Why the Astro Saber is my choice for standard CAP radio

[Buzz]

Why the Astro Saber?

First, they are CHEAPER now than the EF Johnson radio.  Ebay prices are under $200 for Astro Sabers with P25 working, with charger, antenna and battery -- that's half the price of the EFJ, so for the same money you can have a spare.

Second, for CAP use you only need to have it programmed one time, so front-panel programming doesn't matter.  With 255 channels, one "codeplug" (the program in the radio's memory) will handle all of CAP needs nationwide, with plenty of room for other services, Ham, WX, etc.

Third, there is so much more available optional equipment.

Fourth, durability.  It's hard to hurt a Saber, much less kill one.


PURCHASING
Primary models of the Saber series are the I (basic), II (full-featured except no Touch-Tone keypad) and III (this is a II with the keypad for using autopatch systems).  There are additonal types such as the Saber, Systems Saber, and Astro Digital Saber.  When I talk about Sabers for CAP, I am ALWAYS talking about the Astro.  No other type is suitable.

The Astro Saber was made in several frequency ranges,  The one you are looking for will have a Model Number that starts with "H04J" or "H04K" -- this is the VHF unit that we use for CAP frequencies.  The "J" band (136 to 162MHz) is best for CAP, but the K band (146 to 178MHz) can be tuned to the CAP frequency set with no problems.

For CAP use, the Astro Saber II is sufficient.  This is an advantage, as the III is more desired by ham radio operators, leaving the II at a lower price range.

Not all Astro Sabers are set up for P25, so make sure before you bid or buy that the one you are looking at DOES have P25 working.

You also need an antenna and a battery.  All of the standard Sabers use the same batteries.  However Astro Sabers use a different type of antenna which is NOT interchangable with the earlier Sabers.  Astro Saber antennas have a connection that looks like an old TV "F" connector, with a small hole in the center and insulation between that and the threads.  You also MUST make sure that the Astro itself has the small center pin, which will be broken off if someone jams an earlier antenna onto the radio.

When the radio is powered on, the LCD display will say "Self Test" for a moment, then drop right into operating mode, unless there is no "codeplug" (a fancy word for "program") in memory.

Try to get the seller to program the radio for CAP use -- you will need to supply the frequencies and other settings -- and verify operation.  You may have to pay for programming.  Most Motorola authorized shops will have the software (which is different for each type of Motorola radio), and many hams who buy Astro Sabers will also have the RIB programmer and software.

The Astro Saber is an "obsolete" model, so they have come way down on price.  If you call around to Motorola shops, you may find a dealer who has some of them sitting in a box somewhere, and who would be willing to donate them to your squadron or even individual members, for the cost of programming or for the tax break.

Basic Checklist:
Astro Saber II or III (has display)
VHF (H04J or H04K)
P25
Codeplug programmed into radio
Antenna pin good
Antenna correct for Astro
Battery good
Charger


ACCESSORIES:
In addition to the Basic Checklist (which is the minimum that you will need), you may want to add accessories.

The Saber series was Motorola's premier portable for over a decade.  This means that there are numerous add-ons, both from Ma Batwings and from aftermarket sources.  Nearly everything that fits the standard Saber series will fit the Astro Saber (exceptions being anything which connects to the antenna mount).

The most important of these is BATTERIES.  They are still being made, and some vendors have updated technology, such as Lithium-Ion.

Next, you need a way to carry it.  This can be a belt clip (these are easily installed and removed) or pouch (available from various sources).

A speaker-microphone is a good thing to have for GT work.  You might also get a headset, "surveillance kit" or throat mic.  These may be partially supported by the antenna mount -- if so, they can be doctored by replacing the mounting screw or by simply eliminating the support.

If you will use this as your primary CAP radio, you might want an "Astro Vehicular Adapter," which is a unit that you mount in your car.  The Astro Saber drops into this and becomes a mobile rig, hooked up to a car-mounted antenna, speaker and hand mic.  The SVA -- a similar unit for the standard Saber -- WILL NOT WORK.

"Gang" drop-in chargers allow several batteries to be charged (or kept charged) at one time.  This could be useful to have at your ground-team base.


