Do we really need 72-hour "packs"?

[RiverAux]

How often are we really hiking away from our vehicles and spending the night on ground team missions?  Very rarely.  I know it hasn't happened in at least 12 years in my wing, and we're pretty active in SAR.  The few missions where overnight stays were done involved camping right close to the vehicle.  I think there may have been a few FTXs where a hike was made with 72 hour gear, but thats it. 

Now, I'm sure that somewhere in CAP someone has had to hike a distance from their vehicle and spend the night for a real world mission, but I'm betting that happens fewer than 10 times a year across all CAP (and thats probably a generous estimate). 

So, in recognition of reality, why not drop the national requirement that the 72-hour gear be carried in a pack?  Allow the wings that feel that such a pack would be necessary given the types of missions they see to put that in a 60-3 supplement, but let the rest of CAP save some money to buy gear more useful in real life. 

[lordmonar]

I've addressed this before, here and when I was at NESA.

No...I don't think we need a 72 hour "pack" 99% of the time.

We are normally going to be sortied for 12 hours at a time...with a load out in chase we have to stay over night.  So out 24 hour packs should be dictated by the gear you have to take to accomplish that mission.

Our 72 hour packs are what we leave at the mission base/hotel room/contoment area/bivwac site/van and should have everything you need to support 3 days of missions.

Yes there are times when we may actually hike in one day, do one of searching and hike out the last day type missions....but those are the exceptions not the rule and those units that do that type of mission should identify the need to their people.

[Flying Pig]

I dont do Ground Team.  As a pilot, I go home at night.  On an actual SAR, when was the last time a CAP GT actually stayed out overnight in the field?

[RiverAux]

Oops. sorry guys, disregard this thread.  Forgot I had brought it up before.   The discussion about good 72 hour packs made me think about it.  Probably not worth having another thread on though.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7907.0

[evolocomotive]

I agree, 72 hr packs are too much, as mentioned before, how long are you seriously going to be in the field?

[Airrace]

No...I don't think we need a 72 hour packs as they are to heavy.

[Major Carrales]

Hurricane relief and extended missions like HS and things like the Steve Fawcett search are examples of extended CAP deployment.  If you are local, then you go home.  However, those that travel need some sort of extended "pack" that is packed and ready to go at home.

Semper Vigilans is more than an cool Latin catch phrase.  I encourage all squadron members, be they pilots or ground team...senior or cadet, to have a uniform hanging ready to do and at least a 24-hour pack handy.  I carry mine in the car, it has items that have been very beneficial during breakdowns or rendering aid.

The idea of a "be prepared" pack is not "nerd stuff," it represents that we are ready.  Design your CAP gear for more than CAP use.  It will pay off...has several times for me.

Do we need a 72-hour pack at every mission?  Likely not, we need to be equipped based on the situation.  In our area, driving even to SARex (to San Antonio or Brownsville) sometimes means staying over night...be it at the Brownsville Airport at CAP STATION BROWNSVILLE or in a pitched tent outside of group V headquarters at Stinson Field in San Antonio.

Be ready or be ready to suffer a bit.

[lordmonar]

The question is "what is a 'PACK'".

For a GTM is there any requirement to have all you 72 hour gear in a backpack that you would be required to hike over hell's half acre during a mission.

Sure you need to bring all your gear to do missions for 3 days....but it can all be in plastic garbage bags...and you leave it in the van.

Those few places where you may go on long range patrol type mission should be identified well in advanced and that team should sortie as a special unit.

[RiverAux]

For a GTM is there any requirement to have all you 72 hour gear in a backpack that you would be required to hike over hell's half acre during a mission.

Yep, the GT task manual specifies backpack. 

[Hawk200]

The contents of the 72 hour pack are pretty useful, even if you're not going on a mission. It's a good built in packing list for just about anything. For a weekend SAREX, you can't go wrong with it.

There are far too many people that show up to SAREXs missing things. The last one I went to a guy showed up without a tent or toiletries. Thought he was gonna be put up in a hotel. It's kinda hard to tell someone that's not how it works when you just want to bust a gut laughing at them.

[lordmonar]

For a GTM is there any requirement to have all you 72 hour gear in a backpack that you would be required to hike over hell's half acre during a mission.

