State Adjutant General Awards KSWG a Ribbon

[Hawk200]

I think we should follow AF rules. But if we start allowing state awards, what next? Local city awards? County awards? Boy Scout awards?

That's a little extreme. I don't personally know of any city or county government that even produces such a thing. You want to wear Boy Scout awards, there's an easy option there.

The lowest decs available are at the state. There isn't any type of military organization that's lower.
To even it out, we could reduce our ribbons to a point of practicality. Right now for any branch that offers a Professional Military Education type of course, there's one ribbon. That's it. Got another course of the same kind, just advanced? You get to put a device on that ribbon. It's not a case of do this school, get a ribbon. Do another school, get another ribbon, and so on. That is where CAP is out of control.

Some other things: A. Scot Crossfield award. I can appreciate that Crossfield was a pioneer. Nothing against him. But why do we have an award for AE? As it is, as an AE officer, you get a badge. Your probably going to have to take the AEPSM eventually, most likely as part of your job. Why? cause you have to test others, and teach AE. Since it's a specialty track, your Leadership ribbon eventually ends up with a silver star on, when you obtain your Master rating. And then you get the Crossfield award. Four separate awardings for a single specialty track. Now what does the admin guy get? See the imbalance?

Another one: Cadet orientation pilot ribbon. Why? When you're flying cadets, it's a mission, you're not paying for it. Free flight time. But if you fly 50 cadets, you get a ribbon. Why?

Command service ribbon? Granted it came before the AF made up their command badge, but we always talk about following their lead (even though we don't do it). Ditch it, follow the AF method.

That's just the member (any menber can get) and senior side examples.

Fewer decs increases the prestige. When everyone has the same thing, no one has anything special. A few that everyone gets, not a problem. A few that not everyone has provides balance.

[mikeylikey]

^ Well said HAWK!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[arajca]

A minor point of clarification on the Crossfield Award. It pre-dates the AE badge and was (still is) used to recognize those who earned the Master rating in the least appreciated mission in CAP.

[DNall]

To tell a CAP member that they can not wear an award presented to them by the National Guard, is insane.

How so? If a TAG presents a state commendation to a reservist of any service, that can't be worn. They may help the state, but at no point do they ever answer to the state in any capacity. That's exactly the same situation CAP is in. It's not a big deal. The TAG should just recommend/award appropriate mil or federal decs. State decs are for state troops, federal decs are for fed folks - which is where CAP falls.

There is a group that wants everyone to think we are semi-military.  With that, we should follow the military lead.  OK.....lets follow the lead.  So CAP members can wear any and all ribbons, badges and awards presented by any National Guard, but must remove them if on an AFAM longer than 30 days.  That makes sense right?!?!  Thats how the NG works......you wear your state awards, but must remove them when going on AD for training or extended duty?  Am I so far off base here.  Heck.....

Actually, yes, you are off base there. It would be have to remove corporate decs if on AFAM over 30 days, state decs would still not be authorized, cause you are NEVER on state duty. The corp could make rules for wear of other things (such as state awards), but those would have to be approved by air staff (as state awards designs are approved by NGB).

[davedove]

As far as I'm concerned, if you earned it, wear it. I don't care what it is. "In writing by competent military authority" with the addition of "or civil service equivalent" would be just fine for me. I hate telling people that since it's not Air Force, they can't wear it. Especially if the dec they have takes a lot more for the recognition.

Technically, if a person received a Presidential Medal of Freedom for anything other than military service, he couldn't wear it on his uniform.  To me, that's just ridiculous.

At present, CAP rules for decs are almost as bad as the rules for Fizzbin. (A virtual cigar to anyone who gets it!)

Star Trek, the Original Series, "A Piece of the Action".  Now where's my cigar.

[BlueLakes1]

To tell a CAP member that they can not wear an award presented to them by the National Guard, is insane.

How so? If a TAG presents a state commendation to a reservist of any service, that can't be worn. They may help the state, but at no point do they ever answer to the state in any capacity. That's exactly the same situation CAP is in. It's not a big deal. The TAG should just recommend/award appropriate mil or federal decs. State decs are for state troops, federal decs are for fed folks - which is where CAP falls.

