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How to refer to CAP NCO

Started by cadetesman, May 23, 2012, 10:19:14 PM

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lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 02:51:04 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 01:04:29 PM
I hate that joke.

1) It is disrepectful towards officers.
2) It is disrepectful toward the person who offered a term of repect....and is rejected so rudely.....if you want to be called something else....just say...."Call me Sergeant Major" and press on.  No one should get a butt chewing for being respectful....even if they did it "wrong".

You can hate it, but as a raw recruit right out of boot, I had it said to me by a chief as a spot correction.  And I've used it with other recruits as a spot correction meant and taken completely seriously.  In the Navy at least it is (was) not used as a joke.

The real military is a rougher culture.  It has been toned down some, but when you consider their ultimate mission is to kill other people, roughness, inflexibility and a certain level of contempt for inexperienced people is to be expected.
Totally disagree.....and I will continue to correct my subordinates and challenge my supeirors and peers NOT to use that joke.

It teach disrepect.  End of argument.

If you want to use a "spot correction"......"Call me Sergeant/Chief/Sergeant Major" is all that is needed.  When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

bflynn

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?

The CyBorg is destroyed

The "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is not just an old wives' tale.  I have never met an NCO of any stripe (ouch), outside of USAF/USMC/USCG(?) basic training who wanted to be addressed as "sir/ma'am."

The way I always learned it:

Commissioned officers: Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Lieutenant") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Warrant officers (which, of course, the USAF doesn't have and they look like lieutenants until you're close enough to see the little squares on their bars): Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Warrant Officer/Chief Warrant Officer" and/or "Mr/Ms/Miss Jones") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Senior NCO's, depending on service:

USAF
"Chief Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Chief" thereafter (if the CMSgt is good with it).
"Senior Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
"Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
The same goes for the lower NCO grades (Technical Sergeant, Staff Sergeant).
"Senior Airman"...I have tended to use the full title; I'm personally not comfortable with just calling a SrA "airman."
A1C and below: "Airman."

USA:
Command Sergeant Major - full title
First Sergeant - full title
Sergeant Major - full title
Master Sergeant and below - full title first time, "Sergeant" thereafter.
Corporal and below - full title

USMC:
Much the same as for the Army.
Gunnery Sergeant - full title, unless the GySgt allows you to call him/her "Gunny."
Lance Corporal - full title

USN/USCG:
Here my knowledge fails, because I don't know the myriad of ratings in the Navy and Coast Guard.
So I just do the following:
Master Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Master Chief"
Senior Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Senior Chief"
Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Chief"
Petty Officers - "Petty Officer"
Seamen - "Seaman," "Constructionman," "Fireman," "Hospitalman," "Airman"...though I've found that most are good with "Seaman."
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

a2capt

I bet it did, too. Many times I've simply gone into a situation and laid it on the table, and shot right through that kind of attitude and the results are pretty much "improved", because both sides see they're serious and here to get the job done.

lordmonar

Quote from: a2capt on May 24, 2012, 05:58:47 PM
I bet it did, too. Many times I've simply gone into a situation and laid it on the table, and shot right through that kind of attitude and the results are pretty much "improved", because both sides see they're serious and here to get the job done.
Exactly.....I simpely explained that I was in the USAF and I meant no disrepect for calling her ma'am.  I then respectfuly explained my position that the "joke" was in poor taste, counter to good order and discipline and pressed on.

No different then correctining a superior on a uniform issue or any other thing that were doing "wrong".
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

bflynn

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 05:36:12 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.

Surprising...what did you say that turned it from the chief yelling at you into an improved relationship?  Or was she not really serious about it in the first place?

lordmonar

Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 05:36:12 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.

Surprising...what did you say that turned it from the chief yelling at you into an improved relationship?  Or was she not really serious about it in the first place?
I'm sorry Chief....in the the USAF ma'am is a term of respect.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

bflynn

Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 06:15:53 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 05:36:12 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 24, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
When I got yelled at as an USAF NCO by a Navy Chief for calling her "Ma'am" as if I was disrepecting her......I did not stand for it.

I'm curious - when you did not stand for it, did that improve or hamper your working relationship?
Improved it.

Surprising...what did you say that turned it from the chief yelling at you into an improved relationship?  Or was she not really serious about it in the first place?
I'm sorry Chief....in the the USAF ma'am is a term of respect.

Ok, I can see that that difuses it if the chief was half joking to start with.  It doesn't match the chiefs I've dealt with, but every person and situation is different.

RogueLeader

I always addressed an army e-9 as sergeant major.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

lordmonar

Quote from: RogueLeader on May 24, 2012, 06:22:18 PM
I always addressed an army e-9 as sergeant major.
And the Master Chief is always the Master Chief....and the USAF Chief is always Chief.

But those guys should not be jumping down your throat for saying Sir or Ma'am......not the first time you say it anyway.
And I am not talking about what your DI/MTI did to you at basic......they don't have time to deal with you like a living thinking human being.

It is not so much that they want to be called chief/sergeant/senior (which is the new thing sneaking into the USAF for E-8s).....by all mean if you want me to call you Grand Pooh Bah The Almighty.......I will follow your wishes....but attacking people for being respectful (even if it was 100% right....like calling a judge sir instead of "your honor") is counter productive.

And using the "I work for a living" line....simply reinforces the contempt for the officer corps...which again is against good order and discipline.

