If you are too fat for the blues then you are too fat for BDU's!

[Robert Hartigan]

Besides being a uniform violations, a departure from the core value of integrity, and just bad form; if you exceed the USAF height weight standard then you are not supposed to wear the USAF style uniforms according to CAP manuals and regulations.

Put bluntly for those that are easily confused: If you are too fat for the blues then you are too fat for BDU's!

And, those that try to claim that the BDU's are not a USAF style uniform I say, "Poppycock and Fiddle Faddle!"

A height weight check at least yearly should be a requirement!

[DakRadz]

Actually, it's if you exceed the Civil Air Patrol height/weight standards. Slight but important difference.

[Eclipse]

Um...duh?

[ol'fido]

Besides being a uniform violations, a departure from the core value of integrity, and just bad form; if you exceed the USAF height weight standard then you are not supposed to wear the USAF style uniforms according to CAP manuals and regulations.

Put bluntly for those that are easily confused: If you are too fat for the blues then you are too fat for BDU's!

And, those that try to claim that the BDU's are not a USAF style uniform I say, "Poppycock and Fiddle Faddle!"

A height weight check at least yearly should be a requirement!

And your point is..?

[EMT-83]

For a minute, I thought I came in on page two.

[Patterson]

First Post!!   

What is the point you are making??  What about "Respect".  You are trying to make a point, but you lost that when you had to explain your point to us "easily confused" members.

So, will you be the first one on the scale? 

We also trust you to take your online CAP tests by yourself.  I think we should come to your house and watch you while you take those tests!!  How would that make you feel? 

[DakRadz]

First Post!!   

What is the point you are making??  What about "Respect".  You are trying to make a point, but you lost that when you had to explain your point to us "easily confused" members.

So, will you be the first one on the scale? 

We also trust you to take your online CAP tests by yourself.  I think we should come to your house and watch you while you take those tests!!  How would that make you feel?

In the words of SarDragon:

PM sent.

[Patterson]

In the Words of you:

PM sent.

[RVT]

Um...duh?

I'm 5'10" and 174 Lb.  I can gain 20 Lb and still be within USAF standards.  But I *look* fat.  Now what?

Or should I just be glad my wife is not in CAP?

[♠SARKID♠]

Rage against corn chips?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Those who get a yearly physical - and we all should - have a yearly height/weight check.

At almost 45 years old I'm not as skinny as I was at 18, plus some of the medication I take has the annoying side effect of weight gain, which means I have to take it upon myself to go to the health club.

When I was in high school I managed the wrestling team (I was too small to be an effective wrestler; I ran track) and they weighed-in before each match.  That's the imagery that's coming to mind right now.

You start doing that at CAP units and you're going to start having people stay away.

Basically it is up to us to ensure that we are within CAP uniform compliance in all areas, not just H/W.

If someone isn't, whether it be blues, BDU's, white/greys, CSU (please save it!), then it's down to the squadron CC to let the member know, using the "praise in public, admonish in private" method.

[RVT]

Those who get a yearly physical - and we all should - have a yearly height/weight check.

I don't actually look that bad.  I just don't look like I *want* to.  My CAP uniforms from 1984 still fit.

Not that it helps - All the colors changed.  Except for the shirts, those at least look like they are still 1549's

[Hawk200]

I'm 5'10" and 174 Lb.  I can gain 20 Lb and still be within USAF standards.  But I *look* fat.  Now what?

Look fat or getting a bit of gut? I'm the same height, and about the same weight. But, the stomach is starting to come out a tad.

I've been using a 5.11 compression undershirt, and it improves things. Just don't get the fancy stuff that has logos on it, they would probably show through a blue shirt.

[Flying Pig]

P90X

[C/Martin]

Ohh god. Not P90X!

[Eclipse]

Um...duh?

I'm 5'10" and 174 Lb.  I can gain 20 Lb and still be within USAF standards.  But I *look* fat.  Now what?

You wear the uniform or your choice and move on - the math isn't hard.  The regs say nothing about "looking fat",
only objective numbers.  Either you meet them or you don't.

