Distinguished Warfare Medal

[Flying Pig]

So its happened ladies and gents.......

The Marines, who have long been known for their lack of any specialty ribbons and medals have created a UAV Operations Medal.   I was in the Marines when they came out with the Drill Instructor ribbon, MSG and Recruiter Ribbon.   The uproar, believe it or not, was that those ribbons were not needed at all.   This medal is not a UAV service medal, its actually a medal for actions while being a UAV crew, and it ranks above the Bronze Star Medal.

Interesting new world.   I would like to see a medal for the supply tech who filled out a form to make sure the .50cal ammo made it to the front lines!!!

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/mobile/news/2013/02/military-new-medal-for-drone-pilots-outranks-bronze-star-021313

[Pylon]

Just to be clear, the Marines didn't create this.  You should know as well as I do that the Corps hates extra bling.  The DoD created it and it's for all service branches, not just the Marines.  It's also not specific to UAV's -- it's for actions where the individual's life was not at risk (I can't in good conscience say "combat operations"...), so UAV's and Air Force Cyberwarfare and the remote launching of weapons are included according to the Pentagon.   

We're already giving bronze stars to spreadsheet jockeys in theater, so why not make special "combat" awards just for them, too? 

Doesn't change anything for me.  We all know that the grunts in the line companies rarely earn any awards whatsoever, certainly no achievement or commendation medals, for being proficient at their trade while their POG counterparts are much, much more often recognized with awards, masts, and promotions.  And it doesn't matter to us because we know which awards truly matter.  The CAR, the PH, anything with a V on it, Silver Star, Navy (service) Cross, and MOH.  You see somebody with a few ribbons but they include a CAR and a NAM-V, they're likely to get way more first-impression respect than a guy with a stack of 20 ribbons and nothing of note.  So creating these ribbons doesn't change much of anything in my view.  It just perpetuates and exacerbates the situation where grunts get very little recognition and the support roles clean up the awards, meritorious masts, meritorious promotions, lower cutting scores, and the recognition.

Side note: In addition to being a grunt, I am also a small UAV systems operator (RQ-11 Raven-B school graduate).  So I have a tiny bit of the view on both sides of the coin here.

[sardak]

Here is the memo for creation of the award and the criteria for award: http://www.defense.gov/news/DistinguishedWarfareMedalMemo.pdf

From the memo "For extraordinary achievement, not involving acts of valor, directly impacting combat operations or other military operations..."  "warranting recognition above the Bronze Star."

"The award may not be awarded for valor in combat under any circumstances."

The medal and ribbon are shown at the end of this release: http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=119290

Mike

[Devil Doc]

I do not mind this Ribbon Persay, but should it be rated above a Bronze Star? Let alone a NAM w/V? I think it should be rated at the same scale as a Achievment Medal. Maybe if they were Outstanding like flew way more hours than there counterparts, maybe same scale as a Commendation Ribbon. But I do not agree with being ranked above the Bronze Star.

[Brad]

So not for valor in combat, but still above the level of the Bronze Star, when the Bronze Star has a provision specifically FOR valor / heroism in combat?!

I....I think I just felt my brain lose some cells...

[Flying Pig]

Hmmm, so to read it again, it actually appears that the medal could be for a whole list of things, not just UAV ops? 

As far as the spread sheet jockey.....  man..... I know the BSM without the "V" is basically a Meritorious Service Medal, but still......  Its just wrong in a wrong sort of way. 

[Devil Doc]

Yes a Meritorious BSM still means they get the cool license plate, just dont think it is right. I do know this my BSM w/V got demoted to a Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal w /V to a NAM w/V. Got Demoted Twice, so for them to get this, it puts a pressure and twitch in my eye.

[SARDOC]

DevilDoc...don't worry about the order of precedence.  If you had the BSM without the "V" and this UAV medal even the legion of merit above what you display on your profile....I wouldn't give a crap.  It's the Purple Heart , CAR and the NAM"V" that gets you my respect.  Don't worry about the POG awards. 

The Entire Awards process is twisted and needs to be corrected, but in the meantime, I recognize the awards that I know take the "work"   Thanks for your service.

[Flying Pig]

The medals are nice..... but its the fact that he is a squid who had to live with Marines that makes him special. 

[Devil Doc]

Ya what NAVY guy in there right mind,  would go play with the MARINES? This guy!!! 3 Hots and a Cots, Oh wait, 3 MRE's and maybe a hot meal every now and then, a Poncho Liner, Sleeping Bag, and Green sleeping Pad to sleep wherever you can to not get wet or shot at.

[lordmonar]

So not for valor in combat, but still above the level of the Bronze Star, when the Bronze Star has a provision specifically FOR valor / heroism in combat?!

I....I think I just felt my brain lose some cells...

I think the real problem is that people don't really understand what the BSM is awarded for.

It is awarded for Meritorious SERVICE in support of combat.......and post Kosovo you must he in a "combat" zone to get it.

It is NOT in and of itself a VALOR medal.  Hence the V device for those who do show valor while earning their BSM.

Since congress took away the ability of DoD to award BSM's to people who directly support combat but are not themselves in a combat zone......the DoD need a way to reward those who DO a great job fighting and winning the war but are outside of the combat zone.

Hence the "above the BSM".   You can get a BSM for pushing papers, and stetting up tent cities in a combat zone (and the combat zone can be pretty safe some times......Italy was declared a combat zone during the Kosovo War).

You can only get this medal for directly supporting combat operations.....so no services guys will get it.....but UAV crews....and maybe maintenence guys who are "directly" supporting the combat ops.

YMMV.

[bosshawk]

I suspect that some Intel folks will be in line for this new medal: given that they often uncover intel that leads directly to some combat operation that might not, otherwise, be seen.

This said by a guy who devoted over 40 years to intel.

[BGNightfall]

I suspect that some Intel folks will be in line for this new medal: given that they often uncover intel that leads directly to some combat operation that might not, otherwise, be seen.

This said by a guy who devoted over 40 years to intel.

Bosshawk, since in most cases the "Cyber" domain is thought of as an offshoot of the Intel field, I'm reasonably sure you're right about that eligibility.

[LGM30GMCC]

I suspect that some Intel folks will be in line for this new medal: given that they often uncover intel that leads directly to some combat operation that might not, otherwise, be seen.

This said by a guy who devoted over 40 years to intel.

Bosshawk, since in most cases the "Cyber" domain is thought of as an offshoot of the Intel field, I'm reasonably sure you're right about that eligibility.

Maybe in some services. There seems to be no consistency one way or the other. In the USAF it's an off-shoot of comm. Defensive network operations are handled by the communications squadron on base. Offensive...well they are all very quiet but currently fall under AFSPC. Operationally cyber warfare falls under USSTRATCOM, tucked in with space operations and nuclear operations.

[lordmonar]

That's one of the reasons why the Cyber Command never really got off the ground.

a) No one know who is really in charge of it....is it INTEL, COMM or some other specialty.
b) What whelm of operations does Cyber operations fall?  Is it Global Strike Command, ACC, or somewhere in between?
c) Where does the defensive side of it fit in...and at what level? 

Some of the related problems is that with AFCC gone there is no Statigic level to control comm operationally.....all Comm Squadrons are a wing asset who only work on the Statigic level through DISA......with some (very little) control from AFCA.

I was a careeer comm guy.....on the maintenance side....and the cyber domain certainly falls into Comm, Intel and the purely Cyber side of things.

However.....going back to the orginal post that started this side bar.....I do see a lot of the Intel Operations guys falling into the areas that this new medal is supposed to go to.

I also see it going to stateside and os operators and supporters who conduct thier war missions from outside the AOR.
I use the B-1 strkes from Whiteman and F-15 operations from Ramstein specificlly as examples of how we can either do our wartime missions from home bases or forward deployed (but still not in the war zone) and of course all the combat missions we are flying from stateside bases through the RPA systems.