The Kentucky Wing is the "Unit of the Civil Air Patrol" under the Kentucky Department of Military Affairs (TAG), and KYWG receives funding and missions from TAG (ref. Kentucky Revised Statutes, Title V, Chapter 36.230 thru 36.245), and there have been state awards given by TAG to CAP members for missions performed. Since the wing receives funding from TAG (and KYWG's not the only wing that does) they DO answer to the state in some capacity.

[isuhawkeye]

CAP continues to amaze me.  The organization has such an inconsistent, and often distorted view of itself.  No wonder it struggles

[DNall]

The Kentucky Wing is the "Unit of the Civil Air Patrol" under the Kentucky Department of Military Affairs (TAG), and KYWG receives funding and missions from TAG (ref. Kentucky Revised Statutes, Title V, Chapter 36.230 thru 36.245), and there have been state awards given by TAG to CAP members for missions performed. Since the wing receives funding from TAG (and KYWG's not the only wing that does) they DO answer to the state in some capacity.

No it isn't. The commonwealth of KY can't make (legal) law that places a federal resource under their command. KY WG reports to NHQ, which up thru the chain reports to Congress. There are no exceptions to that.

KY, like a few other states, has worked out an MOU that makes it possible for the state to pass both funding & missions direct to the Wing, but these are still corporate missions that must be approved by the NOC. It's just a streamlined version of what happens in every other state. There is no transfer of authority.

CAP continues to amaze me.  The organization has such an inconsistent, and often distorted view of itself.  No wonder it struggles

Some of that is self imposed and some is not.

[mikeylikey]

CAP is not a AF reserve, AF NG or AF AD anything.  We are civilians, who happen to get funding through the AF. 

Don't equate CAP to being any more than what it really is.  A club that has airplanes and vans, and gets those resources from the AF. 

Too many people would like to think we are some kind of Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, legally we are not.  Even when we are an AFAM, we still don't get the protections, rights and privileges a brand new Airman gets his first day at Basic.  We may get federal benefits, but no AF or DOD benefits here.

WE are not military Officers (most of us anyway), and should be allowed to wear a decoration presented to us by our state.  I can find no reference to CAP being a Reserve of the USAF, thus the rules should not apply. 

I think some people are just jealous that other members worked their buts off and was recognized by their State for it.  Get over it people. 

[JayT]

CAP is not a AF reserve, AF NG or AF AD anything.  We are civilians, who happen to get funding through the AF. 

Don't equate CAP to being any more than what it really is.  A club that has airplanes and vans, and gets those resources from the AF. 

Too many people would like to think we are some kind of Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, legally we are not.  Even when we are an AFAM, we still don't get the protections, rights and privileges a brand new Airman gets his first day at Basic.  We may get federal benefits, but no AF or DOD benefits here.

WE are not military Officers (most of us anyway), and should be allowed to wear a decoration presented to us by our state.  I can find no reference to CAP being a Reserve of the USAF, thus the rules should not apply. 

I think some people are just jealous that other members worked their buts off and was recognized by their State for it.  Get over it people. 

I agree with you up the point where you say people are jealious.

[DNall]

CAP is not a AF reserve, AF NG or AF AD anything.  We are civilians, who happen to get funding through the AF.

CAP members are not any of those things, and okay CAP the org is not exactly either. It is however a (semi) govt entity funded thru the AF as a federal resource, and does answer to Congress.

The rest is a fairly simple misunderstanding by some folks.

CAP answers to the federal Congress, and no one can assume that authority from Congress w/o their permission. The Federal AF is not granting that authority over CAP to any state. Therefore, rules for what can be worn on the AF uniform track with AFRes/AD, not ANG.

Regardless of what may be more just, that's the rules & there's no debating them with the Air Staff.

As far as jealous, obviously I'm really not. I think it's great TAGs are giving awards to these folks. I just wish they'd go with federal awards rather than state. And as far as fed civilian awards, that needs an adjustment, as do several other similar detail items, all of which require Air Staff approval. I don't personally view any of that as a real big priority compared to the rest of the things on their desks right now.

[skymaster]

That WAS the assumption.  But a TAG is also a federal general officer and entitled to make federal awards.

Actually, MAY also be a federal general officer - it's not required.  If the TAG dosen't meet the standards they don't have to extend federal recognition.