If anyone challenges you, step on a scale.

[Flying Pig]

Ohh god. Not P90X!

  Its a great way to blast yourself into shape quick.  It does really work.  Myself and several people I know use it.  The issue is once you are done it will take some creativity to keep going.  You cant just keep doing P90X.   A guy i work with lost 25lbs in 3 months and can now do easily 20 dead hang pull ups, push ups and everything else.  A lot of cops I know have had it really transform them.  Its easy because you just do what they tell you.  There isnt a whole lot of research on your part.  As the videos tell you, if you cant do something, move past it and keep going.  They also provide a lot of options for people who may not be able to perform the exercises.

[RADIOMAN015]

The BDU does a very good job of hiding someone's weight.  Since the shirt isn't tucked in there's lots of wiggle room.

As far as mandatory weigh ins, surely that will enhance retention in CAP. :angel:    Generally, I don't see a big push to get the overweight members into  Blue BDU's.  (Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation). 

Frankly if anyone wears an appropriate AF style uniform that fits them well, whether they are overweight or not shouldn't be of anyones concern.   Just make sure ALL are uninforms get enough bright RED, WHITE, & BLUE on them so everyone knows it is CAP'ers and not AF'ers.    :angel:    
RM

[Hawk200]

Just make sure ALL are uninforms get enough bright RED, WHITE, & BLUE on them so everyone knows it is CAP'ers and not AF'ers.    :angel:    

Try the USO.

[tsrup]

(Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation). 

BS

[JohnKachenmeister]

(Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation). 

BS

Well said, El-Tee!

[Lorick]

This is a real problem, both for individuals and for CAP.  Many join, feeling part of the benefit is ability to wear the USAF uniform.

The art of volunteer leadership, IMHO, is maximizing each member obtaining THEIR goals from membership while insuring CAP mission accomplishment.  Each Commander MUST insure that each of their members joining understand their obligations as well as eligibility related to wear of the USAF style uniform. 

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility.  I don't care that the same member can ELT DF IMC to with 0.1 minute Lat/Long, and has 6 distress finds - the military member doesn't know that.  What he knows is that the CAP member is making the Military uniform look bad.  It is the CAP Unit Commander's responsibility to recognize and resolve the issue.

Wear of CAP Distinctive is NOT a "second class" uniform.  I know a retired USAF MG who wears little else.  It is the responsibility of the Commander to insure that this is the perception in their unit, as well as the reality.

That said (and I partially repeat others' notes):
(1) Integrity requires compliance with CAP 39-1, including Attachment 1 and grooming, if wearing ANY USAF uniform (includes BDU's - thou shall NOT quibble).
(2) SM's should be the role models for cadets - Integrity counts.  If you don't meet grooming, height/weight or not willing to keep USAF uniform looking sharp, wear a CAP distinctive uniform.  If you think cadets don't notice, think again.
(3) Having joined in 1965, I have seen multiple episodes of CAP about to lose the privilege of wearing the USAF style uniform due to outside height weight, grooming, etc.   This is VERY, VERY real.  As many will remember, USAF wanted to give us to the US Army at one point as well.
(4) For those who wish to argue that all CAP SM's should switch to CAP Distinctive, I can only tell you that (a) reality is that it would hurt retention worse than requiring Integrity in all we do and (b) Cadet Program Officers in particular would be at a disadvantage (how does one inspect something they can't wear?).  (NB: I was a bit appalled at someone's implication that we should let members slide on 39-1 due to concern about retention.  Integrity is not negotiable.)
(5) A previous National Commander installed scales at a National Board meeting entrance.  He only had to do it once.  While this is legitimate, hopefully a Commander can be more subtle and resort to this method only after in-private counseling fails.

The preceding represents my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of any other person nor Command.

LtCol Lorick Fox, CAP
C/LtCol, ret (1973)
PA Wing, GP4/CV
NER-PA-005

[arajca]

Wear of CAP Distinctive is NOT a "second class" uniform.  I know a retired USAF MG who wears little else.  It is the responsibility of the Commander to insure that this is the perception in their unit, as well as the reality.

