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Stolen Valor Confrontation

Started by C/SrA Ravlin, December 10, 2015, 08:18:06 PM

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C/SrA Ravlin

So this guy I saw the other day was wearing ABU's with ribbons (including the purple heart ribbon), wearing his cover indoors, and did not have his boots bloused. He was carrying a hand gun so I did not confront him about it other than having a general conversation with him about his "service" and asking if he had his CAC card on him, to which he responded "I left it at home." (For those of you who don't know a CAC card is, it is required to be carried on all active, select reserve, and DOD officials by the Geneva Convention). He said he had served 2 tours in Afghanistan and been in combat in both tours with the Delta Squad. How would you handle this safely? I have seen many videos where the phony has tried to fight the person confronting them.
I know this is a little off topic from CAP but please let me know how this should be handled.
Sincerely,
Cadet Ravlin   
Cadet SrA Ravlin
Cadet Communications NCO
Boise RMR-ID-073
"Semper Vigilans"
www.gocivilairpatrol.com
www.boisecap.org

Garibaldi

Quote from: C/A1C Ravlin on December 10, 2015, 08:18:06 PM
So this guy I saw the other day was wearing ABU's with ribbons (including the purple heart ribbon), wearing his cover indoors, and did not have his boots bloused. He was carrying a hand gun so I did not confront him about it other than having a general conversation with him about his "service" and asking if he had his CAC card on him, to which he responded "I left it at home." (For those of you who don't know a CAC card is, it is required to be carried on all active, select reserve, and DOD officials by the Geneva Convention). He said he had served 2 tours in Afghanistan and been in combat in both tours with the Delta Squad. How would you handle this safely? I have seen many videos where the phony has tried to fight the person confronting them.
I know this is a little off topic from CAP but please let me know how this should be handled.
Sincerely,
Cadet Ravlin

I would leave him to his delusions. It's not worth the danger to you, especially if he's carrying. Though, it could have been an airsoft gun. Let actual vets and AD deal with this guy. Chances are, he is deluded and acting out a fantasy. Delta Squad? Pfft. Go to http://thisainthell.us/blog/?page_id=30655

Then check out MSGT Soup Sandwich.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Flying Pig

There are serious psychological issues that accompany someone who acts this way.  Quite honestly unless someone is actively trying to gain access or deceive for some sort of real illegal gain its not even illegal in most cases.  At least not in the sense that anyone is getting cuffed and going to jail simply for walking around in a uniform telling stories.

In  your place as a cadet......  Best for you to steer clear.   Ive seen a couple people in the local mall who Ive seen in a set of Marine dress blues that were so botched it wasn't even a question and one in a set of USAF ABUs with USMC name tapes and a 2nd Marine Division patch on the sleeve in full color.  Im a vet, Im also a deputy sheriff.  I was off-duty.  In neither case did I feel the need to confront them or "call the cops".  In 99% of these situations you see people post on Youtube, people are taking their safety into their own hands confronting someone who is #1 trying to be deceptive and/or #2 has a serious delusion or psych situation that makes them dangerous.   I particularly cringe when I see people confront posers with their families present. 

In my time in the military I exposed a SEAL poser who was an Army E-8 in my reserve unit. Yes... he was an Army Reserve E8 who had been wearing a SEAL trident for years and getting promotion points and all.   A second Special Forces poser I put in jail for a long situation I don't feel like typing right now.  But he went to jail for ultimately lying to the judge about his service.   In both cases, both of these men lost a pretty much everything they had worked (lied) for.  That can and will make people dangerous. 

And in this case the guy was carrying a gun?  And you still chose to contact him knowing he was a liar?????   C'mon.  Be smarter than that. 

A.Member

I agree with Flying Pig. 

To dovetail on his comments, there's also been a number of serious cases of false stolen valor incidents in the news recently.  Ex. http://popularmilitary.com/vietnam-veteran-humiliated-and-assaulted-by-active-duty-marines/

The actions of some of the vets, such as those in the story above, bring even more disgrace to the uniform than so some of the posers. 