[cap235629]

my issue is the order of precedence.  It should be 1 step above the NDSM and GWOT but no further

[flyboy53]

So at a time when the DoD is facing severe budget cuts because of the antics in Washington, we create more bling.

Quess, I don't understand why the critera for an existing medal -- like the Air Medal or Bronze Star -- wasn't expanded to include cyber ops or drone warfare, but that's too much common sense.

Someone could have been a little more creative like a special device signifying the type of warefare.

Years ago in the Air Force, air traffic controllers used to joke about putting a battery operated light on top of their badge. You could put a little UAV on hte ribbon and launch it.....

[LGM30GMCC]

my issue is the order of precedence.  It should be 1 step above the NDSM and GWOT but no further

So you're saying it should be below the Commendation, Achievement, Combat Readiness and even the Good Conduct Medal? I can't get behind that. While it may seem strange for it to be above the BSM since so many BSMs are given out for meritorious staff support work it makes sense to have it sit where it does.

Especially since for enlisted guys this is something that can affect their promotions. I definitely think recognizing the guys that not only enabled operations to happen (since staffers do), but actually DO the missions is completely appropriate. How we fight war has been changing and we have a lot of people conducting operations and then going home at the end of the day. (This is actually causing a whole new type of combat stress that we are just starting to understand. It's hard for them to go from a combat mindset and visibly blowing up the bad guys, and then have to go home to dinner and grab a loaf of bread on their way. Psychologically that can do really weird things to people.)

[lordmonar]

So at a time when the DoD is facing severe budget cuts because of the antics in Washington, we create more bling.

Quess, I don't understand why the critera for an existing medal -- like the Air Medal or Bronze Star -- wasn't expanded to include cyber ops or drone warfare, but that's too much common sense.

Someone could have been a little more creative like a special device signifying the type of warefare.

Years ago in the Air Force, air traffic controllers used to joke about putting a battery operated light on top of their badge. You could put a little UAV on hte ribbon and launch it.....

The Bronze star was ammended by congress after the Kosovo war to be only awarded to those IN A DESIGNATED COMBAT PAY AREA.......the VFW got all up in arms when a Col and a CMSgt were awarded Bronze Stars for setting up and running a Tent City in Italy.

The Air Medal......is limited only to air crew.........this new medal is for all war fighters who fight from outside the combat areas.

Above the Bronze Star.....because the award critera for the Bronze Star is pretty low.   Your contribution to the war is very low...while this new medal says "direct contribution"...........So you can earn the Bronze Star being an Finance Person who did finance work while stationed in a combat zone.  You don't have to win the war, you don't have to save your buddy's life, you don't have cut checks while dodgeing bullets.    This new medal requires you to show how your actions help win the war (or at least win the battle).

[Pylon]

...you don't have to save your buddy's life, you don't have cut checks while dodgeing bullets.

Yeah, that wouldn't get the BSM-V at all.  That's more like an NAM-V or a Meritorious Mast and a pat on the back.

[LGM30GMCC]

That's the thing though. Most BSMs are probably BSMs and not BSM-Vs. And you can't put a medal above the BSM but below the BSM-V. Just doesn't work.

[lordmonar]

That's the thing though. Most BSMs are probably BSMs and not BSM-Vs. And you can't put a medal above the BSM but below the BSM-V. Just doesn't work.

Yeah....well that's the same story for any medal with a V device......but there you go.

[MAJORZ04]

Back during my days in Vietnam, I was recommended for the BSM, during the TET Offensive.
I was in the US Army.  The decoration was downgraded to to ACM/w V because I was not
wounded and put in for a PH at the same time. For our unit the BSM was held in very high regard.
During that time no office staff were ever awarded a BSM.  Sure many soldiers were awarded the
ACM, and all were EARNED.
True, times have changed and awards and decorations reflect diffferent actions.  But the BSM
is still a COMBAT related award.
An award for UAV operators is justified but should not be above the BSM....

[BGNightfall]

How about either just above or just below the Air Medal?  Just below would put it senior to commendation medals (and the Aerial Achievement Medal), but just above would make just junior to the Meritorious Service Medal while senior to all flying awards but the DFC.

[Devil Doc]

So playing video Games gets you a medal above a BSM? Makes since to me

[lordmonar]

So playing video Games gets you a medal above a BSM? Makes since to me

Dude.......I am an RPA maintenance Tech.    It is not a video game.....they are killing bad guys and saving good guys every farting day!

[Private Investigator]

FYI, the VFW has lodged a grivance re: the UAV medal. I am guessing it will be downgraded between NCM and NAM.

[Devil Doc]

Im not downgrading what they do, just think the medal needs to be downgraded.

[Devil Doc]

They have an Aerial Achievment Medal, that should suffice.

[lordmonar]

They have an Aerial Achievment Medal, that should suffice.

That's good for the UAV guys....but what about the cyber/intel/support guys?

Dispite the title of this thread....the medal is not just for the marines and not just for UAV operators.

It is for all war fighters who directly contribute to the war effort from outside the war zone.

[Flying Pig]

So we have military people who dont contribute to the war effort?  I know... its a rhetorical question.  I know there is a difference.  The guy slinging ham and eggs in Fort Carson, vs the guy pulling the trigger on an Hell Fire launched from a Predator.

I think the issue most have is where it sits on the chart.   Again, the medal is what it is.  If it was for tying shoes..... who cares if its above the Medal of Honor.  People see your shoe tying medal at the top  of your stack, and standing next you is a guy with the MoH at the top of his stack.  People know the deal. They arent going to oooooo and ahhhhhh over the shoe tying medal because its higher on a chart somewhere.  There are several medals that rank above the BSM, above the PH and above the SS that have nothing to do with combat ops.
When you think about the BSM when its given for non-valor, whats the big deal with this medal?   If you look at it in that view, it actually ranks one above the Meritorious Service Medal, because the BSM without the "V" is essentially just that, a Meritorious Service Medal awarded in a combat zone. 

When I first posted the article, I was all torqued... now, after reading different opinions and views, Ive basically adopted the position of "Yeah...... OK.  I just wish they would have placed more in line with a Commendation Medal or Achievement Medal"

[J2H]

The DWM is supposed to be for UAV ops as well as cyber security and other stuff like that

[Flying Pig]

Is there a date from when it starts? Or could you technically be put in for it for actions dating back years ago?  Or even other wars? 

[lordmonar]

according to Wiki it can be retroactively awarded from after Sept 11, 2001.


Also reading the critera for the award and the why it is higher then the BSM......it requries direct "hands on weapons employment" through any medium.

The BSM does not require direct combat action......just distinguinshed service in a combat zone.

[Flying Pig]

As I am reading and learning more about it.... Im having less and less of an issue with it honestly.   

[flyboy53]

So at a time when the DoD is facing severe budget cuts because of the antics in Washington, we create more bling.

Quess, I don't understand why the critera for an existing medal -- like the Air Medal or Bronze Star -- wasn't expanded to include cyber ops or drone warfare, but that's too much common sense.

Someone could have been a little more creative like a special device signifying the type of warefare.

Years ago in the Air Force, air traffic controllers used to joke about putting a battery operated light on top of their badge. You could put a little UAV on hte ribbon and launch it.....
[/quote
The Bronze star was ammended by congress after the Kosovo war to be only awarded to those IN A DESIGNATED COMBAT PAY AREA.......the VFW got all up in arms when a Col and a CMSgt were awarded Bronze Stars for setting up and running a Tent City in Italy.

The Air Medal......is limited only to air crew.........this new medal is for all war fighters who fight from outside the combat areas.

Above the Bronze Star.....because the award critera for the Bronze Star is pretty low.   Your contribution to the war is very low...while this new medal says "direct contribution"...........So you can earn the Bronze Star being an Finance Person who did finance work while stationed in a combat zone.  You don't have to win the war, you don't have to save your buddy's life, you don't have cut checks while dodgeing bullets.    This new medal requires you to show how your actions help win the war (or at least win the battle).