Unfortunately, many who do wear the AF uniform believe the CAP distinctive uniform is a second class, not-quite-good-enough uniform.

That said (and I partially repeat others' notes):
(1) Integrity requires compliance with CAP 39-1, including Attachment 1 and grooming, if wearing ANY USAF uniform (includes BDU's - thou shall NOT quibble). No arguement here
(2) SM's should be the role models for cadets - Integrity counts.  If you don't meet grooming, height/weight or not willing to keep USAF uniform looking sharp, wear a CAP distinctive uniform.  If you think cadets don't notice, think again.What uniform you are wearing doesn't matter - you should wear any of them properly and sharply, not just the AF uniforms.
(3) Having joined in 1965, I have seen multiple episodes of CAP about to lose the privilege of wearing the USAF style uniform due to outside height weight, grooming, etc.   This is VERY, VERY real.  As many will remember, USAF wanted to give us to the US Army at one point as well.
(4) For those who wish to argue that all CAP SM's should switch to CAP Distinctive, I can only tell you that (a) reality is that it would hurt retention worse than requiring Integrity in all we do and (b) Cadet Program Officers in particular would be at a disadvantage (how does one inspect something they can't wear?).  (NB: I was a bit appalled at someone's implication that we should let members slide on 39-1 due to concern about retention.  Integrity is not negotiable.) How can I inspect a cadet uniform if I don't wear it? Real easy. RTFM. Male cadets don't wear female uniforms, so they cannot inspect female cadets? Or vis-versa? I don't have to wear the AF uniform to know if some cadet (or senior) is wearing it wrong. That is another attitude making the CAP distinctive uniforms "second class" uniforms.
(5) A previous National Commander installed scales at a National Board meeting entrance.  He only had to do it once.  While this is legitimate, hopefully a Commander can be more subtle and resort to this method only after in-private counseling fails.

The preceding represents my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of any other person nor Command.

My comments in italics

[RiverAux]

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility.

Keep in mind that even our official height/weight standards are 10% above a standard not even used by the AF anymore, so a CAP member in an AF style uniform could be entirely legal as far as our regulations are concerned and still be seen as "fat" by military members expecting an even higher standard.  Especially those in the AF who are used to having to meet requirements for waist size. 

I would also contend that fat CAP members are always going to start off with a respect deficit when they come in contact with the military no matter what uniform they're wearing.  Do you think that they're going to have much respect for the abilities of a 350 pound CAP member in a blue BDU either when they first see them?

Fat CAP members will always make the organization look bad whether they're wearing military style uniforms, CAP distinctive uniforms, or the golf shirt (bulging bellies are quite obvious in them too, if you haven't noticed).  We aren't hiding the fat people by not letting them wear AF style uniforms. 

So, if you believe this issue is important your only logical policy recommendation would be to have height/weight standards that you have to meet to stay in the organization. 

Personally, I don't believe this issue is that critical and there is no need to go to that extreme. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility.  I don't care that the same member can ELT DF IMC to with 0.1 minute Lat/Long, and has 6 distress finds - the military member doesn't know that.  What he knows is that the CAP member is making the Military uniform look bad.

Agreed, to a point.  I've seen a fair number of older AF people, both officer and NCO, who look portly in their uniforms.

Wear of CAP Distinctive is NOT a "second class" uniform.  I know a retired USAF MG who wears little else.  It is the responsibility of the Commander to insure that this is the perception in their unit, as well as the reality.

Agreed.  I just don't see why some are so zealous that for it to be "distinctive," it has to be grey.

Having joined in 1965, I have seen multiple episodes of CAP about to lose the privilege of wearing the USAF style uniform due to outside height weight, grooming, etc.   This is VERY, VERY real.  As many will remember, USAF wanted to give us to the US Army at one point as well.

I joined in 1993 during the horrible "berry boards" era.  That was all of CAP getting punished for the misdeeds of a few who thought they were actually Curtis LeMay.  I don't remember being given to the Army mentioned, but I remember John McCain wanting to disband us entirely or give us to DOT.

