Dropping Brown Shirts?

[HGjunkie]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

How much sweat can your tightly rolled sleeves hold?

[SarDragon]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

It will, however slowly, evaporate, helping to cool you.

[Hawk200]

Yeah, but when it comes to people who tend to sweat a lot, like me, there's only so much sweat a pair of BDUs will hold.

Open up the cuffs. Just because your sleeves are down doesn't mean the cuffs have to tight. It opens up the entire shirt to airflow, makes a big difference. You won't be completely dry, but when you're hot and sweating, you shouldn't be.

[blkhwk]

   Generally, within the military regulations, a commander has some latitude when it comes to certain specific operational details. A commander can add to, but take away from regs.  I see no big problem with designating a certain color for staff undershirts. It serves to highlight those individuals. Specifically to a newer member who may not know who to go to with a problem. This is assuming that for one reason or another that his/her immediate leadership in otherwise unavailable.   

  I've attended large encampments where each flight had it's own color t-shirt. That helps with command and control, as you would know immediately who a cadet "belonged" to.  It also would serve to discourage one flight's cadet from mixing in with another flight if for some reason you were doing training at various "stations" with a different flight at each one.

  As far as the heat goes..... monitoring each member's well-being goes a long way. I believe the saying is "Everyone is a safety officer" You can remove the blouse when at the work site or the immediate area, but formations and movement are done in uniform.  All but the most strenuous activity can be accomplished in full uniform, as long as personnel stay hydrated, and are monitored for signs of impending heat injury. At least in CAP, you can have the option of keeping an A/C equipped vehicle nearby for cool down to stave off an actual heat injury. There are many times in the Army that I would have loved that option.

   But enough of my rambling, I will go away now...

[Eclipse]

I've attended large encampments where each flight had it's own color t-shirt. That helps with command and control, as you would know immediately who a cadet "belonged" to.  It also would serve to discourage one flight's cadet from mixing in with another flight if for some reason you were doing training at various "stations" with a different flight at each one.

Interesting that somehow the military, police departments, fire departments, and similar agencies in situations where life and property are at stake daily can somehow figure out "who owns who" when they are all dressed identically, yet we can't herd 10 "cats" during an encampment without an indicator visible from the air?

And if a unit CC or activity director decides to make his people "different", they need to understand that "difference" ends at his door or activity - don't show up to a mission or rocket launch outside your commander's AOR wearing an orange shirt and not expect to be sent home.

Excuses, rationalizations, and "because" hold no weight when you are in someone else's back yard.

[a2capt]

Interesting that somehow the military, police departments, fire departments, and similar agencies in situations where life and property are at stake daily can somehow figure out "who owns who" when they are all dressed identically, yet we can't herd 10 "cats" during an encampment without an indicator visible from the air?

These agencies folks *know* their chain of command, and for the most part, each others. So that alone makes things go a lot smoother.

[SARTAC Medic]

Really?   You would send a cadet home for not wearing a black or brown t shirt?  what if the cadet's mother accidentally bought them a package of the marine OD shirts?    So the cadet misses out on the activity because mom made a mistake?    As much as we like to believe, sometimes its hard to remember that CAP is largely a youth program now in some areas.   It may be simple to exclude a 30 year old senior member who can be confused by the public as a military member, but for a 13 year old cadet who does not have his own spending money....

[Eclipse]

In a word?  Maybe.

First, we need to separate the 12yro slick sleeve Airman from the defiant 15yro Chief who knows better.

Second, we are not "largely a youth program" - we are a paramilitary organization that has a youth component, and as such we
hold our members to a higher expectation.  The regs on the basic uniform components are clear and have not changed much in ten
years.  Rare is the extra-squadron activity without a clear prescription for uniform and equipment.  You can't play organized sports
without the proper gear and uniform, and will get sent home without it, why should we be different?

Exceptions do not serve our purpose or mission, and create dissension in the ranks among those who follow the rule.
There is a clear difference between field expediency in an emergency and doing whatever you feel and then making up a safety
or similiar excuse after the fact.

Third, there are regulatory realities at play - we can't even require BDU's at all, or anything else except the FCU unless we issue it to the cadets, but that also doesn't allow them to wear whatever they want simply because they have cash-flow issues or won't ask questions.

And in all cases, we should never, ever, just "look the other way".  No matter what the issue is, even if it isn't correctable onsite and the decision is to allow them to participate, they need to be privately and professionally corrected, with the understanding that the next time the uniform is worn it needs to be fixed.

[Eclipse]

and you don't post their photos...

[blkhwk]

 I feel I must further explain the different colored shirts. These were for wear as a uniform item at encampment ONLY. Plus, herding cats is sometimes easier than herding cadets....especially new ones....and ESPECIALLY when the encampment site is right across the street from an Army Air Field. It also removes the necessity of asking "who is your flight commander" when you find one acting up.

  Funny you should mention orange....that was my flight's color when I went to encampment as a Cadet back in 1995.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Nowhere in any CAP manual that I can find even states that you can take off your BDU blouse for heat related conditions, nor in any USAF manual. The Army, you cannot take off your blouse for any reason while out doors.

