State Adjutant General Awards KSWG a Ribbon

[RickFranz]

Recently the KS State Adjutant General awarded some members of CAP with a ribbon for our service in 3 different natural events.  I have searched the reg's and this forum.  I have read and heard all kinds of different opinions on wheather we can wear them, and if so what would be order of precedent

We had quite a few folks receive this award I think it would be a snub if we could not wear it.

[isuhawkeye]

General P told me I should wear mine. 

This board is adamant that they should not be worn.

I have seen some people wear theirs.  I never did


Hows that for an answer for you

[cnitas]

This is a little vague.
What ribbon?  Is it a state award or federal award?

If it is a state award, then sorry, it is not authorized for wear, no matter how cool. 
While General P may be right- Just wear it and nobody will care enough to say anything, but integrity says - do what is right, even when nobody is watching.

I happen to believe we should change this rule since we are working closer with the Guard than ever before, but I don't get to make those decisions.

[MIKE]

This is a little vague.
What ribbon?  Is it a state award or federal award?

Even if it was a federal award, a lot of members would not be able to wear it according to CAPR 39-3.

[cnitas]

Not wearing federally earned awards that would be worn if you entered into the miliary service, including our Air Medals that were awarded in WW2 is so moronically stupid (it is stupid beyond words) that I believe that that blurb in 39-3 is obviously a mistake made in haste, particularly in light of the fact that there is conflicting guidance in 39-1, as well as AF regulations pertaining to awarding the marksman ribbon to CAP members.

Was there ever a National Board meeting that discussed taking this right away from the membership or did it just show up in the pub. one day?

[Hawk200]

Not wearing federally earned awards that would be worn if you entered into the miliary service, including our Air Medals that were awarded in WW2 is so moronically stupid (it is stupid beyond words) that I believe that that blurb in 39-3 is obviously a mistake made in haste, particularly in light of the fact that there is conflicting guidance in 39-1, as well as AF regulations pertaining to awarding the marksman ribbon to CAP members.

Someone going active can't even wear a state decoration.

Just because a TAG awards it, doesn't mean it's a federal dec. Many states have their own decoration equivalent to Federal ones, and then there are decs with no Federal equivalent.

As to Federal decs on CAP uniforms, if it's awarded by "competent military authority" or someone in an equivalent position, I'm all for it.

Was there ever a National Board meeting that discussed taking this right away from the membership or did it just show up in the pub. one day?

Probably the latter. There are numerous oversights and dropouts in our pubs. When someone was "rewriting" the pub, they probably said "Ah, that's not important, no one has those anyway". And yes, the membership lost something. That's the disconnect between the Powers That Be, and those of us on the ground doing the mission.

[RickFranz]

Just a clear as mud 

But I guess that's where I started.

Thanks

[cnitas]

Someone going active can't even wear a state decoration.

Just because a TAG awards it, doesn't mean it's a federal dec. Many states have their own decoration equivalent to Federal ones, and then there are decs with no Federal equivalent.

As to Federal decs on CAP uniforms, if it's awarded by "competent military authority" or someone in an equivalent position, I'm all for it.

I get that.  State Decs are not allowed on the Federal uniform, or on CAP uniforms.  I believe we should try and change that.

My point is that 'if' you are somehow awarded a Humanitarian Service medal by the Active AF for serving along side of them in a CAP capacity, the 39-1 nonsense would tell you not to wear it.   Same goes for the Aerial Achievement medal, Air Medal, etc.

These are all medals that if you subsequently joined the Active AF, you would wear, but you would still not technically be allowed to wear them on the CAP uniform. 
Think dual member - AF/CAP.  Your 'real' AF uniform would include the Air medal-earned in CAP.  The CAP uniform would not have the Air medal 'Because' it was earned in CAP and not the AF 

This certianly cannot be the intended function of that note in the regulation.

[DNall]

The regs are pretty clear that you cannot wear state awards under any circumstance. We are a federal org. Ex - TAG can give all the ribbons he wants to reservists for assistance during a disaster, they're never going to wear them. That should remain the case.

As far as federal awards. It's a strict interpretation of the regs that they cannot be worn unless earned while in military service & by competent authority, versus earned as a CAP member. Obviously that was not the intention. It was written that way because CAP was not receiving federal decs so it became an oversight. Most people believe this should be addressed to better pave the way for exceptional actions to be recognized as appropriate by the AF when they see fit. As well as maybe a reg change on their end to lay out the process for doing so thru CAP-USAF.

[ddelaney103]

As far as federal awards. It's a strict interpretation of the regs that they cannot be worn unless earned while in military service & by competent authority, versus earned as a CAP member.

I'd like to see a reference for this, as I don't see it in my reading of the reg.

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.  Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.  See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence..

As long as they were awarded "in writing by competent military authority," you should be OK, even if you were a civilian at the time.

In rereading the regs, it's looks like CAP is more relaxed than the AF in the wear of US civilian awards.  Both CAPM 39-1 and AFI 36-2903 include a slot in the order of precedence for "United States Nonmilitary Decorations" (both after the Navy "E" Ribbon) but the AFI has a note that is missing in the CAPM:

...Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Which would seem to indicate that civilian medals from the fed can be worn in CAP regardless of your status when you earned them.

However, since CAPM 39-1 is silent on the subject of state medals, you're pretty much out of luck.

[DNall]

39-3 has that note. It is the controlling regulation. 39-1 merely directs how such awards may or may not be displayed.

[davedove]

...Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Which would seem to indicate that civilian medals from the fed can be worn in CAP regardless of your status when you earned them.

That is the relevant quote and it specifically says "earned while in military service".  So, if you were not in the military when you earned the medal, you cannot wear it on the uniform.

I don't like what it says, and I don't think it ought to be that way, but it is the current reg.

[ddelaney103]

...Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

Which would seem to indicate that civilian medals from the fed can be worn in CAP regardless of your status when you earned them.

That is the relevant quote and it specifically says "earned while in military service".  So, if you were not in the military when you earned the medal, you cannot wear it on the uniform.

I don't like what it says, and I don't think it ought to be that way, but it is the current reg.

Oh, so this isn't a 39-1 question, but a 39-3 question?  Yes, I can see the problem.

The line I quoted was from the AFI, so I didn't think it applied.  CAP needs to avoid putting the regs in different ways in multiple documents.

[RiverAux]

While I disagree with the interpretations presented here regarding federal decorations, it is pretty clear that state awards are not allowed to be worn. 