I was being funny. Understand that I joined the Air Force when the Commendation Medal was about the only attaboy medal that an enlisted member could earn. I actually knew the major who received the first MSM.

Back then the Combat Readiness Medal was created to recognize everyone that stood at a constant state of readliness during the Cold War. It once was considered a formal decoration and those who earned it were really proud of it -- even though there were plenty of jokes about it.

It was the same when the Air Force created the BMTS Honor Grad ribbon -- then the number of people I met wearing it during my career could be counted on two hands.

I understand the scope of military operations has changed dramatically since I wore the blue suit. Perhaps this is a good thing -- with the ever increasing ops tempo that the drone crews work.

[JeffDG]

TOP DRONE - The US Air Force's Elite Drone Training School

[lordmonar]

HaHa.....funny.  The "Top Drone" school has existed for about four years now. 
It is one of the customers that I work for.

[Flying Pig]

"I feel the need.... for speed" just doesn't give off the same feeling of power that it once did.....


Maverick I feel the need... the need for speed

[bosshawk]

I guess that you do, you fly a Hughes 500 helicopter.

[Devil Doc]

I figured it a touchy subject to come out with this Medal when there is so much controversy about DRONE Attacks.

[lordmonar]

I figured it a touchy subject to come out with this Medal when there is so much controversy about DRONE Attacks.

Why?   There is not really any controversy from the military point of view. 

[LGM30GMCC]

The reality is when new types of warfare come these types of controversies tend to happen. It happened with cross bows (banned by the church for awhile), guns, machine guns, airplanes, poison gas, nuclear weapons and now UAVs.

Of those really only the conventions against the use of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons have stood the test of time. Sometimes chemical weapons are used but there is still pretty universal condemnation of their use. Nuclear weapons scare the living daylights out of people in many ways.

Targeted strikes with UAVs are unlikely to ever go away. They just aren't an exponential increase in terror. The questions are more about the constitutional legality of the strikes. The controversy would be the same if it was manned aircraft doing the strikes. (And it was for awhile)

[PaulR]

Why could they not just use the stateside awards and authorize a certain type of clasp or or device to attach when the award is for UAV related accomplishments?  I am against inventing new types of awards  when prexisting types can be utilized.  There are two types of personal decorations- those for merit and valor on the battle field and those that are for contributions while not in harms way.  A UAV operator is definitely in the latter catagory

I know some of the UAV operators who work out of the Houston area... while they do deserve recognition for the impact they make, they are not deserving of the same medals and awards as those who have to dodge bullets.  Also, I feel that the creation this medal is ridiculous, as well as not cost effective in our current economy. 

If they are going to create a medal, I had rather see the Cold War Service Medal created and awarded to our aging and neglected Cold War veterans.   

[PHall]

I figured it a touchy subject to come out with this Medal when there is so much controversy about DRONE Attacks.

There's lots of controversy about NAPALM attacks too. But you still get an Air Medal for delivering one if you save our guys lives.

[BGNightfall]

If they are going to create a medal, I had rather see the Cold War Service Medal created and awarded to our aging and neglected Cold War veterans.

Paul, while I'm not entirely sure, I do believe there have been several commemorative medals struck for cold war vets.  For a campaign or service medal, well... this year we'll see the guys who joined in 1993 hit their 20 year mark, so the opportunity to actually recognize our cold warriors is rapidly falling away.  While I'm not entirely familiar with the other services rules on retirement and high year tenure, I do know that at best we can expect roughly ten more years of service for enlisted who nominally served during the cold war, and another ten after that for the flag/general officers who happened to commission in the final days.  This is a fairly small number of people that we would be striking a campaign/service medal for.  Not to say that they aren't worthy, just that the perception at this stage would be that it would be another ribbon on the stack for folks that are already highly decorated.

[CAPAPRN]

No matter what you think of a cold war medal (and there have only been after market unofficials made- only official recognition is a certificate you can order) the issuance of a new award for UAV pilots is a very obviously political move. Gotta agree with PaulR on this one. I believe in 2007 the instructions for award of the DFC were changed to allow award for someone not physically located in the plane- I believe this was specifically done for drone operators. The Legion of Merit is also allowed as an end of tour award - combat or non combat. Considering the lack of recognition of enlisted warriors in our recent wars, this is really crazy. - BTW- name of thread is incorrect- this is not a service specific award.

[lordmonar]

What do you mean by "political"?

As for The DFC, Air Medal and Aerial Acheivement medals....those are all well and good for RPA operators....but does not address other forms of cyber operations....nor does it address the other "non aircrew" members of the RPA chain of attack.

The part that gets me all riled up....is that everyone is second quessing the experts at the Pentagon that made this medal and chose its location in the order of medals.  It was not like a couple of RPA pilots came up with the idea and just decided to put it above the Bronze Star.  There is a whole office in the Pentagon that debates these things, they talk to all the players involved, check the precidents in the histories and make their recommendations to the SecDef.

Bottom line....none of the existing medals really fits the bill.

When they tried to award an Air Medal to a RPA pilot for superior airmanship in saving a crippled RPA.....all the other pilots got all up in arms.

An RPA crew is made up Pilot (who may or may not be a rated pilot), a sensor operator and Mission Corridinator (an Intell guy).  When a operation is going on (door kicker overwatch, targeted strike or CAS support) there are several other people not in the trailer who are all part of the attack chain.   Many of them are not air crew.....and so do not qualifiy for an Air Medal or DFC.

So look at the available medals.

AFAC....okay that could apply.
MSM.....nope....not for combat.
BS.......Nope....must be in "hazard pay" area.
Air Medal....Okay could apply to some RPA guys....but not to others and not to cyper warriors
DFC.....Okay could apply to some RPA guys....but not to others and not to cyper warriors.
Legion of Merit (LOM).....is awarded to high ranking officers and SNCO's (cheifs)

So there is nothing that really applies.

Hence a new medal.

Now......the decision to put it above the Bronze Star is because it is going to be HARDER to get then the Bronze Star.
The Bronze Star is a service Medal....that is you have to do exceptional service supporting combat operations in a hazard fire pay zone.   You can get it for doing a great job as a finance specialist in the hospitol in the AOR.   The Distingushed Warfare Medal rquires direct hands on employment of weapoin systems........that means you have had to actually attacked the enemy whether it was through an RPA or you attacked their computer systems or communications systems using cyber or EW equipment.

it is ONLY awarded for single exempulary acts and not for sustained operational service.

So......by my thinking it is higher then the Bronze Star.

Yes.....it kind of sucks for the guy who got his Bronze Star with V for jumping on a gernade, or kicking some major butt in a figher fight.    But that has existed since the day they first started giving out Bronze stars to the REMF guys as well as the line guys.

And yes....we will get people saying "well I never saw a REMF get a Bronze Star".....but we all know that they are out there.

[flyboy53]

What do you mean by "political"?

As for The DFC, Air Medal and Aerial Acheivement medals....those are all well and good for RPA operators....but does not address other forms of cyber operations....nor does it address the other "non aircrew" members of the RPA chain of attack.

The part that gets me all riled up....is that everyone is second quessing the experts at the Pentagon that made this medal and chose its location in the order of medals.  It was not like a couple of RPA pilots came up with the idea and just decided to put it above the Bronze Star.  There is a whole office in the Pentagon that debates these things, they talk to all the players involved, check the precidents in the histories and make their recommendations to the SecDef.

Bottom line....none of the existing medals really fits the bill.

When they tried to award an Air Medal to a RPA pilot for superior airmanship in saving a crippled RPA.....all the other pilots got all up in arms.

An RPA crew is made up Pilot (who may or may not be a rated pilot), a sensor operator and Mission Corridinator (an Intell guy).  When a operation is going on (door kicker overwatch, targeted strike or CAS support) there are several other people not in the trailer who are all part of the attack chain.   Many of them are not air crew.....and so do not qualifiy for an Air Medal or DFC.

So look at the available medals.

