CAP officers saluting military officers

[RogueLeader]

Armed Forces personnel are not required to salute CAP officers, but if they do the salute must be returned.

They are in Iowa if you are in the A/NG.  that is the only place this is in effect.  The TAG has been so impressed by the IAWG CAP, that he feels that all members under his command WILL render the salute as if they are Military Personnel. Note, it does not say that they are, but they will be treated as if they are.  I'm note sure about the Cadets though.  Isuhawkeye, cyclone or LTC Critelli?

[smgilbert101]

[Flamethower on...]
First off, a PROFESSIONAL enlisted personal would salute any officer and set a good example; it's called customs and courtesies.  I have seen a US Army Command Sargeant Major salute a CAP LT. It was the right thing to do.  And people wonder why the so-called "real military" does not respect CAP members.  Maybe it has something to do with the fact that some of us either don't get it or have ego's so big that they can make up their own rules as they go.  I've saluted so many uniforms over the years, I can't even begin to count them.

We are talking about a very long standing military custom, we are talking about courtesies, first day basic training stuff. We are a paramilitary organization and have been since day 1, if you can't live with that or the organizations rules, you should reconsider how you spend your free time.

In terms of real vs. the intimated "fake military", get a clue, civilians outrank service members.  Again, basic training 101.  You are commsioned into a "leadership" position in CAP. CAP 101 stuff.

This is not only embarassing, but disgraceful.

[outta fuel...Flamethrower off...]

[ZigZag911]

Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.

ALmost certainly not going to happen.....but I suspect (as a former cadet officer myself) that many cadets would not want to see the two separated.....one thing that distinguishes CAP cadets from Young Marines, Sea Cadets and so forth is the opportunity to train and serve in ES.

Yeah, but the Sea Cadets get to do training in naval careers. I think CAPers would mucu rather 'work' with the Air Force then go out and train to do a job they'll never get called to do.

You know what, let's ask them!

Any cadets reading this thread??

Would you give up ES for the opportunity to work as trainees (I guess that's the term) in USAF career fields as cadets?

(Board Moderators: please note I am resisting the temptation to start a poll!)

Tags - MIKE

[ZigZag911]

I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.

True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.

Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!

[ZigZag911]

^  It is totally different when you have an E-6 working directly for you, and he also is a CAP officer in your CAP SQD.  It would be inappropriate for you to call him or her Sir, then expect that person to call you Sir the next morning.  It has to deal with the whole "might have to oder you to do something that may kill you". 

And that would be setting a terrific example for the cadets, wouldn't it??

Or would you expect some 13 year old C/AB to fathom the niceties of this situation??

To paraphrase Sandman's earlier comment, "When in Rome...."

If doing so in CAP interferes somehow with one's commitments or responsibilities as a member of the military, then perhaps that person ought to take Patron status in CAP until separation or retirement from the service

[CAPLAW]

This is an interesting topic!

I can remember as a cadet officer being saluted by military nco's and being called sir, it was kind of weird but I returned the salute .  I remember one time at AFSCFC at Patrick AFB I was a cadet 2Lt at the time and a command Sgt Maj from the army guard saluted me outside the riverside dinning hall, I explained to him I was a cap cadet and what we were and he insisted that his troops would salute us . The Guy (who was twice my size and could proably kick my butt) kept calling me sir and showed the up most respect .  many times at MacDill AFB in CAP bdus Ncos and Officers saluting me and they knew what CAP  was.

We are all on the same team, Guard, Reserve, Active Duty,CG Auxiliary, NSCC, ACA, private military schools,  state defense forces, and ROTC.  

Different organizations, different  uniforms but all serving America

[sandman]

The truth of the matter here is reflected in something "Sparky" mentioned in a recent PM: That there is a general self-loathing within the CAP officer corps in regards to wearing the USAF style uniform, using rank devices and titles, and performing customs and courtesies.

I am begining to perceive that this is true.