[Cecil DP]

There is obviously a discrepancy between the Manual and the Regulation.  They should be reconciled and rewritten. It would only take a transposition of the line
"awarded by competent military authority" from the manual to the reg, and the elimination of the line "for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States"
CAPM 39-1.5-4
Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform
provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force,
Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding
service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. .

CAPR 39-3.A.d(b)
b. Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for
wear on the US Air Force uniform may be worn on the
CAP uniform when earned through qualification and
awarded by competent authority to a member for service
performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the
United States or its allies. (Foreign decorations, ribbons,
badges, etc., awarded in writing to a member not in the
Armed Forces of the United States may also be worn if
approved by National Headquarters.) Aeronautical
badges, emblems, insignia, ribbons, etc., given by a
foreign government, or agency, as souvenirs or emblems
of friendship do not qualify as earned awards and will not
be worn on the CAP uniform. All cases where doubt
exists as to the propriety of a badge, medal or other
device being worn will be referred to National
Headquarters for decision.

[jb512]

It should be rewritten to allow any ribbon/medal awarded by the RM to a member of CAP at anytime to be worn.  I still have reservations about state awards.

[DNall]

^agreed, but that's unfortunately not what it currently says. I believe the issue has been raised to NB members, but as of yet hasn't been acted on. I would say it isn't a high priority, but then look at all the other crap they're messing with.

[billford1]

Even if I never get to wear the ribbon I'm pleased at least for having received the Certificate from the Kansas State National Guard that went with the ribbon. Roger and Aubrey Eaton still haven't got theirs. They were on a team that went right out by where the sight was.

[RiverAux]

No matter how the uniform issue sorts itself out, the recognition of CAP members by the state military department is a very good thing.

[jb512]

No matter how the uniform issue sorts itself out, the recognition of CAP members by the state military department is a very good thing.

It's good.  As an auxiliary, us and the CGAUX are probably at about the same par as a state military when you look at the big picture.

[RickFranz]

Even if I never get to wear the ribbon I'm pleased at least for having received the Certificate from the Kansas State National Guard that went with the ribbon. Roger and Aubrey Eaton still haven't got theirs. They were on a team that went right out by where the sight was.

There was a mess up in the paperwork...  I think the rest  of them will be awarded at the Wing Conference on the 31 of May.

I also think that it was really nice that the TAG gave us the Certificates and Ribbons.

[Hawk200]

It should be rewritten to allow any ribbon/medal awarded by the RM to a member of CAP at anytime to be worn.  I still have reservations about state awards.

Why? Many state awards cover things that Federal awards don't, or else the Federal awards are too generalized for. There are some states where it's harder and takes longer to get a state dec than it would a more generic Federal award.

There are a few state awards I don't care for, but for the most part they are very valid decorations.

[mikeylikey]

^ That is a very valid reason why CAP members should be allowed to wear any and all STATE, FEDERAL Awards.  CAP is NOT the USAF (as pointed out here countless times) so why are we following an outdated lead from the AF?!?!

NHQ says "great job in your state, but don't you even think about putting that award on your uniform".  Maybe until USAF says OK on the AF-style, but right now we should be wearing any and all awards on all CAP corporate styles. 

Hell, on my CAP corporates I can now wear a white or back pistol belt, ranger whistles, ascot, ranger tabs and all that other junk bling.  Why not a freaking award or decoration "Awarded by competent military authority"??

[Gunner C]

Hell, on my CAP corporates I can now wear a white or back pistol belt, ranger whistles, ascot, ranger tabs and all that other junk bling.  Why not a freaking award or decoration "Awarded by competent military authority"??

There's no reason why CAP shouldn't allow the wear of state awards and decorations.  Here's a question:  I was awarded my jump wings as a member of the NG.  Is NHQ going to tell me that I can't wear them?

The guard is part of the total force - as long as one is not on AD (which we're not) we should be able to wear anything that was awarded by competent military authority.  Seems kinda dumb that you can wear a decoration awarded by Saudi Arabia but not by the State of California.

GC

[mikeylikey]

Seems kinda dumb that you can wear a decoration awarded by Saudi Arabia but not by the State of California.

GC

It's not dumb, it is a slap in the face by NHQ to all those members of the National Guard.  They are saying their service is not as good as an Active Duty Service member. 

I already sent this proposal up the chain of Command and it went no where.  I don't know what "I" can do.  I have three state ribbons that I would like to wear myself, and accepted the fact that while on AD I can't.  But come on, CAP is in no way close to being even remotely military.  I can't see why they would not allow this.  I think it has something to do with people at NHQ not wanting to wear less "real" bling than the general membership.  You know if the staff at NHQ (volunteers of course, like you and me) were awarded some ribbon or decoration from the state of Alabama, this issue would change overnight, and they would be wearing that award the next morning. 

[DeputyDog]

Here's a question:  I was awarded my jump wings as a member of the NG.  Is NHQ going to tell me that I can't wear them?

No. The jump wings are not a state award or a state decoration.

Seems kinda dumb that you can wear a decoration awarded by Saudi Arabia but not by the State of California.

+1

[RiverAux]

The thing to keep in mind is that CAP is a separate organization from the National Guard.  They don't recognize our decorations so we are under no obligation to recognize theirs.   

In any case this is not a slap in the face by CAP.  CAP is just following Air Force policy in regards to the AF-style uniforms.  Sure, we've got the option of allowing them on the corporate uniforms, but that just makes our uniform regulations even more complicated. 

Personally, I would be in favor of recognizing any earned state military decoration and if we were to ever clean up the discrepancies already mentioned in regard to military decorations that should be fixed at that time.

[mikeylikey]

In any case this is not a slap in the face by CAP.  CAP is just following Air Force policy in regards to the AF-style uniforms.  Sure, we've got the option of allowing them on the corporate uniforms, but that just makes our uniform regulations even more complicated. 

If I am not mistaken, the Air National Guard wear AF Uniforms, that have FEDERAL symbols all over them (reference the US cutouts, etc).  No where on a National Guard uniform does it say what state you are from.  (In my opinion, National Guard members should replace the US Air Force branch tapes with state specific tapes, but that is for another discussion). 

I don't think I have ever read of a proposal for State decorations to be worn on the AF style......you?  So that is a slap in the face, by not even pushing it up to be voted on.  We are adding JUNK (Ranger bling) to the AF style, I say screw that, lets get real decorations on their first.

