Has anybody used stabilized oxygen as a water purifier? I've been looking for something that I can use to purify the water in my Camelbak for long time storage (months), won't eat the plastic, is tasteless, and will also work as a purifier in the field. It seems to fit the bill nicely but its dual advertised as a water purifier and health supplement, the later of which is shrouded in quackery. The science behind its purification abilities seems sketchy but logical. Anybody have experience with it?
Why would you need to store water in the pack for months?
Umm...you know that you shouldn't store water in it for months at a time, right?
Quote from: Eclipse on February 04, 2010, 06:41:24 AM
Why would you need to store water in the pack for months?
The ops tempo is slow in WI and it doesn't get much turnaround. Keep in mind, I want it for field purification too.
Quote from: JC004 on February 04, 2010, 06:45:27 AM
Umm...you know that you shouldn't store water in it for months at a time, right?
If its pure it wouldn't be an issue.
I should note that I do rotate the water every few months. Its when I need it for a mission half way between rotations that I'm concerned about it.
Bacteria is the issue. Also, algae will build up in it. Your CamelBak would need to be sterilized and sealed air-tight. Even if you could accomplish this, it is not worth the effort. Either fill it before the mission or carry bottles of unopened water equivalent to the capacity of the CamelBak and fill it in the car.
Look for other ways to save time instead. As I said, you can do bottled water if you do not want to take the time to fill it before you leave. But here are some things that I do:
- Keep all mission gear in a large plastic container, sealed, marked, and not buried under crap. If there are things that you would take that you cannot afford to have dedicated to your mission kit (laptop, GPS, etc.), keep a list of those things in the box on top so that you can grab them and not forget them.
- Hang your completed uniform (pants, shirt). In a plastic bag with that uniform, place your necessary accessories - a pair of socks, authorized shirt (black/brown), BDU belt, hat, etc. That way, all you need is your bag and the contents of your box. The bagged items are cheap enough that you can keep them for missions ONLY and use another set for regular CAP activities
- Regularly check the status of your equipment and make sure that it is ready. Make sure food items aren't past the expiration date, etc. Make sure that you have all the little extras like extra batteries so you won't have to look for anything or buy anything on the way.
Do not, however, compromise your health/safety by trying to cut corners with things that go into your mouth. That would be like leaving all your granola bars unwrapped in your pack to save the time of unwrapping them.
Your camelbak is for times when you're going to be in the field for extended amounts of time. Given the way our missions flow, the chances of you getting a call out and going directly to the field for extended amounts of time is so low it isn't worth going through the hassle of keeping water in your gear.
Besides, your team leader is responsible for ensuring water is available. It's even listed in the task guide.
In the case of potable water.....there is no need to keep a go pack at that level of readiness.
If you really need to do it....then you should develope a routine of switching out the water atleast weekly.
Anything else and you are looking at getting a nasty case of food poisoning.
As mentioned, if you're that concerned, throw a $5 case of bottled water in with the rest of your gear.
We don't slide down a fire pole and roll on an 5 minutes notice. Even the most aggressive deployed mission I've ever been on
(2 hours notice to KY for a week) left plenty of time enroute for water and other supplies, and those missions are pretty rare.
Usually you can grab water and other needed items at the gas station when you tank up.
I have been on many missions and the least amount of time of notification I have had is 2hrs. So just keep your camel back clean (if you really want to use it) or canteen, etc. and just fill it up before you go. I mean it takes what maybe 5mins. to fill them up? If you really want to, just keep bottel water in your kitchen somewhere and use that, it all has the same effect. dont keep water stuck in a camel back or canteen over a long period of time, you will get really really sick :-[ if you use it...
Bottled water has expiration dates too. Just clean your camelback or canteen and dry it out after use. Fill it at the kitchen sink on the way out the door.
Quote from: Al Sayre on February 04, 2010, 05:51:31 PM
Bottled water has expiration dates too. Just clean your camelback or canteen and dry it out after use. Fill it at the kitchen sink on the way out the door.
From: U.S. Food and Drug Administration (http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/Product-SpecificInformation/BottledWaterCarbonatedSoftDrinks/ucm077079.htm):
What is the shelf life for bottled water?
