CAP officers saluting military officers

[isuhawkeye]

did you kiss his belly???



Congrads on passing the equater

[mikeylikey]

And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia

Wow.....I don't like that.  I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS?  No thank you.  When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!

Sorry mikeylikey....you're my cannon fodder for today!

Just some more "food for thought"; what is a "commissioned officer"?

A little Wiki for ya:

An officer is a member of a military, naval, or if applicable, other uniformed services who holds a position of responsibility.

Commissioned officers derive authority directly from a sovereign power and, as such, hold a commission charging them with the duties and responsibilities of a specific office or position. Commissioned officers are typically the only persons in a military environment able to exercise command (according to the most technical definition of the word) over a military unit.

Begs the question about "sovereign" power then right?

Sovereignty is the exclusive right to complete political (e.g. legislative, judicial, and/or executive) authority over an area of governance, people, or oneself.

CAP NHQ anybody?

But don't confuse "sovereignty" with "a sovereign"

A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority, subject to no other, and most often the head of state. Thus the legal maxim, "there is no law without a sovereign."

Sorry TP....

Commissions are held by military and civilian members. A commission can be invested in the individual (uniformed officer, federal judge, police officer, etc) or a group ( the Warren Commission, the Kettl Commission).

So brave souls....are you ready for it? Congradulations! You ARE commissioned officers

Though you receive no monitary instrumentalities as compensation for your service and you commission has no "gravitas" beyond the realm of CAP, you do have a commission. Live with it, wear it with pride, enjoy it! You deserve it.

v/r
LT

I'm on a roll today because I'm no longer a "wog"! I'm reporting aboard this board today as a newly minted "shellback"! Quite a sight to see the Jolly Roger flag fly on a US Navy warship today!!

FROM "The Armed Forces Officer"


1–3. A Commission is Never Lightly Given
a. The new officer is given a commission stating that the president of the United States has granted the officer
authority, having reposed "special trust and confidence" in the "patriotism, valor, fidelity and abilities" of that officer.
b. A commission is never lightly given. It must be earned and deserved. It does not mean that the officer instantly becomes a leader. It means the officer has been found worthy to enter a profession that dedicates itself to the leadership of American fighting forces and the defense of the nation.


Ok......SO I should have said "When a civilian undertakes what has to be to become a Commissioned Armed Forces Officer..."

Also......don't take everything from Wikipedia as basis to back up your stance.  I think if I wanted to, I could change that whole quote you took from Wiki in like 2 minutes. 

I also think the only people that are "commissioned officers" in CAP if we ever had to get down and dirty about it would be the Corporate Officers only.  They are the only equivilant individuals. 

[mikeylikey]

Lets not forget this quaote from the AFI (10-2701) on CAP.gov......

1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval
of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or
noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces.CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated
according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the
CAP grade structure.

So........

[ZigZag911]

Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.

ALmost certainly not going to happen.....but I suspect (as a former cadet officer myself) that many cadets would not want to see the two separated.....one thing that distinguishes CAP cadets from Young Marines, Sea Cadets and so forth is the opportunity to train and serve in ES.

[sandman]

Mikeylikey,
I see the problem here. You want to compare CAP officers with real military officers...

To quote myself:

Though you receive no monitary instrumentalities as compensation for your service and you commission has no "gravitas" beyond the realm of CAP

I am not comparing CAP officers with real military officers. Regardless of Wikipedia's credibility problems, the definition of a "commission" still holds true.

To quote you:

Lets not forget this quaote from the AFI (10-2701) on CAP.gov......

1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval
of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or
noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces

And as you've rightly pointed out, CAP officers have no authority over members of the armed forces. No dispute there. Let's study what the AFI is saying about status.

This is an Air Force Instruction which gives guidance regarding CAP status within the USAF structure. As such CAP officers do not have a military commission conferred upon them by the President of the United States (....that sovereign thing)

In the general idea of a "commission" however an individual CAP officer has been granted a commission within the structure of the CAP by the powers that be within CAP NHQ and CAP, Inc. (...that sovereign thing again) That commission is not perpetual in nature and terminates within a certain time limit unless vacated by renewal procedures initiated by the individual commissioned officer (paid you dues recently?). The commission may also be terminated by actions initiated by a command authority (piss off your squadron commander recently?).