Another good read on the topic:
http://havokjournal.com/culture/stolen-valor-fratricide/

Look, the poser probably isn't really fooling many people.  In most cases it's probably best to shake your head and move along but as a cadet, you certainly have no place in calling out someone.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

abdsp51

Leave it to the pros to deal with this stuff. 

Also you should know that you have no legal grounds to ask to see anyone's CAC.  If you do not fall into specific categories a service member is under no obligation to present their CAC to anyone. 

Next time steer clear especially if the party is packing.

C/SrA Ravlin

Thanks for the replies. I will heed the advice.  As a person who would like to be in the Air Force the day I turn 18 it makes me angry to see people doing this. I appreciate the advice.
Sincerely,
Cadet Ravlin
Cadet SrA Ravlin
Cadet Communications NCO
Boise RMR-ID-073
"Semper Vigilans"
www.gocivilairpatrol.com
www.boisecap.org

abdsp51

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 10, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
Quote from: C/A1C Ravlin on December 10, 2015, 08:18:06 PM
So this guy I saw the other day was wearing ABU's with ribbons (including the purple heart ribbon), wearing his cover indoors, and did not have his boots bloused. He was carrying a hand gun so I did not confront him about it other than having a general conversation with him about his "service" and asking if he had his CAC card on him, to which he responded "I left it at home." (For those of you who don't know a CAC card is, it is required to be carried on all active, select reserve, and DOD officials by the Geneva Convention). He said he had served 2 tours in Afghanistan and been in combat in both tours with the Delta Squad. How would you handle this safely? I have seen many videos where the phony has tried to fight the person confronting them.
I know this is a little off topic from CAP but please let me know how this should be handled.
Sincerely,
Cadet Ravlin

I would leave him to his delusions. It's not worth the danger to you, especially if he's carrying. Though, it could have been an airsoft gun. Let actual vets and AD deal with this guy. Chances are, he is deluded and acting out a fantasy. Delta Squad? Pfft. Go to http://thisainthell.us/blog/?page_id=30655

Then check out MSGT Soup Sandwich.

Don't forget a poser who was part of our own org in VA.  Even after she was outed she kept going with her claims.

Live2Learn

Quote from: abdsp51 on December 11, 2015, 04:14:34 AM

Don't forget a poser who was part of our own org in VA.  Even after she was outed she kept going with her claims.

It's irritating, maybe distressing, maybe just amusing, maybe even fun when someone masquerades as a vet.  It may just be a manifestation of mental illness, insecurity, wishing they were someone/something they are not, or a backhanded way of saying vets deserve respect for their service.    If they wear the uniform and talk about their imaginary exploits IMHO, they can have at it.  It's just pretend.  For example, how many aircraft do we see, warbirds and other, with military markings?  I know a few guys who are very proud of their warbirds, yet aren't vets.   However, when the storyline gets blurred with reality (i.e. it's used to falsely claim some financial advantage) it crosses the line.  That's fraud.  How to address even that is pretty situational, IMHO.  But I can't think of a situation where individually confronting a wanna be would be the best approach.

Stonewall

We have dealt with some levels of stolen valor right here on CAP Talk.  Personally, I have dealt with a few bogus claims from Navy SEALs to Marine Snipers.  If someone simply says something that sounds off, I just nod my head and smile.  If someone is wearing something they didn't earn and its not hurting anyone, I'll probably cringe but not take action.

My issue comes when, like Flying Pig said, if someone is trying to use bogus qualifications, medals, or spew lies of service for personal gain, then I may intervene.  This includes potential CAP members who show up and start bragging about all of their special skills, but my fake-o-meter starts to ping. 

At the end of the day some people have low self-esteem and for some reason need the attention of others for things they didn't do or accomplish.
Serving since 1987.

THRAWN

Quote from: Stonewall on December 11, 2015, 12:19:19 PM
We have dealt with some levels of stolen valor right here on CAP Talk.  Personally, I have dealt with a few bogus claims from Navy SEALs to Marine Snipers.  If someone simply says something that sounds off, I just nod my head and smile.  If someone is wearing something they didn't earn and its not hurting anyone, I'll probably cringe but not take action.