PROGRAMMING KIT:
The Astro Saber can be programmed with the RIB, which was Motorola's standard programming interface for decades.  These can be found in the aftermarket and on Ebay.  You will also need the Astro Saber / XT3000 software, for which the only legitimate source is Motorola (yes, they will sell you the software, but it's not cheap).  Sometimes this will show up on Ebay, or you may even find a complete package of radio, accessories and "everything you need to program it."  The software does all Astro Saber models, no matter which frequency range.

The ONLY two reasons that you would want this would be A), if you are a ham radio operator, with the need to add or delete frequencies, PL tones, etc, or B), if you are supporting multible Astro Sabers (for the squadron, group, etc) and need to be able program newly-bought radios when they show up.  If you don't fall into either of these categories, just have someone program your radio for you the one time and never worry about it again.


SUPPORT:
The Astro Saber is out of production, and Motorola has discontinued support.  However, having used Sabers and Astro Sabers for a couple of decades, I don't see this as a major consideration. 

On the off chance that you actually break one, parts are readily available on the used market, and the modular design makes it simple to swap out bad parts.  Or, for that matter, as the price continues to drop, it may become cheaper just to buy another radio and relegate the bad one to the parts locker.

There is also a strong user forum at Batwing Laboratories (www.batlabs.com), and almost anything you could ever wish to know, someone there can tell you.


CONCLUSION:
I am a firm believer in standardization of equipment.  I feel that CAP members who buy their own radios should standardize on the Astro Saber.  There is no better choice from any standpoint OTHER THAN manufacturer support (EFJ has it, Ma Batwings doesn't).

[HGjunkie]

I was looking at one of those fancy Throat Mics for my MT2000, but figured it would make me look like a tool so I just went for the regular speaker mic add-on.

[wuzafuzz]

I like the Astro Saber but I disagree CAP member owned radios should standardize on the Saber.  In fact I'm pretty fond of my XTS5000.  I know a variety of folks with other compliant radios, Motorola's, Icoms, Kenweeds, etc.  Let folks use what works for them.

Now I do think it would be great if a given wing invested in equipment to support one type of member owned radio.  Find a reasonably priced radio and offer free programming to members.  That would be a service!  If people stray from that path they are own their own but I'd wager those are the radio savvy people who would be OK with that.

The biggest potential issue, to me, is that we likely won't have infrastructure to support member owned radios when encryption arrives on scene.  When we'll REALLY see encryption is the zillion dollar question.  If we limit encryption to missions absolutely requiring its use we won't exclude too many radios.  But that's another topic entirely.

[Eclipse]

Why the Astro Saber?  First, they are CHEAPER now than the EF Johnson radio. 

Saying anything is cheaper then the EFJ's isn't exactly a stretch.  My wing is swimming in 16-channel HT1000's, and they can be picked up fairly easily under $200.  If anything those should be the workhorses of CAP as they are compliant, and popping up all over the place as the Guard and other agencies cycle them out of their use.

We recently received an offer donation of 150 (yes 150) HT1K's from the local Guard.  The biggest challenge was what the heck to do with that many radios.

If you will use this as your primary CAP radio, you might want an "Astro Vehicular Adapter," which is a unit that you mount in your car.  The Astro Saber drops into this and becomes a mobile rig, hooked up to a car-mounted antenna, speaker and hand mic.  The SVA -- a similar unit for the standard Saber -- WILL NOT WORK.

I thought it was against CAP regs to use an HT connected to a mobile antenna, or is that just specific to certain radios?

I was looking at one of those fancy Throat Mics for my MT2000, but figured it would make me look like a tool so I just went for the regular speaker mic add-on.

Most of the people up my way use surveillance mics, or at least the earpieces on the speaker mics - makes for a much more pleasant environment without all the background noise.

Now I do think it would be great if a given wing invested in equipment to support one type of member owned radio.  Find a reasonably priced radio and offer free programming to members.  That would be a service!  If people stray from that path they are own their own but I'd wager those are the radio savvy people who would be OK with that.