Bottled water is considered to have an indefinite safety shelf life if it is produced in accordance with CGMP and quality standard regulations and is stored in an unopened, properly sealed container. Therefore, FDA does not require an expiration date for bottled water. However, long-term storage of bottled water may result in aesthetic defects, such as off-odor and taste. Bottlers may voluntarily put expiration dates on their labels.
The FDA doesn't require a date, but most bottles have them anyway - usually about a year or so.
Interestingly there have been studies recently that show most tap water is cleaner than bottled (though when the tap is
dry because of a disaster, that doesn't mean much).
Quote from: ketseyowyow on February 04, 2010, 05:47:48 PM
I have been on many missions and the least amount of time of notification I have had is 2hrs. So just keep your camel back clean (if you really want to use it) or canteen, etc. and just fill it up before you go. I mean it takes what maybe 5mins. to fill them up?
More like one minute--or less.
Cheaper, easier and faster than purifying it.
^^^^^^^^
Rotorhead lives at 6000 ft in Colorado Springs. There is no oxygen there, stabilized or otherwise... so you can take the advice of a chronically hypoxic man or not. Signed - Rotorhead's former squadron mate and friend.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 04, 2010, 04:39:19 PM
In the case of potable water.....there is no need to keep a go pack at that level of readiness.
If you really need to do it....then you should develope a routine of switching out the water atleast weekly.
Anything else and you are looking at getting a nasty case of food poisoning.
Food poisoning to put it mildy. There's the possibility of taking in black mold or black mold spores, bacteria that could cause pneumonia and other respiratory infections. Just a bad idea to store potable water in a contained that is not perfectly air tight when sealed.
I just cant imagine a mission (though Im still an outsider) where the need for speed would be so great that one couldnt stop and fill you camelbak with tap or bottled water.
Imagine the loss of all civic water sources! Earthquakes, floods, war, civil insurrection, hurricanes, terrorism, industrial accidents, these could all require an emergency assignment without tap water available. Some of these events are predictable and some are not. FEMA keeps emergency water supplies ready. FEMA Mission bases are stocked, although delivery can be delayed.
TO some this may sound crazy but I've done it more than once: I fill up a bath tub full of water - when predictable events are approaching. So, I've got 40 gallons of tap water ready incase the city water fails. I figure if this is bleached I've got a minimum of 2 to 3 weeks before I'd need resupply. This is slightly off topic... but an idea along the same line.
The topic of this thread has nothing to do with what any of you are talking about. I asked if anyone had used a particular product, not about the need or non-need of it.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on February 11, 2010, 06:57:37 PM
The topic of this thread has nothing to do with what any of you are talking about. I asked if anyone had used a particular product, not about the need or non-need of it.
It is on topic because you stated why you want to use it and we're saying that it's a profoundly bad idea to use it in that manner because it could kill you.
It's essentially quackary. There's no such thing as "stablized" oxygen. It's either O2 or not O2. Even if you were to bubble 100% O2 through the water, it would diffuse out. Sustained exposure would probably start to break down the bladder polymer anyway.
I would just clean and dry it per the cleaning instructions and keep a couple of water bottles handy.
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on February 11, 2010, 06:57:37 PM
The topic of this thread has nothing to do with what any of you are talking about. I asked if anyone had used a particular product, not about the need or non-need of it.
Nobody's used it because we don't fill our camel-backs until we actually need to...
^ If you have not yet deployed to Iraqistan, I can see where you are coming from.
Me.....I can see purposes of letting water sit until ready for use.
I can even think of a few in CAP, and in life in general. We all take fresh and clean water for granted. What would happen when the water turns off, and you finish drinking what was left in your toilet tank??
Look on-line for articles about pipes freezing for days, homes cutoff from everything and emergency assistance unable to get to everyone.
In CAP we only have to go back 5 years to Katrina to see what happens when water is unavailable. We had to take our own water in, along with most other responders. Look at Haiti if you need something more recent.