AFAC....okay that could apply.
MSM.....nope....not for combat.
BS.......Nope....must be in "hazard pay" area.
Air Medal....Okay could apply to some RPA guys....but not to others and not to cyper warriors
DFC.....Okay could apply to some RPA guys....but not to others and not to cyper warriors.
Legion of Merit (LOM).....is awarded to high ranking officers and SNCO's (cheifs)

So there is nothing that really applies.

Hence a new medal.

Now......the decision to put it above the Bronze Star is because it is going to be HARDER to get then the Bronze Star.
The Bronze Star is a service Medal....that is you have to do exceptional service supporting combat operations in a hazard fire pay zone.   You can get it for doing a great job as a finance specialist in the hospitol in the AOR.   The Distingushed Warfare Medal rquires direct hands on employment of weapoin systems........that means you have had to actually attacked the enemy whether it was through an RPA or you attacked their computer systems or communications systems using cyber or EW equipment.

it is ONLY awarded for single exempulary acts and not for sustained operational service.

So......by my thinking it is higher then the Bronze Star.

Yes.....it kind of sucks for the guy who got his Bronze Star with V for jumping on a gernade, or kicking some major butt in a figher fight.    But that has existed since the day they first started giving out Bronze stars to the REMF guys as well as the line guys.

And yes....we will get people saying "well I never saw a REMF get a Bronze Star".....but we all know that they are out there.

OK, I respect your point. But you're not going to tell me it isn't political.

In any other circumstance, the criteria of an existing medal would have been adapted to this new type of warfare.

So, in the Korean War, there were lingists and other crypto people in Japan hammering out their duties, monitoring the war or passing on key communications. They qualified for the same campaign medals that were earned by the men and women fighting in the combat theater. In Vietnam, everyone got a NDSM and we came up with in-country or era veteran status. What does this new medal mean -- someone can get PTSD for operating a drone a distance away from the drone strike?

Now that's its created, you can't debate the justification for this award. It seems the American Legion (and probably other veterans groups) are now advocating for the medal to rank below those combat decorations. The personal joke would be that that recipient would then qualify for the appropriate campaign medal without ever being there and that's wrong.

I would advocate placing it behind or before the Combat Readiness Medal (which ranks above a good conduct medal). Perhaps the next thing to do, would be to eliminate the none-direct combat justification of the Bronze Star.

One more thing about Cold Warriors -- and I am one -- the certificate is nice, but it doesn't do that period of service any justice. It has taken about 30 years for a lot of the operations and losses to come to light -- a lot of the international tensions and moments when we were a breath away from nuclear war -- and the average member of the public has no idea what was going on because the Cold War also included things like Korea, Vietnam, and a bunch of other brush fires, for which there is very little recognition.

I remember coming back from 24 months overseas in Alaska and being told I wasn't even a veteran. All I got for Cold War service overseas was a ribbon. The certificate, though popular, is pretty poor recognition.

Years ago, a retired Army staff member created a Cold War Medal for private sale through a Virginia company called Foxfall Medals. It is this medal that the various veterans groups have been trying to get the DoD to recognize. More than once that medal has been included in the DoD budget, but gets cut essentially because the DoD would rather fund programs for drone operators. That needs to change.

[MIKE]

Alaska isn't overseas.

[PHall]

Alaska isn't overseas.

It is according to DoD. It's OCONUS (Outside the Continential United States), Hawaii is OCONUS too.

[MIKE]

Alaska isn't overseas.

It is according to DoD. It's OCONUS (Outside the Contiguous United States), Hawaii is OCONUS too.

FTFY.  I looked it up.  It's the contiguous wording that makes Alaska qualify as OCONUS.

[SarDragon]

Alaska isn't overseas.

Depends of who's defining overseas. Some places in Alaska are sure as hell isolated enough to count as sea duty in the Navy. Adak comes to mind immediately. Many Japan tours counted as sea duty. I know, I did two of them there.

Here are our rules:

Five types of duty designations or "types" are used to identify commands for establishment of sea/shore rotation.
(1) Shore Duty (Sea/Shore Type Duty Code "1"):  Duty performed in United States (U.S.) (including Hawaii and Anchorage, Alaska) land-based activities where members are not required to be absent from the corporate limits of their duty station in excess of 150 days per year, or long-term schooling of 18 or more months.
(2) Sea Duty (Sea/Shore Type Duty Code "2"):  Duty performed in commissioned vessels and deployable squadrons homeported in the U.S. (including Hawaii and Alaska); U.S. land-based activities and embarked staffs, which require members to operate away from their duty station in excess of 150 days per year.
(3) Overseas Remote Land-based Sea Duty (Sea/Shore Type Duty Code "3"):  Duty performed in a land-based activity, which does not require members to be absent more than 150 days per year, but is credited as sea duty for rotational purposes only due to the relative undesirability of the geographic area.
(4) Overseas Sea Duty (Sea/Shore Type Duty Code "4"):  Duty performed in commissioned vessels and deployable squadrons homeported overseas; overseas land-based activities and embarked staffs, which require members to operate away from their duty station in excess of 150 days per year.
(5) Overseas Shore Duty (Sea/Shore Type Duty Code "6"):  Duty performed in overseas land-based activities, which are credited as shore duty for rotational purposes.  Members are not required to be absent from corporate limits of their duty station in excess of 150 days per year.

[Flying Pig]

Ive never heard of AK or HI referred to as overseas.  Ive been to both in the military a couple of time.  Never rated anything for it, never came up in any documentation, DD-214, you certainly are not entitled to any overseas decorations for being in AK or HI.  Per the definition, yes its considered OCONUS based in geography but thats about it.  But who knows.....  I didnt even know I rated the Korean Defense Service Medal until a few years after I got out! 

[ol'fido]

I got the Army Overseas Service Ribbon for being stationed in Hawaii. And yes, it's on my DD214. AK and HI are considered an overseas assignment by the Army unless things have changed in the last 21 years which they may well have. Don't know about the other services.

[lordmonar]

OK, I respect your point. But you're not going to tell me it isn't political.

I still don't know what you mean by political.  Are you suggesting that the DoD is making this medal to win political support form some party or group?  Are you saying this is political in-fighitning between "line combat" "Manned Fliers" and RPA operators and Cyper Warriors.

In any other circumstance, the criteria of an existing medal would have been adapted to this new type of warfare.

So, in the Korean War, there were lingists and other crypto people in Japan hammering out their duties, monitoring the war or passing on key communications. They qualified for the same campaign medals that were earned by the men and women fighting in the combat theater. In Vietnam, everyone got a NDSM and we came up with in-country or era veteran status.

?? Let's not confuse campaing medals with Personal Decorations.....because you will loose.....Gen Clarke the commander of all Nato forces in the Kosovo war had to get an exception to policy for him and his staff....becasue they did not actually fight their war in the AOR for the campaign medal.  Those crews who deployed to and sortied out of Ramstein did not qualify for the campaign medal.  The crews from Whiteman did not qualify for the campign medal.........hench why the USAF created Air and Space Campaign Medal.....so they could recognise their people who fought the war from outside the AOR.

What does this new medal mean -- someone can get PTSD for operating a drone a distance away from the drone strike?

Actually.....yes you can in a way.  but that is an argument for another thread.

Now that's its created, you can't debate the justification for this award. It seems the American Legion (and probably other veterans groups) are now advocating for the medal to rank below those combat decorations. The personal joke would be that that recipient would then qualify for the appropriate campaign medal without ever being there and that's wrong.

Is the campaign medal for being there......or is it for supporting the war?   RPA operators are fighting the war every day, day in and day out.  Watching the backs of the door kickers.   What is wrong with recognising them for fighting the war that they are fighting?  And for the record.....they don't qualify for the campaign medal....but they should.

I would advocate placing it behind or before the Combat Readiness Medal (which ranks above a good conduct medal). Perhaps the next thing to do, would be to eliminate the none-direct combat justification of the Bronze Star.

