MOLLE GEAR COLOR - which side is true?

[maverik]

Alright I am probably bringing up an old thread but I wanted to know if we are in fact going to change to the ABU or some other camoflauge within 2-3 years since Iam getting ready to sink some serious cash into a Eagle Maritime CIRAS and need to know what color to get.

[JayT]

Alright I am probably bringing up an old thread but I wanted to know if we are in fact going to change to the ABU or some other camoflauge within 2-3 years since Iam getting ready to sink some serious cash into a Eagle Maritime CIRAS and need to know what color to get.

Not for years, and plenty of guys wear old style gear with new style uniforms. There's no reason to invest in ABU/ACU pattern except to look high speed

[IceNine]

A lot of folks have been buying the foliage green.  It will match the ABU's and doesn't look bad with the BDU's.

It is what I would buy with my hard earned.

But there is also black, which will go with anything... YMMV

[es_g0d]

If you want the latest in SAR gear fashion, you won't worry about fashion.  Find out what works, lasts, and fits your budget.  Utility is its own beauty. 

[NIN]

Alright I am probably bringing up an old thread but I wanted to know if we are in fact going to change to the ABU or some other camoflauge within 2-3 years since Iam getting ready to sink some serious cash into a Eagle Maritime CIRAS and need to know what color to get.

And you need an armor carrier.. why?

[Hawk200]

Alright I am probably bringing up an old thread but I wanted to know if we are in fact going to change to the ABU or some other camoflauge within 2-3 years since Iam getting ready to sink some serious cash into a Eagle Maritime CIRAS and need to know what color to get.

And you need an armor carrier.. why?

I'd have to second that question. CAP members have no use for body armor carriers. Even an empty carrier presents an image that we don't need. SAR is not somthing that normally requires it. (I could see some places, but not many.)

For reference, this article is pretty accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIRAS

If you're trying to conserve cash, I'd suggest a Fighting Load Carrier. They can be had for $40 or less. Yes, it has the term "fighting" in it, but it's a basic MOLLE type carrier. They're comfortable, and as long as you're not putting holsters and ammo on it, no one is really going to think of the assault applications.

[es_g0d]

In one breath you say a body armor carrier is inappropriate, and in the next a combat load carrier is suggested.

I'd recommend a nice pack, preferably of a high visibility color.

That said, of course I've used military gear during ground operations.  I began carrying more and more, then less and less.  Now a well-equipped red camelbak works wonderfully, and serves triple-purposes.

Once again, UTILITY should choose your gear, NOT whether or not it "goes" with your fatigues, BDUs, ACUs, ABUs, or pink TUTUs.

[Hawk200]

In one breath you say a body armor carrier is inappropriate, and in the next a combat load carrier is suggested.

Do you even know what I'm discussing? If not, here's a couple links to FLC's:

Protech Fighting Load Carrier (Got one of these, available in black, green, tan, and ACUPat)

Standard Issue FLC

There are many other sources as well. No reason not to match patterns, but single colors might lessen the martial appearance. Just because it uses the term "combat" or "fighting" doesn't mean it's gonna make the wearer look like some combat ready soldier.

It's far different than wearing a body armor carrier that a CAP member has no need for, and would be a ridiculous and unnecessary expenditure. Plus, the FLC could probably be up to a tenth of the price, and a fifth the weight.

[maverik]

alright well I'll put a cap to the off topiness (not saying it's bad it's good info but I don't want this locked  ) I am getting an Eagle CIRAS MARITIME because after two years of airsoft I like the weight and feel of the tightness of Plate Carriers simple as that.

[Hawk200]

alright well I'll put a cap to the off topiness (not saying it's bad it's good info but I don't want this locked  ) I am getting an Eagle CIRAS MARITIME because after two years of airsoft I like the weight and feel of the tightness of Plate Carriers simple as that.

I can guarantee that a real CIRAS is going to be a lot heavier than an Airsoft replica. And it's going to be hotter. On average, they're gonna start in the $400 range. If you're just looking to get rid of your money, get a simple MOLLE carrier for $40 or less, spend $100 on adding pouches, then donate the rest to your squadron.

We do search, which is gonna be on the ground, walking. Body armor is for hostile environments, combat patrols and doorkicking. You just don't need a CIRAS, and many people are gonna think that you're wearing it just "to look cool". Sorry to be blunt, but you're gonna look foolish, and most likely not going to be taken seriously in any field work.

But on the topic of colors, just about any MOLLE carriers are in tan/khaki, desert camo, woodland camo, green (which are usually sage, "ranger" or foliage), black, ACU pattern, or even Multicam. The new Air Force Defensor Fortis system is in ACU camo pattern, and looks OK with the ABU. However, green(such as the foliage) and khaki look acceptable. But if you're stuck on getting a body armor carrier, it's your money.

[Eclipse]

IMHO, your best bet for colors is either black or green, in that order, assuming a set of combat gear is what you think you need.  Either goes with just about anything you wear under it, no matter what direction CAP uniforms take.