The AF allows State decorations to be worn on the AF uniform, when those members are not on Active Duty.  Lets do the same for CAP.  Oh ya......we are never on Active Duty, so we will never have to worry about taking ribbons off or putting them on like Guardsman do, so it actually is easier for us.   

[BlueLakes1]

Oh, so this isn't a 39-1 question, but a 39-3 question?  Yes, I can see the problem.

The line I quoted was from the AFI, so I didn't think it applied.  CAP needs to avoid putting the regs in different ways in multiple documents.

I'd disagree, this is a 39-1 issue, not a 39-3 issue.

The title of 39-3, "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates" says what the regulation is there to do - provide the rules of the road for the "who, what, where, when and why" people or units get decorated. The WEAR of these awards/decorations is a uniform issue, not an award issue, and 39-3 has no governance over uniforms. Indeed, if "how to wear decorations" wasn't really a uniform issue, then why is an entire chapter of CAPM 39-1 (Chapter 5) there to tell you how to wear them? For precedent, note that we follow the precedence of awards chart in CAPM 39-1 Table 5-2, placing the Crossfield ribbon ahead of the Yeager, in contradiction to the precedence listed in CAPR 39-3. Remember, "COMPLICANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY" (CAPM 39-1 Chapter 1-1).

The main problem with trying to tie military awards, and their wear, into 39-3 is that the award of an Air Medal, Purple Heart, or any other USAF or other military branch decoration has nothing to do with the "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates"; a CAP regulation has no governance over whether or not they may be awarded to a CAP member. The direction for its wear then must come from the uniform manual, which does allow the wear, providing that the award was made, in writing, by competent military authority.

Incidentally, AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Awards and Decorations Program, makes absolutely no mention of how to wear the decorations that it provides for. That's all in Chapter 4 of AFI 36-2903, Dress and Appearance of Air Force Personnel. CAP should follow their lead and put everything in one place, rather than having the two conflict.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Clarifying the mud:

1.  Air National Guardsmen CAN wear state awards of the AF uniform.  

2.  ANG'ers who enter onto FEDERAL active duty (longer than 30 days, I think) must remove their state awards.

3.  AF Reservists CANNOT wear state awards on their AF uniforms at any time.

4.  CAP, as a federal asset, falls under the "AF Reserve" rule.

5.  If you were given a state award, and you subsequently join a NG or State Defense Force unit (even in another state) the award is yours to wear, just not on the CAP uniform.

6.  I believe that CAP regulations authorize wear of FEDERAL awards, given by military authority for CAP service.  The fact that CAP, in Federal service is a part of the Air Force cannot be ignored.  The regulation, while confusing and contradictory, is intended to rule out the wear of courtesy awards and badges, just as in the case of foreign wings given as momentoes or souvenirs.  An award given for superiour performance on an AFAM by the Air Force is a valid award and CAN be worn on the uniform.  

7.  To argue with the point made in Item 6 above is to defend a stupid interpretation of the regulations, and therefore will mark you as a stupid person.

8.  Stupidity is not good, and should be avoided if possible.  

[isuhawkeye]

4.  CAP, as a federal asset, falls under the "AF Reserve" rule

Only while operating on a federal Mission Number.

The old title 10/36 debate, and that implies that CAP is more like the guard than the reserves

[JayT]

Oh, so this isn't a 39-1 question, but a 39-3 question?  Yes, I can see the problem.

The line I quoted was from the AFI, so I didn't think it applied.  CAP needs to avoid putting the regs in different ways in multiple documents.

I'd disagree, this is a 39-1 issue, not a 39-3 issue.

The title of 39-3, "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates" says what the regulation is there to do - provide the rules of the road for the "who, what, where, when and why" people or units get decorated. The WEAR of these awards/decorations is a uniform issue, not an award issue, and 39-3 has no governance over uniforms. Indeed, if "how to wear decorations" wasn't really a uniform issue, then why is an entire chapter of CAPM 39-1 (Chapter 5) there to tell you how to wear them? For precedent, note that we follow the precedence of awards chart in CAPM 39-1 Table 5-2, placing the Crossfield ribbon ahead of the Yeager, in contradiction to the precedence listed in CAPR 39-3. Remember, "COMPLICANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY" (CAPM 39-1 Chapter 1-1).

The main problem with trying to tie military awards, and their wear, into 39-3 is that the award of an Air Medal, Purple Heart, or any other USAF or other military branch decoration has nothing to do with the "Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates"; a CAP regulation has no governance over whether or not they may be awarded to a CAP member. The direction for its wear then must come from the uniform manual, which does allow the wear, providing that the award was made, in writing, by competent military authority.

Incidentally, AFI 36-2803, The Air Force Awards and Decorations Program, makes absolutely no mention of how to wear the decorations that it provides for. That's all in Chapter 4 of AFI 36-2903, Dress and Appearance of Air Force Personnel. CAP should follow their lead and put everything in one place, rather than having the two conflict.

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

[BlueLakes1]

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

Huh?

[JayT]

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

Huh?

Last I checked, 39-3 didn't just cover ribbons and medals.

[BlueLakes1]

Yeah, but 30-3 also covers none uniform awards.

Huh?

Last I checked, 39-3 didn't just cover ribbons and medals.

You're right, it does cover other awards and decorations that aren't worn. If they're not worn on the uniform, then there's no uniform issue.

[JohnKachenmeister]

4.  CAP, as a federal asset, falls under the "AF Reserve" rule

Only while operating on a federal Mission Number.

The old title 10/36 debate, and that implies that CAP is more like the guard than the reserves

I agree with you.  Unfortunately, National HQ does not.

[DNall]

CAP answers to the federal govt (specifically thru the AF), for which we are required to recognize federal awards. And we answer to the corporation (thru NB/NEC to BoG to Congress), for which we grant organizational awards.

While the corporation may at times authorize missions for a state, those are corporate missions, not state missions. At no time does CAP answer to any state. Specifically, at no time does CAP answer to any state TAG. As such, we do not recognize state awards granted by TAG. It's that simple.

[isuhawkeye]

I can not speak to the Kansas awards, so I apologize for the thread drift, but my award which was awarded by my state's TAG, and was subsequently rejected by this board is in fact a DOD award.  Presented through the Department of the Amy.


http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/CommandersPublicServiceAward.htm




As such it appears to be a "Federal" award.

