I'm not saying that I'm going to do this, but the thought of it makes me chuckle. What would happen if someone wore their CAP blues uniform to AF basic training? How do you think the flight staff would react when you got off the bus? ;D
I am sure the TI would be laughing so hard that they could not do anything......OR
They would chew you a new body cavity.....
Front leaning rest. Better yet.....you would be made class leader or flight leader or whatever the AF calls those guys who are held responsible during basic for everything the group does or fails to do.
Reality kicks in and all I see is laughing in your face. ;D
Not sure you'd make it out of MEPS before getting your butt kicked...probably by some other former CAP cadet...
...hmmm... how to handle the drill instructor... hmmm... 30 years later makes a bit of difference... I doubt a drill instructor / sergeant could phase me now. There was a time when, like everyone else, they scared me. Of course such fear is what motivates this thread. Now, if he/she were to start shouting at me, I'd probably loudly tell him/her to "please stop shouting at me. Tell me what you want me to do and I will do it, but please stop the shouting; it is really annoying and unnecessary."
Wear your CAP uniform to Basic? Why would it be any different to them than any other civilian clothing? It is not an Air Force uniform, so it's not what they want you to be wearing. Are you communicating something to them? If so, what? That you are a fine upstanding youth here to serve your country? Works for me, but I have no idea if they will recognize what a CAP uniform represents. A shame for them.
If memory serves me correctly, your first few days will be in a receiving unit where they will outfit you with uniforms, vaccinations, shave your head and complete initial paperwork. After all that is done THEN they introduce you to your new drill sergeant. So in other words, your new drill sergeant will have never seen you in your CAP uniform.
Way, way back when... I toyed with the idea of showing up for Army basic (in the 70's when it was considered really stupid to join the Army) wearing a "Soldier of Fortune" magazine "Death From Above" T-shirt... didn't do it, and it's a shame that I didn't...
All that having been said, Cadet, if you are ready to move from CAP to active service, I salute you.
<<Nomex SALUTES>>
I have it on good authority that you are wise to not discuss your CAP "career" in Basic. Anything you say can and will be used against you....do you really want to be called "Master Sgt" by a group of guys who are just looking for someone to humiliate? Don't even bring your membership card. Treat the Tac's like you would treat Al Quaida.....
Major Lord
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on January 01, 2008, 01:29:58 AM
If memory serves me correctly, your first few days will be in a receiving unit where they will outfit you with uniforms, vaccinations, shave your head and complete initial paperwork. After all that is done THEN they introduce you to your new drill sergeant. So in other words, your new drill sergeant will have never seen you in your CAP uniform.
Not in the AF; at least, not as I recall it from the mid-70s. When we got off the bus from the airport to Lackland, we were met by our TIs ... the same dudes who made life miserable for the next six and a half weeks. I'll never forget SSgt Bong and SSgt Williams on either side of me screaming because I knew how to do an about face -- I had two years of Army ROTC in high school. That's how I got made a squad leader (we still called 'em squads back then).
That being said ... don't wear your CAP uniform to basic. You'd have the same impact if you wore a t-shirt with a target and bull's-eye on it.
Jack
Like I said, I don't plan on doing this. I'm just curious as to what the initial look on the FC's face, however fleeting, would look like.
QuoteI'll never forget SSgt Bong and SSgt Williams on either side of me screaming because I knew how to do an about face -- I had two years of Army ROTC in high school.
Why did they yell? (stupid question, allow a rephrase) Were they mad at you for knowing, or just trying to humiliate you?
Quote from: Major Lord on January 01, 2008, 01:33:42 AM
I have it on good authority that you are wise to not discuss your CAP "career" in Basic. Anything you say can and will be used against you...
I attended Army basic in 1989 and when asked why I had extra stripes, I replied "Civil Air Patrol". The Drill Sergeant's response was "What? ? ? ? ? ? ? the? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? huh? ? ? ?" I then said it's like ROTC and he walked away. I never mentioned it again.
^Do you get to pin on the extra stripe during or after basic?
^ After.....right before graduation. Then all your buddies are like "what the crap dude?!?!
PLUS......knowing you are making a few bucks more than your peers in basic is a motivator as well!