If you buy ACU, it will look mis-matched with the ABU, so you lose on whatever cool factor you might be shooting for, and regardless we won't see ABU's for several years, assuming the pattern stays the same by then, anyway.

We're not trying to blend in, we're trying to be seen, so contrasting colors is better, starting with vests and gear in bright colors, not camo patterns.

I still say the best bet for our ops, on or off-road are the SARMed-style vests.  I have a full Black Hawk TAC vest set, including leg bag, and I rarely wear it, (I have it only because I got the whole set, with complete 24 hour gear for $50), and when I do wear the ridiculous thing, I find myself pining for my original, Desert-Storm era E-LBV, which was the best-suited tac-style gear for our ops.

At the end of the day, for our ops and needs, a sturdy hiking bag is all you really need.  Heck, with some creativity most of what we need can be fit in (bulging) uniform pockets.

Body armor?   Come on.

[Hawk200]

IMHO, your best bet for colors is either black or green, in that order, assuming a set of combat gear is what you think you need.  Either goes with just about anything you wear under it, no matter what direction CAP uniforms take.

Green is probably a better bet, doesn't look "SWAT" like black. Even tan doesn't really look bad with ACU or ABU. I've seen a number of soldiers in ACU, and airman in ABU, wearing tan and it looks OK. It's contrasting, but looks acceptable.

If you buy ACU, it will look mis-matched with the ABU, so you lose on whatever cool factor you might be shooting for, ...

You've really got to look to tell the difference. With a vest in ACUPat worn with ABU's it's barely noticeable that it's a different pattern. Now a Goretex in ACUpat worn with an ABU would probably be more easily noteable.

Body armor?   Come on.

I've got to second that one. Justifying body armor with "I like the weight and feel of the tightness" seems pretty transparent. There are other, far cheaper, less combat looking plate carriers that probably have the same "weight and feel".

[NIN]

Guys

My comment earlier was to illustrate that very often we obtain gear more for its "cool factor" than its actual capability.  I have been, and will continue to be, a victim of this.   The "Oh, man, that looks cool as heck!" in the catalog translates to "Gawd, this thing is jabbin' me in the ribs and I can't reach a darn thing on my back without getting totally unlimbered.." and your $200 "Neato!" thing winds up in the closet or on Ebay.

Been there, done that, got the receipts and the storage unit full of funny looking stuff...
(Speaking of, I have these sleeping bags.. oh, forget it, I'll just bring them to my squadron. I got a sleep system this year and I don't need 3 of the old-school mountain bags anymore..)

As for "fighting load carriers," well, remember that the LCE that folks are using right now was originally designed to carry ammo, so before we get all wrapped around the axle about designations, lets think about functions. 

In my other cadet program role, I have an opportunity to be in field situations with Army folks. At Camp Atterbury in '07, I got some really funny looks from the folks who were training there with my decidedly old-school ALICE gear.  (this from folks who were doing the same activity we were, a multi-mile ruck march, with K-pots, IBA, load carriers and weapons.) We had K-pots and weapons, but our TA-50 load out was awfully weird looking to them.  It got me to thinking about what we needed to do so we don't "stick out" so badly.

So in the last year I've picked up a load-carrier that doesn't stick out so much, but its a really simple one with MOLLE capabilities.

I had considered airsoft CIRAS or IBA, but decided that

a) we absolutely don't have a need for body armor unless we're at a range of some sort, and airsoft IBA/CIRAS is useless in those places if its not got real armor in it anyway;

b) if I'm buying CIRAS or IBA to "look cool," thats not a good reason.  And all airsoft CIRAS or IBA is doing at that point is attempting to "look cool," as I would not be using any "armor functionality" at all, but merely using its load carrying functions. And those load carrying functions can be more effectively replicated by other arrangements (Ranger Racks, etc).

c) why blow $200+ on a replica CIRAS when a $35 Ranger Rack will do?

d) any sort of vest-type arrangements are HOT.  Very hot.   I like the idea of having my stuff hung on the MOLLE carrier, but not having to wear a full-on vest thats not doing anything else.  Hanging pouches off my back is stupid anyhow. 

(I once wanted one of those radio pouches that sort of attaches over your shoulder, so I could have a choke mic and it would ride back there out of the way.  Its cool factor was high!  After the 2nd or 3rd time I had to take my LBE off to change frequencies, turn the volume up, whatever, I threw a BS flag and started looking for a chest rig for my radios.  The function did not match the cool factor at all..)

So when I say "What do you need CIRAS for?" its sorta my gentle reminder that there are probably plenty of options out there for load carrying capabilities that do not need "faux armor" and are, in fact, better choices for functionality than "faux armor".......

I could be wrong. Kinda doubt it.

[Hawk200]

c) why blow $200+ on a replica CIRAS when a $35 Ranger Rack will do?