No matter what they chose, there would always be someone whining it didn't cover their, and with the good people of Kowl-Loon making stuff close to "free", if you're able to afford a radio, you can afford the accessories.

Besides, the wing's job is to encourage the use of corporate assets, not necessarily member-owned, especially if it costs the wing money.  I would say, however, that most wing DC's should at least have the ability to program whatever is handed to them.

[wuzafuzz]

Now I do think it would be great if a given wing invested in equipment to support one type of member owned radio.  Find a reasonably priced radio and offer free programming to members.  That would be a service!  If people stray from that path they are own their own but I'd wager those are the radio savvy people who would be OK with that.

No matter what they chose, there would always be someone whining it didn't cover their, and with the good people of Kowl-Loon making stuff close to "free", if you're able to afford a radio, you can afford the accessories.

Besides, the wing's job is to encourage the use of corporate assets, not necessarily member-owned, especially if it costs the wing money.  I would say, however, that most wing DC's should at least have the ability to program whatever is handed to them.

Whiners will always exist but needn't affect such a program.  "If you have 'this,' we can do 'this" for you."

There is no reason a wing or squadron can't provide such a service if funds are available.  Local decision on the use of money.  Doing so would not be inconsistent with encouraging best use of corporate assets.  Member owned radios are a beneficial supplement to our corporate assets; if we can make that a little easier for members it's not a bad thing.

[Slim]

We recently received an offer donation of 150 (yes 150) HT1K's from the local Guard.  The biggest challenge was what the heck to do with that many radios.

Don't suppose you guys would be willing to transfer a dozen to MIWG, would you?  Would sure be nice to have enough to support an encampment without having to beg for assets from our go kits, and eventually have to borrow some from our support base, just to have enough.

There's nothing wrong with the Astro Saber; for the right price, I'd pick one up.  The only real downside to the Astro Saber is the size of it.  With the ultra-high capacity battery, that guy's twice the size of an EFJ 5100.  But, you can't kill 'em for nothing, and they'll just keep going.

Using the radio through a convertacom, or AVA, is an issue.  Just because a radio is compliant as a handheld doesn't necessarily mean it'll still be compliant with an external power source and antenna.  There are different compliance requirements for portables and mobiles.

I've got my sights set on an XTS-3000, if i can find the right model, with the right flash, for the right price (and have the disposable income).  Downside is that it's also out of support with big M, upside is that it uses the same accessories as my MT-2000, with the exception of batteries and programming software.

The XTS-5000 is a great radio, and also has commonality in accessories to the HT/MT series, and the XTS-3000.  The downside is that the 5000 is still a current version, and the right radio, with the proper flash for P-25 is still pretty steep.  I haven't seen one go for less than a grand.

[arajca]

Another plus to the XTS3000/5000 is they use the smae batteries, chargers, and speaker mikes as the EF Johnsons.

[Buzz]

There's nothing wrong with the Astro Saber; for the right price, I'd pick one up.  The only real downside to the Astro Saber is the size of it.  With the ultra-high capacity battery, that guy's twice the size of an EFJ 5100.  But, you can't kill 'em for nothing, and they'll just keep going.

Which is the whole point.

BTW, my first CAP VHF portable radio was a Regency mobile with a battery pack and a 19" whip antenna.  I've been carrying Saber and Astro Saber radios for 20 years, and have never considered size an issue.  I have never had one of them fail, which is a lot more than I can say about pretty much every other radio I've seen folks using, including the EFJ.

Using the radio through a convertacom, or AVA, is an issue.  Just because a radio is compliant as a handheld doesn't necessarily mean it'll still be compliant with an external power source and antenna.  There are different compliance requirements for portables and mobiles.

All the AVA does is provide power, an audio amplifier, and connections for external mic, speaker and antenna.  None of these in any way affects bandwidth or frequency stability.

[Buzz]

We recently received an offer donation of 150 (yes 150) HT1K's from the local Guard.  The biggest challenge was what the heck to do with that many radios.

I can't think of any reason not to accept.  So many possibilities will open that you will wish it had been more of them.