It is my opinion that in order to be taken seriously by those in the real military CAP members need to take thier volunteerism seriously. As pointed out, there are many members of the real military who offer you "an olive branch"; a salute.....a simple task....a simple gesture......but filled with such rich history and respect; not offered lightly but with respect for you as a fellow American, a "brother" in service, and as a mutual volunteer (although you don't get paid for your service). Please don't hesitate to return or initiate such a magnanimous gesture!

You....all of you CAP volunteers.....you should be proud of yourself for your altruistist endeavors.....I, and many others, are trying to make you aware of what you truely are.....a great American, in the tradition of the Minutemen and America's first militia, you are one of the greatest American resources and one that is critically needed.

Stop the self-loathing. Quit comparing yourself to the real military and chanting "we are not worthy...we are not worthy".

Best place to start? Simply whip out that salute smartly!

And if your D&C is not up to par...find a mentor. Go to your local VFW or American Legion if necessary....there are plenty of crusty old salts who are more than willing to set you straight

[Skyray]

I consider saluting a privilege: one of which I was deprived in the years between the end of my service and my entry into CAP, and one that I welcomed back when I joined CAP.  There are others who think the same way I do, witness the recent legislation extending the privilege of saluting the flag to veterans in civilian clothing.  I still feel a little uncomfortable saluting uncovered and in civilian clothing, but George Bush does it all the time, and it doesn't seem to bother him.  It was protocol back in my day to return salutes rendered to you by people who recognized you in civilian clothes, and that is why I got in the habit of only carrying one briefcase in my left hand.  To this day I am a little uncomfortable in a military setting with both hands full.

[Grumpy]

Got that right.  Never carry anything in your gun hand.

[Grumpy]

Good Morning Sandman,

Thank you for your very elegant comment.  I never thought about it like that before.  Being a retired AF Res NCO, I always felt conspicuous wearing officer's grade while on a military base.  Kind of like the "real dudes" thought I was playing officer and they resented it.

Keep up the good work in the Navy I envy you.  As for our other subject; keep the faith I believe things will get better.   

[Stonewall]

Excellent post, Sandman.  I think thise discussion should go no further.

[Dragoon]

Ya know, this whole thing could be made simpler by a simple word change in the pamphlet.

It says to salute those "senior in rank."

Which cause the confusion, because rank does not apply between CAP and USAF members.  We don't "outrank" them, and they don't "outrank" us.  NO authority of seniority either way.  Apples and oranges.

Perhaps if said something like salute those "wearing higher grade insignia than the CAP member"."

A bit wordy, but it gets us out of the "rank" thing and into the truth of the matter - the grade insignia.

[Hawk200]

Seems like a number of people want to be able to salute "cafeteria style". Pick and choose who you want to salute, and ignore the rest. It's a serious lack of integrity.

In the military, people salute those officers that outrank them. It's pretty simple, if you're an E-6, you will salute all officers, warranted and commisioned. If you're a warrant, you salute all other warrants that outrank you, and all commissioned officers. If you're commissioned, you salute all commissioned that outrank you. Pretty simple.

And as far rank, yes we do have rank. Lieutenant is a rank. Captain is a rank. Lieutenant Colonel is a rank. In the military, grade is pay grade, it determines your salary. Yes, I know, there are things that ask for grade in CAP, but it's simpler to equate them than to confuse the issues by epxlaining it. But CAP members don't have a paychart, so grade doesn't apply.

Although we do have ranks, we do not hold military commissions, and as such, we are not entitled to the benefits, priviledges, responsbilities that military officers have. The AFI indicates this.

However, if you choose not to salute someone, keep in mind how that reflects on everyone that wears the same uniform you do. If it reflects negatively, then your conduct is unprofessional.

[afgeo4]

I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.

True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.

Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!

CAP officers are NEVER appointed over military officers. That's according to CAP regulations. Military officers are in turn never appointed over CAP officers. Thus, one does not outrank the other.