My issue comes when, like Flying Pig said, if someone is trying to use bogus qualifications, medals, or spew lies of service for personal gain, then I may intervene.  This includes potential CAP members who show up and start bragging about all of their special skills, but my fake-o-meter starts to ping. 

At the end of the day some people have low self-esteem and for some reason need the attention of others for things they didn't do or accomplish.

Are you questioning me? During Operation Desert Nam, I was a sniper with the Army SEALs assigned to the 25th Marine Infantry Division. What did you do? Probably a cook or some other POG....(I actually know better, but you get the point...)

I was in line at Starbucks behind a guy wearing cammies that weren't quite right this past weekend. Just leave it at he walked out without his latte....
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Garibaldi

Quote from: THRAWN on December 11, 2015, 01:30:47 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on December 11, 2015, 12:19:19 PM
We have dealt with some levels of stolen valor right here on CAP Talk.  Personally, I have dealt with a few bogus claims from Navy SEALs to Marine Snipers.  If someone simply says something that sounds off, I just nod my head and smile.  If someone is wearing something they didn't earn and its not hurting anyone, I'll probably cringe but not take action.

My issue comes when, like Flying Pig said, if someone is trying to use bogus qualifications, medals, or spew lies of service for personal gain, then I may intervene.  This includes potential CAP members who show up and start bragging about all of their special skills, but my fake-o-meter starts to ping. 

At the end of the day some people have low self-esteem and for some reason need the attention of others for things they didn't do or accomplish.

Are you questioning me? During Operation Desert Nam, I was a sniper with the Army SEALs assigned to the 25th Marine Infantry Division. What did you do? Probably a cook or some other POG....(I actually know better, but you get the point...)

I was in line at Starbucks behind a guy wearing cammies that weren't quite right this past weekend. Just leave it at he walked out without his latte....

You were in Desert Nam too? I was in the 440th Infantry Regiment assigned to the Air Delta Force. I was in charge of the tactical nukes (don't let anyone tell you different; we had them in-theater and I saw them!). One night, this is no s___, a bunch of Iranians came onto our base at 0330 while everyone was asleep but me. I just happened to be walking around with my M-65 machine gun with 10,000 rounds of tracer ammo. I had some special night vision glasses that were still in the experimental phase and saw all them Pakistanis coming through the barb wire fence with knives in their teeth and dynamite strapped to their chests. Well, I don't have to tell you what explosives will do to a nuke, so I started blasting them, full auto, for like half an hour straight, no let up,  before my buddies finally figured out what was happening. By that  time, I had killed most of them, wounded about 300 and watched the remaining Indians run back through the barb wire...right into the minefield with command detonated bombs. I pulled the trigger on the detonator and BOOM! All the rest of them Iraqis went up in a sheet of flame. When we went out the next morning there was nothing but body parts and blood. I got a Medal of Honor, a Silver Star, and an Air Force Cross for that action, to go along with my Navy Cross for when I was attached to Seal Team 12, which was super-secret at the time since we were hunting bin Laden and we actually killed him but Seal  Team Six got all the credit.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Spam

No, you weren't. I have your record jacket at the unit:  Clerk Typist, 3C.   ;)

V/R,
Spam

THRAWN

Quote from: Spam on December 11, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
No, you weren't. I have your record jacket at the unit:  Clerk Typist, 3C.   ;)

V/R,
Spam

That's G14 classified....you can't spout that without using an approved cone of silence...
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Garibaldi

Quote from: THRAWN on December 11, 2015, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: Spam on December 11, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
No, you weren't. I have your record jacket at the unit:  Clerk Typist, 3C.   ;)

V/R,
Spam

That's G14 classified....you can't spout that without using an approved cone of silence...

My actual personnel file won't be declassified until 2025 at the earliest. This is what they put in as cover for my covert operations with Delta Force. I actually was a GLG-20 operative working for the DIA/CIA, tracking down a Soviet-era ICBM in Afghanistan. Along with my partner, Emmet Fitz-Hume (not his real name) and another operative named Karen Boyer, we found the missile and destroyed it, while repelling a Spetznaz team made up of KGB and GRU officers.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Flying Pig

I have my Service Records that reflect a relatively uneventful but fun 7 years spent in the infantry in both the Marines and the Army.   But at CIA Headquarters in Oklahoma City, they maintain my classified file that nobody has access to.  But Im still allowed to wear the medals that are noted in my CIA file.   Thats why they dont show on my DD214.  All I can do is ask that you trust me. 