When I saw the post about "Stabilized Oxygen" I thought the point was that someone was trying to sterilize water with Ozone or Hydrogen Peroxide. It turns out, its much, much, worse than that. The Holistic Medicine wack-wacks are trying to foist their liquid snake oil as "containing electrolytes of oxygen" and that disease is often caused by "oxygen deprivation" which can be miraculously cured by this secret formula that has double secret levels of free oxygen in it that we absorb by.....drinking? Now I admit that Organic Chem made me cry and scream like a little girl, but this is such a patent crock of stuff that its hard to believe that the people who sell it have not been nabbed by the FDA for false marketing claims...oh wait, never mind, they have! I think its great that you want to have a go-bag so you can deploy on 5 seconds notice ( hey, whole generations grew up watching "Red Dawn" so I totally get it) but if you think you need to deploy so fast that you can't take care of a basic need like water, its time to take a deep breath before running out the door.
Major Lord
Quote from: Spike on February 13, 2010, 09:09:22 PM
^ If you have not yet deployed to Iraqistan, I can see where you are coming from.
Me.....I can see purposes of letting water sit until ready for use.
I can even think of a few in CAP, and in life in general. We all take fresh and clean water for granted. What would happen when the water turns off, and you finish drinking what was left in your toilet tank??
Look on-line for articles about pipes freezing for days, homes cutoff from everything and emergency assistance unable to get to everyone.
In CAP we only have to go back 5 years to Katrina to see what happens when water is unavailable. We had to take our own water in, along with most other responders. Look at Haiti if you need something more recent.
This is true, but the original post was in the context of ES missions... there's no point in keeping your camel-back filled as part of your ES mission preparation - it takes what, 20 seconds to fill it?
On the subject of emergency water supplies, well, there's better things to store it in than camel-backs. :P
Alright, I think its only polite that I respond in my own thread.
Quote from: Major Lord on February 14, 2010, 02:01:11 AM
When I saw the post about "Stabilized Oxygen" I thought the point was that someone was trying to sterilize water with Ozone or Hydrogen Peroxide. It turns out, its much, much, worse than that. The Holistic Medicine wack-wacks are trying to foist their liquid snake oil as "containing electrolytes of oxygen" and that disease is often caused by "oxygen deprivation" which can be miraculously cured by this secret formula that has double secret levels of free oxygen in it that we absorb by.....drinking? Now I admit that Organic Chem made me cry and scream like a little girl, but this is such a patent crock of stuff that its hard to believe that the people who sell it have not been nabbed by the FDA for false marketing claims...oh wait, never mind, they have!
That's pretty much what I had figured. It seemed pretty sketchy and I just wanted to get feedback from elsewhere before I ruled it out.
As for purifying in the field, I do truly think its appropriate to have some form of purifier in my gear. If I run out of water in the field (and I have) and other sources aren't available (see Smithsonia's last post) I want a way to be able to use what water is available to keep hydrated. Maybe its the Boy Scout in my, but I like to be prepared. If I end up never needing it, its only my loss.
I thought that's what those little purifying tablets, hand pump filters, and fire were for. There are a myriad of ways to purify water that work and are easily transportable.
Also, the only time I have ever needed to purify water was on a bivouac, we'd planned for it, and had a filter to get clean water for everyone. Of course, I also could have just tilted my head up and drank from the sky as it fell, it was raining so hard on that particular bivouac.
In Florida, the dubious "benefit" of life is that we keep hurricane supplies on hand - food, water, etc, all in containers, ready to be loaded into the vehicle to bug out.
If I have a mission and need water, I simply grab some water from the HurrKit and fill my camelback. After the mission, I stop by the store and replenish what was used.
After hurricane season, the kit gets opened and anything that has an expiration date in the next 12 months gets put in the cupboard and eaten -- or tossed into a pack for a SAREX or other training, or maybe a UDF mission.
For purposes of purifying water in the field, I have an ultraviolet purifier that apparently works well.
QuoteThat's pretty much what I had figured. It seemed pretty sketchy and I just wanted to get feedback from elsewhere before I ruled it out.
As for purifying in the field, I do truly think its appropriate to have some form of purifier in my gear. If I run out of water in the field (and I have) and other sources aren't available (see Smithsonia's last post) I want a way to be able to use what water is available to keep hydrated. Maybe its the Boy Scout in my, but I like to be prepared. If I end up never needing it, its only my loss.