Just because a TAG awards it don't assume that it is "only a state award"

[JohnKachenmeister]

I can not speak to the Kansas awards, so I apologize for the thread drift, but my award which was awarded by my state's TAG, and was subsequently rejected by this board is in fact a DOD award.  Presented through the Department of the Amy.


http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/CommandersPublicServiceAward.htm




As such it appears to be a "Federal" award.

Just because a TAG awards it don't assume that it is "only a state award"

That WAS the assumption.  But a TAG is also a federal general officer and entitled to make federal awards.

[ddelaney103]

That WAS the assumption.  But a TAG is also a federal general officer and entitled to make federal awards.

Actually, MAY also be a federal general officer - it's not required.  If the TAG dosen't meet the standards they don't have to extend federal recognition.

MD's TAG before last was a federal 2 star and a MD 3 star.  If he wanted to wear US brass, he had to ditch the 3rd star.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I suppose some states could appoint an unqualified officer as the TAG, but I have never heard of any doing so.  I think it is a law that the TAG must be a federally recognized LTC as a minimum, and eligible for promotion to COL.  A state can (and MD did, evidently) add a star on the Governor's authority, but that means that the MD TAG is still a federally-recognized MG.

[Cecil DP]

I suppose some states could appoint an unqualified officer as the TAG, but I have never heard of any doing so.  I think it is a law that the TAG must be a federally recognized LTC as a minimum, and eligible for promotion to COL.  A state can (and MD did, evidently) add a star on the Governor's authority, but that means that the MD TAG is still a federally-recognized MG.

Excerpt from the SC statutes
SECTION 25-1-320. Adjutant General; election and term; chief of staff; salary. [SC ST SEC 25-1-320]

There shall be an Adjutant General elected by the qualified electors of this State at the same time and in the same manner and for the same term of office as other State officials. His rank shall be that of major-general. He shall hold office until his successor is elected and qualifies. He shall be ex officio chief of staff. He shall receive such annual salary as may be provided by the General Assembly.

In other words anyone can run and be the AG in South Carolina.

[DNall]

^ It's the same uniform. He'd just have to ditch the third star if called to federal active duty for over 180 days (may be 120, I don't recall off hand). There are no different qualifications between one & four stars, it's about slots, congressional confirmation, and retirement.

That award by the way is a federal civilian award generally given to civil service employees. It may be worn on a military uniform if awarded for civilian service while also serving in the military. It may not be worn if you got it then later joined the military. It's worn after all military awards.

[ddelaney103]

That award by the way is a federal civilian award generally given to civil service employees. It may be worn on a military uniform if awarded for civilian service while also serving in the military. It may not be worn if you got it then later joined the military. It's worn after all military awards.

In the AF it has to be awarded for military service to wear it on the uniorm.  The rule is mainly for Airmen working at civilian agencies such as CIA and NASA.  DA would be expected to pony up a ArComm or AAM.

[DNall]

Okay, point being if you are not in the military in addition to CAP, then you can't wear fed civilian awards on the CAP uniform, because they would not be authorized on the AF uniform.

If you are in the guard or something in addition to CAP then I guess you could debate if CAP service could be defined at mil service for the purpose of that wear rule. I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure you could get it added to your 2-1 & 214 so you could wear it though.

Speaking of ARCOM, I got one of those about to get approved, and I'm kinda happy about it, even though I won't be around to get it.

[Hawk200]

Speaking of ARCOM, I got one of those about to get approved, and I'm kinda happy about it, even though I won't be around to get it.

School? Or sandbox?  .

The Air Force only required the Good Conduct medal to be formally awarded, but all other medals didn't have that requirement. I don't remember if there was anything similar for the Army. Haven't had time to look it up.

[DNall]

school. AOCS in AL all summer. Rucker next, then sandbox. All in pretty quick succession. Pretty much just 2.5 years on active duty.

[mikeylikey]

Speaking of ARCOM, I got one of those about to get approved, and I'm kinda happy about it, even though I won't be around to get it.

Congrats......

Anyway, I think this whole issue is silly.  CAP needs to allow any and all Awards from State, Federal, tribal and foreign organizations.  We need to recognize our people and that is a simple way of doing it.  As far as debating why we can't wear something, lets focus on who to [censored] at so that we can wear it. 

[DNall]

Thanks 

It does get silly fast, but the rules themselves are pretty simple. If you transfered over from another service to AD AF, could you wear it on AF uniform or not. If not, then it can't be worn on CAP uniform. Simple as that.

Couple exceptions are other service aviation badges. Pilot wings from another service would convert to AF pilot wings, but that can't happen in CAP, so they are specifically auth on CAP. Likewise, marksman badges & the like would convert to AF ribbon, which can't happen for CAP, but the badges are not auth. Some weird CAP rules about other service badges as well - CIB, CAB, CMB, etc that would not be auth on AF uniform, but are allowed in CAP under a grandfather from the old AF reg that got expanded with the new Army badges.

I'm sure I can add a few more layers of complicated for ya if you're really interested. Obviously this is something that needs some work. I'm not sure if wide open everything is the way to go. AF prob needs to be consulted in some capacity on this.

[mikeylikey]

^ See this is the problem we have.  Half the CAP group wants to "play AF", while the other half want to "Play Corporate".  Corporate side says, sure wear whatever on your Corporate uniform, AF sides says, "lets follow USAF lead".  Even then, the AF side of the house still does not follow AF lead.

Face it, CAP is not the AF.  We are so off from being AF it is not funny.  Me personally, I would love to see USAF take over CAP full-time, replace the governing bodies and appoint a USAF General to lead us. I would love to be the USAF Auxiliary, Full-Time.  I would love to see the Corporation disappear. 

To tell a CAP member that they can not wear an award presented to them by the National Guard, is insane.  None of us (except some of us.....) are on AD when we put a CAP uniform on.  We are given no rights by USAF that regular Officers are given.  CAP (and I say this again) is no more military than the Boy Scouts.  There is no UCMJ, and we all pay to serve. 

There is a group that wants everyone to think we are semi-military.  With that, we should follow the military lead.  OK.....lets follow the lead.  So CAP members can wear any and all ribbons, badges and awards presented by any National Guard, but must remove them if on an AFAM longer than 30 days.  That makes sense right?!?!  Thats how the NG works......you wear your state awards, but must remove them when going on AD for training or extended duty?  Am I so far off base here.  Heck.....