[Eclipse]

It wasn't my offer to refuse, but I know there were some questions about who would get them and where they would go.
I don't know the full details - it was ICENINE's AOR and it was only mentioned in passing to me.

Like many wings we are swimming in equipment we can't issue, and the stuff out there already is not utilized to its fullest.

We've already go-packs for encampments and air shows, and don't really need them for most missions.  There are GTL sets all over the wing
under the TOA, and most of those members have their own radios and prefer them, so...

[Buzz]

I think that you guys are missing my big point on standardization.

A standard doesn't mean that something is the only choice, it just means that it is a better choice for a wider range of uses and users.  The Gonset and Regency radios from my cadet days are now museum pieces, but in their day, they were the standards -- but nobody would ever claim that they were the best radios which could be used.  There were Regency rigs in use until the VHF blackout date, because they did the job and were cost-effective.  Likewise ham radios with the CAP/MARS mod.

Many of the people who were using those radios are still trying to decide what they'll buy as replacements.

The Astro Saber wins hands-down for cost effectiveness, unless you can show me another P25 platform (on the approved list) in the sub-$150 price range.

There are a lot of them out there, more than enough for our needs, and the pool of available spare parts, accessories, etc will be there for years to come.

If someone GIVES you a radio, that's a different story, but if you have to BUY your equipment, why spend more than you have to? 

[Buzz]

It wasn't my offer to refuse, but I know there were some questions about who would get them and where they would go.

Unless these were only on permanent loan and not permitted to be shared throughout CAP, places wouldn't be hard to find.

I learned a long time ago never to refuse equipment which will be useful (as in compliant) a year later, if you can find a place to store it.  Needs can change on a moment's notice -- a lesson which was reinforced 10 years ago.

[Eclipse]

^ That same attitude is why we have garages full of unusable equipment we can't easily get rid of because of DRMO rules.
Not saying that this is the case, here, but we've got a lot of "you never know" junk floating around.

[Buzz]

Note that I specified that it be something which can be shared, for that very reason.

[Slim]

There's nothing wrong with the Astro Saber; for the right price, I'd pick one up.  The only real downside to the Astro Saber is the size of it.  With the ultra-high capacity battery, that guy's twice the size of an EFJ 5100.  But, you can't kill 'em for nothing, and they'll just keep going.

Which is the whole point.

BTW, my first CAP VHF portable radio was a Regency mobile with a battery pack and a 19" whip antenna.  I've been carrying Saber and Astro Saber radios for 20 years, and have never considered size an issue.  I have never had one of them fail, which is a lot more than I can say about pretty much every other radio I've seen folks using, including the EFJ.

Don't get me wrong, I carried a Saber for years at work, and still own one.  They're great radios, and they just don't break.  I also own an MT-2000, several HT-1000s, and a few of the old Genesis series radios.  I don't necessarily mind a big radio, but why carry a big one if you can get one a little more reasonably sized?

Using the radio through a convertacom, or AVA, is an issue.  Just because a radio is compliant as a handheld doesn't necessarily mean it'll still be compliant with an external power source and antenna.  There are different compliance requirements for portables and mobiles.

All the AVA does is provide power, an audio amplifier, and connections for external mic, speaker and antenna.  None of these in any way affects bandwidth or frequency stability.

Which essentially makes it a mobile radio by adding that external power source and antenna.  Sure, you could probably do it anyway, and nobody would notice it, but that still doesn't make it right (I think I've heard the word "Integrity" thrown around someplace).  The Astro Saber (or any other portable radio) hasn't been tested by the NTC as compliant as anything but a portable radio.  And the standards are different between the two.  It's not like the days of olde in CAP communications when I could take my Kenwood TH-215A, put an external antenna and an amplifier on it, and be good to go as a mobile radio.

[Buzz]

why carry a big one if you can get one a little more reasonably sized?

You mean, why carry a $150 big one that is hard to kill, with readily -available big batteries for $50 and any accessory that you can use, instead of a $450 smaller one which isn't quite so tough and which needs $90 batteries and has a limited range of accessories?

Which essentially makes it a mobile radio by adding that external power source and antenna.