Yep, the GT task manual specifies backpack.

GT manual also says boonie hats and gortex jackets when we are not allowed to wear them.

[Hawk200]

GT manual also says boonie hats and gortex jackets when we are not allowed to wear them.

When did we lose the authorization for the GoreTex?

I know the boonie hat was denied by the Air Force, but I know of one wing that has a supplement authorizing them. Is it legal if the Air Force says "No", but the local wing allows it?

[lordmonar]

GT manual also says boonie hats and gortex jackets when we are not allowed to wear them.

When did we lose the authorization for the GoreTex?

I know the boonie hat was denied by the Air Force, but I know of one wing that has a supplement authorizing them. Is it legal if the Air Force says "No", but the local wing allows it?

The GT manual said to wear gortex before the USAF authorised us to wear it.  My point is when I brought this point up years ago I was lambasted that the GT manual is NOT regulatory.

[Hawk200]

The GT manual said to wear gortex before the USAF authorised us to wear it.  My point is when I brought this point up years ago I was lambasted that the GT manual is NOT regulatory.

I see your point. That points to the continuing issues of pubs contradicting each other.

[davedove]

The contents of the 72 hour pack are pretty useful, even if you're not going on a mission. It's a good built in packing list for just about anything. For a weekend SAREX, you can't go wrong with it.

Even if it's never used on a SAREX, the 72-hour pack is also a good "disaster preparedness" pack.  It contains nerely all the recommended items for a three day disaster kit.  So keeping one ready fills two purposes.

[MAWG cadet]

Even if it's never used on a SAREX, the 72-hour pack is also a good "disaster preparedness" pack.  It contains nerely all the recommended items for a three day disaster kit.  So keeping one ready fills two purposes.

Very true.
Also, if there is any chance at all that you will ever need 72 hour gear, its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. My squadron ran a training bivouac that put us with only our 24 hour gear in the field for 24 hours (1200 to 1200 the next day) and it was pretty miserable. I'd much rather carry the weight of my pack knowing I have everything I'll ever need than to go out on a limb and bring only the essentials for survival.

[Rodriguez]

This is a valid argument. However, the 72-hour packs uses go beyond what the regs say. Essentialy the 72 hour pack is nothing more than extended provisions, more food, more water ect. It dosnt usualy carry anything in the way of additional equipment, at least It dosnt for me. All the equipment and tools I need are contained in my 24 hour gear, minus my sleeping gear and/or shelter equipment.

However, I have found that even durring 24-hour missions, many people are in need of provisions. A fellow team member may need water or some snacks. In addition, in the unlikely event that the mission becomes a life and death situation, the extra provisions may be needed to support an extended mission or to aid in the care of the injured or a mal nurished person for example.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Snip

And of course we have a mission like that everyday in CAP.

[Hawk200]

Snip

And of course we have a mission like that everyday in CAP.

Doesn't matter if it's daily or not. A mission is a mission, and they aren't always local. A 72 hour pack will cover it for those times when you won't be going home.

It's a pretty shoddy excuse to tell the mission base that "I can't stay because I don't have everything I need." Best to be straight up and say, "I'm not going to stay for longer than a day." It's not like you can be ordered to. One true aspect of our volunteer organization is that not everyone can stay for longer.

It is wrong to expect others to carry someone that didn't prepare properly. If you choose to stay at a mission base, you need to be prepared.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm talking about dragging along 72 hour gear on a local, small mission.

And I do want to see how many of these life or death situations have happened with CAP involvement in, say the last decade? Four? Maybe Six?

[lordmonar]

I'm not saying we should not bring the gear.....I just don't see a need to stick all of it into a large backpack.

I have a large A-2 bag with my 72 hour hear.  All my 24 hour gear fits into my LBV.  I carry a large Camble Back back pack that I can load out with extra gear based on the weather/enviornment when I actually go out into the field.

[Spike]

^ I do the similar. 

With the Squadron Ground team, I sack all the gear and stow it in the back of the van.  Carrying around all that stuff is ill in my book.  Having it available if need be is what I provide. 

[jimmydeanno]

Here are my thoughts:

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

I carry nearly everything that is on the list in my 24 hour pack.  Some things just aren't needed where I am (like insect repellent in November).  So I modify my pack based on the season and current conditions.