[JoeTomasone]

What is amusing here is the contrast to the thread arguing that we shouldn't wear all of our ribbons because there are too many.   

[davedove]

I've never understood why the AF says it has to have been earned for military service.  The Army only requires that it have been awarded by a federal level agency.

But then, I've always felt that all the services should have the same requirements and restrictions, instead of each one doing it's own thing.

[JayT]

^ See this is the problem we have.  Half the CAP group wants to "play AF", while the other half want to "Play Corporate".  Corporate side says, sure wear whatever on your Corporate uniform, AF sides says, "lets follow USAF lead".  Even then, the AF side of the house still does not follow AF lead.

Face it, CAP is not the AF.  We are so off from being AF it is not funny.  Me personally, I would love to see USAF take over CAP full-time, replace the governing bodies and appoint a USAF General to lead us. I would love to be the USAF Auxiliary, Full-Time.  I would love to see the Corporation disappear. 

To tell a CAP member that they can not wear an award presented to them by the National Guard, is insane.  None of us (except some of us.....) are on AD when we put a CAP uniform on.  We are given no rights by USAF that regular Officers are given.  CAP (and I say this again) is no more military than the Boy Scouts.  There is no UCMJ, and we all pay to serve. 

There is a group that wants everyone to think we are semi-military.  With that, we should follow the military lead.  OK.....lets follow the lead.  So CAP members can wear any and all ribbons, badges and awards presented by any National Guard, but must remove them if on an AFAM longer than 30 days.  That makes sense right?!?!  Thats how the NG works......you wear your state awards, but must remove them when going on AD for training or extended duty?  Am I so far off base here.  Heck.....

There's not two, distinct camps in CAP. There might be two, distinct camps on CAPTalk, but I don't believe this forum is a good representation of our membership.

Yes, there are members who want to 'play' Air Force. They want to be awarded Air Force medals for CAP duties that are completely different. There are guys who want to be able to attend Air Force courses, and have BX access, and want to work directly with Air Force units and pretend to be RM officers.

Yes, there are guys who want to ditch the CP and military style uniforms, and wear nothing but the polo shirt, and pretend that they're some sort of super Search and Rescue Agency that answers to no one, not esepcially those military folks with their saluting and pressed shirts.

However, I'd be willing to say almost everyone in this program is inbetween.

We're not the unpaid Air Force Reserve. We're not the Air National Guard. We're a civilian organization that is part of the Air Force, and preforms missions for both the military and civilian agencies.

Would ditching the corporation and making us part of the Air Force with a GO in charge really change anything? I don't think so. The world is a lot different then it was the last time that happened. There's also a number of law and battle that would have to be changed and fought to get that way.

Are ribbons and badges really *that* important?

[JC004]

...
Are ribbons and badges really *that* important?

[Hawk200]

Would ditching the corporation and making us part of the Air Force with a GO in charge really change anything? I don't think so. The world is a lot different then it was the last time that happened. There's also a number of law and battle that would have to be changed and fought to get that way.

That's the way it used to be. And there was probably far more compliance than we have now.

Just got back from an airshow. Didn't have any real issues other than a cadet that I had to address about cutting his hair, and a senior in the CSU lite wearing CAP cutouts pinned to his blue epaulets. It was kind of nice, not having to worry about how we were representing CAP.

Are ribbons and badges really *that* important?

The ribbons and badges themselves? No, they are not. There's a saying (don't know who said it): "A man won't give you his life, but he will sell it to you for a little piece of fabric". It's about recognition that you won't otherwise receive. For our members it's even more important. It's one of the few ways that you show recognition to a select few that know what it means. Even Civil Air Patrol is a brotherhood of sorts (yes, the ladies of CAP are included).

Ribbons are recognition of accomplishments or a history. Badges are about skills. One reason as to why many would like to see a reduction is because there are a great many CAP awards, and to some they don't carry the same weight as a military decoration. Some feel we have far too many, and it cheapens them all. When's the last time that you saw a CAP member with a dec that had to be rather extensively written to get approved? If you've seen one, then when was the time before that? How many decs do we have that any person could be wearing 10, 12, 15 or even 20 by just biding time?

[JayT]

Would ditching the corporation and making us part of the Air Force with a GO in charge really change anything? I don't think so. The world is a lot different then it was the last time that happened. There's also a number of law and battle that would have to be changed and fought to get that way.

That's the way it used to be. And there was probably far more compliance than we have now.

Just got back from an airshow. Didn't have any real issues other than a cadet that I had to address about cutting his hair, and a senior in the CSU lite wearing CAP cutouts pinned to his blue epaulets. It was kind of nice, not having to worry about how we were representing CAP.

Are ribbons and badges really *that* important?

The ribbons and badges themselves? No, they are not. There's a saying (don't know who said it): "A man won't give you his life, but he will sell it to you for a little piece of fabric". It's about recognition that you won't otherwise receive. For our members it's even more important. It's one of the few ways that you show recognition to a select few that know what it means. Even Civil Air Patrol is a brotherhood of sorts (yes, the ladies of CAP are included).

Ribbons are recognition of accomplishments or a history. Badges are about skills. One reason as to why many would like to see a reduction is because there are a great many CAP awards, and to some they don't carry the same weight as a military decoration. Some feel we have far too many, and it cheapens them all. When's the last time that you saw a CAP member with a dec that had to be rather extensively written to get approved? If you've seen one, then when was the time before that? How many decs do we have that any person could be wearing 10, 12, 15 or even 20 by just biding time?

I think what we really need is more regular military mentoring at the Wing, Group, and Squadron level. I don't mean "Hey, I'm a member of CAP and I just happen to be a recruiter in the ANG..........by the way, have you considered dropping out of college to enlist?" (Really happened to me.) I mean an organized program of military personnal, briefed in CAP and CAP regulations, who drop in a few times a year to CAP units.

On ribbons, I do believe we have to many, but I don't think that supplementing them with ANG/NG or SG or Civilian awards is the solution.

[Hawk200]

... I mean an organized program of military personnal, briefed in CAP and CAP regulations, who drop in a few times a year to CAP units.

Personally, I don't see why we can't make them permanent. A few times a year is enough time for bad habits to form when they aren't there.

On ribbons, I do believe we have to many, but I don't think that supplementing them with ANG/NG or SG or Civilian awards is the solution.