I have been told in INWG "Black flag, Down tops and headgear." I have never done so, if in an urban environment such as damage assessment or UDF operations it detracts from the publick knowing who we are (not just a bunch of rag tags. I have told my cadets if they wish, they can.  None do however.

The BDU uniform was made with another purpose in mind sun and insect protection. In MY opinion you shouldn't be taking off your blouse while working.

With the cadet in mind, the only reason I could think of for wearing the brown t shirt is that it shows sweat better. If a cadet stops sweating (a sign of a heat injury) you will know a lot easier if they are wearing a brown t shirt. Other than that there is no reason to wear brown.

Also I have never seen where an encampment says you have to bring brown and only brown t shirts. If they want CADRE to wear Black t shirts they should supply them. There is no reason to make a cadet buy uniform parts for just one occasion. When INWG holds an encampment they will most of the time give cadets a black t shirt with a logo for the encampment.

If it is in the Reg then there should be no one making anything that says otherwise. Reg is Reg and opinion is opinion. If you have an opinion nothing is wrong with that. Our squadron will supply cadets with brown t shirts, that is what we prefer, we will not make them buy one or the other though. One reason we supply them with brown is for the ability to see sweat when we are training.

If anyone does know where a reg says to take off tops and head gear for black flag conditions, please let me know. I would love to find out.

[HGjunkie]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

We are also the USAF Auxiliary. I don't understand your point I guess. Also who said we were para military? This has to do with uniformity and functionality of the uniform.

[jeders]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

Actually, we are. A paramilitary is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which is not regarded as having the same status.

As to manfred's assertion that you can't remove the BDU blouse, this has already been covered in this thread I believe. But in case yuo didn't see it, here ya go.

... [blouse] may be removed in the immediate work area. When removed ... T-shirt will be worn.

So yes, the blouse can be removed. But to add something substantive, no, I don't think we should drop the brown shirt. I think that 39-1 should be clarified in the shade of brown.

As far as a rainbow parade for different flights at encampments, six of one, half a dozen of the other. If it helps the encampment leadership, who don't necessarily have the level of training that instructors for police, fire, and military academies do, then use it. As long as the cadets are explicitly told that it stops as soon as they leave the encampment, I don't really care because it doesn't effect my squadron.

[Eclipse]

Jeders beat me to it on two points above...

[HGjunkie]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

Actually, we are. A paramilitary is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which is not regarded as having the same status.

According to TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > § 40301 US code:

(a) Federal Charter.— Civil Air Patrol (in this chapter, the “corporation”) is a federally chartered corporation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode36/usc_sec_36_00040301----000-.html

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Thank you for the clarification on what the 39-1 says. But that still doesn't really clarify my question (I don't think I explained well enough). While on a SAREX if you are out in the woods or in an urban environment not stationary (ie: searching for a beacon) are you able to take the  blouse and head gear off? I may be asking a dead horse kind of question. It only states in the immediate work area... does that mean while performing tasks such as a layout or does that mean you can travel by foot without your blouse?

We would not be the USAF Auxiliary were we not para military. Besides look at the rank structure and what the grade emblems are.

[jeders]

We're not a paramilitary organization... We're a Federally chartered corporation.

Actually, we are. A paramilitary is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which is not regarded as having the same status.

According to TITLE 36 > Subtitle II > Part B > CHAPTER 403 > § 40301 US code:

(a) Federal Charter.— Civil Air Patrol (in this chapter, the "corporation") is a federally chartered corporation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode36/usc_sec_36_00040301----000-.html

Yes, we are a federally chartered corp., we are also a paramilitary organization. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Thank you for the clarification on what the 39-1 says. But that still doesn't really clarify my question (I don't think I explained well enough). While on a SAREX if you are out in the woods or in an urban environment not stationary (ie: searching for a beacon) are you able to take the  blouse and head gear off? I may be asking a dead horse kind of question. It only states in the immediate work area... does that mean while performing tasks such as a layout or does that mean you can travel by foot without your blouse?

We would not be the USAF Auxiliary were we not para military. Besides look at the rank structure and what the grade emblems are.

It depends on what you're doing. Doing a ramp search (walking) when it's 120 outside and you've completely soaked through your blouse, I probably would say dress down if it keeps you cooler. Doing a search in the field (walking) when there are lots of branches and things that can scratch/hurt you, I would say absolutely not. Sitting around base/camp/impromptu hovel (immediate working area) waiting for a tasking, absolutely get comfortable.

Jeders beat me to it on two points above...

I do believe that's a first.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

QUOTE
It depends on what you're doing. Doing a ramp search (walking) when it's 120 outside and you've completely soaked through your blouse, I probably would say dress down if it keeps you cooler. Doing a search in the field (walking) when there are lots of branches and things that can scratch/hurt you, I would say absolutely not. Sitting around base/camp/impromptu hovel (immediate working area) waiting for a tasking, absolutely get comfortable.
/QUOTE

I agree, I just can't stand when it comes over commo that everyone is to down their tops and perform search ops in the woods or city. It is impractical in the woods and unprofessional in the city.