I've never worn a RACK, but I've seen more than a few of them. Now that I think about it, they'd probably be almost ideal.

And, as far as the original topic goes, they can be found in complimentary colors. Color isn't really a matter of trying to look "cool", just avoiding something that clashes and would look stupid.

[maverik]

honestly guys I asked a simple question and I don't need to get jumped with comments like "you're just trying to look cool." don't assume that because we all know what assuming does.  That being said I like PCs because of their feel and their usefullness now you guys say I don't need "body armor" PCs are not body armor they are plate carriers body armor are plates to go in the vests and you don't need plates for our work.  Also I like to stay current with gear because the militar's mission is turning more and more to an urban enviorment, now this includes getting in and out of vehicles which is in our work.  And why is saying I want a late carrier any different then saying I want  a  Fighting Load Carrier? And yes I have tried a RACK before and found that I donb't like how they are set up.Thank you all who gave the information I requested.

[Eclipse]

This is the wrong place to expect direct answers without the opinion filter on.   



What we who have some experience are trying to tell you is that its silly to blow $400+ on something which isn't even going to serve the purpose for which is was designed, when for a 10th of that you can get gear which actually suits the purpose for which you intend it.

For $400 you could outfit the whole team with SARmeds or ELBV's, including gear, and probably still have money left over for pizza (especially when I start thinking about all the pockets you're likely going to add).


^Stolen from a Stonewall post on CS^

[Hawk200]

honestly guys I asked a simple question and I don't need to get jumped with comments like "you're just trying to look cool." don't assume that because we all know what assuming does.

As the old line goes "methinks you doth protest too much". Do you really think that the folks here haven't seen this type of behaviour before? Majority of us have found that when cadets go buy high speed military gear, it's to look cool. You may be completely different, but you're not going to look like it.

That being said I like PCs because of their feel and their usefullness now you guys say I don't need "body armor" PCs are not body armor they are plate carriers body armor are plates to go in the vests and you don't need plates for our work. 

You're obviously not really familiar with combat gear. A large amount of the seniors here are current/prior military; and have been, are in, or going to be in a combat theater.

A CIRAS is a combination body army carrier (which uses a combination of soft panels and hard plates), and a load carrier. The newest body armor system that the military is using is very similar, and even looks much like a CIRAS.

Also I like to stay current with gear because the militar's mission is turning more and more to an urban enviorment, now this includes getting in and out of vehicles which is in our work. 

Staying "current" on gear doesn't really ring true. We have many seniors and cadets here that are using Vietnam era design ALICE gear, and are quite happy with it.

Second, getting out of vehicles with even just a base carrier is a royal pain in the 4th POC. I have direct experience with that. Many people here have direct experience with that. That's not even remotely viable as a justification.

And why is saying I want a late carrier any different then saying I want  a  Fighting Load Carrier?

A fighting load carrier is simply a load carrier. The military likes to add terms like "fighting", "assault", and "battle" to it's equipment. It's fundamentally different from a CIRAS. Don't equate things you aren't familiar with.

If you'd come in asking about an FLC, I doubt anyone would have said anything other than "Here's a few links to some good ones".

And yes I have tried a RACK before and found that I donb't like how they are set up.

You're learning what works for you. That's good. But not everything that works for you is going to be appropriate. The RACK would have been acceptable, it's low profile, and from what I've seen it doesn't present a problem getting out of vehicles as much as armor carriers. But if it doesn't work for you, there are other options.

Thank you all who gave the information I requested.

We all know what that means. "Thanks for your input, but I'm going to do it my own way." You were advised otherwise, but it is your choice to go buying whatever you wish. I'll keep an eye on eBay, I know a few people that wouldn't mind a CIRAS.

Food for thought: You may get to a mission site, and the IC may consider your gear inappropriate for the mission at hand due to it's appearance. The IC can't do much about that. He/she can keep you from going on sorties, or even send you home if he/she feels that there might be PR issues. And there won't be anything you can do about that. You won't stay very current if you're not doing those missions.

[maverik]

"You're learning what works for you. That's good. But not everything that works for you is going to be appropriate. The RACK would have been acceptable, it's low profile, and from what I've seen it doesn't present a problem getting out of vehicles as much as armor carriers. But if it doesn't work for you, there are other options."

Thank you. Oh BTW Bob on the FOB= WIN. BTW  What's a SARMED vest?

[Eclipse]

Thank you. Oh BTW Bob on the FOB= WIN. BTW  What's a SARMED vest?

The orange one in these threads...

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1071.msg13037#msg13037

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4589.msg90545#msg90545

Also, if you search "vests" you'll find about 10 different threads that have a bunch of better options than molle or a plate carrier - ISUHAWKEYE and a few others posted up several different high-vis, flexible solutions.

[maverik]

good for my comms duty but I'm not seeing field applications. (btw way elicpse I like to have extra money for pizza  )

[JayT]

good for my comms duty but I'm not seeing field applications. (btw way elicpse I like to have extra money for pizza  )

They're comfortable, practical, and high viz........