I don't think it's really a case of supplementing, it's just removing odd ball clauses that don't really need to be there in the first place. You can wear a few ROTC ribbons which are awarded from a lower organizational level, but state/Federal/civilian decs are ruled out. Why? ROTC award wear is completely temporary. But it's allowed. It just doesn't make sense.

As far as I'm concerned, if you earned it, wear it. I don't care what it is. "In writing by competent military authority" with the addition of "or civil service equivalent" would be just fine for me. I hate telling people that since it's not Air Force, they can't wear it. Especially if the dec they have takes a lot more for the recognition.

At present, CAP rules for decs are almost as bad as the rules for Fizzbin. (A virtual cigar to anyone who gets it!)

[JayT]

... I mean an organized program of military personnal, briefed in CAP and CAP regulations, who drop in a few times a year to CAP units.

Personally, I don't see why we can't make them permanent. A few times a year is enough time for bad habits to form when they aren't there.

On ribbons, I do believe we have to many, but I don't think that supplementing them with ANG/NG or SG or Civilian awards is the solution.

I don't think it's really a case of supplementing, it's just removing odd ball clauses that don't really need to be there in the first place. You can wear a few ROTC ribbons which are awarded from a lower organizational level, but state/Federal/civilian decs are ruled out. Why? ROTC award wear is completely temporary. But it's allowed. It just doesn't make sense.

As far as I'm concerned, if you earned it, wear it. I don't care what it is. "In writing by competent military authority" with the addition of "or civil service equivalent" would be just fine for me. I hate telling people that since it's not Air Force, they can't wear it. Especially if the dec they have takes a lot more for the recognition.

At present, CAP rules for decs are almost as bad as the rules for Fizzbin. (A virtual cigar to anyone who gets it!)

I just have a fear that there's not enough active duty personnal to have people 'permantly' assgined to CAP. I think for now, the best thing would be people.........with some objectivity.

[JayT]

But, back on topic quickly.

I just fear that if we start opening up to everyone's awards, then we're gonna start looking like a bunch of third word generals.

I think we should follow AF rules. But if we start allowing state awards, what next? Local city awards? County awards? Boy Scout awards?

[mikeylikey]

I think we should follow AF rules.

Dang dude.....wearing NG and State Awards would be following AF rules.  The AF says NG members can wear them, just not on AD (for extended periods or training). 

Don't forget NG wears the AF uniform, with regulatory supplements geared toward them. 

CAP should be no different.  Why do WE have to follow AD AF?  Where is it written that what they do we do? 

[Hawk200]

I think we should follow AF rules. But if we start allowing state awards, what next? Local city awards? County awards? Boy Scout awards?

That's a little extreme. I don't personally know of any city or county government that even produces such a thing. You want to wear Boy Scout awards, there's an easy option there.

The lowest decs available are at the state. There isn't any type of military organization that's lower.
To even it out, we could reduce our ribbons to a point of practicality. Right now for any branch that offers a Professional Military Education type of course, there's one ribbon. That's it. Got another course of the same kind, just advanced? You get to put a device on that ribbon. It's not a case of do this school, get a ribbon. Do another school, get another ribbon, and so on. That is where CAP is out of control.

Some other things: A. Scot Crossfield award. I can appreciate that Crossfield was a pioneer. Nothing against him. But why do we have an award for AE? As it is, as an AE officer, you get a badge. Your probably going to have to take the AEPSM eventually, most likely as part of your job. Why? cause you have to test others, and teach AE. Since it's a specialty track, your Leadership ribbon eventually ends up with a silver star on, when you obtain your Master rating. And then you get the Crossfield award. Four separate awardings for a single specialty track. Now what does the admin guy get? See the imbalance?

Another one: Cadet orientation pilot ribbon. Why? When you're flying cadets, it's a mission, you're not paying for it. Free flight time. But if you fly 50 cadets, you get a ribbon. Why?

Command service ribbon? Granted it came before the AF made up their command badge, but we always talk about following their lead (even though we don't do it). Ditch it, follow the AF method.

That's just the member (any menber can get) and senior side examples.

Fewer decs increases the prestige. When everyone has the same thing, no one has anything special. A few that everyone gets, not a problem. A few that not everyone has provides balance.

[mikeylikey]

^ Well said HAWK!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[arajca]

A minor point of clarification on the Crossfield Award. It pre-dates the AE badge and was (still is) used to recognize those who earned the Master rating in the least appreciated mission in CAP.

[DNall]

To tell a CAP member that they can not wear an award presented to them by the National Guard, is insane.

How so? If a TAG presents a state commendation to a reservist of any service, that can't be worn. They may help the state, but at no point do they ever answer to the state in any capacity. That's exactly the same situation CAP is in. It's not a big deal. The TAG should just recommend/award appropriate mil or federal decs. State decs are for state troops, federal decs are for fed folks - which is where CAP falls.

There is a group that wants everyone to think we are semi-military.  With that, we should follow the military lead.  OK.....lets follow the lead.  So CAP members can wear any and all ribbons, badges and awards presented by any National Guard, but must remove them if on an AFAM longer than 30 days.  That makes sense right?!?!  Thats how the NG works......you wear your state awards, but must remove them when going on AD for training or extended duty?  Am I so far off base here.  Heck.....

Actually, yes, you are off base there. It would be have to remove corporate decs if on AFAM over 30 days, state decs would still not be authorized, cause you are NEVER on state duty. The corp could make rules for wear of other things (such as state awards), but those would have to be approved by air staff (as state awards designs are approved by NGB).

[davedove]

As far as I'm concerned, if you earned it, wear it. I don't care what it is. "In writing by competent military authority" with the addition of "or civil service equivalent" would be just fine for me. I hate telling people that since it's not Air Force, they can't wear it. Especially if the dec they have takes a lot more for the recognition.

Technically, if a person received a Presidential Medal of Freedom for anything other than military service, he couldn't wear it on his uniform.  To me, that's just ridiculous.

At present, CAP rules for decs are almost as bad as the rules for Fizzbin. (A virtual cigar to anyone who gets it!)

Star Trek, the Original Series, "A Piece of the Action".  Now where's my cigar.

[BlueLakes1]

To tell a CAP member that they can not wear an award presented to them by the National Guard, is insane.

How so? If a TAG presents a state commendation to a reservist of any service, that can't be worn. They may help the state, but at no point do they ever answer to the state in any capacity. That's exactly the same situation CAP is in. It's not a big deal. The TAG should just recommend/award appropriate mil or federal decs. State decs are for state troops, federal decs are for fed folks - which is where CAP falls.