>:D

THRAWN

Quote from: Flying Pig on December 11, 2015, 02:22:16 PM
I have my Service Records that reflect a relatively uneventful but fun 7 years spent in the infantry in both the Marines and the Army.   But at CIA Headquarters in Oklahoma City, they maintain my classified file that nobody has access to.  But Im still allowed to wear the medals that are noted in my CIA file.   Thats why they dont show on my DD214.  All I can do is ask that you trust me. 




>:D

At least you have records. All of mine were destroyed when Fort Knox was burned. Luckily, I found some images of the certificates that I knew were in my file and was able to replicate my record. The Spanish American War rages on...
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Spam

Doctor, Doctor, aaaannnnd... Doctor!

When the original Cadet Protection screening/fingerprinting came out in 1988, we lost a good chunk of members who refused to be fingerprinted (which is OK, really). Two of them were the then-Commander of the Patrick AFB, FL Squadron and his wife, who had regaled us all with stories of his flying F-4s in Nam. Desk model of an F-4 on a stick. Fake photos, fake unit flags, wall hangings, etc. Three or four months later, the base SPs questioned CAP as to why he was using base facilities in our name to try to start up a separate local youth SAR battalion... a USAF agent led investigation ensued... turned out he was a one enlistment E-3 (at discharge) in the early '70s who was neither an officer, nor in any way associated with F-4s let alone a pilot, nor even did he deploy OCONUS to Nam or anywhere else, and was fraudulently claiming affiliation with several DoD related agencies/support groups (such as CAP). They ended up nabbing him for several bad things, as I recall.

Offered for consideration for those who might feel that our screening/verification/training program or the requirement for a Membership Committee is overblown. I don't think so at all.

V/R
Spam


JeffDG

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 02:18:50 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 11, 2015, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: Spam on December 11, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
No, you weren't. I have your record jacket at the unit:  Clerk Typist, 3C.   ;)

V/R,
Spam

That's G14 classified....you can't spout that without using an approved cone of silence...

My actual personnel file won't be declassified until 2025 at the earliest. This is what they put in as cover for my covert operations with Delta Force. I actually was a GLG-20 operative working for the DIA/CIA, tracking down a Soviet-era ICBM in Afghanistan. Along with my partner, Emmet Fitz-Hume (not his real name) and another operative named Karen Boyer, we found the missile and destroyed it, while repelling a Spetznaz team made up of KGB and GRU officers.

Doctor?

THRAWN

Quote from: Spam on December 11, 2015, 02:27:13 PM
Doctor, Doctor, aaaannnnd... Doctor!

When the original Cadet Protection screening/fingerprinting came out in 1988, we lost a good chunk of members who refused to be fingerprinted (which is OK, really). Two of them were the then-Commander of the Patrick AFB, FL Squadron and his wife, who had regaled us all with stories of his flying F-4s in Nam. Desk model of an F-4 on a stick. Fake photos, fake unit flags, wall hangings, etc. Three or four months later, the base SPs questioned CAP as to why he was using base facilities in our name to try to start up a separate local youth SAR battalion... a USAF agent led investigation ensued... turned out he was a one enlistment E-3 (at discharge) in the early '70s who was neither an officer, nor in any way associated with F-4s let alone a pilot, nor even did he deploy OCONUS to Nam or anywhere else, and was fraudulently claiming affiliation with several DoD related agencies/support groups (such as CAP). They ended up nabbing him for several bad things, as I recall.

Offered for consideration for those who might feel that our screening/verification/training program or the requirement for a Membership Committee is overblown. I don't think so at all.

V/R
Spam

Happens a lot. Had a smooth talking jive cat flap his gums about his SF quals, and how he would be a great GSAR instructor and how we were doing things all wrong. Presented a stack of copies of certificates from the "US Army Infintry Base". He didn't last long.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Garibaldi

Quote from: JeffDG on December 11, 2015, 02:27:40 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 02:18:50 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 11, 2015, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: Spam on December 11, 2015, 02:02:34 PM
No, you weren't. I have your record jacket at the unit:  Clerk Typist, 3C.   ;)

V/R,
Spam

That's G14 classified....you can't spout that without using an approved cone of silence...