^Next burning question, do you have to jump a couple extra hoops to get the paperwork from CAP-NHQ over to USAF to get the promo? Or is it done automatically?
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 01, 2008, 03:16:20 AM
^Next burning question, do you have to jump a couple extra hoops to get the paperwork from CAP-NHQ over to USAF to get the promo? Or is it done automatically?
You hand your recruiter a copy of your Mitchell (or higher) certificate. Make sure the advanced rank is in your contract too.
I got my stripe day 1 of BCT, but I didn't wear it until graduation. Other guys did and a lot more was expected of them. I just impressed them as a fast learner.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 01, 2008, 02:51:00 AM
Why did they yell? (stupid question, allow a rephrase) Were they mad at you for knowing, or just trying to humiliate you?
Yes.
;)
Jack
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 01, 2008, 02:59:24 AM
^Do you get to pin on the extra stripe during or after basic?
I signed a six-year enlistment contract in 1975 and was promoted to E-3 the day I graduated from BMT. (We won't talk about what happened a few days later that ended my career ... not fun to remember.) I got to go home with A1C stripes on my uniform, though.
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on January 01, 2008, 05:21:53 AM
(We won't talk about what happened a few days later that ended my career ... not fun to remember.)
See now we just hav-ta ask.....
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on January 01, 2008, 02:59:24 AM
^Do you get to pin on the extra stripe during or after basic?
I (along with all the other 'advanced' Privates) were given our stripes on day one and were pretty much forced to wear them for our entire basic training cycle. For the first few days, the Drill Sergeants carried a list of names/ranks and would call people out for details/instruction/ect. If your collar didn't match the Drill Sergeant's list, you were given special instruction in the area of muscle failure on account of your "being out of uniform".
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on January 01, 2008, 05:34:44 AM
See now we just hav-ta ask.....
I was thinking the same thing !
(http://www.k3bm.com/photos/baby.gif)
^ ;D ;D
As stated above, don't make yourself a 'TI target' as soon as you get off the bus at Lackland. Back in my days WIWOAD they used to offer a 'proficiency advancement' program for basic trainees who already had some experience in military cadet programs (CAP, JROTC, etc.). It's no longer offered - you can get the stripes, but you gotta do the full term of basic training. (You do get paid at E-3 grade from day 1.)
The AF BMT PA program was basically six weeks of basic training crammed into about two and a half weeks, starting after the 7th day of training. You slept with and ate chow with your BMT flight but after chow you reported to the orderly room and given a letter with directions and appointments to report to other BMT flights that were ahead of you in training. Miss an appointment, fail any required training or get too many 341s (demerit slips) and PA ended on the spot. TIs had a particular affinity for spotting PAs, and many - including myself - wound up at the 'snake pit' (the tables in the chow hall reserved for TIs and staff) getting beat down.
Out of four in my BMT flight (Flight 336, 3711 BMTS - aka the 'Blue Marines') I was the only one who successfully completed the PA program. Even then, I was still looking over my shoulder in absolute terror waiting for the inevitable 'AIRMAN CORWAY, PROCEED OVER HERE!' from a TI - that usually was when you got the news that you failed PA. I didn't relax until the plane arrived in Denver for tech school at Lowry AFB.
I went to basic with a guy who had a combat patch (Vietnam vet) who was going back thru for the National Guard (with his son, no less). IIRC, he was 37 years old. We called him "Pappy." (I'm 41 now, all I can think is "Some SOB calls me 'Pappy' he's gonna get a size 10 Corcoran suppository.")
The drill sergeants would scream at him and he'd have this sort of deadpan, hang dog expression on his face, one that more or less said "Unless you're planning to shoot me or something, stop shouting at me. We didn't do this crap in the *real Army* back when there was a war on."
He got a ton of crap for all 8 weeks. It was strange to see a guy with 2 rows of ribbons and a combat patch at graduation.
The Air Force was full in 1966, and I ended up in the Navy. The Navy did not award advanced rank for CAP participation, but my Chief was a former cadet, from back during World War II. He gave me the Airman book, and told me to see him when I was ready to test. I aced the test for Airman Apprentice, and was promoted to E-2 before I started basic. The Chief talked to the testing officer, and told him I should take the test for Airman the same day. After some discussion and regulation-reading, I took the Airman test and only missed 1 question. I was issued promotion orders later in the day to E-3, but with an effective date 4 months later. That put my E-3 rank effective about a week or so before boot camp graduation.