The Kentucky Wing is the "Unit of the Civil Air Patrol" under the Kentucky Department of Military Affairs (TAG), and KYWG receives funding and missions from TAG (ref. Kentucky Revised Statutes, Title V, Chapter 36.230 thru 36.245), and there have been state awards given by TAG to CAP members for missions performed. Since the wing receives funding from TAG (and KYWG's not the only wing that does) they DO answer to the state in some capacity.

[isuhawkeye]

CAP continues to amaze me.  The organization has such an inconsistent, and often distorted view of itself.  No wonder it struggles

[DNall]

The Kentucky Wing is the "Unit of the Civil Air Patrol" under the Kentucky Department of Military Affairs (TAG), and KYWG receives funding and missions from TAG (ref. Kentucky Revised Statutes, Title V, Chapter 36.230 thru 36.245), and there have been state awards given by TAG to CAP members for missions performed. Since the wing receives funding from TAG (and KYWG's not the only wing that does) they DO answer to the state in some capacity.

No it isn't. The commonwealth of KY can't make (legal) law that places a federal resource under their command. KY WG reports to NHQ, which up thru the chain reports to Congress. There are no exceptions to that.

KY, like a few other states, has worked out an MOU that makes it possible for the state to pass both funding & missions direct to the Wing, but these are still corporate missions that must be approved by the NOC. It's just a streamlined version of what happens in every other state. There is no transfer of authority.

CAP continues to amaze me.  The organization has such an inconsistent, and often distorted view of itself.  No wonder it struggles

Some of that is self imposed and some is not.

[mikeylikey]

CAP is not a AF reserve, AF NG or AF AD anything.  We are civilians, who happen to get funding through the AF. 

Don't equate CAP to being any more than what it really is.  A club that has airplanes and vans, and gets those resources from the AF. 

Too many people would like to think we are some kind of Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, legally we are not.  Even when we are an AFAM, we still don't get the protections, rights and privileges a brand new Airman gets his first day at Basic.  We may get federal benefits, but no AF or DOD benefits here.

WE are not military Officers (most of us anyway), and should be allowed to wear a decoration presented to us by our state.  I can find no reference to CAP being a Reserve of the USAF, thus the rules should not apply. 

I think some people are just jealous that other members worked their buts off and was recognized by their State for it.  Get over it people. 

[JayT]

CAP is not a AF reserve, AF NG or AF AD anything.  We are civilians, who happen to get funding through the AF. 

Don't equate CAP to being any more than what it really is.  A club that has airplanes and vans, and gets those resources from the AF. 

Too many people would like to think we are some kind of Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, legally we are not.  Even when we are an AFAM, we still don't get the protections, rights and privileges a brand new Airman gets his first day at Basic.  We may get federal benefits, but no AF or DOD benefits here.

WE are not military Officers (most of us anyway), and should be allowed to wear a decoration presented to us by our state.  I can find no reference to CAP being a Reserve of the USAF, thus the rules should not apply. 

I think some people are just jealous that other members worked their buts off and was recognized by their State for it.  Get over it people. 

I agree with you up the point where you say people are jealious.

[DNall]

CAP is not a AF reserve, AF NG or AF AD anything.  We are civilians, who happen to get funding through the AF.

CAP members are not any of those things, and okay CAP the org is not exactly either. It is however a (semi) govt entity funded thru the AF as a federal resource, and does answer to Congress.

The rest is a fairly simple misunderstanding by some folks.

CAP answers to the federal Congress, and no one can assume that authority from Congress w/o their permission. The Federal AF is not granting that authority over CAP to any state. Therefore, rules for what can be worn on the AF uniform track with AFRes/AD, not ANG.

Regardless of what may be more just, that's the rules & there's no debating them with the Air Staff.

As far as jealous, obviously I'm really not. I think it's great TAGs are giving awards to these folks. I just wish they'd go with federal awards rather than state. And as far as fed civilian awards, that needs an adjustment, as do several other similar detail items, all of which require Air Staff approval. I don't personally view any of that as a real big priority compared to the rest of the things on their desks right now.

[skymaster]

That WAS the assumption.  But a TAG is also a federal general officer and entitled to make federal awards.

Actually, MAY also be a federal general officer - it's not required.  If the TAG dosen't meet the standards they don't have to extend federal recognition.

MD's TAG before last was a federal 2 star and a MD 3 star.  If he wanted to wear US brass, he had to ditch the 3rd star.

     In Georgia, our Adjutant General was a former Air National Guard Captain, who had been elected to the State Senate. When, during the process of redistricting, his family's home location fell into a different district, the Governor appointed him as a Lieutenant General (3 star) of the State of Georgia. Even though he is only currently an ANG Major, he chooses to wear an AF blue Major General (2 star) service dress uniform with metal grade, brushed metal AF nameplate, with State of Georgia buttons and "GA" cutouts in place of the U.S. cutouts. For a utility uniform, he wears the Army-style ACU with blue lettering for the name and branch tape, and his branch tape says "GEORGIA" instead of "U.S. AIR FORCE". Interestingly, his Assistant Adjutant General's "Army-style" duty uniform IS the "Georgia State Defense Force" uniform, right down to the GSDF patch, "GA" cutouts, and different buttons from the U.S. Army variant.
     Also, interestingly, by tradition, ALL Georgia Wing Commanders, going back to the very first one (LTC Winship Nunnally) also hold appointments as "Aide-de-camp to the Governor", and hold concurrent grade with the state as LTC or COL during their tenure as Wing Commander.  His Excellency, the Governor has had the authority to grant pretty much whatever grade he wishes, to whomever he wishes, since 1733, when that authority was granted by HRH George II, to General James Oglethorpe. (As a side note, the first "Wing Patch" worn by Georgia Wing aviators as a command badge on the AAF-style flight jacket, said "GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", as the Georgia Wing CAP was also concurrently the GSAG through the war years - the "GA" one that most people think of as a Wing patch was not redesigned until 1950, to go with the new AF Blue uniform that CAP was scheduled to adopt).

[Garibaldi]

(As a side note, the first "Wing Patch" worn by Georgia Wing aviators as a command badge on the AAF-style flight jacket, said "GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", as the Georgia Wing CAP was also concurrently the GSAG through the war years - the "GA" one that most people think of as a Wing patch was not redesigned until 1950, to go with the new AF Blue uniform that CAP was scheduled to adopt).