For those who wish to argue that all CAP SM's should switch to CAP Distinctive, I can only tell you that (a) reality is that it would hurt retention...

Agreed, sir, but I also know quite a few, especially in senior squadrons, who aren't very concerned with wearing a uniform at all.

The preceding represents my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of any other person nor Command.

Seconded.

[PHall]

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility. LtCol Lorick Fox, CAP
C/LtCol, ret (1973)
PA Wing, GP4/CV
NER-PA-005

And 99% of Air Force personnel never come into contact with a CAP member in uniform.

Can't lose much credibility if they don't even know you exist.

[Lorick]

No real issue with any comments (reasonable people may disagree ), except about "99% of USAF" not having contact - flatly not so.

You would be amazed the number of USAF personnel who are (or at least feel they are) VERY acquainted with CAP.  Unfortunately, not generally favorably.
I spent most of the last 8 years in Egypt supporting the Peace Vector (F-16) program there (at PV-IV-GSC).  Very small number of USAF people (almost random selection of ground and air crew), but only a VERY few didn't have definite opinion about CAP, mostly based on appearance/behavior.

I also admit I am prejudiced from years in VAWG where we had constant contact at Langley AFB, Utah Wing at Hill, and then at RMR and SWR HQ. which obviously had more frequent contact with USAF personnel.

I would add that one of my proudest moments was at a Summer Encampment at Quantico MCAS when the Master Gunnery Sergeant who was Liaison for our host unit (to whom I had been VERY clear that his personnel were NOT required to salute CAP officers) walked up, saluted and said "Major, your Seniors look like officers and act like officers so I have instructed my personnel to treat them as officers, if that's alright with you, Sir".  I am not in the habit of arguing with Master Gunny's and I certainly didn't start then.

I will add that I knew a CAP Group Commander who didn't meet CAP height weight, but was an active USAF officer - so could NOT wear CAP Blues but could wear USAF blues!.

[RVT]

Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation

Actually I'm having a hard time coming up with any reason why a senior needs a BDU uniform for anything at all in California.  Of either type.

[SarDragon]

Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation

Actually I'm having a hard time coming up with any reason why a senior needs a BDU uniform for anything at all in California.  Of either type.

Because we do get outside SQ HQ into the field once in a while, and having a utility uniform available makes the job a little easier. Not all the field work we do requires the GT uniform. Think encampments, comm exercises, etc.

[billford1]

I wear the BBDU to Sarex's where there's usually a good turn out for GT training. I know people who wear the BDU and no other AF uniform. When there's a SAR mission I consider it lucky when  GT folks show up. If there's the guy who is GT Qualified, is clean shaven, a little heavy set and wears the BDU there's no way I want anyone to question his uniform eligibility because he's not trim enough. If we tell the guy he can no longer wear "that uniform" his response is likely to be "Good Bye". I would like it if others wore the same uniform as me when we're on CAP Business but honestly I'm just glad when they've showed up. If we're not being watched by RM folks who really care about how we look then perhaps it's good to just leave things alone so we can just do the job if we get one as long as the uniform is worn correctly as needed for an AFAM. In two different States I've seen occasions when there's someone who shouldn't have worn the BDU to the AF graded Sarex but I've yet to hear AF Evaluators make mention of it.

[Krapenhoeffer]

You know that there are many people who are sick of the "it's the mission that counts, so 39-1 doesn't matter." Except that it does. It does not take very long to ensure that one is in the correct uniform for the job. If you do not meet weight/grooming standards, and you wear the BDUs, you are in violation of one of the core values.

One does not need BDUs to do GSAR. BBDUs and polos with gray Dickies work wonders. Regulations are regulations, and EVERY member of CAP swore to follow them when they joined.

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore, I feel that the regs should be more lenient regarding BDUs, but that's just my opinion, and until the regs get changed (if they get changed), we have to follow the guidelines set forth by regulation.

[Eclipse]

Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation

Actually I'm having a hard time coming up with any reason why a senior needs a BDU uniform for anything at all in California.  Of either type.