That was the FIRST TIME I came to realize that three others in my boot camp class had been former cadets. We succeeded in keeping a very low profile. But the four of us getting E-3 before completing recruit training impressed our otherwise very-hard-to-please drill instructors. We were for that last week given extra privileges in the form of extra smoke breaks, which meant nothing to me since I did not smoke.
My advice to basic trainees: Keep the lowest possible profile. Be neither the first nor the last. Try to create no ripples in the sea of blue or green that can attract unwanted attention. Pride yourself on the fact that the T.I. does NOT know your name.
Quote from: NIN on January 01, 2008, 03:57:02 PM
I went to basic with a guy who had a combat patch (Vietnam vet) who was going back thru for the National Guard (with his son, no less). IIRC, he was 37 years old. We called him "Pappy." (I'm 41 now, all I can think is "Some SOB calls me 'Pappy' he's gonna get a size 10 Corcoran suppository.")
The drill sergeants would scream at him and he'd have this sort of deadpan, hang dog expression on his face, one that more or less said "Unless you're planning to shoot me or something, stop shouting at me. We didn't do this crap in the *real Army* back when there was a war on."
He got a ton of crap for all 8 weeks. It was strange to see a guy with 2 rows of ribbons and a combat patch at graduation.
That's a great story sir.
I've seen/heard stories about guys with CIB's, the Medal of Honor, etc etc at Basic.
I was never in the Air Force. But I had a friend who had been drafted in during Vietnam. He related the following story.
He had completed basic and the group was gathered to receive their next orders from the sergeants. The sergeant told him that he had been assigned to be a "Protective Coatings Specialist". He asked the sergeant what a "Protective Coatings Specialist" did. The sergeant replied, "Son, you're going to be a G** d***ed Painter!"
And, my friend said, he spent the next four years of his life painting things for the Air Force. But, he said he always knew that he could spend every last dollar in his pocket he'd still always have a place to sleep and food to eat.
I would say, take your skills and leadership practices you learned in CAP and leave the Uniform at home.
As I understand it, they are going to bring down to your "basic levels" and build you back up as an airman (solider, sailor, marine), showing up in a uniform migth make you look "presumptuous" and like draw "unwanted attention."
Quote from: NIN on January 01, 2008, 03:57:02 PM
I went to basic with a guy who had a combat patch (Vietnam vet) who was going back thru for the National Guard...<snip> It was strange to see a guy with 2 rows of ribbons and a combat patch at graduation.
I too had a Vietnam-era guy in my Company and it was odd to see him at graduation with combat patch (101st Division), CIB, and two rows of ribbons. :o
Quote from: baronet68 on January 01, 2008, 11:17:23 PM
Quote from: NIN on January 01, 2008, 03:57:02 PM
I went to basic with a guy who had a combat patch (Vietnam vet) who was going back thru for the National Guard...<snip> It was strange to see a guy with 2 rows of ribbons and a combat patch at graduation.
I too had a Vietnam-era guy in my Company and it was odd to see him at graduation with combat patch (101st Division), CIB, and two rows of ribbons. :o
I went to Infantry OSUT in 1991. We had a prior service E-6 1st BN Ranger who jumped into Grenada sportin' a CIB, Master Blaster with "mustard stain", Pathfinder, Ranger Tab and Combat BN Scroll. He had been out 7 years and was going back into the ARNG. He didn't have to go to BCT but we picked him up when we started AIT. It was the opposite of NIN's experience, the Drill Sergeants just kind of let him do his thing. Funny thing though, I figured he'd be an E-4, but he wore Mosquito Wings as an E-2.
In my boot camp company, (USMC) we hada prior Army E-6. Master Parachutist, couple rows of ribbons, graduated a Proud Marine PFC!. Dude said he always wanted to be a Marine.
Quote from: Flying Pig on January 01, 2008, 11:58:54 PM
In my boot camp company, (USMC) we hada prior Army E-6. Master Parachutist, couple rows of ribbons, graduated a Proud Marine PFC!. Dude said he always wanted to be a Marine.