Wolverines!
When I was in the boy scouts we just boiled the water dude. Sometimes we used these too.
http://www.campmor.com/katadyn-micropur-purification-tablets.shtml?source=PLA&cm_mmc=PLA-_-Google%20Product%20Listing%20Ads%20-%20Experiment%2007-_-Primary-_- (http://www.campmor.com/katadyn-micropur-purification-tablets.shtml?source=PLA&cm_mmc=PLA-_-Google%20Product%20Listing%20Ads%20-%20Experiment%2007-_-Primary-_-)
I think you might be overthinking it.
Depending on where you are getting your water, you can purify it using bleach. A gallon should last you several years. For example, if you have water standing unused in a tank for a long time (pretty nasty...), 1 teaspoon of bleach will purify 5 gallons, 1 pint of bleach for 1000 gal's of water. That means you can purify 8000 gallons of pretty nasty water with 1 gallon of bleach. It may not taste great, but it will keep you alive, and it's really cheap. Growing up in FL, it was pretty standard when a hurricane was coming to fill up every container available and put a few drops of bleach in to kill any gag-nasties, so I always have at least 1 gallon on hand at the house. You can find quite a few articles from reputable sources on purifying water with bleach on the interweb thingy...
I know your thread has drifted pretty far off course ( as they tend to do) but, just in case someone read these posts and considered adding chlorine bleach to their Camel Back, let me assure you this is a really bad idea. Filter and sterilize your water before you add it to the Camel Back. Since we are in a discussion of water, I also suggest that you don't accept someones word that water is fit to drink. I drank bad water in the Hurricane Katrina AO that was supposedly purified, and picked up a parasitic and bacterial infection that migrated to a more serious disease that will eventually kill me ( unless an angry CAP Talker kills me first, or I get hit by a truck) So you are taking your life in your hands when you drink water in a disaster area, and the only one finally responsible for your safety is you.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on February 14, 2010, 08:10:22 PM
I drank bad water in the Hurricane Katrina AO that was supposedly purified, and picked up a parasitic and bacterial infection that migrated to a more serious disease that will eventually kill me
?? Can you name the disease, the parasite that caused the disease or how it will kill you? If you don't want to do it here, please PM me. I have never heard of such a thing.
Don't get out much? :D
In tropical areas there's horrible bad things that you can catch. I've had three friends who caught stuff in tropical areas that will kill them eventually (if it hasn't already). Parasites tend to attach themselves in bad places in the body like the liver. For some of these, there's a cure, but the cure is as bad as the disease, or worse. I had a beef tape worm once. Before they gave me the cure, it had to be ok'd by a panel of military doctors at the local hospital. When they gave me the prescription (one pill), the doctor told me to get a glass of water and sit down before taking it. It made the room spin around and made me feel like I was going to die. Within an hour, the critter was dead.
I had another friend who went to some "superstupid" ranger school in Venezuela. He was there for at least two months. He was about 6'2" and built like he was in the NFL. He came back about 6 months later after several months in the hospital. He weight less than half his former weight and was being processed out of the army. He thought that he was going to make it, but the next couple of months would tell. He got some sort of parasite from drinking swamp water.
I never assume that water is pure.
It started out with a regular old Gerardia infection, a parasitic beastie. A couple of rather nasty bacterial opportunistic diseases jumped in to make it more complicated. At first the Doc's thought I had diverticulitis, and did not aggressively treat the disease until I started bleeding to death. Several weeks of hospitalization and lots of IV antibiotics and antiparasitics brought it under control, but my body was pretty pissed off about the whole thing and decided to counter attack with some form of auto immune disease, which is a lot like Crone's disease. It seems the disease is always finding new ways to amuse me.( Fever, bodyaches, liver inflammation, and things we won't talk about in polite company) There is no cure for this, only treatment for symptoms. The disease will eventually kill me, but with any luck, not for a little while.
As it happens, I got off pretty light for a parasitic infection. Lots of water-borne diseases kill people by the gazillions.
Major Lord