I have no doubt that you understand that and that I'm "preaching to the choir". Generally speaking you hold a commission. Heck, you can commission youself to go mown the lawn for all that matters; semantics I say.

So........

So...so what?

/r
LT

[JC004]

I have no doubt that you understand that and that I'm "preaching to the choir". Generally speaking you hold a commission. Heck, you can commission youself to go mown the lawn for all that matters; semantics I say.

I frequently commission cadets to go get me a soda. 

[sandman]

did you kiss his belly???



Congrads on passing the equater

Thanks! Feels good.

Medical went through first I believe because of the varied ranks and non-ranks within the group, and I think Neptunis Rex and Davy Jones went a little easier on us because of it...

We had several O-6 Captains go through with us from the Navy and USPHS. Many civilians went through including a young lady volunteer of 64 years old from Project Hope. Our Air Force nurses (O-3's and O-4's) went through so you now have "shellback" USAF members! I had to go through the tar and feathers twice cause I was twice as "nice". Only blew kisses at royal baby....didn't have to suck the cherry out thank goodness

I was thinking of putting out a call to all medical (and even non-medical) CAP persons who might want to volunteer for a voyage like this. I have the MOU's almost ready to go....and you could serve in uniform! Any medical people out there?

Volunteers have spent a week up to and including the whole four months. You buy the ticket to the embarkation pier and back (wherever you want to embark and disembark, some have come in via Philippines, Vietnam, Guam, Singapore etc). No cost for meals or berthing. Any one interested?

Oh, and in keeping in spirit with this thread, you will salute the ensign and OOD while crossing the brow and you will get a chance to exchange salutes with real military (U.S. and Foreign) all the time while in port or anchored, the custom WILL be expected and observed.

/r
LT

[sandman]

I have no doubt that you understand that and that I'm "preaching to the choir". Generally speaking you hold a commission. Heck, you can commission youself to go mown the lawn for all that matters; semantics I say.

I frequently commission cadets to go get me a soda. 

There you go! See? Lighten up and don't take it too seriously. Quit making comparisons with the real military or at least don't read too deep into it. Follow the general guidelines of customs and courtesies, take pride in the fact that you're helping Big Blue, relax and enjoy. Inculcate into those young skulls full of mush (cadets, that means you) the big picture of what those endless days of D&C mean......self dicipline and self respect as well as respect for authority and others (something SEVERELY lacking in todays youth).

Let the professionalism that you have exude its influence on others around you, or if lacking in certain aspects of that ideal, seek a mentor that has the leadership qualities of a military (or civil) leader. Like the bright but brief glint of a finely honed sword distant in the sunlight so shines a well excuted salute to a real military officer.....it just catches 'em off guard. You may not see the sword off in the distance but you know (or hope) it's there because the training, professionalism, and pride is the sword unseen.

Here mikeylikey, if not Wiki, will Merriam-Webster do??

Main Entry: 1com·mis·sion
Pronunciation: k&-'mi-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin commission-, commissio act of bringing together, from committere
1 a : a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties b : a certificate conferring military rank and authority; also : the rank and authority so conferred
2 : an authorization or command to act in a prescribed manner or to perform prescribed acts : CHARGE
3 a : authority to act for, in behalf of, or in place of another b : a task or matter entrusted to one as an agent for another
4 a : a group of persons directed to perform some duty b : a government agency having administrative, legislative, or judicial powers c : a city council having legislative and executive functions
5 : an act of committing something <commission of a crime>
6 : a fee paid to an agent or employee for transacting a piece of business or performing a service; especially : a percentage of the money received from a total paid to the agent responsible for the business
7 : an act of entrusting or giving authority
- in commission or into commission
1 : under the authority of commissioners
2 of a ship : ready for active service
3 : in use or in condition for use
- on commission : with commission serving as partial or full pay for work done
- out of commission
1 : out of active service or use
2 : out of working order

Remember, don't focus on just 1(a), read all and understand.....

v/r
LT

[mikeylikey]

Go Army, beat Navy!   

[sandman]

FROM "The Armed Forces Officer"


1–3. A Commission is Never Lightly Given
a. The new officer is given a commission stating that the president of the United States has granted the officer
authority, having reposed "special trust and confidence" in the "patriotism, valor, fidelity and abilities" of that officer.

Wow, where do I start?

Reposed. or rely. Yes, a military commission is a trust in the individuals oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America....The President relys upon the individual to adhere to his or her oath.