With that said, in those 11 years of doing GT work, I have never had a need for even a 24 hour pack, let alone a 72 hour pack.  Even more so, not a single one of those missions involved trekking through the woods for any great distance, let alone staying for 3-days.

However, take the Steve Fossett or Katrina missions for a good example.  If you were "deployed" to that mission from somewhere other than where you were from, it would probably be a good idea to bring the 72 hour gear list.  But, an urban area like New Orleans, you aren't going to be carrying around 72 hour gear.  In the middle of the desert of Nevade, same thing, you aren't going to be sent out for days without a return to base.

While I think that the 3-day in the field sounds cool, I don't think it is something that is truly practical for our organization.  We have air resources available that help us reduce search areas.  There aren't too many places left in the country that you could be alone for three days without some sort of interaction with civilization, other organizations are better equipped to handle many of these extended missions.

So, for the examples about, what I would do is carry my 24 hour gear and leave the other 48 hours worth of stuff back at the base in a duffle bag or storage container.  After each sortie, 4-R with the extra gear.

I also think that the 72 hour gear, if loaded onto your back poses a pretty good safety hazard to a lot of our members.  My physician recommends that I don't exceed 15% of my body weight for backpacks, etc.  So, for me that's 24 lbs.  My 24 hour pack weight around 12.  Putting 72 hour gear, I would assume, most of our members would be reaching the 40-50 pound range and some hooah cadets would be reaching the 60 pound range (50% of their weight).

The only times in CAP that I've had extended periods of time in the woods, or even slept overnight in an ES environment were during training.  Our last SAREX involved my ground team acting as victims for the aircraft to find.  We ended up sleeping on the top of a 4,100 ft. mountain.  Even that didn't require the use of sleeping bags or tents.  Grab the poncho, find a soft bit of grass, we were good.

So, long story short,  I do not think that CAP should use the model of having a 72 hour pack and a 24 hour pack.  I think the 72 hour gear should be for replenishment of the 24 hour gear.

[Rodriguez]

I think the best thing we can do is be smart about this. What I mean is take things into context. The problem I find many times, is members are taught how to pack their gear in a very "by the book" manner. Now, dont get me confused, Im not saying to disrgard regs or anything of the sort. But, many times the training members get dosnt show members how to adapt. This is especialy true of cadet ground team members. They are taught "this is what you MUST have in your gear and if not then its wrong". When I teach members, and ive been giving classes to cadets and senior members alike for nearly 3 years now, I teach them that yes the regs provide a solid basis for what you need, however many times its good to take a personal view of your gear and see what you need and dont need to perform at the best of your abilities.

This is important if we go on a 72-hour search for a missing aircraft in the Florida Everglades, or if were out at a regional airport looking for an ELT. I just think more emphasis should be put on teaching rather than simply quoting regs.

[heliodoc]

BITD (CAP circa 1970's)

There were loose requirements for LBE  and duffel bags with stuff longer than two days.

Come around 2000 and a GT manual finally shows up after years of trials and tribulations of CAP " gear."

It would be nice if the were some practicality in the whole scheme of things.  Even RM guys do always "adhere " to all the MUSTs.  CAP has a way of teaching the "what you must have" mantra.  I am sure this all stems from the PA Hawk and NESA programs.

Rodriguez and jimmydeanno sum it up beautifully.  Pack according to your comfort levels and make sure one has the basic compliments and load.

The CAP GT manual needs to be updated and reviewed by more than just CAP itself.  Yep the quoting of regs is far too obvious in  in CAP.  The GT manual is simply a guideline and CAPers need to realize that.

[Nick]

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

This may seem like a silly question, but through all my years in the program I've never really seen a nice solution ... what do y'all use to document missions for personal record?    The CAPF 114 is great for an ES officer, but I'm talking about something for individuals to keep for themselves -- more or less like a pilot's logbook, but ... well, different.  Thoughts?

[heliodoc]

CPT McLArty,

If you want, you can support Vanguard and spend about 9 dinero, there's a logbook like the smaller pilot's logbook.

I thought CAP used to have a construction paper folder to document mission numbers ans position held

Best I can do for ya now.