So what you are really mad about......is that your "ideal" of what the Bronze Star is does not match the reality.   So....what really needs to be is a "Gold Star" medal or something that is for direct combat that would be above the new medal but less then the Silver Star.

One more thing about Cold Warriors -- and I am one -- the certificate is nice, but it doesn't do that period of service any justice. It has taken about 30 years for a lot of the operations and losses to come to light -- a lot of the international tensions and moments when we were a breath away from nuclear war -- and the average member of the public has no idea what was going on because the Cold War also included things like Korea, Vietnam, and a bunch of other brush fires, for which there is very little recognition.

I remember coming back from 24 months overseas in Alaska and being told I wasn't even a veteran. All I got for Cold War service overseas was a ribbon. The certificate, though popular, is pretty poor recognition.

Years ago, a retired Army staff member created a Cold War Medal for private sale through a Virginia company called Foxfall Medals. It is this medal that the various veterans groups have been trying to get the DoD to recognize. More than once that medal has been included in the DoD budget, but gets cut essentially because the DoD would rather fund programs for drone operators. That needs to change.

So....you are mad that "drone operators" are getting their medal but you are not getting yours. 

[flyboy53]

OK, I respect your point. But you're not going to tell me it isn't political.

I still don't know what you mean by political.  Are you suggesting that the DoD is making this medal to win political support form some party or group?  Are you saying this is political in-fighitning between "line combat" "Manned Fliers" and RPA operators and Cyper Warriors.

In any other circumstance, the criteria of an existing medal would have been adapted to this new type of warfare.

So, in the Korean War, there were lingists and other crypto people in Japan hammering out their duties, monitoring the war or passing on key communications. They qualified for the same campaign medals that were earned by the men and women fighting in the combat theater. In Vietnam, everyone got a NDSM and we came up with in-country or era veteran status.

?? Let's not confuse campaing medals with Personal Decorations.....because you will loose.....Gen Clarke the commander of all Nato forces in the Kosovo war had to get an exception to policy for him and his staff....becasue they did not actually fight their war in the AOR for the campaign medal.  Those crews who deployed to and sortied out of Ramstein did not qualify for the campaign medal.  The crews from Whiteman did not qualify for the campign medal.........hench why the USAF created Air and Space Campaign Medal.....so they could recognise their people who fought the war from outside the AOR.

What does this new medal mean -- someone can get PTSD for operating a drone a distance away from the drone strike?

Actually.....yes you can in a way.  but that is an argument for another thread.

Now that's its created, you can't debate the justification for this award. It seems the American Legion (and probably other veterans groups) are now advocating for the medal to rank below those combat decorations. The personal joke would be that that recipient would then qualify for the appropriate campaign medal without ever being there and that's wrong.

Is the campaign medal for being there......or is it for supporting the war?   RPA operators are fighting the war every day, day in and day out.  Watching the backs of the door kickers.   What is wrong with recognising them for fighting the war that they are fighting?  And for the record.....they don't qualify for the campaign medal....but they should.

I would advocate placing it behind or before the Combat Readiness Medal (which ranks above a good conduct medal). Perhaps the next thing to do, would be to eliminate the none-direct combat justification of the Bronze Star.

So what you are really mad about......is that your "ideal" of what the Bronze Star is does not match the reality.   So....what really needs to be is a "Gold Star" medal or something that is for direct combat that would be above the new medal but less then the Silver Star.

One more thing about Cold Warriors -- and I am one -- the certificate is nice, but it doesn't do that period of service any justice. It has taken about 30 years for a lot of the operations and losses to come to light -- a lot of the international tensions and moments when we were a breath away from nuclear war -- and the average member of the public has no idea what was going on because the Cold War also included things like Korea, Vietnam, and a bunch of other brush fires, for which there is very little recognition.

I remember coming back from 24 months overseas in Alaska and being told I wasn't even a veteran. All I got for Cold War service overseas was a ribbon. The certificate, though popular, is pretty poor recognition.

Years ago, a retired Army staff member created a Cold War Medal for private sale through a Virginia company called Foxfall Medals. It is this medal that the various veterans groups have been trying to get the DoD to recognize. More than once that medal has been included in the DoD budget, but gets cut essentially because the DoD would rather fund programs for drone operators. That needs to change.

So....you are mad that "drone operators" are getting their medal but you are not getting yours.

How about none of the above.

I said it was political because it relates to essentially one or two specific and very unique military groups that are products of a new type of warfare. (Which, by the way, I find absolutely amazing).

Second, I didn't confuse personal decorations with campaign medals. I was explaining how there was an obvious change in policy that once allowed this otherwise exception to policy -- and by the way, I know the individual who received these Korean campaign medals. He received the Occupation Medal for Japan at the same time.

Also, I said earlier that I could accept this new medal given the changing and very complex operations tempo that the American military now operates in. I don't agree that a medal such as this should be ranked higher than those decorations that reflect direct, boots on the ground, participation in combat.

Third, to fall victim to PTSD. You have to have experienced the trama first hand. You will never tell me that a drone operator or systems technician will get PTSD from watching a mission unfold on a monitor. Get real. If that's the case, than we've exposed a whole group of people to PTSD for playing all those combat video games.

Fourth. I am not angry that someone gets a decoration and I received nothing -- which is an unwarranted personal attack. I said the DoD can come up with a new medal/decoration when an entire era of American military (about 40 to 50 years worth of military men and women) only get a certificate, which is wrong. The number, which I won't try to estimate, is probably the reason why a certificate was adopted -- because of the cost. You are aware, I hope, that those who foght WWW II never saw the campaign medals that they earned because they were given ribbons. Most of the actual campaign medals were not minted until 1947. You are also aware, I hope, that the crews who were shot down or the individuals wounded for border skirmishes in places like post-war Korea or Germany never earned Purple Hearts for their wounds.

Remember, I said that I received the Air Force Overseas Service Ribbon for my tour. I'm proud of that ribbon. And given the fact that my DOR was Sept. 1, 1980, I was probably among some of the first to qualify for that ribbon. I also received a AFCM for that tour (so that you realize I am not confusing campaign medals and decorations) AND I happen to have another one for non-combat valor at a plane crash!!

Finally, my DD Form 214 credits me with 1 year, 11 months and 21 days of overseas service for the tour in Alaska, and I can probably find an LES that shows the overseas pay.

[lordmonar]

How about none of the above.

I said it was political because it relates to essentially one or two specific and very unique military groups that are products of a new type of warfare. (Which, by the way, I find absolutely amazing).

And the Air Medal, Aeiral Acheivment and Distinguished Fly Cross are not for a very unique military group that are product of a new type of warfare (back in the 1940's)? I do agree that it is political in the Air Force at lease where the man aircraft guys don't like the fact that RPA guys are doing more for the war then they are.   Yes the face of warefare is changing and this medal (along with the Air and Space Campaign Medal and the GWOT Service Medal) is an indication that the DoD is looking for ways to recognise their very valuable contribution to the war effort.

Second, I didn't confuse personal decorations with campaign medals. I was explaining how there was an obvious change in policy that once allowed this otherwise exception to policy -- and by the way, I know the individual who received these Korean campaign medals. He received the Occupation Medal for Japan at the same time.

Yes.....I understand your point.....but maybe it is easer to just make a new medal than it is to write a 100 different execptions to policy to recognise thier contributions.

Also, I said earlier that I could accept this new medal given the changing and very complex operations tempo that the American military now operates in. I don't agree that a medal such as this should be ranked higher than those decorations that reflect direct, boots on the ground, participation in combat.

It is ranked higher because it harder to earn.   The Bronze Star can be awarded for a single instance of execptional performance in combat....with a V is that performance also had valor or heroism.   It can also be awarded for exceptional service.  The new medal can ONLY be awarded for specific instances of exceptional employment of a weapons systems in support of war operations......i.e. saving the butts of boots on the ground guys in a fire fight, or taking out a difficult target.   Like I said we have the "ideal" of what the Bronze Star is about.....but in reality it is also awarded for a lot of other things beside kicking butt on the line in combat.