That's all I am saying.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 05:18:00 PMI've found that most are good with "Seaman."
Hey, now. DADT is in a different thread somewhere.... >:D

All this quibbling can be taken care of by avoiding the confusion of CAP urban legend and conflicting directives and going straight to AFI 34-1201, Protocol. From there, you'll find additional readings on the matter. Officers always get salutes. Enlisted personnel and cadets do not salute each other except under certain circumstances. And while you're reading that instruction, look at how many other helpful things you'll find that we just don't learn to use in CAP except from urban legend. There it all is, in black and white.

A sergeant is a sergeant is a sergeant. A chief is a chief, albeit still a sergeant. A cadet is a cadet. "Sir" and "ma'am" are terms you can use when you're at a loss for something else. How we wind up in long discussions about silly stuff like this, I don't know, but it shows there's an elemental problem with our training when we don't know how to react properly to noncomms.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

lordmonar

Well.....you are right.

How we get here is.....that the USAF does not read AFI 34-1201 nor a lot of the other regulations/instructions that "tell you how it is".

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

FlyTiger77

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 05:18:00 PM
The way I always learned it:

Commissioned officers: Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Lieutenant") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Warrant officers (which, of course, the USAF doesn't have and they look like lieutenants until you're close enough to see the little squares on their bars): Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Warrant Officer/Chief Warrant Officer" and/or "Mr/Ms/Miss Jones") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Senior NCO's, depending on service:

...

USA:
Command Sergeant Major - full title
Sergeant Major - full title {I rearranged the order for you}
First Sergeant - full title
Master Sergeant and below - full title first time, "Sergeant" thereafter.
Corporal and below - full title

...


My experience and practice differ. Also, a lot depends on who is senior to whom when the addressing occurs.

AR 600-20 dictates how Soldiers are to be addressed:

--More senior officers (to include warrant officers if you are junior to them) are addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am" as appropriate. I have never used his or her rank as a noun of address on first contact.
        (Among officers, it is most common for more senior officers to address more junior officers by their first name.)

When spoken to:
--Command Sergeants Major and Sergeants Major are addressed as "Sergeant Major"
--First Sergeants are addressed as such
--Sergeants through Master Sergeant are addressed as "Sergeant" (by regulation, although Master Sergeants more often than not insist on being called "Master Sergeant")
--Corporals are addressed as such
--Specialist and below are addressed by their last name more often than not

When speaking about a Soldier, full rank and last name are used, except for warrant officers where Mr./Mrs./Ms. is used in lieu of rank.

Example:

"Hey, Jones, the Sergeant First Class Smith wants to see you."

"Good afternoon, sergeant."
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

sardak

Quotebut attacking people for being respectful (even if it was 100% right....like calling a judge sir instead of "your honor") is counter productive.
Thanks for the opening.

Kaffee: I'm not through with my examination. Sit down.
Col. Jessep: Colonel!
Kaffee: What's that?
Col. Jessep: I would appreciate it if he would address me as "Colonel" or "Sir." I believe I've earned it.
Judge Randolph: Defense counsel will address the witness as "Colonel" or "Sir."
Col. Jessep: [to Judge] I don't know what the hell kind of unit you're running here.
Judge Randolph: And the witness will address this court as "Judge" or "Your Honor." I'm quite certain I've earned it. Take your seat, Colonel.

Mike

SARDOC

In the Army frequently the First Sergeant is also called "Top"

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2012, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 24, 2012, 12:31:04 PMInteresting - apparently the Air Force is the only branch that uses sir/ma'am as a form of address for NCOs.  In all the other branches, you'll get a butt chewing for doing that, probably along with a question about your parent's marital status.  Or at the very least, a "don't call me sir, I work for a living"...

Wives tales and too many movies.

Never happens.

Wrong answer. Maybe not these days, but it was very prevalent WIWOAD. USN, USMC, and USA.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

manfredvonrichthofen

You still hear it a lot.

In the 506, I had a really cool Sergeant Major, and he told us it takes too long to say Sergeant Major, unless a high officer was around from a different unit or from division were there, just call me smaj. Good guy.

But if your hazy on the title, and they are an NCO, throw out the full title, if they tell you otherwise, then go with it. It is much easier on you and the NCO.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: phirons on May 24, 2012, 12:48:00 AM
CAPP 151 covers the basics.

"Air Force and senior member non-commissioned officers and airmen are addressed by grade and last name (ie: Sergeant Levitow)."

While this does not cover the Technical Sergeant vs Sergeant the chart that follows does. There is an earlier reference that states it is always correct for a senior member to address a cadet as Cadet








ABBREV.GRADETERMS OF ADDRESS
C/SSgtCadet Staff SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/TSgtCadet Technical SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/MSgtCadet Master SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/SMSgtCadet Senior Master SergeantSergeant Cadet
C/CMSgtCadet Chief Master SergeantChief Cadet

The table continues to show we address First and Second Lieutenants as Lieutenant, etc.

With this information I think we can conclude the proper way to address a CAP NCO is Sergeant or Chief Last Name.

The OP was about how we address CAP NCOs. With some interpretation, CAPP 151 addresses this.  Where CAP publications address an issue we should follow them.

That said, I would make every attempt to address an active / reserve / guard NCO by the customs / regulations of their service. Now if I could ever get my head around the Navy enlisted structure....

Eclipse

Quote from: phirons on May 25, 2012, 01:13:46 PM
That said, I would make every attempt to address an active / reserve / guard NCO by the customs / regulations of their service. Now if I could ever get my head around the Navy enlisted structure...

Most are Petty Officers and Chiefs, though internally they like to refer to each other by their MOS.

How do you tell the difference between a Chief and a Senior Chief?

They will tell you...

"That Others May Zoom"