[heliodoc]

Sorry guys

Two posts ago....  I meant to say....  RM guys do not always adhere to the MUSTS.  The have been doing and redoing their back according to mission and their levels of comfort.

Typing has not been easy for me

[jimmydeanno]

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

This may seem like a silly question, but through all my years in the program I've never really seen a nice solution ... what do y'all use to document missions for personal record?    The CAPF 114 is great for an ES officer, but I'm talking about something for individuals to keep for themselves -- more or less like a pilot's logbook, but ... well, different.  Thoughts?

I have one of those little $0.15 1/4 page spiral bound notebooks.  I just put the date, mission number, who I was with, target and whether it was a find or not.  Sometimes I'll put little notes in there about weird things we came across.

Nothing fancy. 

[Nick]

CPT McLArty,

If you want, you can support Vanguard and spend about 9 dinero, there's a logbook like the smaller pilot's logbook.

I thought CAP used to have a construction paper folder to document mission numbers ans position held

Best I can do for ya now.

Yeah, I forgot they had those ... but I refuse to fund Vanguard unless absolutely necessary.

[SarDragon]

BACKGROUND:
1)I am currently a GTL, GTM-1, and have been in CAP for almost 13 years.  11 of which I have had some sort of GT rating.

2) I've been on nearly 35 missions to look for ELTs/EPIRBs, etc and have around 27 finds (non-distress).

Of all those missions, the longest one was around 14 hours, and 8 of those were driving back and forth to the area of interest.

This may seem like a silly question, but through all my years in the program I've never really seen a nice solution ... what do y'all use to document missions for personal record?    The CAPF 114 is great for an ES officer, but I'm talking about something for individuals to keep for themselves -- more or less like a pilot's logbook, but ... well, different.  Thoughts?

I use a CAPF 114, and keep copies of all the closing traffic for missions I've participated in. The logbook from Vanguard works well for more detailed tracking.

[starbase OK cadet]

come on gys its just good to have. i know you barly use it but if you need it one day and you dont have it or the mony to get it your out of luck

[davidsinn]

come on gys its just good to have. i know you barly use it but if you need it one day and you dont have it or the mony to get it your out of luck

I don't think anyone is saying the gear is useless. Only the requirement to be able to carry it. I'm considering repacking mine into a duffel or large tub for easier handling in vehicles,

[JayT]

Come on guys, it's just good to have. I know you'll barely use it but if you need it one day and you don't have it, or the money to get it you're out of luck.

What sort of situation would you be in that requires emergency purchasing of gear?

[jimmydeanno]

"Hey cadet, we have a mission we need your help with!"

"Alright!  Just let me stop at walmart first, I need to get some gear!"

That doesn't happen to you?  >)

[JoeTomasone]

I know the boonie hat was denied by the Air Force, but I know of one wing that has a supplement authorizing them. Is it legal if the Air Force says "No", but the local wing allows it?

USAF denying it is not relevant; 39-1 denying it is.

39-1 has a list of items that the Wing Commander may authorize:

The wing/region commander has authority to approve the following items for
wear within his/her wing:

(a) Shoulder cords. Not more than one shoulder
cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (see
Figure 5-2). Color to be determined by the wing commander, EXCEPT all
primary members of Cadet Advisory Councils will wear gold at the National
level, blue at region level, and red at wing level. (See CAPR 52-16, CAP
Cadet Program Management.) National Cadet Competition teams will wear
white shoulder cords. Honor Guardsmen will wear silver shoulder cords;

(b) scarves;

(c) white gloves;

(d) white and black belts;

(e) helmet liners. Color to be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white and will be worn with the decal depicted in Figure 6-20.

If it's not on that list, it cannot be authorized by the Wing Commander.   Further, the Region Commander must approve any such authorization.

[lordmonar]

Further, the Region Commander must approve any such authorization.

Not wanting to get this turned into a unfiorm thread....but ?

Not everything the wing CC authorises must be approved by the region CC

[RiverAux]

Regulation supplements are different. 

[arajca]

USAF denying it is not relevant; 39-1 denying it is.

USAF denying it ABSOLUTELY relevent. CAP asked once, got shot down. NEC passed a safety change permitting it - AF shot it down. CAP asked again, AF said no. The AF decides what can be worn with the bdu. CAP decides for the field uniform (aka bbdu).