Vanguard CAP Sword (pictures)

[JC004]

^^ Vanguard only has the standard 30".

[MIKE]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

[JC004]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Only because they fear the impending revolt of cadets with swords

[ddelaney103]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

"You'll put your eye out with that thing!"

[SJFedor]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Well, here's the question, does a pamphlet have a regulatory standing? If it was in a CAPR, no contest, but since it's just listed in a CAPP, does it count?

*puts on nomex in preparation for flaming*

[LtCol White]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

But if the people wearing swords are the only ones with them....how will someone take them away?! 

[O-Rex]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

[bosshawk]

I sincerely hope that Vanguard does not put either a point or a sharp edge on the blade: might be lethal in CAP.

[JayT]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Well, here's the question, does a pamphlet have a regulatory standing? If it was in a CAPR, no contest, but since it's just listed in a CAPP, does it count?

*puts on nomex in preparation for flaming*

Sir, I'm about ninety percent sure that same phrase is listed in another CAP regulation.

Plus, one could argue that since the wear of swords is not authorized in 39-1, that in and of itself is restriction enough.

[Cecil DP]

My Marine NCO sword costs less than CAP's pig sticker.

[jimmydeanno]

Pamphlets can gain authority from another regulation.  If CAPR 52-16 says "cadets will comply with customs and courtesies outlined in CAPP 151" the customs and courtesies become regulatory in instances that are outlined because 52-16 gave that authority (just and example, not actually quoted).

[sandman]

I like the idea of having this sword. Although a bit out of most individuals budgets especially individual squadrons, I could see a wing procuring several of these gems for an honor guard program.

Strictly verboten by CAPP 52-8.

Understood. But Lt Col Anderson tood a broad stroke of the pen when writing that pamphlet.

What I would like to see is a bit of thinking out of the box. Let's look at where CAPP 52-8 derives it prohibition:

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program.
a. Training in Hot Environments. For all cadet training activities, commanders will adhere to the fluid replacement and work load limitations described in CAPP 52-18, Cadet Physical Fitness Program.
b. Mission Activity. Cadets may participate on Air Force and other missions provided they meet the criteria outlined in CAPR 60-3, Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions.
c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
(2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training must be sponsored and supervised by one of the following:
(a) Qualified military small arms range personnel.
(b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors.
(c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors.

I guess that includes rocks, cans, bottles, leatherman tools, shovels, baseball bats, spitballs, etc. There are two exceptions noted in regards to firearms.

So the challenge is to think out of the box and start a campaign for an additional exception for a sword. The only problem is....you don't want to or your too: scared, tired, old, fat, lazy, above all that, worried about the black van.......

[sandman]

Traditionally, a sword represents combatant capability, which is why we don't carry them, nor is it used in CAP heraldry.

Citations please.

Have we already forgotton we have earned the sword? What about the sub-chasers of WW2? Pilots who have perished in support of the war effort? Getting shot at intentionally for the war effort (towing targets)? CAP was born out of combatant history.
c'mon people....really....

USPHS and NOAA have a sword; they're not even a part of DOD!

[JC004]

sandman: thanks for the additional weapon ideas.  Trouble is...I can't survive long cadet activities without soda cans...   

[RogueLeader]

Guess I better leave the truck at home. . .

[sandman]

^^ Vanguard only has the standard 30".

My bad....

That's what is in stock and since there's not enough demand (prior to this thread ) for the item they may be reluctant to produce length variations.

I'd be willing to bet that the etching template and machine could just as easily be applied to a 28" as to a 30". I might pose that question when I drive to the Carlsbad, CA office later.

[sandman]

CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005 67
CHAPTER 3 – CIVIL AIR PATROL HONOR GUARD UNIFORM
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes the standardized uniform worn by Civil Air Patrol honor guards.
This uniform is approved for wear during honor guard duties and performances only. Only those items
described in this chapter may be worn. Items such as blue ascots with BDU, boots with the service dress
uniform, swords, "Smokie Bear" hats, etc., are not permitted.

As I said, think out of the box and start a new campaign to include the sword.

Any problem with an "officer" honor guard?

[Skyray]

Must be something about the Sea Services.  I was at a cutter change of command ceremony a couple of weeks ago, and all the heavy hitters were in Mess Dress with swords.  Looked pretty cool, it did.  I don't think the Skipper trusted them to do the manual of arms, though.  They stayed in the scabbards for the whole show.

[JayT]

CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005 67
CHAPTER 3 – CIVIL AIR PATROL HONOR GUARD UNIFORM
3-1. General. This chapter prescribes the standardized uniform worn by Civil Air Patrol honor guards.
This uniform is approved for wear during honor guard duties and performances only. Only those items
described in this chapter may be worn. Items such as blue ascots with BDU, boots with the service dress
uniform, swords, "Smokie Bear" hats, etc., are not permitted.

As I said, think out of the box and start a new campaign to include the sword.

Any problem with an "officer" honor guard?

Well

You'll have my one hundred present support for that..........

Right after.............we.......

Get every cadet a full blues uniform..........fix the errors in all of our regulations and manual.........etc etc

[JohnKachenmeister]

At a wedding, under Air Force rules of ettiquette, the sword-bearers cannot be the ushers.  Don't know why, and I sure don't know anybody getting married who wants to spring for an arch of swords at $300 a pop, and in fact I have no idea why I posted this useless piece of trivia.