Overweight CAP members in AF-style uniforms poll

[abdsp51]

They are kicking people out who CAN pass the PT test but happen to have a waistline greater than 38 inches.... even if they are within H/W standards....

We do not have H/W standards in the AF anymore.  And if they have a waistline of greater than 38 inches then they are not meeting the min or max for that category.  And I am willing to bet you that they are consistent with the measurement and not fluctuating.

At least as of 2007 we did. I know because I was below minimum weight to commission and had to gain about 5-7 lbs in a few weeks in order to commission. I also notice they took my height and weight during my PFT approximately 15 days ago.

Here are the standards if you want to join up from the AF site: http://www.airforce.com/height-weight/
Here they are with the minimum standards: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforcejoin/a/afmaxweight.htm

So for continued service, yes there are different rules. But there are still height/weight standards for joining

That is correct sir there are H/W for joining but not once you are in. 

[docbiochem33]

I have seen a lot of bigger people that have been in CAP uniforms and thought nothing of it.  I did the paperwork on a Senior Member that joined CAP at a unit I was in. She was like 5'4" tall and 170 pounds.  She didn't show up much, so I thought nothing of it with her and a uniform, that was until I saw her.

I was visiting encampment since it was close to home and there she was, all 170 short pounds of her in BDU's.  It was horrible and I guess since she lived close to the encampment they made her go home and get something to replace the BDU's.  It was horrible and made CAP look bad. 

I am glad they are pushing the H/W requirements since it makes us all look bad when a member looks bad.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That is correct sir there are H/W for joining but not once you are in.

I have seen AD, ANG and AFRES members who would likely not pass CAP H/W standards, let alone the AF.

[abdsp51]

That is correct sir there are H/W for joining but not once you are in.

I have seen AD, ANG and AFRES members who would likely not pass CAP H/W standards, let alone the AF.

There are no H/W requirements after you have enlisted or commissioned only for entry.  Hence why there is such the huge emphasis on the PT test.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are no H/W requirements after you have enlisted or commissioned only for entry.  Hence why there is such the huge emphasis on the PT test.

The MTI's certainly weighed us in BMT with some regularity.

In fact, some of the people I referred to were unfortunately colleagues in my ANG unit.  We had a TSgt in Personnel who was supremely competent at what he did, and respected for it, but if he were in CAP he would very likely not have been permitted to wear the AF uniform.

Of course, this was some years ago.

[abdsp51]

There are no H/W requirements after you have enlisted or commissioned only for entry.  Hence why there is such the huge emphasis on the PT test.

The MTI's certainly weighed us in BMT with some regularity.

In fact, some of the people I referred to were unfortunately colleagues in my ANG unit.  We had a TSgt in Personnel who was supremely competent at what he did, and respected for it, but if he were in CAP he would very likely not have been permitted to wear the AF uniform.

Of course, this was some years ago.

Bingo, up until 2003 there was H/W requirements and was ended in 2003 with the inplementation of the new PT test at the time that has gone through a few iterations resulting in the current state. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Bingo, up until 2003 there was H/W requirements and was ended in 2003 with the inplementation of the new PT test at the time that has gone through a few iterations resulting in the current state.

OK, then.  That's a long time after my Guard days.

[DerNarr]

When I was still active in CAP, few of the senior members even wore the AF uniforms. I was one of two or three in our squadron who wore the woodland BDUs, only three or four others would wear the AF blues. Most of them seemed content in just wearing the basic "golf shirt" uniform, probably because it was the easiest "uniform" to wear.

I think we should also ask ourselves, along with this question, if CAP should try to do more to address that problem of the "sloppy senior member." Surely there are a lot of button-poppers in CAP; I'm not trying to sound offensive with that, but I have to think that seeing quite overweight/obese senior members who don't properly wear any uniform and who don't follow any sort of military courtesies (i.e., returning a salute) doesn't leave a good impression on cadets of how CAP should really operate, especially if those cadets come back as senior members.

Food for thought, and YMMV.

[Майор Хаткевич]

IWAC. It's a whole different world on the SM side.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When I was still active in CAP, few of the senior members even wore the AF uniforms.

I'm still active, coming up on 20 years off-and-on.  When I first joined, my first squadron (composite) wore only the AF blues.  I didn't see a golf shirt or grey/white (which was different back then; no rank slides, no ribbons and the same nameplate as the blazer) until I went to my first Wing activity.  They were never referred to in my unit.