Yep, had a guy I was on active duty with and in the guard. He was an E-5 with Airborne, Air Assault and EIB, plus about 9 ribbons. Went USMC and was a PFC, only allowed to wear his jump wings. I like how the USMC does that.
^ I don't like that! It does happen on the Officer side too. An AF Lt Col came into the Army as a Warrant so she could continue on her time toward retirement. Then there are those that transfer and become NCO's. Weird stuff sometimes!
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 02, 2008, 01:56:08 AM
^ I don't like that! It does happen on the Officer side too. An AF Lt Col came into the Army as a Warrant so she could continue on her time toward retirement. Then there are those that transfer and become NCO's. Weird stuff sometimes!
Sometimes it's not a voluntary transfer. I worked in radio with the wife of a retired AF LtCol who was given a choice at 20 years -- retire now as you are, or stay in and go for 30 -- but spend the last ten years as a SMSgt.
He chose the officer option.
Not sure about the details of the deal, but I suspect it had something to do with a RIF that was going on at the time.
Jack
^ Sounds about right. Add it to the list of ways the military likes to screw its people over.
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 02, 2008, 02:51:30 AM
^ Sounds about right. Add it to the list of ways the military likes to screw its people over.
Its about cost, and slots available. If you- the Government has too many Lt. Cols, due to end of conflict ie the conflict is over and budgets are cut, but are short on NCO's due to them getting out; you have the following options:
Ask Lt. Col to go to SMSgt so they can continue to serve at a level needed
or
RIF the Lt. Col. and promote NCO's.
What do you do?
Either way, the Lt. Col. will be out of the O-5 slot. Either way, the O-5 gets "screwed over." BTW even if the Lt. Col took the E-8 job, would still retire at O-5*.
*When I went threw MEPS, there was a Col. that went to SFC because he wanted to help recruit. I was told that he would retire Colonel.
^ oh no doubt you retire at what gets you more $$. I think we are seeing and will continue to see the AF transition Officers out, and the Army is always more than willing to accept them.
I am a firm believer that there should be one ROTC program in the country. The first three years would be basic skills, the final year, the cadets would split into specialized classes related to what service they are going to. I also believe that if one service is lacking Junior Officers one year, then those Cadets Commissioned from West Point, Annapolis, and AFA that year should be transfered to the service needing new Officers the most. Right now it is Army. So the Graduating classes of 2008 would all be thrown together and a lottery done to decide where the new Officer will go. Some will hate it, but the needs of the military far outweigh personal desires.
Desire to serve in one branch of the military is great, but we need more integration between the services and I think the Army and Air Force would be a good trial for my new program. Leadership, history and various other subjects are more common between the AF and Army than any other branches. Perhaps an Officer wants to serve in the AF. Instead he gets selected to serve in the Army. But after being in the Army for 3 years the AF announces it is in need of Captains. At the same time the Army announces it will have too many Captains. So he is first on the list to transfer to the AF if he so desires.
Wow, when I am Secretary of Defense............
Cardinal rule of basic: blend in.
If you have to stand out, do it through performance.
Quote from: O-Rex on January 02, 2008, 12:57:53 PM
Cardinal rule of basic: blend in.
If you have to stand out, do it through performance.
I had two cadets joint the ARNG here and went off to Basic within about 30 days of one another. They're in AIT right now, also together. Before they both left, I gave them my standard "Be the gray man" lecture: "Don't stand out if you can avoid it. It just draws fire. Be the gray man. The goal is to have your drill sergeant be shaking people's hands after graduation and look at you and say 'You're in my platoon?' That's the goal. You'll never achieve that kind of anonymous nirvana, but you can sure as heck keep striving for it."
They were back for Christmas and they both said that they arrived at Fort "Relaxin' in" Jackson with that advice in mind. The both agreed that their CAP service stood them in good stead to prepare them for basic as far as customs and courtesies, rank identification, uniform wear and drill & ceremonies went.
Both were made squad leaders within the first week.
It seems to me that you have to be TRYING to forget what you learned to not stick out like a sore thumb.