MD's TAG before last was a federal 2 star and a MD 3 star.  If he wanted to wear US brass, he had to ditch the 3rd star.

     In Georgia, our Adjutant General was a former Air National Guard Captain, who had been elected to the State Senate. When, during the process of redistricting, his family's home location fell into a different district, the Governor appointed him as a Lieutenant General (3 star) of the State of Georgia. Even though he is only currently an ANG Major, he chooses to wear an AF blue Major General (2 star) service dress uniform with metal grade, brushed metal AF nameplate, with State of Georgia buttons and "GA" cutouts in place of the U.S. cutouts. For a utility uniform, he wears the Army-style ACU with blue lettering for the name and branch tape, and his branch tape says "GEORGIA" instead of "U.S. AIR FORCE". Interestingly, his Assistant Adjutant General's "Army-style" duty uniform IS the "Georgia State Defense Force" uniform, right down to the GSDF patch, "GA" cutouts, and different buttons from the U.S. Army variant.
     Also, interestingly, by tradition, ALL Georgia Wing Commanders, going back to the very first one (LTC Winship Nunnally) also hold appointments as "Aide-de-camp to the Governor", and hold concurrent grade with the state as LTC or COL during their tenure as Wing Commander.  His Excellency, the Governor has had the authority to grant pretty much whatever grade he wishes, to whomever he wishes, since 1733, when that authority was granted by HRH George II, to General James Oglethorpe. (As a side note, the first "Wing Patch" worn by Georgia Wing aviators as a command badge on the AAF-style flight jacket, said "GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", as the Georgia Wing CAP was also concurrently the GSAG through the war years - the "GA" one that most people think of as a Wing patch was not redesigned until 1950, to go with the new AF Blue uniform that CAP was scheduled to adopt).

[Garibaldi]

(As a side note, the first "Wing Patch" worn by Georgia Wing aviators as a command badge on the AAF-style flight jacket, said "GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", as the Georgia Wing CAP was also concurrently the GSAG through the war years - the "GA" one that most people think of as a Wing patch was not redesigned until 1950, to go with the new AF Blue uniform that CAP was scheduled to adopt).

PLEASE don't get me started on the GAWG patch. I proudly wore the red, white, and blue GA patch for 5 years and despite a desperate grass-roots campaign, the patch was changed to what it is today.

Here's the original, from my "collection":


Here's the subdued:


It's even been up in space! Astronaut Eric Boe (former Atlanta II cadet) took one with him on the shuttle!:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are a lot of ANG/ARNG types who have two ribbon racks...one for when they're in State service, and one for Federal service.

Personally, I think it's kind of silly.  If a BG/MG awards me a ribbon, to me that's competent military authority, whether state or federal.

But yet others (not me) could say that awards from the Coast Guard are not "competent military authority" since they are not part of DoD...and I know plenty of CG types who would rightly (and loudly) dispute that.

What about awards from USPHS/NOAA Commissioned Corps?   If a CAP member has distinguished service in either of those two uniformed services, what's the problem with wearing those marks of distinction?  Or NASA?  How much more "aerospace" can one get than that?

Yes, I know, 39-1, with its Texas-sized holes of (il)logic.

This is one of those times when I think having five armed forces and two uniformed services, all with their own blingage rules, is kind of inane.

In the UK, it doesn't matter if you're Army, RN, RAF or RM...a medal is a medal.  Army and RN aviators are just as eligible for the DFC as the RAF, and RAF pilots flying on exchange with the RN are just as eligible for the naval Distinguished Service Cross.

[spacecommand]

The resurrection of a 4 year thread!

[skymaster]

(As a side note, the first "Wing Patch" worn by Georgia Wing aviators as a command badge on the AAF-style flight jacket, said "GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", as the Georgia Wing CAP was also concurrently the GSAG through the war years - the "GA" one that most people think of as a Wing patch was not redesigned until 1950, to go with the new AF Blue uniform that CAP was scheduled to adopt).

PLEASE don't get me started on the GAWG patch. I proudly wore the red, white, and blue GA patch for 5 years and despite a desperate grass-roots campaign, the patch was changed to what it is today.

