Blue Utility Jumpsuit for GSAR

[davedove]

As a reminder, we are talking about the CAP utility jumpsuit, not a flightsuit

Although, when I looked on Propper's site yesterday, their flight suit looks almost identical to the Rothco jumpsuit.

That is just the thing. CAP only uses the flight suit type utility anymore. If you look at VG's website, the blue utility jump suit is the flight suit, just not made with Nomex. There is also no reason to change to that uniform for field work. As I have said, and some others, if the BDU is still a good uniform for a combat deployment then it is perfect for what we need. If the "jumpsuit" were good for field work, then the entire military would be wearing it, yet no one is. Why is that?

I believe what Eclipse was saying is that it wouldn't be bad for the typical CAP fieldwork.  I know in my area, GT missions typically involve driving a lot and hopping out for short periods of time.  Sure there are exceptions, but that is the majority of time.  Now, this may be different in some areas, but it sure isn't in mine.

[Eclipse]

I believe what Eclipse was saying is that it wouldn't be bad for the typical CAP fieldwork.  I know in my area, GT missions typically involve driving a lot and hopping out for short periods of time.  Sure there are exceptions, but that is the majority of time.  Now, this may be different in some areas, but it sure isn't in mine.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Same goes for people with plate carriers and 50 lbs of tactical gear for do cornfield SAR for an Alzheimer's patient, or well-being checks in a DR.

That is just the thing. CAP only uses the flight suit type utility anymore. If you look at VG's website, the blue utility jump suit is the flight suit, just not made with Nomex.

They are specifically different garments, with different mission intentions.

There is also no reason to change to that uniform for field work.

Nothing is changing - the utility jumpsuit is, and always has been, approved for wear by GT & UDF teams.

As I have said, and some others, if the BDU is still a good uniform for a combat deployment then it is perfect for what we need.

We are not a combatant service, so anything "perfect" in that situation likely makes it a detractor for our use.  Further there are plenty of
service members who hate the ABU/ACU.

The USAF wears the ACU in the office for airmen who have no combatant or operational role.  Is it "perfect" in that instance as well?

If the "jumpsuit" were good for field work, then the entire military would be wearing it, yet no one is. Why is that?

The military doesn't do what we do, nor in the way we do it.

Tactical pants and a golf shirt are more appropriate to 90-% of our operations than any other uniform we have available, including
air operations.

Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.

Well if in a large scale mission like Katrina, I do expect to be in the dirt, not in mission base. I perform ground ops, I try not to be in mission base, if I need to be in mission base, I will be dressed and ready to get in the dirt. I don't know how your guys dress their equipment but I am yet to see anyone in a plate carrier or the sort.

The majority of people's problems with the ACU and ABU including my problem is the pattern and color, neither of which is suitable for any environment that the military is in. Other than that we have loved the ACU, I have never worn the ABU, but I have seen and felt the fabric and all it is is is the BDU in a horrible camouflage pattern, with some nice extra pockets. If I could I would wear an ACU cut uniform in BDU pattern for CAP, it is the most comfortable thing I have ever worn. I have also worn jumpsuits for vehicle maintenance  in the Army, and they are very uncomfortable climbing around in them.

I think if you want to wear your jumpsuit in the field, go for it. Just don't take what is comfortable for me away just because you don't like it. The BDU works great. I have also been on SAR missions as a cadet, and I wore the BDU then as well, and I wouldn't have worn anything else then either.

[Eclipse]

Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.

Well if in a large scale mission like Katrina, I do expect to be in the dirt, not in mission base. I perform ground ops, I try not to be in mission base, if I need to be in mission base

Then your expectations and understanding of what CAP does in these situations is incorrect.

The most aggressive operations Katrina were urban house to house well being checks in the DR.  The area was FUBAR, no question,
but the infrastructure was on its was to restoration, and beyond camping because the teams had to sleep "somewhere", no one was "in the dirt.

Our teams' single biggest advantage as a resource is the assumption of being self-sustaining if necessary, but the necessity for that, or anything approaching real field craft (beyond people doing it because they want to), is nearly zero.

What people on extended missions find out quickly is that by day two or three of actual "work" in the field, it ain't so much "fun" anymore,
and they would just as soon as hit a hotel or a cot in a highschool as wilderness camp.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.

Well if in a large scale mission like Katrina, I do expect to be in the dirt, not in mission base. I perform ground ops, I try not to be in mission base, if I need to be in mission base

Then your expectations and understanding of what CAP does in these situations is incorrect.

The most aggressive operations Katrina were urban house to house well being checks in the DR.  The area was FUBAR, no question,
but the infrastructure was on its was to restoration, and beyond camping because the teams had to sleep "somewhere", no one was "in the dirt.

Our teams' single biggest advantage as a resource is the assumption of being self-sustaining if necessary, but the necessity for that, or anything approaching real field craft (beyond people doing it because they want to), is nearly zero.