FCC doesn't consider AS-in-AVA as a separate radio type, and I know from personal experience that there have been plenty of AVAs used by various NTIA-controlled Federal agencies AND THE AIR FORCE.  Some are still in service here and there.  Until I see something to indicate otherwise, I'm going to assume that the Feds have accepted the AS-AVA combination as being an AS and leave it at that.

As the EFJ is designed to operate while the battery is being charged, but is not given a separate approval by NTC for this "configuration," it's plain to see that NTC doesn't consider battery chargers to be an issue.  I also see nothing to indicate a separate approval or disapproval for external microphone, speaker or antenna on the EFJ -- is there a specific restriction or prohibition in the manual for connecting these things?  If not, again we have to assume that NTC doesn't consider use of these to make the portable into a mobile or base station.

The question is how tightly you believe the NTC approval to be issued.  Is a radio on the list only approved with the original factory-supplied battery?  Can you use a Sony headset instead of a factory-issue earplug?  If the concern is strictly about emission standards -- which is my understanding, not only from reading the info but also from discussions with NTC a few years ago regarding keeping the non-Astro radios in service -- then so long as you don't go outside the standards, you're good to go.

[Eclipse]

Assume whatever you like, as you know, the FCC does not control our radios, NTIA does, and just because you've seen someone violating the rules (because it was convenient and they didn't ask), doesn't change the rules.

Does the NTIA consider the mobile configuration verboten?

[RADIOMAN015]

Assume whatever you like, as you know, the FCC does not control our radios, NTIA does, and just because you've seen someone violating the rules (because it was convenient and they didn't ask), doesn't change the rules.

Does the NTIA consider the mobile configuration verboten?

CAP utilizes DOD/AF frequencies and therefore should be asking the appropriate land mobile radio chiefs at via the chain of command e.g.  AU, AETC, HQ USAF.   Adding microphones, speakers, or a different power source does not affect power output or transmitter frequency stability.   Certain external antennas with high gains might be an issue.  I don't see any issue with a small magnetic mount antenna on the roof of a vehicle attached to a portable inside the vehicle.  It will ensure that adequate comms can be maintained while the vehicle is in motion versus having to stop the vehicle and exit away from the vehicle in order to obtain adequate comms.  One does have to look at operational efficiency when only portables are available.   I heard rumors that those with 5 watt portables (with magnetic mount antennas on the vehicle roof) have seen very good improvement in accessing repeaters while mobile, where before no access or choppy access occurred. 

RM         

[wuzafuzz]

Can anyone cite an NTIA rule or CAP directive that prohibits external antennas on portable radios?  Can anyone provide documentary proof that spectral efficiency is hampered with an external antenna?

Note I am only asking about external antennas.  The instant any portable solution includes a power amplifier, all bets are off.

[Buzz]

Assume whatever you like, as you know, the FCC does not control our radios, NTIA does 

Not true.  The FCC is the certifying agency for our radios.  NTIA and NTC approve or disapprove radios based on the FCC certification data.

and just because you've seen someone violating the rules (because it was convenient and they didn't ask), doesn't change the rules.

Which rule prohibits operating a portable radio while it is connected to an external power supply?  Be specific.

Which rule prohibits operating a portable radio while it is connected to an external antenna?  Be specific.

AVAs don't just grow, they have to be purchased.  I would love to hear how the many-many AVAs that I've seen in Federal vehicles (including AF vehicles) got through the purchase process if they were a violation of the rules.

You and Slim are operating on the belief that connecting external power, microphone, speaker and antenna changes a portable radio into a mobile (or base) radio.  Unless you can find A). a rule which agrees, and B), A PROHIBITION against doing so, there is really no point to the argument. 

Work the numbers:
1)  In CAP decision-making, where there is no prohibition or direction, you are expected to use common sense and judgment.
2)  NTIA and NTC compliance are SOLELY based on emission standards.
3)  Emission standards are not affected by power supply, microphone, speaker, antenna or mounting / carrying method.
4)  The AVA only provides a convenient method of connecting those to the Astro Saber.
5)  The Astro Saber is listed as being NTIA and NTC compliant.

Where in there do you find room for concern, much less reason?