[maverik]

yes but how in the heck do you hold gear on it?

[Eclipse]

good for my comms duty but I'm not seeing field applications. (btw way eclipse I like to have extra money for pizza  )

I'd be very curious to know what you are doing 1 state right "in the field" that isn't happening
where I am, because that vest, combined with a hydropack underneath or a couple of bottles of water in your BDU pockets can hack any duty we're getting in GLR.

The reality is that we don't do the kind of "go out for three days and find something" missions in GLR, or even very much in CAP, that require mil-spec ballistic material equipment.

I'm as much of a geardo as the guy in the pic I posted, but at least I'm honest that I use CAP as an excuse to buy stuff I have no need for.

Katrina was about as close to Armageddon as I ever want to get, and we all went down there expecting to have to dig fox holes and fight civilians for rations - then we pitched our tents, did a lot of door knocking, and shelter work, and ate with the Army (very well I might add).

By week's end most of us moved to leaving our gear in the truck to help with the 100° heat - we had it if we needed it, but the duty didn't call for it to be on us - the one guy w/ the Sarmed could leave it on and have all his toys handy because it was actually comfortable and light to wear.

In KY, other than cold weather gear, all the Army carried were weapons and water, because their base had hots and cots.  No one from them or us was going to be left to fend alone.

So, cool is cool, no problem, but after that, what do you think you're preparing for?

[Eclipse]

yes but how in the heck do you hold gear on it?

Look close - there's 5 pockets on the front, some with dividers.  Same amount and storage space as the typical Blackhawk tac vest.



There's also a large double zippered pocket on the back large enough for an MRE, or I usually use it for a clipboard and other docs.

[maverik]

hey that's pretty cool. And what I mean by being in the field is is really SAREX's I mean at SAREXs we sleep in the "field in our tents, (but most missions we either crash in the van or the bivvy the redcross set up )  what I meant by field applications is how do you carry flagging tape etc. in your gear? (althought that vest is cool i'll admit.)

[JayT]

hey that's pretty cool. And what I mean by being in the field is is really SAREX's I mean at SAREXs we sleep in the "field in our tents, (but most missions we either crash in the van or the bivvy the redcross set up )  what I meant by field applications is how do you carry flagging tape etc. in your gear? (althought that vest is cool i'll admit.)

You have six pockets on the vest, four pockets on your shirt, and six pockets on your pants.

[IceNine]

hey that's pretty cool. And what I mean by being in the field is is really SAREX's I mean at SAREXs we sleep in the "field in our tents, (but most missions we either crash in the van or the bivvy the redcross set up )  what I meant by field applications is how do you carry flagging tape etc. in your gear? (althought that vest is cool i'll admit.)

Don't carry flagging tape, carry something that is really 2 things.  Like IO duct tape.  and without starting a completely different discussion all together.

Experience will show you what you really need to CARRY vs Have Available.  You can put everything you need to Carry on your body in that vest, or in a back pack style hydrator, or whatever else you choose to use.

At the end of the day the most reasonable solution is a compromise of relevance to the mission at hand, and what you want in your vest.

If you want the CIRAS then buy it, I will gladly tell you "I told you so" and then suggest something different.

Take our experiences for the value you believe they present.  For this guy's 400 dollars though I would spend 45 on a nice rack, 100 on various pockets, And then buy upgraded items to go in the vest.  MIOX, zippo hand warmers, etc.

Remember, a huge house with no furniture is much less comfortable than a tiny house with a REALLY nice recliner.  YMMV

[es_g0d]

I think the red vest is a great construction.  See end.

The bottom line here is that if your discussing a color for gear and those colors are "black, green, or tan" or some variant thereof (ie ACU), YOU ARE WRONG.

If you want to be serious about SAR operations, take a look at what the rest of the country uses as a standard.  The NASAR Fundamentals of Search and Rescue book has an excellent description of what's good and bad in SAR gear.

Quote from page 90: "The preference for SAR personnel is always to be more visible, and so camouflage and darker colors should be at best avoided, or at least used only when brighter colors are not available."

We've traditionally used military gear in CAP, ostensibly because we could get it from DRMO or other military channels.  If you're spending YOUR OWN money on gear, I'll emphasize that we're the CIVIL air patrol, and your gear should be the best -- and most visible -- available.  There's a good chance that if you're limiting yourself to military gear you're excluding what's best.  You might also be not getting the best gear for your dollar.

I posted a similar thought elsewhere, but I think its worthy of saying again.  We are a large enough organization where we could easily have gear made to our specifications -- color, style, etc.  Why don't we???