In my case, I drew fire (accidentally) during reception. We got uniforms but did not get haircuts initially. My hair was short (for the 1980s), but not basic training short, unlike many of my compatriots there who looked like they were fresh from a Bon Jovi concert. The day after we got our uniforms, a Saturday, I'm standing in first squad during morning formation and the drill sergeant is walking up and down the platoon and barks "Platoon! Attention!" and the first thing I did was snap to parade rest before assuming attention
(while everybody else sort of starts thinking about standing a little straighter, still looking around, feet where they started, hands in pockets, etc. This is still reception, mind you. We haven't been formally taught drill yet).
The drill sergeant stops in front of me and looks me up and down. I'm standing correctly at attention, feet at a 45 degree angle, cap square on my head, no strings hanging from my pockets or seams, trousers bloused evenly, boots brush polished, and I'm staring at a point on the barracks building that's about 6ft up and dead ahead. He shrugs his shoulders and continues his pace. I immediately cringe, realizing that in my effort to clean my uniforms up like I'd been doing the previous 5 years, all I really managed to do was call attention to myself. Luckily, the reception drill sergeants could give a crap about you and your BDUs. They're there to make sure you go to bed, get up, get to chow, and get to the places where you get your shots and paperwork. Nothing more.
The next day was the "diagnostic" PT test where we had to do "13 correct military-style pushups" to be shipped to basic training. Unfortunately for me, the CAP PT program at the time, the 1 mile run, did
nothing for my upper body strength. Couple that with the 15-20 "practice" pushups a number of us did in the barracks the night before to make sure we could do "correct military-style pushups"
(they were harping on doing them in the correct form, so we were all a little freaked out) and an extremely bored corporal proctoring the test, and, well, my first two weeks at Fort Dix were spent at the Fitness Training Unit instead of Basic Training.
At the FTU, as soon as we got there, we filled out what was later termed a "runaway sheet." It was basically an informal unit personal information sheet about you, your skills, your background, etc. (The term "runaway" came from the idea that if you booked from basic training, went AWOL, they might have some idea where to find you from the info provided.) One entry was "Military Experience (ROTC, etc):" and I, stupidly, put down "Civil Air Patrol."
Sure enough, at the end of the first week there I find myself at parade rest 2 paces in front of my platoon sergeant's desk, explaining to the drill sergeant what Civil Air Patrol is (my buddy from my unit who'd gone in the USMC some months before had just mailed me a writeup about the USMC's "PCP" or "Pork Chop Platoon" at Pendelton, and I had that along to share with the drill sergeants. They were wicked impressed that a private had that kind of info..). Next thing I know, I'm a squad leader in my platoon. The whole time, in between very structured PT events like aerobics, running, partner resisted exercises, weight training, wind sprints, etc, we're also being taught some soldier skills like drill, rank identification, customs and courtesies, uniform wear, (does this sound familiar?) etc, so that by the time we're "in shape" enough to ship to basic, we'll have a little "leg up" on the other troopers.
Of course, now that I'm "outed," I figure "screw it" and I turn it up to 11 on things like D&C, rank ID, customs and courtesies and such to the point where I wind up as the drill sergeant's demonstrator more times than not if the other drill sergeant is not there. We had a little "Drill Off" at the end of the 2nd week, before those of us who'd "shaped up" enough to ship to a BCT company were sent away, and I just crushed the competition because... it was essentially the time-honored "Sergeant O'Grady says.." routine that nearly everybody in my old squadron was awesome at. I can win that in my sleep, with my eyes closed, while jamming to Wagner on my MP3 player...<GRIN>
Come time to ship over to our BCT company, they sent our little gaggle of FTU'ers early, so we're dealing with the senior drill instructor for the company and he's about as laid back as it gets (little did we know, the pain train was coming in just a couple hours).
We get up in the barracks, put our crap in our wall lockers, and the cattle cars arrive from the reception station amid much confusion, shouting and IPT. Its "on like Donkey Kong" for the next 8 weeks.
While filling out my "runaway sheet" that evening, I figured "Well, I did it once and it worked out. Probably won't hurt to do it again" so I put CAP on my sheet again. Little did I know that my drill sergeant from the FTU had a little chat with the drill sergeants from my BCT company and I've been ID'd as "a known good guy with skills" already.