When I transferred (due to a move) to a senior flying club squadron, I was the only one who wore the AF uniform.  The rest wore a mixture of golf shirts, grey/white and (mostly) flight suits (insignia "optional").

Most of them seemed content in just wearing the basic "golf shirt" uniform, probably because it was the easiest "uniform" to wear.

It may be the "easiest," and cheapest, but to just own that is noncompliance with regs.  The minimum a senior must have is either the AF blue uniform or the grey/white.

I think we should also ask ourselves, along with this question, if CAP should try to do more to address that problem of the "sloppy senior member." Surely there are a lot of button-poppers in CAP; I'm not trying to sound offensive with that, but I have to think that seeing quite overweight/obese senior members who don't properly wear any uniform and who don't follow any sort of military courtesies (i.e., returning a salute) doesn't leave a good impression on cadets of how CAP should really operate, especially if those cadets come back as senior members.

It's a valid question.

My former squadron CC forbade one of our members from wearing the AF uniform because he always wore it filthy.  She restricted him to the old "Smurf suit," which is what he wore up until the end (unfortunately, he's passed on; despite his uniform faux-pas, he really was a nice guy).  I've seen too many members wear the G/W and/or golf shirt looking like they haven't been washed since the turn of the century.  The corporate uniforms are a lot easier to wear standards-wise than the AF ones; for cryin' out loud, at least send them through the washer and dryer before a meeting night and make sure your badges are correct.

However, the weight factor is one of those remaining unresolved issues that will probably remain so.

WRT C&C's...again, at my first unit that was enforced.  The entire squadron - seniors and cadets - formed up in the drill hall (Armed Forces Reserve facility) at the beginning and end of every meeting night.  I eventually became deputy commander and the CC was a good friend of mine.  However, when we were in uniform, on CAP time, we were always "Major" or "Captain" with each other.  After a meeting, we used our first names.  I haven't seen that since.

I still do that.  I never address a peer/subordinate by name; it's always rank/last name, and those higher ranked than I are "Major," "Colonel," "General" (I've met two former National CC's) or "sir/ma'am."  With NCO's it's always "Chief" (for CMSgts) or "Senior Master/Master/Technical/Staff Sergeant" on first greeting and "Sergeant" thereafter.

With cadets, it's always by their cadet rank or "Cadet Lastname."  Some seniors call cadets by name.  I personally don't, because they've earned their ranks and deserve that respect.

And, you know...sometimes when I do that, or salute, I get some very strange looks, not from cadets, but from other SM's.

[DerNarr]

It may be the "easiest," and cheapest, but to just own that is noncompliance with regs.  The minimum a senior must have is either the AF blue uniform or the grey/white.

I forgot, many of them had gotten that uniform as well by the time I'd stopped going. But for the most part, it seemed like the golf shirt uniform was most popular; I wore it occasionally before I got my BDUs patched up, and it isn't bad, it's just a matter of wearing it properly and carrying yourself well as a senior member. The clothes don't necessarily make the man!

Plus what you'd mentioned about the "flying club" types...well, that's a whole other issue, and I'm pretty sure everyone on here has their own stories and gripes, and the threads about that have probably been done to death.

[RiverAux]

Okay, we've got a decent number (for CAPTalk) of respondents to the poll and I think it is abundantly clear that we do have a major problem with seniors wearing the AF uniform who appear to be outside the current height-weight standards. 

If only 26% of CAP members can say that they see seniors that are apparently outside the standard less then 10% of the time, then its a regulations that isn't being enforced at all and needs to be addressed. 

Could it be fixed using current regulations?  Absolutely, but its clear that it has not been emphasized at any level in CAP and until it is, people are going to continue to ignore it.

If CAP is to retain any credibility and its authority to wear AF-style uniforms one of two things has to happen:

1.  Have some sort of mandatory weigh-in program for those who wish to wear AF-style uniforms.   
2.  Eliminate the height/weight requirements entirely.

Option 2 is unlikely to happen.  If we never had such a restriction, we could probably continue to maintain it, but I don't think we're going to convince an AF that requires airmen to have waists no larger than a set size to drop this particular requirement.

Option 1 is within our own control.  Individual commanders have this authority now but obviously have chosen not to use it or more likely don't know that this is really an option since it isn't presented as one in the regulations.

I think the most likely outcome is that CAP will do nothing and over time because of issues such as this we will lose our ability to wear AF-style uniforms.