[NIN]

honestly guys I asked a simple question and I don't need to get jumped with comments like "you're just trying to look cool." don't assume that because we all know what assuming does.  That being said I like PCs because of their feel and their usefullness now you guys say I don't need "body armor" PCs are not body armor they are plate carriers body armor are plates to go in the vests and you don't need plates for our work.  Also I like to stay current with gear because the militar's mission is turning more and more to an urban enviorment, now this includes getting in and out of vehicles which is in our work.  And why is saying I want a late carrier any different then saying I want  a  Fighting Load Carrier? And yes I have tried a RACK before and found that I donb't like how they are set up.Thank you all who gave the information I requested.

*Yawn.* I think I just heard the sound of yon C/MSgt's earflaps slamming shut. Too bad, too.

Troop, let me tell you: I have more time scarfing down MREs while wearing body armor and kevlar than you have in CAP.  I guess you're not interested in taking clear, concise hints from the folks out here who have "Been there, done that, spent the money, got the crap they don't use in the garage, and have gone back to the KISS method."  

Thats fine.  Sometimes you just have to go and make your own mistakes after being told 50-60 times by others "hey, you're about to make a mistake" before you smack yourself in the head and say "Oh, I shouldn't have done that.."  Like I said, I have a tendency to do the exact same thing. Just sayin...

Go get your CIRAS or your plate carrier (BTW, in case you weren't paying attention:  the word "plate" in the phrase "plate carrier" represents "ARMOR plate," not a "dinner plate.")  From your above comment, Sergeant, I'm not entirely sure you have a clue what a PC really is or what its used for, but it sure looks neato, so everybody who is telling you "yeah, don't bother, not appropriate for what you intend to use it for" is probably just some buffoon who spends all his time behind a desk at a mission base, eatin' up all the donuts and yakkin' on that there ray-diddi-o to the ground teams, right?  

You've never gotten into and out of a vehicle wearing John Wayne gear and carrying a rifle.  It stinks.  And now you're talking about wearing a gear carrier assembly that will put gear on your back?  Uh uh.  Tell ya what: Go put your ALICE pack on (empty) and go out and try to drive your car without taking it off.   You'll see what I mean.

When you wanna get rid of that CIRAS replica 'cuz its too hot, I'll give you $50 for it.  I need something else to put in my storage unit that I won't actually use

[Hawk200]

I think the red vest is a great construction.  See end.

The bottom line here is that if your discussing a color for gear and those colors are "black, green, or tan" or some variant thereof (ie ACU), YOU ARE WRONG.

Nothing wrong about it. I was discussing colors available for the gear I mentioned. Did you read the whole thing?

Second, there isn't a single National publication that states what color gear is to be. Until there is, there is no wrong in color choice. Might be many that are completely unsuitable, but not wrong.

If you want to be serious about SAR operations, take a look at what the rest of the country uses as a standard.  The NASAR Fundamentals of Search and Rescue book has an excellent description of what's good and bad in SAR gear.

Quote from page 90: "The preference for SAR personnel is always to be more visible, and so camouflage and darker colors should be at best avoided, or at least used only when brighter colors are not available."

The preference for NASAR personnel is not the preference of National Headquarters, CAP. Until CAP adopts the NASAR standards, they're irrelevant. Good guidelines, but nothing that you can hold a CAP member to. CAP requires an orange vest be worn in the field. If you're not following that, you're wrong.

We've traditionally used military gear in CAP, ostensibly because we could get it from DRMO or other military channels.  If you're spending YOUR OWN money on gear, I'll emphasize that we're the CIVIL air patrol, and your gear should be the best -- and most visible -- available.  There's a good chance that if you're limiting yourself to military gear you're excluding what's best.  You might also be not getting the best gear for your dollar.

I go with what I have, and for me that's military gear. For a lot of CAP folks that's common. And if I'm spending my own money on gear, I'll go with what I'm used to. Visibility doesn't matter, that orange vest is still required. And military gear tends to be pretty sturdy, that's why some folks still carry old ALICE gear. It works and it lasts.

We are a large enough organization where we could easily have gear made to our specifications -- color, style, etc.  Why don't we???

Are we really? Seems like there are far more SAR personnel out there than there are CAP members. Don't really know if making our own designs is useful. If there were orange versions out there of the equipment I'm familiar with, I'd probably use it. Someone mentioned on another thread MOLLE gear in orange. If CAP permitted it's use in lieu of an orange vest, I'd probably spend the money. Not gonna jump on it just because it's orange.

[TEAM SURGE]

yes but how in the heck do you hold gear on it?

Look close - there's 5 pockets on the front, some with dividers.  Same amount and storage space as the typical Blackhawk tac vest.



There's also a large double zippered pocket on the back large enough for an MRE, or I usually use it for a clipboard and other docs.

I spent a bit of money on a vest just like this except it had a bit of gren on it, they told me I could not use it in the field. Because green is for flight waivers. I was pretty frustrated.

[Eclipse]

I spent a bit of money on a vest just like this except it had a bit of gren on it, they told me I could not use it in the field. Because green is for flight waivers. I was pretty frustrated.