What people on extended missions find out quickly is that by day two or three of actual "work" in the field, it ain't so much "fun" anymore,
and they would just as soon as hit a hotel or a cot in a highschool as wilderness camp.

Day one no one should think it is fun. It is work. So there is no chance or need to have a team ready to search for a missing person or group of people in a natural disaster is that what your saying?

Being "in the dirt" doesn't mean you are sleeping there, it means you are working there.

[RiverAux]

Still waiting for examples of full-time professionals who work out in the woods/forest/deserts doing work equivalent to what a CAP ground SAR team does that wear jumpsuits. 

If the people who do it for a living wear some variation of pants and shirt rather than a 1 piece jumpsuit, that says an awful lot about what is really practical. 

Over 20 years working in the woods and have yet to see a jumpsuit. 

[EMT-83]

^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

[RiverAux]

I hadn't thought of that, but you're absolutely right and its a darn fine reason not to use them. 

[Spaceman3750]

^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper 

That could be one rather painful zipper.

[jeders]

^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper 

Or a button up flap. Makes them even more like footy pajamas. 

[wuzafuzz]

Bottom line: dress for your day. 

Utility jumpsuit for GSAR?  Not in my neck of the woods.  I'll take BDU's or BBDU's.  For UDF?  Sure.  Mission base?  Why not...I prefer the polo for ICP duty but that's just my preference.

[RiverAux]

Now, I will say that if I was in an urban area with an extremely high ELT mission tempo (if such a place exists anymore), that the jumpsuit might make its way into my car during the parts of the year where the weather is mild.  Being able to slip it over another set of clothes does have its advantages in those situations. 

[arBar]

^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper 

Or a button up flap. Makes them even more like footy pajamas. 

Trying to picture how that reg change would be announced if it ever went into effect.  That could be funny 

[Spaceman3750]

Still waiting for examples of full-time professionals who work out in the woods/forest/deserts doing work equivalent to what a CAP ground SAR team does that wear jumpsuits. 

Credit: Goldman Sachs (http://www2.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/progress/energy/index.html)

I saw the full-size ad in Wired, it's a jumpsuit, I promise. I know we aren't climbing wind turbines in CAP but I'm pretty sure it's a very demanding job on one's clothing.

[RiverAux]

Yep, and its very similar to the other activities I mentioned in my first post -- those where you want to keep flaps of clothing and dangling bits to a minimum so that they don't cause a safety risk.  As someone who has done a limited amount of work in safety harnesses of one type or another, I would wear a jumpsuit if possible in those situations as well. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yep, and its very similar to the other activities I mentioned in my first post -- those where you want to keep flaps of clothing and dangling bits to a minimum so that they don't cause a safety risk.  As someone who has done a limited amount of work in safety harnesses of one type or another, I would wear a jumpsuit if possible in those situations as well.

I have spent plenty of time in a harness most of which was hanging from a helicopter and some of it while moving. I have never had an issue with my uniform or anything getting caught. This was with body armor a pack on my back a rifle hanging on my side a pistol on my thigh and some times even an RPG hanging on my back. If I didn't have any trouble with my BDU/ACU uniform then, I don't think there should be any issue in what CAP does while in BDUs.

[RiverAux]

Didn't say there was a problem with CAP BDUS -- I've been one of the ones saying jumpsuits would be silly for walking in the woods.  I was describing a situation where a jumpsuit might make sense. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Didn't say there was a problem with CAP BDUS -- I've been one of the ones saying jumpsuits would be silly for walking in the woods.  I was describing a situation where a jumpsuit might make sense.

Believe me it wasn't a stab at you.

I just don't think there is a need for a jump/flightsuit anywhere but in a cramped space like a cockpit. Other than that you should use something that was made with the intent to be worn in the field for long term situations, something like the BDU that has been in place for over 50 years, the only thing that has changed about BDUs is the pattern and the cut. Other than that, it has always been boots, pants, t shirt, jacket and headgear. Every part plays an important role if they are worn properly. When you start using jumpsuits on the ground you will start running into problems, things like improper fit when layering underneath, inability to use the latrine, and many more, those are just two of the major issues.

Now I have to say that I have been around some soldiers that did wear a jumpsuit in the field, they were marine dog handlers, they hated wearing them. Being that they were attached to our TF they asked our 1SG if they could get a couple of pairs of ACUs, and our command said not a problem. Their complaints? They couldn't perform certain bodily functions while in the jumpsuit, when it was cold they couldn't layer under them without getting a wedgie because of it being one solid piece that starts at the shoulders and ends at the ankles, when you add size under the uniform, it won't fit right at all, they didn't breathe as well as the BDUs because there was no break in the uniform at the waist, and they didn't have enough pockets to store some items that they didn't want on their armor.