Some people may argue that this would be a good thing for the organization and they have some decent points, but the loss of the minimal connection to the AF that we still have would be bad overall for CAP.

[SARDOC]

^^^Option 3.  Abandon the USAF style uniform altogether since we have demonstrated an organizational apathy to the privilege afforded us to wear it to begin with.

I am not one of those who says we are civilians and shouldn't be wearing a military style uniforms.  I would like for us to have a unifying organizational identity which is really the point of wearing a uniform to begin with. 

Our uniforms should be functional to serve our organizational missions and not to create an alternative because of someone's weight.  The Air Force finds that being overweight to be incompatible with military service but not the wearing of their uniform.  If an Airman is overweight they still wear the Air Force uniform because they are still in the Air Force...It's their Organizational Identity.

Being Overweight does not make a member incompatible with Civil Air Patrol service so if the Air Force doesn't want the members that are serving the mission of the Air Force and their auxiliary to wear that uniform is should be applied equally.

Now, if they Air Force came out with a requirement that to be part of the Air Force Auxiliary (Read AUX ON) you must be within USAF H/W standards that is a different argument altogether since you are now covered by their policies, insurance, et al.   However, the Air Force has no such restrictions. IOW if you are overweight we will gladly accept your efforts, risk, time, money to accomplish our mission but we don't value your affiliation enough to have you look like you represent our organization.  It's better to look good than actually be good.

[Eclipse]

What I've been saying for years is that if we simply enforced the regulations consistently and with consequences,
that, in and of itself, would impact change, because there's a lot of people in positions of high-visibility and influence
who would be impacted.

[RiverAux]

^^^Option 3.  Abandon the USAF style uniform altogether since we have demonstrated an organizational apathy to the privilege afforded us to wear it to begin with.

Its not an option if we want to continue the wear of the AF-style uniform, which was the premise behind the two options. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^Option 3.  Abandon the USAF style uniform altogether since we have demonstrated an organizational apathy to the privilege afforded us to wear it to begin with.

If all we have are the current "CAP corporate" options, count me out.

[SARDOC]

^^^Option 3.  Abandon the USAF style uniform altogether since we have demonstrated an organizational apathy to the privilege afforded us to wear it to begin with.

Its not an option if we want to continue the wear of the AF-style uniform, which was the premise behind the two options.

Yeah, I get that.  I'm just really curious about the requirements set forth by the air force and why they haven't suggested an alternative similar to the CSU.  They require the H/W standards but our members continue to violate Two of our own core values when they choose to wear it knowing they are outside of standards. 

As Volunteers, Uniforms and all the associated accoutrement are important to some people for many different reasons.  Uniforms are important to me but not in the "Hey, look at how cool I am" but more in the professional image, "we have a job to do, we have our crap together and we are the people you can trust to get this done." 

I think the USAF style uniform provides that professional image but because of our affiliation with them, a segment of our dedicated membership aren't allowed to wear it.  However, if we were a private Search and Rescue/Cadet Program organization we can go out and get whatever we want as long as it was distinctive enough not to violate the law.

I love the relationship we have with the Air Force and our shared heritage, but this is an item of contention for a lot more people than I thought.  I just want a single uniform that not only all of our membership can wear but actually want to wear and I know we can't please everyone but a majority and generate that professional image.

Sorry for the wandering rants.

[SARDOC]

If all we have are the current "CAP corporate" options, count me out.

Why is that?  What is it about the "CAP Corporate" uniforms that would make you not want to support our mission?

[SARDOC]

What I've been saying for years is that if we simply enforced the regulations consistently and with consequences,
that, in and of itself, would impact change, because there's a lot of people in positions of high-visibility and influence
who would be impacted.

I agree, as long as we have these rules they should be enforced.  I love seeing the Official Photos of CAP senior Leadership in the USAF Style uniform when we all know that they are out of standards.  It's blatantly violating some of our core values and nobody does anything.

If some of them actually followed the rules they might be more inclined to put a little more effort into creating a solution for our membership as a whole.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Why is that?  What is it about the "CAP Corporate" uniforms that would make you not want to support our mission?

It's not that I wouldn't "support our mission."

I am firmly against anything that distances us even further from the Air Force than we already have been.

The "corporate" uniforms, except for the nameplate, make no reference to our shared heritage, nor of aviation in general.

Plus, speaking only for myself, I find the G/W hideously monochromatic and ugly, and the blazer not even connected with aviation.

I do like the BBDU's and blue flight suit.