Seriously? What do you think Senior members are supposed to be doing?  Just aircrew and staff jobs?

[Eclipse]

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore,

The USAF and Navy still wear the BDU's.

[PHall]

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore,

The USAF and Navy still wear the BDU's.

Not for long, the wear out date for the USAF is in 15 months.

[Eclipse]

Its not worth arguing about, but the constant assertion that "no one" is wearing BDU's anymore contradicts my Mark I eyeballs.

Are they phasing out?  Yes.  Gone? Hardly.  In fact my NEX actually brought them back after having them off the racks for a few months, and that's despite the official wear approval of the NWU.

And considering that the BDU phase out and the CAP "no change moratorium" almost coincide, they best course is to simply wait and see.
Including any assumed reasonable sundown, CAP will be in camo for at least the next 3-4 years, which for anyone reasonably active is the lifespan of a set of BDUs (whether you grow out of them or wear them out), and 3-4 years is longer than some members stay in.

A lot of people will join and leave before ever seeing anything but camo BDU's.

[billford1]

You know that there are many people who are sick of the "it's the mission that counts, so 39-1 doesn't matter." Except that it does. It does not take very long to ensure that one is in the correct uniform for the job. If you do not meet weight/grooming standards, and you wear the BDUs, you are in violation of one of the core values.

One does not need BDUs to do GSAR. BBDUs and polos with gray Dickies work wonders. Regulations are regulations, and EVERY member of CAP swore to follow them when they joined.

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore, I feel that the regs should be more lenient regarding BDUs, but that's just my opinion, and until the regs get changed (if they get changed), we have to follow the guidelines set forth by regulation.

1. The Mission Counts. 2. CAPM39-1 Definitely does matter. I agree that the uniform should be worn correctly. 3. It is my opinion that enforcement of strict AF weight standards for wear of the BDU is a bit too arbitrary. The BDU should be acceptable for all All. 3. It is not established that to work an AFAM there is a requirement for correct wear of the selected CAP uniform be it BBDU, BDU or other CAP uniform?  4. When you speak of ensuring the correct uniform for the job do you mean that the Team should all wear the same uniform? I prefer it that way. For most Missions the Polo is my uniform of choice.  At the end of the day as a GTL my goal is that everyone aboard be equipped in such a way that there would be no denial of coverage under FECA for any of them.

[ol'fido]

Let's see...
1. You've decided that fat people are stupid, lazy, and sloppy and can't be trusted to wear a uniform that is appropriate or fits or not where one if called for. In other threads, it's been said that fat people should just go away so that everybody will appear to be orderly, proficient, and military.

2. That unless someone follows every regulation, rule, policy, etc. to the letter 24/7, then they are completely without integrity, shouldn't be leaders, and are just all around duds and incompetents.

3. Anything else that they have done or accomplished no matter how selfless, helpful, or meritorious is negated by 1 and 2.

That is what this thread is saying to me.


Well, if you think that then... Phhhhhhhhht!!!

[GaryJSO]

Ignoring obvious weight issues still happens even in the "regular" USAF.  Check out the link for a photo of the AMC 4-star at a the 18AF change of command ceremony Aug 09.

http://www.618tacc.amc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090819-F-2393F-031.jpg

The only thing more incredible than a 4-star being this far out of standard, is the PAO having the bad judgement to post the photo on www.af.mil.

[tarheel gumby]

That ain't right, but it is something that is all to common. I have seen Airmen that outweigh me and I am not within the weight standards. I get a little annoyed when I read the rants against those of us that are not the most slender and fit. When is common sense going to be used with this issue. There is a uniform that when properly worn looks very professional, use it and quit making us look bad, the AF dose a good enough job of that. I don't think that I have seen very many AF personnel that meet the standard recently..... I have seen a large number that are waay out of the standard. The point that I want to make is, If you don't meet the standard don't wear any AF style uniform. We are supposed to play by the rules, to not do so hurts our image. I should also add that I work in the hospitalty industry and see a wide range of people. The Marines and Army have the least problem that I have seen.

[Short Field]

The only thing more incredible than a 4-star being this far out of standard, is the PAO having the bad judgement to post the photo on www.af.mil.

How do you know he is out of standards?  You are just judging his weight and deciding he is out of standard based on a photo.  Do you know how he scored on the Air Force Fitness Program (aerobic (running), body-composition, push-ups, and crunches)?  The AF does not use a body fat or maximum weight standard now once people are out of initial training.

[RVT]

Seriously? What do you think Senior members are supposed to be doing?  Just aircrew and staff jobs?

I'm saying there is no duty in California that its the best uniform choice for, now that it is effectively out as a ground SAR outfit.  Might be if I was in a cadet or composite unit - but I'm not.

[TCMajor]

Short Field,
        After more than 22-years on active duty in the Army, I can tell you that the General is definitely out of the normal grid for height/weight standards.  What is not known is if there is a medical reason for this.  That is the only way that a soldier/airman can be out of tolerance for an extended period of time.  I can also tell you that, as you stated, height/weight standards and performance on physical readiness test are often mutually exclusive.  I have, on more than one occasion, seen a soldier almost max the PRT but bust H/W and then bust body fat.  Bottom line:  Present a professional appearance in uniform(gets you through first impressions stage), then do your job better than anyone on mission(solidifies the positive impression that was first made).  Uniforms are important, but no one has any use for PX soldiers that just want to look good, but can't do mission to save their butt.  You can and should do both successfully.  It is the mark of a true professional.

[MSgt Van]

This isn't limited to CAP. I had a word with my Liason regarding the appearance of a reserve Capt that visited our unit. Overweight, stuffed into a too-small flight suit (no, he wasn't flying), and cheap KMart (no offense) brown hiking boots.  Unacceptable.

[Eclipse]

Seriously? What do you think Senior members are supposed to be doing?  Just aircrew and staff jobs?

I'm saying there is no duty in California that its the best uniform choice for, now that it is effectively out as a ground SAR outfit.  Might be if I was in a cadet or composite unit - but I'm not.

Why would being in a cadet or composite unit change anything?

[Short Field]

I can also tell you that, as you stated, height/weight standards and performance on physical readiness test are often mutually exclusive.  I have, on more than one occasion, seen a soldier almost max the PRT but bust H/W and then bust body fat.  Bottom line:  Present a professional appearance in uniform(gets you through first impressions stage), then do your job better than anyone on mission(solidifies the positive impression that was first made). 

Based on my 28 years of AF active duty with over half that time spend assigned with other services, I can tell you that H/W and body fat are not a cure for the larger guts people get as they age.  The main concern for a lot of Army and Navy officers was to get their necks to the next 1/2 inch in order to meet the body fat standard. We also don't want to talk about the people who come into the service with a skinny built and minimum muscles and then gain 40 lbs in the gut but still meet the H/W standard despite looking pregnant.   But that is secondary to this discussion.

GaryJSO, the USAF doe not current use H/W or body fat to determine if a person is within standards except for initial training and the accession programs.  If he passes the Air Force Fitness Program test (aerobic (running), body-composition, push-ups, and crunches), then he is within standards.  The only people with opinions that count seem to not have a problem with the General.

[SarDragon]

Seriously? What do you think Senior members are supposed to be doing?  Just aircrew and staff jobs?

I'm saying there is no duty in California that its the best uniform choice for, now that it is effectively out as a ground SAR outfit.  Might be if I was in a cadet or composite unit - but I'm not.

If all your unit does is fly, then that might be true. I wear BDUs any time I'm going to be doing "dirty" tasks, usually comm related stuff.

[Eclipse]

If all your unit does is fly, then that might be true.

If all your unit does is "fly", you're doing it wrong.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If all your unit does is fly, then that might be true.

If all your unit does is "fly", you're doing it wrong.

:clap: :clap:

[PHall]

If all your unit does is fly, then that might be true.

If all your unit does is "fly", you're doing it wrong.

Flying IS all that unit does.

[Eclipse]

If all your unit does is fly, then that might be true.

If all your unit does is "fly", you're doing it wrong.

Flying IS all that unit does.

Please see above...

[SarDragon]

OK, hypothetical situation here.

Senior squadron. Better than 50% regularly participating. 25% FAA pilots. 10 % CAP pilots. Most non-pilots are MO/MP rated or trainee.

Typical non-meeting participation includes AFM participation, SAREX participation, Cadet O-flights, CD missions. The unit has active in-unit and external AE programs.

What else should the unit be doing besides flying? Inquiring minds really want to know.

[Eclipse]

Mission base staff training, especially in less fun areas like logistics and support.

GT and UDF training.

Professional development to make them better members and help carry some of the weight of the rest of the wing.

SLS/CLC/TLC/UCC/OBC/AEPSM and then serving as staff for those after completing them personally.

Wing conference planning.

Encampment staffing, community relations, blah, blah, blah.

[TCMajor]

well, this thread took an interesting turn.  Back to point.

The only people with opinions that count seem to not have a problem with the General.

Very true, at his level he pretty much only answers to the political suits.  Its up to the CSM to fix him.  Once again the NCOs have to carry the standard..   Eclipse, were you a combat controller?  I started out as a Combat Engineer (sapper), then went to Transportation Corps.  We did a ton of work with AF, and the Navy of course. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The only people with opinions that count seem to not have a problem with the General.

Or else they don't voice those opinions...could have career repercussions, yes?

[Short Field]

The only people with opinions that count seem to not have a problem with the General.

Or else they don't voice those opinions...could have career repercussions, yes?

The General is only beholden to and serves at the pleasure of the CSAF, SAF, SECDEF, and POTUS.  I don't believe any of them have any concerns about career repercussions in removing the General. 

[Hawk200]

The only people with opinions that count seem to not have a problem with the General.

Or else they don't voice those opinions...could have career repercussions, yes?

The General is only beholden to and serves at the pleasure of the CSAF, SAF, SECDEF, and POTUS.  I don't believe any of them have any concerns about career repercussions in removing the General.

He wasn't talking about the general or the various secretaries.

[Short Field]

Then their opinions didn't count.... So why was Cyborg quoting me?  And they both still miss the point that they do not know if the General was out of regs.  All they know is they don't like how he looks in a uniform based on standard that does not exist in the USAF.

[SABRE17]

so i have a small question

i am the supply NCO at my unit, my unit is graced with having (almost literally) a tractor-trailer full of BDU's, recently a new senior member asked me to equip him, he is... large. i havent issued the uniform yet but what should i do?

A) i cant issue these because you are over weight standards
B) issue them and say this might be legal idk?
C) issue them and turn a blind eye


also what about cadets, how do i go about explaining this to them, i dont want anyone to quit or get angry "you called my son fat" phone calls or get repremanded but im a firm believer in making CAP look good in military eyes.

[arajca]

Seniors - Talk to your chain of command.
Cadets - H/W standards do not apply to cadets under 18. 18 and up, they do.

[Hawk200]

So why was Cyborg quoting me?

Read the post just above Cyborg's.

And they both still miss the point that they do not know if the General was out of regs.  All they know is they don't like how he looks in a uniform based on standard that does not exist in the USAF.

There are standards, but the general's results to measure with those standards are most likely not available to this board.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So why was Cyborg quoting me?

Apparently I was not clear.

What I meant is that those junior to the General would not find making such an observation good for their careers.

I apologise for any confusion.

[tsrup]

so i have a small question

i am the supply NCO at my unit, my unit is graced with having (almost literally) a tractor-trailer full of BDU's, recently a new senior member asked me to equip him, he is... large. i havent issued the uniform yet but what should i do?

A) i cant issue these because you are over weight standards
B) issue them and say this might be legal idk?
C) issue them and turn a blind eye


also what about cadets, how do i go about explaining this to them, i dont want anyone to quit or get angry "you called my son fat" phone calls or get repremanded but im a firm believer in making CAP look good in military eyes.

It all depends on how you go about the situation.  How can you tell the new member exceeds h/w standards (even if its painfuly obvious).  Is there a scale at gear issue?  Did you weigh the new member?  Is every new member weighed before being issued BDUs?  These are important questions to think about, and if you do think about the impact they could have, you can save yourself future headaches.

[RiverAux]

Tell your commander the situation and the commander can ask for a height/weight check. 

[RickFranz]

so i have a small question

i am the supply NCO at my unit, my unit is graced with having (almost literally) a tractor-trailer full of BDU's, recently a new senior member asked me to equip him, he is... large. i havent issued the uniform yet but what should i do?

A) i cant issue these because you are over weight standards
B) issue them and say this might be legal idk?
C) issue them and turn a blind eye


also what about cadets, how do i go about explaining this to them, i dont want anyone to quit or get angry "you called my son fat" phone calls or get repremanded but im a firm believer in making CAP look good in military eyes.

What I have done in the past is to have a copy of the height and weight  chart and have the member look at it and then ask them how tall they are.  I think you will find that the conversation will change to something like well what do I wear then.   Then you can tell him about the other uniform options.

[RVT]

so i have a small question

i am the supply NCO at my unit, my unit is graced with having (almost literally) a tractor-trailer full of BDU's, recently a new senior member asked me to equip him, he is... large. i haven't issued the uniform yet but what should i do?

It would be interesting to see if you HAVE bdu's that size - and if they were surplussed out to you - who were they initially intended for?

[SABRE17]

 who were they initially intended for?

my unit is based on OTIS ANBG cape cod, former home to the 102nd fighter wing and now home to a couple AF communications units etc. the switch to ABU's has yielded plentiful stacks of BDU's

and i have yet to fit said SM so i do not know if i have sizes that would fit him (probabbly dont)

[RVT]

and i have yet to fit said SM so i do not know if i have sizes that would fit him (probably don't)

I wasn't aware that CAP issued free uniforms to seniors, but its not likely you are going to have a cadet that size anyway.  And what else would you do with them?  All a BDU of any size is good for is a person who fits in it.

[SABRE17]

my unit issues them because we HAVE them, we are blessed with having so many, at MA wing conference i singled out some of the less good uniforms and gave them away, i do believe the national commander grabbed a set along with just about everyone there.

and your right, ill only issue what fits, no fit, no uniform.

[arajca]

and i have yet to fit said SM so i do not know if i have sizes that would fit him (probably don't)

I wasn't aware that CAP issued free uniforms to seniors, but its not likely you are going to have a cadet that size anyway.  And what else would you do with them?  All a BDU of any size is good for is a person who fits in it.

Generally, if CAP has uniforms to issue, they'll issue to any member, senior or cadet, for whom that uniform is appropriate.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Correct me if I'm wrong... But I thought that cadets under 18 only had to meet grooming, not height/weight...

[JohnKachenmeister]

Krapen:

You're wrong.  Cadets over 18 are under the same rules as SM's.  Don't meet h/W, don't wear AF uniforms.

[arajca]

Krapen:

You're wrong.  Cadets over 18 are under the same rules as SM's.  Don't meet h/W, don't wear AF uniforms.

Krapenhoeffer is correct:

Correct me if I'm wrong... But I thought that cadets under 18 only had to meet grooming, not height/weight...

[Ops Guy]

Speaking as a Senior from Sabre's squadron. It is not a cadets place to issue or not issue a uniform requested by a Senior. It would however be the squadron Commanders obligation to inform the senior that this type of uniform might be inappropriate, and refer him to the regulations.

We need to follow the rules of the road so to speak, but when we go to conferences and Majors and Lt. Colonels are wearing uniforms that obviously don't fit, it is hard to explaint this to new seniors. Hopefully they have enough respect for the uniform not to wear it.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Krapen:

You're wrong.  Cadets over 18 are under the same rules as SM's.  Don't meet h/W, don't wear AF uniforms.

Krapenhoeffer is correct:

Correct me if I'm wrong... But I thought that cadets under 18 only had to meet grooming, not height/weight...

Oops.  My bad.  Should have read it more carefully.