Third, to fall victim to PTSD. You have to have experienced the trama first hand. You will never tell me that a drone operator or systems technician will get PTSD from watching a mission unfold on a monitor. Get real. If that's the case, than we've exposed a whole group of people to PTSD for playing all those combat video games.

This is why the RPA guys are so upset with their other war fighter brothers.   They alway get greif that they are "just playing a video game" and the get to spend every night with their wife and familiy....how can that be stressful?   How about knowing that they are in fact killing people?  That at the end of the day they have to go out into the world and can't talk to their wives and freinds about the stress of their jobs.   How about the fact that they do it day in and day out for years.....with no break.....unlike most ground combat troops who spend maybe six months or a year on the line.  And when they do complain about the stress they feel......the get greif from everyone who automatically dismisses their stress from playing "video games"?   Just because they are not in danger from enemy action or mechincal failure does not mean that they are not suseptiable to the PTSD.

Fourth. I am not angry that someone gets a decoration and I received nothing -- which is an unwarranted personal attack. I said the DoD can come up with a new medal/decoration when an entire era of American military (about 40 to 50 years worth of military people only get a certificate, which is wrong. The number, which I won't try to estimate, is probably the reason why a certificate was adopted -- because of the cost. You are aware, I hope, that those who foght WWW II never saw the campaign medals that they earned because they were given ribbons. Most of the actual campaign medals were not minted until 1947.

I agree.....I don't know why the DoD did not want to make a Cold War Service Medal.....and yes the certificate was adopted as a compromise between doing nothing and issuing new medals.   And I am aware that most service members were never "given" their medals....including me.  I go all my personal decorations....but all my campaign medals I had to order from Vanguard or buy at the Uniform Sales.   But that is neither here nor their.  I accused you of being angry because you brought it up......as what the DoD did nor did not do in the past has no bearing on their decision to make an award to honor the contributions of what is going on now.

Remember, I said that I received the Air Force Overseas Service Ribbon for my tour. I'm proud of that ribbon. And given the fact that my DOR was Sept. 1, 1980, I was probably among some of the first to qualify for that ribbon. I also received a AFCM for that tour (so that you realize I am not confusing campaign medals and decorations) AND I happen to have another one for non-combat valor at a plane crash!!

Finally, my DD Form 214 credits me with 1 year, 11 months and 21 days of overseas service for the tour in Alaska, and I can probably find an LES that shows the overseas pay.

??

[flyboy53]

I suspect that we are both (and always will be) former Air Force senior NCOs and, as such, are brothers in arms who have considerable knowledge about things like awards and decorations. As such, we can have a healthy and respectful agree to disagree because we are both and will always be "airmen" and part of that very unique and special 'fraternity.'

Also, we both recognize that the battlefield or theater of war is changing and we need to keep pace with those changes.

I, like you, probably have certain medals and awards that mean more than others because if what it took to earn it. That's why I mentioned the AFCM for non-combat valor (which was awarded before a V device was authorized). So, I have a ribbon for overseas service. I am not snubbed by it. It represents my service in a very real, Cold War. There are certain other ribbons, awards or medals that mean a lot to certain people -- some very unique, like the Antartic Service Medal. Also, I was deployed three times during my career and there were no medals or ribbons to recognize that service.

Finally, my comment about the overseas service on my DD Form 214 was directed at an earlier post who didn't think Alaska was considered overseas.

I will say this though about the inequity of Cold War recognition. In the two years, that I served in Alaska, I was aware of very real hostile threats that were made on our Nation's security, largely by "enemy" probes or confrontations, that tested our readiness. More often than not, I was also aware of weapons controllers, already stressed out by remote tours in a hostile weather environment, who suffered nervous breakdowns or other mental issues from the stress. It is unfortunate that that service goes unrecognized.

[lordmonar]

I agree that you and I are on the same wavelenghts on a many things.....I just try to keep my arguments seperate.....the merits of a cold war medal are a seperate issue from this medal.

As are my views of the equity of medals as the exist today comparing them to pervious eras of the military (your Date of Retirement preceeds my Date of Enlistment by six years) and things change.

I am a civilian contractor for the RPA community following some time as a blue suit RPA maintainer.   I know what we do day in and day out....and its direct impact to the warfighter on the ground.  I am also a communications guy before getting into the RPA world and know how the cyber and space warfare whelm is changing and how it is going to affect future wars.

I know how these new guys on the block in warfare are fighting for legitmacy in today war fighter community.   In a lot of way it has parallels with Billy Mitchell's era when the aviation guys were trying to get recognition from the "traditional" war fighters of that time.

And that is all that I really want from anyone who enters this debate.

That they first truely understand the true requirments of the awards they hold in such high regard.
That they respect the contributions that cyber, Electronic Warfare and RPA are to the overall war effort.
That they at least respect that what these wariors are doing are infact important and that they have stress and sense of being a part of the fight. 

Time and time again have seen people disrespect the RPA, Space and Cyber communities as not being important or their jobs are "so easy" that they do not rate the same respect as others.......and I understand where that comes from.....as a comm guy I think that Infantry Grunts must have an easy life of it (at least in garrison) because I don't know their dialy routine and their gripes and complains seem trivial to me.....as they see my gripes and complains.  I try to see things from the other guys point of view.   And I also look at what Career Field X is doing and consider how that affects me.

If the RPA guys all want to get a medal for shooting hell fire missions.......how does that affect me?  It doesn't.   If I got a Bronze Star for saving the world with a swiss army knife while under intence artillary fire.........someone else getting a different medal for what I would consider easier circumstances.......takes nothing away from my Bronze Star.

They stil earned their Bronze Star for what they did and just like your AFCM....it is important to them.   This new medal does nothing to diminish that.

[SarDragon]

Second, I didn't confuse personal decorations with campaign medals. I was explaining how there was an obvious change in policy that once allowed this otherwise exception to policy -- and by the way, I know the individual who received these Korean campaign medals. He received the Occupation Medal for Japan at the same time.

Nice trick. The occupation ended in 1952, as did medal eligibility. I spent nine years stationed in Japan (off and on from 1973 to 1989), and never heard hint one about the Occupation Medal.

[ol'fido]

However, if you were stationed in West Berlin, you could have earned it up to the reunification.

[Sapper168]

And now for something completely different.....    the AFT Marine's take on the Distinguished Warfare Medal.... enjoy.     

Distinguished Warfare Medal - Action Figure Therapy

Language warning - MIKE

[SarDragon]

Breaking news. 

[lordmonar]

So.....are they going to down grade the Defense Superior Service, Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Distinguished Service Medal, The DOT Oustanding Achievment Medal, The Distinguished Flying Cross, etc, etc.....by my count there are atleast 10 medal above the Bronze Star that do not require  "REQUIRE" being in harms way.

I hate when this sort of shistuff becomes a political item.

Stop worrying about the stupid medals and fix the farting budge already! 

[Garibaldi]

So.....are they going to down grade the Defense Superior Service, Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Distinguished Service Medal, The DOT Oustanding Achievment Medal, The Distinguished Flying Cross, etc, etc.....by my count there are atleast 10 medal above the Bronze Star that do not require  "REQUIRE" being in harms way.

I hate when this sort of shistuff becomes a political item.

Stop worrying about the stupid medals and fix the farting budge already! 

I read somewhere that some officers in the field in Viet Nam, after serving their 6 months and rotating to the rear, would get a Bronze Star for doing their REMF job well. And as I understood it, this is rumor and hearsay now, that DFCs were awarded kind of loosely then too. Logging combat time without actually setting butt in a helo seat, etc.

[flyboy53]

So.....are they going to down grade the Defense Superior Service, Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Distinguished Service Medal, The DOT Oustanding Achievment Medal, The Distinguished Flying Cross, etc, etc.....by my count there are atleast 10 medal above the Bronze Star that do not require  "REQUIRE" being in harms way.

I hate when this sort of shistuff becomes a political item.