That night, I'm immediately a squad leader. *Pow* Brassard with corporal's stripes and everything. A week later, I'm the platoon guide. 7 weeks later, I'm the company "Solider of the Cycle". I got smoked for some things, sure, but being the platoon guide beat the daylights out of being Joe Private in the ranks. By the 4th or 5th week I was able to see thru the smokescreen that they put out and was able to concentrate on the things that I was weak on (CTT, rifle marksmanship) versus the stuff I already knew, which served me in good stead.
Should I have gone gray man? Yes. But once my cover was blown, I took the mantle and ran with it. And honestly, I learned more about hands-on, direct leadership in those 10 weeks than I had in the previous 5 years as a cadet.
At my OBC, the class leader (an Officer chosen before the class arrives) was a West Pointer. They (the Army) figured he would be a better leader than say some ROTC guy. 1 week into the course, the guy has yet to pass his APFT, is overweight and has no idea how to run a morning formation. He gets fired from the job, and eventually fails the course. He was discharged.
I know that has little to do with wearing uniforms but thought it would be something a little different to make you think. Preconceptions are not always what they turn out to be.
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 02, 2008, 05:50:02 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 02, 2008, 02:51:30 AM
^ Sounds about right. Add it to the list of ways the military likes to screw its people over.
Its about cost, and slots available. If you- the Government has too many Lt. Cols, due to end of conflict ie the conflict is over and budgets are cut, but are short on NCO's due to them getting out; you have the following options:
Ask Lt. Col to go to SMSgt so they can continue to serve at a level needed
or
RIF the Lt. Col. and promote NCO's.
What do you do?
Either way, the Lt. Col. will be out of the O-5 slot. Either way, the O-5 gets "screwed over." BTW even if the Lt. Col took the E-8 job, would still retire at O-5*.
*When I went threw MEPS, there was a Col. that went to SFC because he wanted to help recruit. I was told that he would retire Colonel.
How is the O-5 screwed over? He has failed a Quality Retention Board and/or been passed over twice for advancement. When the cream rose to the top he sank like a stone. He's was lucky to get the offer to enlist and continue his career.
Quote from: Cecil DP on January 03, 2008, 08:02:40 PM
How is the O-5 screwed over? He has failed a Quality Retention Board and/or been passed over twice for advancement. When the cream rose to the top he sank like a stone. He's was lucky to get the offer to enlist and continue his career.
See what the original comment was about. i don't think he was, mikeylikey did.
Quote from: ColonelJack on January 02, 2008, 02:30:02 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 02, 2008, 01:56:08 AM
^ I don't like that! It does happen on the Officer side too. An AF Lt Col came into the Army as a Warrant so she could continue on her time toward retirement. Then there are those that transfer and become NCO's. Weird stuff sometimes!
Sometimes it's not a voluntary transfer. I worked in radio with the wife of a retired AF LtCol who was given a choice at 20 years -- retire now as you are, or stay in and go for 30 -- but spend the last ten years as a SMSgt.
He chose the officer option.
Not sure about the details of the deal, but I suspect it had something to do with a RIF that was going on at the time.
Jack
Well, I guess it happens.....
So I'm at my wing's clinic closing out my profile from back surgery and as I'm in the hallway I see a guy off in the distance in a flight suit but with an army flight jacket. Dude is holding a folder close to his chest but as he turns I notice the CAP Pluto patch, then an officer's flight cap in his lower leg pocket.
As he approaches, I see a leather name tag with Army enlisted aircrew wings with air assault underneath, but his name, "captain" and "CAP" are also on the tag.
Very curious at this point, I ask. "Hey buddy, I see a CAP ES patch on your jacket, you in CAP?" It's actually not out of the ordinary to see any variety of patches on flight suits in the guard, but on an army jacket with the odd leather name tag set-up.
Find out, he showed up in his CAP flight suit to do his enlistment physical for the Air Guard. He's enlisting as a load master with prior service in the army. He told me he was flying (CAP plane) later in the day to a commander's call elsewhere in the state. I asked, why in the world he didn't wear civvies and slip into the flight suit later. He said he wouldn't have time....
I don't know, I just found it....weird. Oh, and he wreaked of cigarette smoke, which isn't illegal, but I find it disgusting nonetheless
Now, I could understand a recent cadet showing up at basic like this, but a prior service, presumably older, senior member? Wow.