My actual personnel file won't be declassified until 2025 at the earliest. This is what they put in as cover for my covert operations with Delta Force. I actually was a GLG-20 operative working for the DIA/CIA, tracking down a Soviet-era ICBM in Afghanistan. Along with my partner, Emmet Fitz-Hume (not his real name) and another operative named Karen Boyer, we found the missile and destroyed it, while repelling a Spetznaz team made up of KGB and GRU officers.

Doctor?

Spies Like Us  :-X
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

C/SrA Ravlin

I might add that said person who I encountered again yesterday was trying to get a military discount at stores wearing a Marine uniform. He had a combat patch plus a purple heart and the Nay Seal Trident on his person. This guy is trying to take away from our soldiers what they deserve! Can you call the police for this or not? Because if so the next time I see this guy, packing or not, I will be calling the police and having a chat. Now that said I know that as a cadet it is not my job to be the Stolen Valor Police but as a citizen of the U.S. it is. I don't believe in standing by and watching this man disgrace the uniform. Not to throw away what any of you have said about this but this is a federal crime and he cannot continue doing this. 
Cadet SrA Ravlin
Cadet Communications NCO
Boise RMR-ID-073
"Semper Vigilans"
www.gocivilairpatrol.com
www.boisecap.org

Garibaldi

Quote from: C/A1C Ravlin on December 11, 2015, 05:30:37 PM
I might add that said person who I encountered again yesterday was trying to get a military discount at stores wearing a Marine uniform. He had a combat patch plus a purple heart and the Nay Seal Trident on his person. This guy is trying to take away from our soldiers what they deserve! Can you call the police for this or not? Because if so the next time I see this guy, packing or not, I will be calling the police and having a chat. Now that said I know that as a cadet it is not my job to be the Stolen Valor Police but as a citizen of the U.S. it is. I don't believe in standing by and watching this man disgrace the uniform. Not to throw away what any of you have said about this but this is a federal crime and he cannot continue doing this.

He's really only trying to defraud the company he's making a purchase from. Here at Home Depot, we have a 10% discount for active and retired military, but we require that they show ID. Our cashiers are taught what a real ID looks like, for the most part. We took away the online discount for this very reason, that we were taking too many peoples' word that they were a vet when we couldn't verify it. Most people were OK with it when we told them why, but a few raised all kinds of heck about it. Those were the ones using it fraudulently.

Let it go, kid. If anything, you can tell the store about it, and let them pursue it.

Now, if he were claiming to be a vet or AD and trying to take money for something THEN I'd consider calling the cops. THAT is a federal crime.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

goblin


Storm Chaser

Quote from: C/A1C Ravlin on December 10, 2015, 08:18:06 PM
So this guy I saw the other day was wearing ABU's with ribbons (including the purple heart ribbon), wearing his cover indoors, and did not have his boots bloused. He was carrying a hand gun so I did not confront him about it other than having a general conversation with him about his "service" and asking if he had his CAC card on him, to which he responded "I left it at home." (For those of you who don't know a CAC card is, it is required to be carried on all active, select reserve, and DOD officials by the Geneva Convention). He said he had served 2 tours in Afghanistan and been in combat in both tours with the Delta Squad. How would you handle this safely? I have seen many videos where the phony has tried to fight the person confronting them.
I know this is a little off topic from CAP but please let me know how this should be handled.
Sincerely,
Cadet Ravlin

The short answer is you don't. You should stay away from anyone carrying a weapon who doesn't seem to be all there. If you think your life or anyone else's is in danger, then call the police or 911.

PHall


TheSkyHornet

I think you handled it appropriately based on what you described; although, I didn't catch how the conversation ended and you both carried on.

Sometimes you do need to take a deep breath and just move on. It's not the job of civilians to enforce the law, especially military law, even when we know there's a problem and want to do what's right.

Don't put yourself into a situation that has the potential to become unsafe.