Stop worrying about the stupid medals and fix the farting budge already! 

I read somewhere that some officers in the field in Viet Nam, after serving their 6 months and rotating to the rear, would get a Bronze Star for doing their REMF job well. And as I understood it, this is rumor and hearsay now, that DFCs were awarded kind of loosely then too. Logging combat time without actually setting butt in a helo seat, etc.

That's old news.

I'm sure that every one of us can tell similar stories -- and whether it was deserved or not. There are plenty of similar stories in the CAP. I remember back in the early 1980s when a bunch of airmen were recognized with Meritorious Service Medals who were serving in what was then the USAF Security Service. There was a big uproar, too. The truth of the matter was that given the important classified things they were doing, nobody would ever understand the significance of that decoration other than the nominators, the recipients and their commanders.

The only way to counter such a story, is to make sure that people are appropriately recognized and the medal inflation kept in check. However, it still doesn't really apply to this new medal and what it will mean to the recipients.

I'll tell you what this discussion has done for me; I found a Speciality Press book over the weekend about the UAV mission and have been pretty amazed.

Face it, we are well into a new era of warfare; and we've beat this topic to death.

[PHall]

It's a fact of life that REMF's will find a way to get awarded medals for doing nothing while the guys actually doing something will get squat.
It's been that way for hundreds of years and I don't see it changing anytime soon.
Just deal with it and get on with your life. That's about all you can do.

[lordmonar]

So.....are they going to down grade the Defense Superior Service, Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Distinguished Service Medal, The DOT Oustanding Achievment Medal, The Distinguished Flying Cross, etc, etc.....by my count there are atleast 10 medal above the Bronze Star that do not require  "REQUIRE" being in harms way.

I hate when this sort of shistuff becomes a political item.

Stop worrying about the stupid medals and fix the farting budge already! 

I read somewhere that some officers in the field in Viet Nam, after serving their 6 months and rotating to the rear, would get a Bronze Star for doing their REMF job well. And as I understood it, this is rumor and hearsay now, that DFCs were awarded kind of loosely then too. Logging combat time without actually setting butt in a helo seat, etc.

Not rumor....I've read my Dad's DFC write up......while yes he was in Nah Trang a the the time......the write up is all about office work....nothing about actually flying combat missions.   The Same story about the Bronze Star  back in Viet Nam and through to today's conflicts......you don't have to do anything heroic or in actual "combat" (that is actually on the ground shooting and getting shot at) to be eligible for the medal.

[Private Investigator]

It's a fact of life that REMF's will find a way to get awarded medals for doing nothing while the guys actually doing something will get squat.
It's been that way for hundreds of years and I don't see it changing anytime soon.
Just deal with it and get on with your life. That's about all you can do.

It is what it is. Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. Just play life forward.   

[Flying Pig]

Its interesting to see how the media (even myself at one point)  latched on to the idea that its a medal FOR UAV crews.  When in fact, it its not specific to any MOS.  It was not made for any specific MOS, nor is anyone restricted from getting it. 
However, regardless of where this new medal ranks on the order of precedence chart, Id rather see this guy get the new medal vs a Bronze Star for power points. 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/local-chaplain-played-vital-role-in-war/nWhTm/

[Devil Doc]

What i have noticed about many awards, it is who you know, not what you know. People getting a ribbon for doing there job? Thats is asinine. Ive seen it first hand. Some high ranking official been in the military for 25+ years, get sent to iraq for 90 days, gets some BS Medal, then considers themself a "War" Veteran. Why dont the ground pounders get the credit, and the REMF or POUGUES are always basking in the glory? "Bullets dont Fly without Supply" Yes i understand we are all a Team, but, a Drone Medal for flying a Aircraft, that you have no "risk of your life" higher than a Bronze Star? I dont think so. Personally, I think the Meritorious Bronze Star should be deactivated, and make it Combat only with V. Commendation medals can replace the non combat BS. I just dont like the fact, that many of my brethren, who have fought the good fight, didnt get anything. Its not that we dont think they deserve these medals, its how high they put it. Isnt giving someone a medal that has died for there country, and then this medal outranks it?

[Flying Pig]

When did the "V" device come around?  Has that always been an attachment to the Bronze Star or is that recent?  My grandfather  was in WWII and got the BSM for assaulting a machingun nest in Normandy and his BSM doesnt have a "V".  He also go the PH for losing a couple fingers during the act.  He later won another BSM and PH for actions during the Battle of the Bulge.  Neither BSM came with a "V" but there is a PH associated with each BSM, so it was clearly combat related.  He was with the 82nd Airborne. 

[lordmonar]

When did the "V" device come around?  Has that always been an attachment to the Bronze Star or is that recent?  My grandfather  was in WWII and got the BSM for assaulting a machingun nest in Normandy and his BSM doesnt have a "V".  He also go the PH for losing a couple fingers during the act.  He later won another BSM and PH for actions during the Battle of the Bulge.  Neither BSM came with a "V" but there is a PH associated with each BSM, so it was clearly combat related.  He was with the 82nd Airborne.

The V cam after WWII if I remember correctly.   Also remember that after WWII everyone who had a Combat Infarnty Badge got it converted to a Bronze Star.....so this is the same old story.........When someone gets it for "power points" in the war zone.....or "just doing their job"......or "they worked for the general"...........we have someone trot out the stories about how someone "stormed the castle with a soup spoon and some binder's twin".

The base proble is like what Devil Doc said.........the actual critiria to win the Bronze Star (and Purple Heart for that matter) is not what people really think it is.  They hear the story about how Joe saved the world and shot doing it.....and they think that is the base line standard.  Then when high ranking officer goves to the AOR for 90 days and kicks some major high ranking butt doing his high ranking job running his part of the war.....they get upset that the get the same medal as the grunt who saves his buddies lives by taking out a particurlly difficult target.

Remember that the original Bronze Star was supposed to be awared at the Company Commander Level.......it was intended to reward those doing a good job to keep in line with the Air Medal the AAF was giving out for simply flying X number of combat sorites.......so it was intenend from the begging to be given out a lot........not too much....as any reward system looses effectiveness if used too much.

The bottom line....the DWM is going to be HARDER to earn then the BSM.....because unlike the current rules for the BSM it requires actual employment of weapons system against our enemies.

As I stated before we have a whole lot of non-combat, high ranking officer/SNCO medals that do not require (or in some case may exclude) combat to be awarded.   To want the DWM to be down graded is really a slap to the face of the people who are IN COMBAT every day keeping our guys safe.....but they just do it from outside the combat zone.

All the current medals not really fit the RPA or the Cyber Warfare arenas........so we have the DWM.

[Devil Doc]

Lordmor, i agree and disagree, Cant they make the Air Medal or the DFC criteria for the Drone Medal?


I now some people who dont care what your chest has, If you do not have the "Combat Action Ribbon" you didnt earn nothing. lol

[ColonelJack]

News this evening that the DoD has put the new medal on hold, due to a big - and I mean BIG - but justified outcry from veterans and members of Congress.

Side note ... the new medal was almost instantly dubbed the "Nintendo" medal.   

Jack

[MSG Mac]

Second, I didn't confuse personal decorations with campaign medals. I was explaining how there was an obvious change in policy that once allowed this otherwise exception to policy -- and by the way, I know the individual who received these Korean campaign medals. He received the Occupation Medal for Japan at the same time.

Nice trick. The occupation ended in 1952, as did medal eligibility. I spent nine years stationed in Japan (off and on from 1973 to 1989), and never heard hint one about the Occupation Medal.

And the Korean War began in June 1950.  The soldier could have been stationed with the occupation Forces in either Korea or Japan ( Or the European Theater) prior to his experiences in the war.

[FlyTiger77]

Second, I didn't confuse personal decorations with campaign medals. I was explaining how there was an obvious change in policy that once allowed this otherwise exception to policy -- and by the way, I know the individual who received these Korean campaign medals. He received the Occupation Medal for Japan at the same time.

