Do we really need 72-hour "packs"?

[lordmonar]

I'm not saying we should not bring the gear.....I just don't see a need to stick all of it into a large backpack.

I have a large A-2 bag with my 72 hour hear.  All my 24 hour gear fits into my LBV.  I carry a large Camble Back back pack that I can load out with extra gear based on the weather/enviornment when I actually go out into the field.

[Spike]

^ I do the similar. 

With the Squadron Ground team, I sack all the gear and stow it in the back of the van.  Carrying around all that stuff is ill in my book.  Having it available if need be is what I provide. 

[jimmydeanno]

Here are my thoughts:

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

I carry nearly everything that is on the list in my 24 hour pack.  Some things just aren't needed where I am (like insect repellent in November).  So I modify my pack based on the season and current conditions.

With that said, in those 11 years of doing GT work, I have never had a need for even a 24 hour pack, let alone a 72 hour pack.  Even more so, not a single one of those missions involved trekking through the woods for any great distance, let alone staying for 3-days.

However, take the Steve Fossett or Katrina missions for a good example.  If you were "deployed" to that mission from somewhere other than where you were from, it would probably be a good idea to bring the 72 hour gear list.  But, an urban area like New Orleans, you aren't going to be carrying around 72 hour gear.  In the middle of the desert of Nevade, same thing, you aren't going to be sent out for days without a return to base.

While I think that the 3-day in the field sounds cool, I don't think it is something that is truly practical for our organization.  We have air resources available that help us reduce search areas.  There aren't too many places left in the country that you could be alone for three days without some sort of interaction with civilization, other organizations are better equipped to handle many of these extended missions.

So, for the examples about, what I would do is carry my 24 hour gear and leave the other 48 hours worth of stuff back at the base in a duffle bag or storage container.  After each sortie, 4-R with the extra gear.

I also think that the 72 hour gear, if loaded onto your back poses a pretty good safety hazard to a lot of our members.  My physician recommends that I don't exceed 15% of my body weight for backpacks, etc.  So, for me that's 24 lbs.  My 24 hour pack weight around 12.  Putting 72 hour gear, I would assume, most of our members would be reaching the 40-50 pound range and some hooah cadets would be reaching the 60 pound range (50% of their weight).

The only times in CAP that I've had extended periods of time in the woods, or even slept overnight in an ES environment were during training.  Our last SAREX involved my ground team acting as victims for the aircraft to find.  We ended up sleeping on the top of a 4,100 ft. mountain.  Even that didn't require the use of sleeping bags or tents.  Grab the poncho, find a soft bit of grass, we were good.

So, long story short,  I do not think that CAP should use the model of having a 72 hour pack and a 24 hour pack.  I think the 72 hour gear should be for replenishment of the 24 hour gear.

[Rodriguez]

I think the best thing we can do is be smart about this. What I mean is take things into context. The problem I find many times, is members are taught how to pack their gear in a very "by the book" manner. Now, dont get me confused, Im not saying to disrgard regs or anything of the sort. But, many times the training members get dosnt show members how to adapt. This is especialy true of cadet ground team members. They are taught "this is what you MUST have in your gear and if not then its wrong". When I teach members, and ive been giving classes to cadets and senior members alike for nearly 3 years now, I teach them that yes the regs provide a solid basis for what you need, however many times its good to take a personal view of your gear and see what you need and dont need to perform at the best of your abilities.

This is important if we go on a 72-hour search for a missing aircraft in the Florida Everglades, or if were out at a regional airport looking for an ELT. I just think more emphasis should be put on teaching rather than simply quoting regs.

[heliodoc]

BITD (CAP circa 1970's)

There were loose requirements for LBE  and duffel bags with stuff longer than two days.

Come around 2000 and a GT manual finally shows up after years of trials and tribulations of CAP " gear."

It would be nice if the were some practicality in the whole scheme of things.  Even RM guys do always "adhere " to all the MUSTs.  CAP has a way of teaching the "what you must have" mantra.  I am sure this all stems from the PA Hawk and NESA programs.

Rodriguez and jimmydeanno sum it up beautifully.  Pack according to your comfort levels and make sure one has the basic compliments and load.

The CAP GT manual needs to be updated and reviewed by more than just CAP itself.  Yep the quoting of regs is far too obvious in  in CAP.  The GT manual is simply a guideline and CAPers need to realize that.

[Nick]

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

This may seem like a silly question, but through all my years in the program I've never really seen a nice solution ... what do y'all use to document missions for personal record?    The CAPF 114 is great for an ES officer, but I'm talking about something for individuals to keep for themselves -- more or less like a pilot's logbook, but ... well, different.  Thoughts?

[heliodoc]

CPT McLArty,

If you want, you can support Vanguard and spend about 9 dinero, there's a logbook like the smaller pilot's logbook.

I thought CAP used to have a construction paper folder to document mission numbers ans position held

Best I can do for ya now.

[heliodoc]

Sorry guys

Two posts ago....  I meant to say....  RM guys do not always adhere to the MUSTS.  The have been doing and redoing their back according to mission and their levels of comfort.

Typing has not been easy for me

[jimmydeanno]

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

This may seem like a silly question, but through all my years in the program I've never really seen a nice solution ... what do y'all use to document missions for personal record?    The CAPF 114 is great for an ES officer, but I'm talking about something for individuals to keep for themselves -- more or less like a pilot's logbook, but ... well, different.  Thoughts?

I have one of those little $0.15 1/4 page spiral bound notebooks.  I just put the date, mission number, who I was with, target and whether it was a find or not.  Sometimes I'll put little notes in there about weird things we came across.

Nothing fancy. 

[Nick]

CPT McLArty,

If you want, you can support Vanguard and spend about 9 dinero, there's a logbook like the smaller pilot's logbook.

I thought CAP used to have a construction paper folder to document mission numbers ans position held

Best I can do for ya now.

Yeah, I forgot they had those ... but I refuse to fund Vanguard unless absolutely necessary.

[SarDragon]

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

This may seem like a silly question, but through all my years in the program I've never really seen a nice solution ... what do y'all use to document missions for personal record?    The CAPF 114 is great for an ES officer, but I'm talking about something for individuals to keep for themselves -- more or less like a pilot's logbook, but ... well, different.  Thoughts?

I use a CAPF 114, and keep copies of all the closing traffic for missions I've participated in. The logbook from Vanguard works well for more detailed tracking.

[starbase OK cadet]

come on gys its just good to have. i know you barly use it but if you need it one day and you dont have it or the mony to get it your out of luck

[davidsinn]

come on gys its just good to have. i know you barly use it but if you need it one day and you dont have it or the mony to get it your out of luck

I don't think anyone is saying the gear is useless. Only the requirement to be able to carry it. I'm considering repacking mine into a duffel or large tub for easier handling in vehicles,

[JayT]

Come on guys, it's just good to have. I know you'll barely use it but if you need it one day and you don't have it, or the money to get it you're out of luck.

What sort of situation would you be in that requires emergency purchasing of gear?

[jimmydeanno]

"Hey cadet, we have a mission we need your help with!"

"Alright!  Just let me stop at walmart first, I need to get some gear!"

That doesn't happen to you?  >)

[JoeTomasone]

I know the boonie hat was denied by the Air Force, but I know of one wing that has a supplement authorizing them. Is it legal if the Air Force says "No", but the local wing allows it?

USAF denying it is not relevant; 39-1 denying it is.

39-1 has a list of items that the Wing Commander may authorize:

The wing/region commander has authority to approve the following items for
wear within his/her wing:

(a) Shoulder cords. Not more than one shoulder
cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (see
Figure 5-2). Color to be determined by the wing commander, EXCEPT all
primary members of Cadet Advisory Councils will wear gold at the National
level, blue at region level, and red at wing level. (See CAPR 52-16, CAP
Cadet Program Management.) National Cadet Competition teams will wear
white shoulder cords. Honor Guardsmen will wear silver shoulder cords;

(b) scarves;

(c) white gloves;

(d) white and black belts;

(e) helmet liners. Color to be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white and will be worn with the decal depicted in Figure 6-20.

If it's not on that list, it cannot be authorized by the Wing Commander.   Further, the Region Commander must approve any such authorization.

[lordmonar]

Further, the Region Commander must approve any such authorization.

Not wanting to get this turned into a unfiorm thread....but ?

Not everything the wing CC authorises must be approved by the region CC

[RiverAux]

Regulation supplements are different. 

[arajca]

USAF denying it is not relevant; 39-1 denying it is.

USAF denying it ABSOLUTELY relevent. CAP asked once, got shot down. NEC passed a safety change permitting it - AF shot it down. CAP asked again, AF said no. The AF decides what can be worn with the bdu. CAP decides for the field uniform (aka bbdu).