Garibaldi

It's not that we don't care. I personally would like to rip all the posers a new one and ship them off to a combat zone with a pickle and a salad fork, but it's just not worth it.

Let it go, youngling.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Flying Pig

Quote from: PHall on December 11, 2015, 06:54:32 PM
Cadet Ravlin. Give it a rest.

^^^Yes.   


That being said, it is not your "job" as a US Citizen.   You need to move on. 

SkywalkerRA

I echo the comments here...while it's noble of you to want to defend the integrity of those who've really served our nation, this doesn't sound like the hill you want to "die on." I've found that life has a way of taking care of these things in the long run.

C/SrA Ravlin

Cadet SrA Ravlin
Cadet Communications NCO
Boise RMR-ID-073
"Semper Vigilans"
www.gocivilairpatrol.com
www.boisecap.org

Live2Learn

Quote from: C/A1C Ravlin on December 11, 2015, 05:30:37 PM
I might add that said person who I encountered again yesterday was trying to get a military discount at stores wearing a Marine uniform. He had a combat patch plus a purple heart and the Nay Seal Trident on his person. This guy is trying to take away from our soldiers what they deserve! Can you call the police for this or not? Because if so the next time I see this guy, packing or not, I will be calling the police and having a chat. Now that said I know that as a cadet it is not my job to be the Stolen Valor Police but as a citizen of the U.S. it is. I don't believe in standing by and watching this man disgrace the uniform. Not to throw away what any of you have said about this but this is a federal crime and he cannot continue doing this.

Let the store 'loss protection' folk do their duty.  If past military a VA id card, retired military id card, or active card is required.  As far as I know, that's true whether in dress blues or scrubs. I personally very much appreciate your care, and the respect you offer to those who have served.  IMHO, a word to the store manager suggesting better 'loss protection' training if the fraud is successful, or if nipped (as it should be) by an alert employee, a word of commendation to both employee AND the manager might be a very good tactic. 

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: C/A1C Ravlin on December 12, 2015, 03:08:52 AM
Yes Sir's. I appreciate the help.

*Gentlemen (and there may be a female on here...hard to tell with usernames and mustaches  ;))

xray328

Google Don Shipley or look on YouTube for buds131...

vorteks


Flying Pig

#34
Quote from: varitec on December 15, 2015, 02:29:02 PM
Quote from: xray328 on December 15, 2015, 01:11:30 PM
Google Don Shipley or look on YouTube for buds131...

Why?
Because the guy he is confronting is a CAP member.

xray328


Flying Pig

James Decker.  We did have a  member on here who was a group commander who was outted as a fake SEAL here on CAPTalk.  I think he has since resigned from CAP.  I dont know if this is the same guy. 

xray328

#37

umpirecali

If he were applying for membership then the personnel officer should probe a bit further.  We had a member in our squadron who had served in the AF but was wearing a silver star and some campaign ribbons he didn't earn.  It began as someone noticing his SS and asked how he got it.  The story didn't pass muster and our CC requested his records.  When confronted with the info, he stuck to his story.  He was swiftly reported to national and kicked out.    As a matter of course now, when a person applies for membership and they claim prior service, we ask for their DD-214.
Capt Chris Cali, CAP
Deputy Commander
Deputy Commander for Cadets

mtb1998

You may not be able to do anything. I believe our current president signed into law in 2013 that wearing a uniform with no prior service isn't illegal, but lying about it for benefits is.

JeffDG

Quote from: mtb1998 on March 10, 2016, 08:33:15 PM
You may not be able to do anything. I believe our current president signed into law in 2013 that wearing a uniform with no prior service isn't illegal, but lying about it for benefits is.
That's not how it happened.

The Stolen Valor Act was challenged in court.  The Supreme Court ruled that lying is a protected under the 1st Amendment, and as such, the law was not valid.  Lying for fraudulent reasons (ie. to seek monetary benefit) can be criminalized, however, just puffing your chest out cannot be made a crime.

That said, as in almost all Free Speech issues, the way to counter "bad speech" (lying about accomplishments) is with "good speech" (ie. calling them on it).  CAP is a private organization, and we as an organization have every right to apply our disciplinary procedures (ie 2B) to someone who has lied as we deem appropriate, as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only.

Flying Pig

.........and 99.9% of the time, its best to just laugh and walk away if you run into these people in public.  Seriously, if you don't have anything to do with it, if the person is just bragging... move on.  I don't normally advocate "not doing anything" but most of the time these people are either dealing with mental issues or just looking for attention.

AirAux

JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.

JeffDG

Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM
JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

Stolen Valor would certainly be, in my opinion, a serious violation of our core value of integrity, and CAP is entirely entitled to remove such an individual from our membership rolls.

AirAux

Considering that the Supreme Court classifies it as free speech, I think we would be treading on thin ice.  At one time, homosexuality was considered immoral, but because of the Supreme Court and legislation, we can not throw anyone out for immorality anymore.  I would suggest the same applies to stolen valor and flag desecration, would it not??

vorteks

Nope, not analogous. "Morality" is not a core value. Stolen valor and flag desecration are matters of integrity and respect.

RogueLeader

The government can not do anything as it is free speech.  As CAP is a Private Organization, we can and do make members non-members.  I could (I won't) call me Wing/CC a bunch of names so on and so forth ( it might even be true), and he would be right to through me out of CAP for insubordination.  Same thing if someone did that to me.

We most certainly can kick people out for lying about what they have done, as it goes against our Core Values.  Depending on the severity of the issue, we certainly should.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

lordmonar

Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 10:19:43 PM
Considering that the Supreme Court classifies it as free speech, I think we would be treading on thin ice.  At one time, homosexuality was considered immoral, but because of the Supreme Court and legislation, we can not throw anyone out for immorality anymore.  I would suggest the same applies to stolen valor and flag desecration, would it not??
A)  Yes we can still throw people our for immorality......actually it is termed Moral Turpitude.
B)  While free speech is protected by the 1st Amendment....CAP is not bound by it....if you call your commander a Dip Sh*t, even if true, you can be punished for it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 10:19:43 PM
Considering that the Supreme Court classifies it as free speech, I think we would be treading on thin ice.  At one time, homosexuality was considered immoral, but because of the Supreme Court and legislation, we can not throw anyone out for immorality anymore.  I would suggest the same applies to stolen valor and flag desecration, would it not??
Because the SC defines it as free speech, the GOVERNMENT cannot punish you for it.  CAP is a private organization and most certainly can.

Take another example:

You walk into an FBI office and call the SAC a lying sack of excrement.  He cannot arrest you for doing so at all.  It's a freedom of speech issue, and the FBI cannot punish (arrest) you for exercising your right to free speech, regardless of how abhorrent it is.

Walk into your squadron commander's office and say the same thing, and you can be 2B's before you get out of the room.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: JeffDG on March 10, 2016, 09:50:12 PM
Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM
JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

How about being an instrumentality of the United States?

;D

lordmonar

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 11, 2016, 12:40:59 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 10, 2016, 09:50:12 PM
Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM
JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

How about being an instrumentality of the United States?

;D
So...on AFAMs we can't discriminate....:)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 11, 2016, 12:40:59 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 10, 2016, 09:50:12 PM
Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM
JeffDG, I am confused in what you mean by, "as the 1st Amendment applies to governments only."  Are you saying that it would not apply to CAP if we tried to punish someone for stolen valor?  CAP falls under the Air Force, which in itself is a Federal entity.  I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.  I may have mistaken your statement.
CAP is a private corporate entity.  The fact that we receive federal funding does not make us a government entity.

How about being an instrumentality of the United States?

;D
Well, I guess, if you do it WHILE in the middle of an AFAM, then they would need to wait until signed out of the AFAM and back to being a regular corporation.

raivo

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 10, 2016, 09:07:45 PM
.........and 99.9% of the time, its best to just laugh and walk away if you run into these people in public.  Seriously, if you don't have anything to do with it, if the person is just bragging... move on.  I don't normally advocate "not doing anything" but most of the time these people are either dealing with mental issues or just looking for attention.

Agreed. The indignation over "stolen valor" borders on self-righteousness at times... and occasionally the people getting called out for it, are being falsely accused.

CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

Flying Pig

Lying about your record can very much determine what happens to you as a CAP member, as well as any other organization.  It has nothing to do with free speech.  As far as raivos comment, yes, many of the stolen valor videos you watch, I almost find the people doing the confronting more irritating than the foolio wearing the fake medals.  And often times, a slight amount of situational awareness would tell you the person wearing the medals isnt "all there".  There is one recently where its pretty obvious the "suspect" has some serious disabilities, but the person making the video just keeps going and going and going.

PHall

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 11, 2016, 11:48:56 AM
Lying about your record can very much determine what happens to you as a CAP member, as well as any other organization.  It has nothing to do with free speech.  As far as raivos comment, yes, many of the stolen valor videos you watch, I almost find the people doing the confronting more irritating than the foolio wearing the fake medals.  And often times, a slight amount of situational awareness would tell you the person wearing the medals isnt "all there".  There is one recently where its pretty obvious the "suspect" has some serious disabilities, but the person making the video just keeps going and going and going.

Probably because the guy was an easy mark who wouldn't fight back. Cowards like that.

USACAP

Wait, what?
I would not serve along side anyone lying about their service.
Absolutely not.

Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM
I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.

PHall

Quote from: USACAP on March 11, 2016, 11:04:25 PM
Wait, what?
I would not serve along side anyone lying about their service.
Absolutely not.

Quote from: AirAux on March 10, 2016, 09:28:22 PM
I would not advise anyone in CAP to 2B or otherwise punish someone for stolen valor.

Then you better resign your CAP membership then. Because they're out there... >:D

ALORD

As a licensed P.I., I have a branch office in Southern California ( Managed and owned by my brothers) They conduct pre-employment screening, which for legal reasons, is called "application verification"  The Fair Credit Reporting Act complicates this kind of thing, and a work product that is deemed as a "Consumer Report" allows the subject access. Some Agencies require a Licensed P.I. to conduct background checks far in excess of "application verification" ( Officers of Banks, Bonded personnel, etc) Overwhelmingly, in my experience the fraudulent applicant will identify as a former SEAL. I guess if you are going to tell a self-aggrandizing lie, go for the gold. Counterfeit DD214's are available on the Internet, and getting verifications of anyone's military history can be a challenge. Fortunately, every Special Operation Group will have particular information that an imposter will not have an answer for: ( Who was your BUDS swim buddy? What was your Ranger Class number, what was that SMG Charlie Sheen had in "Navy Seals"...okay, I made that last one up...) I have found that many Elite Unit Org's will maintain files on known pretenders, and a couple of phone calls to the group can tell you if a person is a problem child. Every single one I  have encountered has been mentally ill, not conducting fraud for profit, although I know that they exist too. Harder to disprove in alleged military members attached to an organization is non-qualified support staff. Even Ninjas needs someone who can fill out forms properly, and a person saying " I was attached to the ( fill in the blank) Ranger Battalion may not exactly be lying; just spinning the truth. One SEAL suggested if in doubt, try to snatch a suspicious SEAL's Budweiser. If you wake up with your arm missing, it may have been a real special operator! Some of these people can be very dangerous to confront, and its an argument you can't really win. Turn them over to their respective used-to-be clubs and they will handle it about as well as it can be handled.

Flying Pig

The JFK Special Warfare Center maintains a decent data base as well.  And if anyone tells you that you'll never find a record of their training, just laugh.  I was doing a criminal investigation and was able to call the JFK Special Warfare Center as well as Navy dive school in Pensacola and Key West and over the phone they verified the person had never attended.  If being a special forces guy was a secret, they wouldn't wear badges and patches.  And especially beware if a pilot tells you he was trained independent from a traditional military flight school.

Garibaldi

I've heard it said that those who really have BTDT don't need to advertise.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Flying Pig

I don't know about that really.  I know plenty of real deal people who talk about it all the time. They aren't in peoples faces but it doesn't take much to find them. 

PHall

Quote from: Garibaldi on March 12, 2016, 05:53:46 PM
I've heard it said that those who really have BTDT don't need to advertise.

There's a reason they call them "Quiet Professionals". They keep their mouths shut...