Nice trick. The occupation ended in 1952, as did medal eligibility. I spent nine years stationed in Japan (off and on from 1973 to 1989), and never heard hint one about the Occupation Medal.

And the Korean War began in June 1950.  The soldier could have been stationed with the occupation Forces in either Korea or Japan ( Or the European Theater) prior to his experiences in the war.

If I recall correctly, except for Task Force SMITH, the only US forces in proximity to the Korean peninsula were the ones occupying Japan. I don't remember how many troops flowed from Japan to Korea, but I believe it was not insubstantial.

Apropos of not much, I had a neighbor who was in an airborne unit in the Japanese occupation. Come to think of it, my grandfather may have been part of the occupation, too. (I knew the neighbor. My grandfather died before I was born.)

[lordmonar]

Lordmor, i agree and disagree, Cant they make the Air Medal or the DFC criteria for the Drone Medal?


I now some people who dont care what your chest has, If you do not have the "Combat Action Ribbon" you didnt earn nothing. lol

What about Cyber Ops or the non-Flyiers in the RPA kill chain?   

[SarDragon]

Second, I didn't confuse personal decorations with campaign medals. I was explaining how there was an obvious change in policy that once allowed this otherwise exception to policy -- and by the way, I know the individual who received these Korean campaign medals. He received the Occupation Medal for Japan at the same time.

Nice trick. The occupation ended in 1952, as did medal eligibility. I spent nine years stationed in Japan (off and on from 1973 to 1989), and never heard hint one about the Occupation Medal.

And the Korean War began in June 1950.  The soldier could have been stationed with the occupation Forces in either Korea or Japan ( Or the European Theater) prior to his experiences in the war.

If I recall correctly, except for Task Force SMITH, the only US forces in proximity to the Korean peninsula were the ones occupying Japan. I don't remember how many troops flowed from Japan to Korea, but I believe it was not insubstantial.

Apropos of not much, I had a neighbor who was in an airborne unit in the Japanese occupation. Come to think of it, my grandfather may have been part of the occupation, too. (I knew the neighbor. My grandfather died before I was born.)

(5) Units performing service In the Korean area during the period 27 June 1950 to 27 April 1952, inclusive, and eligible for the Korean Service Medal, will not be credited with eligibility for the Navy Occupation Service Medal (NOSM) for the same period.

There were US Naval units directly involved in combat in Korea, primarily aviation assets. To the best of my knowledge, they were not also considered occupation forces.

[flyboy53]

Second, I didn't confuse personal decorations with campaign medals. I was explaining how there was an obvious change in policy that once allowed this otherwise exception to policy -- and by the way, I know the individual who received these Korean campaign medals. He received the Occupation Medal for Japan at the same time.

Nice trick. The occupation ended in 1952, as did medal eligibility. I spent nine years stationed in Japan (off and on from 1973 to 1989), and never heard hint one about the Occupation Medal.

And the Korean War began in June 1950.  The soldier could have been stationed with the occupation Forces in either Korea or Japan ( Or the European Theater) prior to his experiences in the war.

If I recall correctly, except for Task Force SMITH, the only US forces in proximity to the Korean peninsula were the ones occupying Japan. I don't remember how many troops flowed from Japan to Korea, but I believe it was not insubstantial.

Apropos of not much, I had a neighbor who was in an airborne unit in the Japanese occupation. Come to think of it, my grandfather may have been part of the occupation, too. (I knew the neighbor. My grandfather died before I was born.)

(5) Units performing service In the Korean area during the period 27 June 1950 to 27 April 1952, inclusive, and eligible for the Korean Service Medal, will not be credited with eligibility for the Navy Occupation Service Medal (NOSM) for the same period.

There were US Naval units directly involved in combat in Korea, primarily aviation assets. To the best of my knowledge, they were not also considered occupation forces.

Guys,

The man I spoke about got the Occupation Medal for Japan -- not Korea. He was an Air Force sergeant, a cryptologic linguist, assigned to an AACS unit that was part U.S. Far East Air Forces (now PACAF) in Japan. He never left the islands, but because his duties were in direct support of the fighting in Korea (that statement is in a box on his discharge), he got the Korean Service and UN medals as well -- Interesting person; sixty years later and he still won't talk about what he did. He just smiles when you ask him.

As far as Task Force Smith. those were elements of the 8th Army and 24th Infantry Division who were the first ones to enter into combat in Korea. They were actually part of the occupation forces of Japan at the start of the Korean Conflict.

[SarDragon]

[Pylon]

FYI, just changing the name of this thread to a more accurate term as this medal is neither Marine Corps specific, nor limited to UAV's.

[Eclipse]

Pentagon scraps medal for drone pilots after uproar
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/15/us-usa-pentagon-medal-idUSBRE93E12V20130415

(Reuters) - The Pentagon said on Monday it will not issue a new medal to honor drone pilots and cyber warriors after uproar over the decision to rank this decoration above some medals given to troops wounded or killed in battle.

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel rolled back a decision by his predecessor, Leon Panetta, who two months ago unveiled a "Distinguished Warfare Medal" outranking the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart, awarded to wounded troops.

Hagel, a Vietnam veteran with two Purple Hearts, said instead the Pentagon would create a "distinguishing device" that can be affixed to existing medals.

[PHall]

I wonder if the "distinguishing device" is going to look like a game controller?

[teesquared]

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

I wonder if the "distinguishing device" is going to look like a game controller?

[Devil Doc]

I'm glad they Scrapped it.

[lordmonar]

I'm not.

Shows how much the government is beholdend to the VFW and such.

Not the first time. 

[CAPAPRN]

I do respect your beliefs MSgt- and I think there is an ongoing cyber war that most Americans are not even aware of. Major banks are continuously under assault- our power grid is at risk, the list goes on (the medal was not a drone pilot only award). I think what most people objected to was the placement of the medal in the order of precedence, and I believe that was also the major objection of the VFW and Order of the Purple Heart etc. Maybe I am just too old- I served over 30 years ago , perhaps this is the start of a "sea change" - perhaps the way we will stop a North Korean missile is by hacking the code for the controller as opposed to shooting it down with another missile.

[Devil Doc]

I'm not.

Shows how much the government is beholdend to the VFW and such.

Not the first time. 

Well, attaching a Device to a existing medal makes more since to me. If it was not ranked above a PH or BS it would have passed.

[lordmonar]

The problem is that "most people" don't really understand the military decoration system.

"the UAV medal" is higher then the PH and BS....because it is harder to earn then either of those.

The PH heart is awarded for everything from getting killed to getting a sprainged ankle......the injury must be sever enough to warrent "medical treatment".....i.e.  Nasty bruse....here's your motrin......and has to result due to enemy action.   

The BS....is a combat zone service medal!  It is not just for valor....lots of people get it......a lot of them for "just doing their job".

The reason why this new medal got any flack at all.....is because the general public and a lot of military personnel don't respect UAV and Cyber warriors.

[Devil Doc]

The problem is that "most people" don't really understand the military decoration system.

"the UAV medal" is higher then the PH and BS....because it is harder to earn then either of those.

The PH heart is awarded for everything from getting killed to getting a sprainged ankle......the injury must be sever enough to warrent "medical treatment".....i.e.  Nasty bruse....here's your motrin......and has to result due to enemy action.   

The BS....is a combat zone service medal!  It is not just for valor....lots of people get it......a lot of them for "just doing their job".

The reason why this new medal got any flack at all.....is because the general public and a lot of military personnel don't respect UAV and Cyber warriors.

I respect UAV and Cyber Warriors, we recovered one while one Deployment, they were watching our backs. They do a great job, and were glad to have them. It is a Sticky trail when it comes to awards, esp in the Marines. IMO some people that got a BS with no V, is a slap in the face to people who who hard in the trenches. A Combat device, just like the V, is just like a Device attaching to an Existing Medal.

[Private Investigator]

I wonder if the "distinguishing device" is going to look like a game controller?

ROFL   :clap: