1999.  Definitely a gold pip. C/MSgt Stripes definitely had 6 down then too.  New cadet insignia didn't come about (IIRC) until 1999.  I got kind of aggrevated me too because that was around the time when they ditched the C/FO and introduced the Armstrong and the super sergeants.  We had four of us that had all earned our Mitchells at the same time.  I was the only one that tried to get to C/2d Lt only to have completed those requirements at the time when everyone got the automatic bump from C/FO to C/2d Lt.  Worked out OK though.  Ahhh, the drama of the typical high-schooler