Here's the original, from my "collection":


Here's the subdued:


It's even been up in space! Astronaut Eric Boe (former Atlanta II cadet) took one with him on the shuttle!:

Here is a photo of our first Wing Commander, LTC Winship Nunnally (on the left) (a personal friend of Gill Robb Wilson, BTW), along with the Adjutant General of Georgia, and another GAWG officer, on a tour of inspection of CAP mission base at Albany Airport in 1942. Georgia Wing members of the era wore authorised flight clothing patches that said "Georgia State Defense Corps", "Georgia State Guard", or "Georgia State Air Guard", because the Wing Commander at the time, though a CAP officer, was appointed by the Governor (Herman Talmadge) as Wing Commander. GAWG CAP, was, for wartime purposes, a branch of the Georgia State Guard, because GAWG CAP originally WAS the Georgia State Air Guard.


Here is a photo of one of the variant patches worn by GAWG members until the GAWG patch that you mentioned was approved on 27 November 1950.


The GAWG patch shown below was the authorised wing patch from 1950 until 1992.


In 1992 it was replaced by this one.


And then this one in 2011.


My source for the historical information come from personal interviews of 2 former GAWG Commanders, and information provided by Winship Nunnally's widow several years ago. Also, anyone familiar with the Talmadge family's history in the State of Georgia know that Governor Herman Talmadge's "requests" and appointments at the time carried the force of law, and were to be followed without question. While there was a National Civil Air Patrol, Governor Talmadge made it VERY clear to all his contemporaries that GAWG CAP was HIS Wing. Also, remember that Nunnally was a very influential man in military and commercial circles of the era (he was an American pilot who served in the Royal Air Force back in the 1930s, and was a friend, not only of Gill Rob Wilson, but also a neighbour and friend of Gen. Lucius D. Clay, AND President of the famous Nunnally Candy Company, not to mention being on the boards of directors of Coca-Cola, National Bank and Trust, and Delta Airlines).

[LGM30GMCC]

Here's something a lot of folks don't seem to consider when it comes to 'all state awards all the time' and likely at least one reason Big AF (and reserve) don't allow them.

You can say 'Where them after all other ribbons' but how do you determine the order of precedence? Is a CA award higher than a OK award? Are they equal from two different states? There are different rules for different services, can you imagine adding 50 states to the mix and trying to determine the correct order?

And what about awards that use the same ribbon? Is that a CA Legion of Merit or an OK Achievement Award (just examples, probably not real awards)?

NG units flip control between state and federal service. Whole sets of laws (10 vs 39) and chains of command. It's even more convoluted than the combatant command or AEF structure. CAP does not. It just goes from DOD to Corp, but it never falls under administrative control (ADCON) of the states. ADCON remains federal at all times.

Personally, even though I am AD, I would be fine if CAP only wore federal awards awarded for CAP service and did not wear military ribbons ever.

[skymaster]

     From the previous posts concerning Georgia Wing's first commander, LTC Winship Nunnally, some might think that his appointment was a purely political selection by Governor Talmadge, but few things could be further from the truth. Even though he came from "comfortable" beginnings, he earned every position of leadership he ever held, both in business, and CAP.  One of his contemporaries called him "the right officer, at the right place, at the right time". His natural leadership skills as wing commander, from 1 December 1941 till 15 October 1945, reflected positively on the organisation as a whole, and in fact, helped convince influential Congressmen of the era to continue Civil Air Patrol as a postwar organisation, at a time when many similar wartime organisations were being scaled back or eliminated.  During his concurrent time as a Georgia State Air Guard officer, he was also an advocate of an independent USAF as a separate branch of service coequal with the Army and Navy, based on his experience with serving in the Royal Air Force. While he was only one of many who was an advocate for these things, he was definitely a very persuasive individual, and actually played a larger role in the creation of a postwar Air Force, and a postwar Civil Air Patrol, than many give him credit for.

Here is a photo of our wartime CAP commander as an RAF Officer in 1931:


And here is LTC Nunnally as GAWG Commander in 1942.


     An important lesson that we can all take from LTC Nunnally's example, is that, just because some might say to themselves "oh, we are "just" CAP", that other people ARE watching, and if you continually set a professional example, good things will eventually follow. (Including maybe eventual changes to the regulations to allow State awards to be awarded to CAP members in the future). If you don't wish to be treated as the "red headed stepchild", maybe not acting like one might be a good start!