That's ridiculous, especially with a cadet, but with that said, in the places where a color is specified. the color is always orange.

[RedFox24]

Held off as long as I could on this one.....

CAP's mission is Search and Rescue, not Search and Destroy. 

The object is to see and be seen.

The last two missions I have been on, I saw two different senior members, from two different wings, with TAC vest, drop down gear bags from their belt to their thighs, and knee pads.............   They had more junk that they would ever use......let alone need.  And they looked stupid.  Was never sure if they were going to save the subject of the search or storm them and shoot them.  These same people were dead tired after their two hour walk in the woods.  Plus they had feet/ankle issues at the end of the day from carrying all that weight. 

I don't like a vest because I sweat a lot, esp in the summer.  But what Bob showed would be much preferred, IMO, to the MOLLE picture on this same thread.  I use a version of the Rhodesian chest pouch for radio, gps, maps etc that wont fit into a BDU pocket and then a blaze orange day pack to carry any "big stuff".  It works for me.  I can see and be seen.  BTW I use this theme at work also so it doubles as my CAP gear. 

I have not been in the military, and am not an expert on such when it comes to "rucksack march", but take it from a guy who spends half his job time walking in the fields and woods, carry only what you need, make sure it is comfortable, make sure you can see and be seen and leave the rest in the truck.

[Hawk200]

CAP's mission is Search and Rescue, not Search and Destroy. 

Actually, no, it's not. It's search. Period. We don't have the insurance coverage for rescue.

I have not been in the military, and am not an expert on such when it comes to "rucksack march", but take it from a guy who spends half his job time walking in the fields and woods, carry only what you need, make sure it is comfortable, make sure you can see and be seen and leave the rest in the truck.

Carry what you need is definitely smart. Even soldiers know this. Most soldiers will lighten their load whenever they get the chance.

[RedFox24]

My point was that "we" dont give the appearance of SAR but that of SAD by what type and how we wear our field equipment

Actually, not it's not. It's search. Period. We don't have the insurance coverage for rescue.

Point well taken.........

[heliodoc]

I have to agree with NIN

I served in an AVIM Aviation Company repairing UH-1's and UH 60's in the field and we had to wear the full battle rattle while driving or riding our HUMVEE's and in the day, deuce and a half....

Getting out those vehicles with all the old style John Wayne gear while grabbing for one's M16, duffles , toolboxes, etc was a PITA.  So I too suggest to all the folks in Combat Air Patrol to don up with all the old stuff and all the new MOLLE gear a do a drill to get out of that vehicle

Let's look at it realistically, we are not John Wayne at the crash site nor the UDF site....  so practice up and see how many times one gets hung up with all the gear on.  Utilize that space in those E350 vans that we had to take out the rear seat......  Why do you suppose all that room is for??? 

Let's just say that CAP'er van, God forbid, rolls over and everyone that can get out has all that CAP Air Assault gear on,  whadddyaa suppose is going to be the hindering focus on getting out

Maybe that's a project for the 1AF and all the Safety types at mission base to look into...... how many CAPer SM and cadets get into the vehicle with their Assault gear........ that might be a liitle thing those folks may want to pry into.....How many of you want that, eh??

Most of us in the RM have a little insight to this.  We had to wear our and follow orders due to the pay grade and assignment we had.  CAP and its members ought to use the common sense and space afforded to them in an E350 van.

Like es_god also says........ follow his sense and red fox is right SEARCH, folks  not the rescue or destroy we are so fondly looked upon in some of the GA community

Just like other thread on ruck marching........ it's memorable and long lasting especially if you go over 50 lbs consisitently and then there are those CAPers who think they geared up and rucked only to find out they are winded after 4 blocks 'cuz they are spent 2 minutes trying to get out of a vehicle trying to be Gunny Highway......

Gear up geardoooos and start flaming some MORE relevant RM experience to pass on.....

[es_g0d]

I am glad for the lively discussion.  Even if we disagree, it shows that we care.  (And yes, I am reading the whole thing!)

I wish to address a couple of issues, then I'm going to lob a grenade to see who jumps on it.

First, with my comment as to what is WRONG.  I don't mean prohibited, but I do mean incorrect.  Comba gear isn't prohibited, but that doesn't mean its RIGHT, either!  Furthermore, I'd fully agree that a MOLLE vest in blaze orange complies with the letter and intent of the "orange vest" requirement.  That said, low-visibility colored COMBAT gear does not enhance a credible image and reputation.

Refuting industry standards (ie NASAR) with a comment of, "CAP National HQ hasn't adopted them" means you aren't seeing the forest for the trees, and aren't leading us as an emergency response organization in the right direction.  CAP has clamped its hands over its ears for far to long when it comes to the SAR mission.  If we continue to do so, we're going to continue to be marginalized.  The time is now to put our input into ESF 9.  The NASAR standard is different, and often higher, than that for CAP ground teams.  As such, its an excellent form of continuation training.  Please don't poo-poo it only because its unfamiliar.