PLEASE don't get me started on the GAWG patch. I proudly wore the red, white, and blue GA patch for 5 years and despite a desperate grass-roots campaign, the patch was changed to what it is today.

Here's the original, from my "collection":


Here's the subdued:


It's even been up in space! Astronaut Eric Boe (former Atlanta II cadet) took one with him on the shuttle!:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are a lot of ANG/ARNG types who have two ribbon racks...one for when they're in State service, and one for Federal service.

Personally, I think it's kind of silly.  If a BG/MG awards me a ribbon, to me that's competent military authority, whether state or federal.

But yet others (not me) could say that awards from the Coast Guard are not "competent military authority" since they are not part of DoD...and I know plenty of CG types who would rightly (and loudly) dispute that.

What about awards from USPHS/NOAA Commissioned Corps?   If a CAP member has distinguished service in either of those two uniformed services, what's the problem with wearing those marks of distinction?  Or NASA?  How much more "aerospace" can one get than that?

Yes, I know, 39-1, with its Texas-sized holes of (il)logic.

This is one of those times when I think having five armed forces and two uniformed services, all with their own blingage rules, is kind of inane.

In the UK, it doesn't matter if you're Army, RN, RAF or RM...a medal is a medal.  Army and RN aviators are just as eligible for the DFC as the RAF, and RAF pilots flying on exchange with the RN are just as eligible for the naval Distinguished Service Cross.

[spacecommand]

The resurrection of a 4 year thread!

[skymaster]

(As a side note, the first "Wing Patch" worn by Georgia Wing aviators as a command badge on the AAF-style flight jacket, said "GEORGIA STATE AIR GUARD", as the Georgia Wing CAP was also concurrently the GSAG through the war years - the "GA" one that most people think of as a Wing patch was not redesigned until 1950, to go with the new AF Blue uniform that CAP was scheduled to adopt).

PLEASE don't get me started on the GAWG patch. I proudly wore the red, white, and blue GA patch for 5 years and despite a desperate grass-roots campaign, the patch was changed to what it is today.

Here's the original, from my "collection":


Here's the subdued:


It's even been up in space! Astronaut Eric Boe (former Atlanta II cadet) took one with him on the shuttle!:

Here is a photo of our first Wing Commander, LTC Winship Nunnally (on the left) (a personal friend of Gill Robb Wilson, BTW), along with the Adjutant General of Georgia, and another GAWG officer, on a tour of inspection of CAP mission base at Albany Airport in 1942. Georgia Wing members of the era wore authorised flight clothing patches that said "Georgia State Defense Corps", "Georgia State Guard", or "Georgia State Air Guard", because the Wing Commander at the time, though a CAP officer, was appointed by the Governor (Herman Talmadge) as Wing Commander. GAWG CAP, was, for wartime purposes, a branch of the Georgia State Guard, because GAWG CAP originally WAS the Georgia State Air Guard.


Here is a photo of one of the variant patches worn by GAWG members until the GAWG patch that you mentioned was approved on 27 November 1950.


The GAWG patch shown below was the authorised wing patch from 1950 until 1992.


In 1992 it was replaced by this one.


And then this one in 2011.


My source for the historical information come from personal interviews of 2 former GAWG Commanders, and information provided by Winship Nunnally's widow several years ago. Also, anyone familiar with the Talmadge family's history in the State of Georgia know that Governor Herman Talmadge's "requests" and appointments at the time carried the force of law, and were to be followed without question. While there was a National Civil Air Patrol, Governor Talmadge made it VERY clear to all his contemporaries that GAWG CAP was HIS Wing. Also, remember that Nunnally was a very influential man in military and commercial circles of the era (he was an American pilot who served in the Royal Air Force back in the 1930s, and was a friend, not only of Gill Rob Wilson, but also a neighbour and friend of Gen. Lucius D. Clay, AND President of the famous Nunnally Candy Company, not to mention being on the boards of directors of Coca-Cola, National Bank and Trust, and Delta Airlines).

[LGM30GMCC]

Here's something a lot of folks don't seem to consider when it comes to 'all state awards all the time' and likely at least one reason Big AF (and reserve) don't allow them.

You can say 'Where them after all other ribbons' but how do you determine the order of precedence? Is a CA award higher than a OK award? Are they equal from two different states? There are different rules for different services, can you imagine adding 50 states to the mix and trying to determine the correct order?

And what about awards that use the same ribbon? Is that a CA Legion of Merit or an OK Achievement Award (just examples, probably not real awards)?

NG units flip control between state and federal service. Whole sets of laws (10 vs 39) and chains of command. It's even more convoluted than the combatant command or AEF structure. CAP does not. It just goes from DOD to Corp, but it never falls under administrative control (ADCON) of the states. ADCON remains federal at all times.

Personally, even though I am AD, I would be fine if CAP only wore federal awards awarded for CAP service and did not wear military ribbons ever.

[skymaster]

     From the previous posts concerning Georgia Wing's first commander, LTC Winship Nunnally, some might think that his appointment was a purely political selection by Governor Talmadge, but few things could be further from the truth. Even though he came from "comfortable" beginnings, he earned every position of leadership he ever held, both in business, and CAP.  One of his contemporaries called him "the right officer, at the right place, at the right time". His natural leadership skills as wing commander, from 1 December 1941 till 15 October 1945, reflected positively on the organisation as a whole, and in fact, helped convince influential Congressmen of the era to continue Civil Air Patrol as a postwar organisation, at a time when many similar wartime organisations were being scaled back or eliminated.  During his concurrent time as a Georgia State Air Guard officer, he was also an advocate of an independent USAF as a separate branch of service coequal with the Army and Navy, based on his experience with serving in the Royal Air Force. While he was only one of many who was an advocate for these things, he was definitely a very persuasive individual, and actually played a larger role in the creation of a postwar Air Force, and a postwar Civil Air Patrol, than many give him credit for.

Here is a photo of our wartime CAP commander as an RAF Officer in 1931:


And here is LTC Nunnally as GAWG Commander in 1942.


     An important lesson that we can all take from LTC Nunnally's example, is that, just because some might say to themselves "oh, we are "just" CAP", that other people ARE watching, and if you continually set a professional example, good things will eventually follow. (Including maybe eventual changes to the regulations to allow State awards to be awarded to CAP members in the future). If you don't wish to be treated as the "red headed stepchild", maybe not acting like one might be a good start!