Salutes are handed out as a matter of military courtesy since we do wear the military uniform. They are delived to those officers who hold a higher (pay)grade. So... if you're an O-2 equivalent in any service, be that a 1st Lt, LtJg or CAP 1st Lt, you salute everyone who is an O-3 or higher equivalent. If you are enlisted military or CAP you salute all officer equivalents.

The military does not have to salute us. If a military unit's commander decides that they do, it's his/her prerogative. It's their choice. Saluting CAP officers is optional.

[ddelaney103]

I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.

True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.

Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!

OK, I'll walk us through this.

The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces).  He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."

This is not unusual.  In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch).  However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.

So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.

[afgeo4]

I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.

True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.

Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!

OK, I'll walk us through this.

The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces).  He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."

This is not unusual.  In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch).  However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.

So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.

The CAP cannot be made to be a state militia of any kind by anyone. We are a federal agency that may be contracted to do work for a state, but we can NEVER be a state militia. If for no other reason than the fact that militias are military organizations and we are not (no matter how military-like we may be). CAP is not a federal nor a state military and won't be. Why? Because those already exist.

[ddelaney103]

I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.

True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.

Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!

OK, I'll walk us through this.

The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces).  He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."

This is not unusual.  In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch).  However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.

So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.

The CAP cannot be made to be a state militia of any kind by anyone. We are a federal agency that may be contracted to do work for a state, but we can NEVER be a state militia. If for no other reason than the fact that militias are military organizations and we are not (no matter how military-like we may be). CAP is not a federal nor a state military and won't be. Why? Because those already exist.

No, we are a congressionally chartered, not for profit corporation whose members may sometimes be designated as the USAF Auxiliary.

Other times?  I don't know.  The IA State House did something law-like concerning IAWG, but I don't know the details.  Hopefully, someone in the know will drop by and explain the matter.

Does the AF care?  Possibly, though they may not make a stink as long as we "dance with the one that brought us."

[afgeo4]

I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.

True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.

Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!

OK, I'll walk us through this.

The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces).  He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."

This is not unusual.  In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch).  However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.

So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.

The CAP cannot be made to be a state militia of any kind by anyone. We are a federal agency that may be contracted to do work for a state, but we can NEVER be a state militia. If for no other reason than the fact that militias are military organizations and we are not (no matter how military-like we may be). CAP is not a federal nor a state military and won't be. Why? Because those already exist.

No, we are a congressionally chartered, not for profit corporation whose members may sometimes be designated as the USAF Auxiliary.

Other times?  I don't know.  The IA State House did something law-like concerning IAWG, but I don't know the details.  Hopefully, someone in the know will drop by and explain the matter.

Does the AF care?  Possibly, though they may not make a stink as long as we "dance with the one that brought us."

In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).

[ddelaney103]

In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).

Militias are military?  The deuce you say! 

All kidding aside - for the purpose of this exercise it doesn't really matter what I think CAP is or what you think CAP is, but what the IA gov't and the IA AG thinks CAP is for them.  What the AF thinks CAP is might also figure into the equation, if the AF decides it's important.

[afgeo4]

In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).

Militias are military?  The deuce you say! 

All kidding aside - for the purpose of this exercise it doesn't really matter what I think CAP is or what you think CAP is, but what the IA gov't and the IA AG thinks CAP is for them.  What the AF thinks CAP is might also figure into the equation, if the AF decides it's important.

NO NO NO NO NO lol It only matters what the US Congress thinks CAP is. Because they chartered us. If Iowa wants its own CAP, they can create one. As the folks in Brooklyn say, "We ain't it". You must think that State Governments matter when it comes to federal agencies. They don't. As I said before, CAP can do work for state agencies when we have MOUs with them, but those MOUs have to be approved by NHQ to meet all standards set forth by the Congressional Charter and all applicable laws set forth by US Congress, not the State of Iowa or any other. One major confusion... We do not work for states. We may, on occasion work with states.