Now I'll toss the grenade.  If we're in the business of "Search" only, then why do we have ground teams at all?  Particularly true of aeronautical SAR -- the business for which we have the largest 'jurisdiction,' -- ground teams are not terribly efficient search resources.  This is ESPECIALLY true if we discount the teachings of "other than CAP" GSAR experts (which we tend to do).  If you're not prepared for the rescue, then you're not necessary.  I ask this because I firmly believe in the whole concept of SAR.

Rescue doesn't mean evacuation or extrication (necessarily), nor does it mean technical rescue.  It DOES mean that you have the responsibility for coordinating such efforts if they are necessary.

Who will jump?

[winterg]

Well said.

Way back when I was a kaydet (read 80's) we used NASAR for our training.  I remember spending weekends at the local Guard base attending their FUNSAR classes.

When I was packing for my move last month I actually found my FUNSAR manuals!  It was interesting to see the difference from current requirements.

[Hawk200]

First, with my comment as to what is WRONG.  I don't mean prohibited, but I do mean incorrect.  Comba gear isn't prohibited, but that doesn't mean its RIGHT, either!  Furthermore, I'd fully agree that a MOLLE vest in blaze orange complies with the letter and intent of the "orange vest" requirement.  That said, low-visibility colored COMBAT gear does not enhance a credible image and reputation.

Just because a military member wears something doesn't mean it's "combat gear". What exactly is inappropriate? I wear a Camelbak as a soldier, does that mean that it's unsuitable for me an on ground team? Do you think of a MOLLE pocket designed to carry cell phone or radio as "combat gear" and therefore unsuitable because a soldier carries it? Or is it a simple matter of anything that isn't designed to be "hi vis" inappropriate? That doesn't really sound like a practicality problem, it sounds like a prejudice.

Personally, I would like to see an orange or yellow shirt approved for ground ops. Yep, just a shirt. When you get to a mission site, you take off your BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc shirt, and put on the hi vis one. Quick, simple, no need to design a complete uniform (or have a need to change into another one). Top that off with a load bearing system in hi vis colors, and you're set. But that isn't currently an option. We wear a complete uniform with an orange vest. That's the rules.

Refuting industry standards (ie NASAR) with a comment of, "CAP National HQ hasn't adopted them" means you aren't seeing the forest for the trees, and aren't leading us as an emergency response organization in the right direction.  CAP has clamped its hands over its ears for far to long when it comes to the SAR mission.  If we continue to do so, we're going to continue to be marginalized.  The time is now to put our input into ESF 9.  The NASAR standard is different, and often higher, than that for CAP ground teams.  As such, its an excellent form of continuation training.  Please don't poo-poo it only because its unfamiliar.

You've missed the point. The NASAR Manual is a great resource. I don't contest that. But it is not our current guideline for our operations. You can't hold anyone in CAP to it. If you're trying or insisting or being judgemental, you're not doing anything to solve the problem.

On that note, what are you doing to solve the problem? Have you sent anything up the chain to try to improve our operations? Do you have the cred to do so, or are you simply satisfied standing on the outside and belittling the current way? Before you ask, I haven't done so. I'm not a SAR guru, or expert, or god; my knowledge of these operations aren't extensive on this matter, I'm not an appropriate candidate to do so.

Now I'll toss the grenade.  If we're in the business of "Search" only, then why do we have ground teams at all? 

Our ground teams supplement air recon, but they also stand on their own. In heavy wooded areas where you're looking for a lost child, an airplane may be unusable for the simple fact that they can't see through the tree cover. Ground teams are in the middle of those trees.

Second, when an aircraft spots a target, how do you know it's the right one? Can that aircrew at 1000 ft AGL read the tail number? As an example, Alaska wing had an active search that found another aircraft that had been unaccounted for for almost 15 years. Would it have been wise to say "We found it" and return to base? No, an aircrew remains on station until it's verified. This isn't a lone incident either, it has been repeated numerous times over the past decades.

Rescue doesn't mean evacuation or extrication (necessarily), nor does it mean technical rescue.  It DOES mean that you have the responsibility for coordinating such efforts if they are necessary.

An interesting point, and one I hadn't considered. Maybe we need to be teaching this mindset in our training as well. And coordination is rarely a bad thing.

[es_g0d]

Just because a military member wears something doesn't mean it's "combat gear". What exactly is inappropriate? I wear a Camelbak as a soldier, does that mean that it's unsuitable for me an on ground team? Do you think of a MOLLE pocket designed to carry cell phone or radio as "combat gear" and therefore unsuitable because a soldier carries it? Or is it a simple matter of anything that isn't designed to be "hi vis" inappropriate? That doesn't really sound like a practicality problem, it sounds like a prejudice.

I do have a prejudice against things that do not help our image and operability.  I'd agree with you that all of the items listed are permissible to use, but not the preference.  As a leader, I evaluate what is appropriate and what isn't.  Let's say that an individual was wearing a M9 pistol holster on his/her hip.  Even if empty (or filled with something innocuous such as a radio), I'd hope we'd both agree that the item is inappropriate--even if its not expressly forbidden by regulation!  I'm not attempting to set up the straw man, I'm simply pointing out that each of us would have limits.  For the record, I certainly wouldn't exclude someone from participating in SAR activity simply because they were using low-visibility colored gear.  Far from it!  If they're squared away, they're an asset I'm not going to turn down!  I'm simply stating the preference--AS A LEADER (ie senior member!) in CAP is to use appropriate gear, with a preference towards high visibility.  Hey, for the record, I still have my old ALICE gear and I use it for my 72 hour pack.  For shorter operations, I'll use a SRU-21/P survival vest to hold my goodies.  Yup, both low-vis pieces of equipment!  Why?  Because I bought them in my younger hooah days, and/or got them for cheap or free via CAP sources.  The root question was, "what color should I buy?" and that, hopefully, has been answered.

Personally, I would like to see an orange or yellow shirt approved for ground ops. Yep, just a shirt. When you get to a mission site, you take off your BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc shirt, and put on the hi vis one. Quick, simple, no need to design a complete uniform (or have a need to change into another one). Top that off with a load bearing system in hi vis colors, and you're set. But that isn't currently an option. We wear a complete uniform with an orange vest. That's the rules.

I couldn't agree with you more.  Our uniforms are not centered around our mission.

You've missed the point. The NASAR Manual is a great resource. I don't contest that. But it is not our current guideline for our operations. You can't hold anyone in CAP to it. If you're trying or insisting or being judgemental, you're not doing anything to solve the problem.

I'm not being judgmental, I'm simply referencing a reputable authority.  I CAN and DO hold people to a higher standard.  Just because our task guides say X, that doesn't mean that's the end of the story.  I'd like every GT member to know about X, Y, and Z.  The task guide is a minimum standard.

On that note, what are you doing to solve the problem? Have you sent anything up the chain to try to improve our operations? Do you have the cred to do so, or are you simply satisfied standing on the outside and belittling the current way? Before you ask, I haven't done so. I'm not a SAR guru, or expert, or god; my knowledge of these operations aren't extensive on this matter, I'm not an appropriate candidate to do so.

I've published a CAP Emergency Services website for the past 10+ years.  I've been an advocate for CAP missions in my role as an active duty Air Force Officer and pilot.  I've authored significant portions of the ES curriculum used by CAP.  I wrote the CAP Inflight Guide (great for GTMs, too!).  And I've taught at NESA since 2002.  You're right, though, its clearly not enough, so I'm working on that too.   

For the record, I'm not belittling ANY individual in ANY post I make here.  I wish to only point the clear path we as an organization need to take.  I value every volunteer and his/her contributions.  I wouldn't be involved if it weren't for the outstanding quality of people in CAP.

An interesting point, and one I hadn't considered. Maybe we need to be teaching this mindset in our training as well. And coordination is rarely a bad thing.

Ah, Air to Ground Coordination!  The fundamental skill we don't work at enough!  In CAP we've got a strong "air" tribe and a strong "ground" tribe -- and too seldom do the two meet!  The tasks put forth to a Ground Team are clearly daunting, and verification of the objective is an important one, but not the ALL important one.  As you clearly pointed out, there is no "rescue" from an airplane, so Ground Teams are clearly necessary--FOR the RESCUE! 

[Trouble]

alright well I'll put a cap to the off topiness (not saying it's bad it's good info but I don't want this locked  ) I am getting an Eagle CIRAS MARITIME because after two years of airsoft I like the weight and feel of the tightness of Plate Carriers simple as that.

Son, may I call you son?  

You nor anyone else in CAP has any use for a CIRAS Carrier while on a CAP mission or in CAP Training.  Save the CIRAS replica for Airsoft, get mission appropriate gear for SAR.

And if you think I am being a fuddy duddy, don't, I was a cadet once too, I use a set of LC-2 gear for years, worked great especially after replacing the slide keepers with zip ties or P-Cord.  But times change, and so we must adapt and overcome or go the way of the Flint lock.

Think of it this way, our missions (just like the military's) are taking place more and more often in suburban and urban environments, we need to have as much a Public Friendly presence as we can muster.   Remember the mission assignment drives the equipment used not the other way around.

I personally use a small RED Patrol Pack (Kigali 30 Lt w/hydration bladder) and a mini modular chest rig made by 5.11 tactical.  I prefer the mini chest rig because it allows me to tailor my pouches and carry a few additional items that I would not be able to carry in a standard Radio Chest Harness.  

Practical, Tactically efficient and Public friendly (looks no different than a civilian Radio Harness aside from a couple extra pockets), in other words I do not look as if I just swam ashore or dropped into a foreign land ready to break things and hurt people.