Patriotism. I went to the recruiter and signed up.
Valor. I still signed up even after the recruiter told me some lies.
Fidelity. I signed up and swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic....I actually went through basic military training and didn't "cop out" when asked/directed to do various jobs. I also signed up for another tour.
Abilities. Passed the physical. Got a qualifying degree (officers or certain enlisted fields). Passed basic military training. Agreed to do a job.

You can say the same thing about CAP officers too...except for the degree thing....and the basic training thing....can't say much about the "cop out" thing though...........dang, gotta retool that thought

b. A commission is never lightly given. It must be earned and deserved.

Eh?? Maybe for some combat arms branches.....otherwise get a college degree and don't have any felony convictions

It does not mean that the officer instantly becomes a leader[/b]. It means the officer has been found worthy to enter a profession that dedicates itself to the leadership of American fighting forces and the defense of the nation.

Yep....another entry level job.

Ok......SO I should have said "When a civilian undertakes what has to be to become a Commissioned Armed Forces Officer..."

Fair enough, I agree!

Also......don't take everything from Wikipedia as basis to back up your stance.  I think if I wanted to, I could change that whole quote you took from Wiki in like 2 minutes.

I don't. I took one thing that actually had merit. This is all "tongue 'n' cheek" anyway  

I also think the only people that are "commissioned officers" in CAP if we ever had to get down and dirty about it would be the Corporate Officers only.  They are the only equivilant individuals.

I could concede that....but why are you trying to sell youself short? I am mearly pointing out the basis for a "commission"...not a federal, state, county, or city commission. I'm simply trying to steer many away from constantly comparing themselves to the real military.....it only feeds your misery and self doubt.....it erodes you confidence and professionalism.

v/r
LT

[RogueLeader]

Wow.....I don't like that.  I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS?  No thank you.  When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!

Gee, a superior Officer- the TAG says: You will all salute CAP Officers as our own; you would disobey?   I know I'm paraphrasing, and most likely poorly, you would go against orders?  I don't think you really know how well IAWG and IA A/NG get along. They really do well together.  One of the comments made by some of the NG has been along the lines of:
Soldier: "Man, doing PT in the Cold is really fun."
NCO: "Look, CAP cadets are doing PT as well."
Soldier: "So what?"
NCO: "They aren't paid.  They chose to do this."
Soldier:

There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa,  what can you say for YOUR wing?

[JC004]

There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa,  what can you say for YOUR wing?

I can say that our hats are more orange than yours.

[mikeylikey]

There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa,  what can you say for YOUR wing?

I would have to say PAWG sucks!  From the orange hats, to the all Ranger Squadrons.  From the Wing Commander who wanted to have his term extended, to an overpaid Executive Director at the Headquarters who has had the position for almost 14 years.  

RogueLeader, you got me.  I can not say anything that will make PAWG look good.  I can try, but I would only embarrass the membership.  The Wing is backwards, the leadership is all from one side of the State, the logistics are in a terrible state of decay, there is no good relationship with the National Guard, vehicles and aircraft are distributed based on friendships, there is an apparent nepotism problem throughout the wing, the State Director has said that New Jersey is 1 million times better than the PAWG, encampment and cadet activity costs are at an all time high, there is little funding for training as most of the appropriations go toward HAWK MTN.  I could go on and on......but I am getting tired.

In summary, PAWG is the worst wing in the country.  You may ask why I don't leave, well I don't agree with living in one state and belonging to a CAP unit in another.  However, Delaware wing is looking very good these days!

For those of you in PAWG (General Colgan), I don't Hate Philadelphia, but hate the fact that the ENTIRE WING Staff is no more than 1.5 to 2 hours away from that city.  

[Smokey]

Sandman,


Bravo Zulu on making shellback.   I'm sure you will proudly wear the title now that you are no longer a polywog.

Every shellback I know proudly admits the honor......polywogs have a tendancy to avert their eyes and sadly say..."I'm just a polywog."  

[mikeylikey]

 

[RogueLeader]

There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa,  what can you say for YOUR wing?

I can say that our hats are more orange than yours.

Considering that they-formerly we- do not allow Orange hats in IAWG, that is an easy thing to say.  They do ISSUE Orange hard Hats for ES though.

[JayT]

Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.

ALmost certainly not going to happen.....but I suspect (as a former cadet officer myself) that many cadets would not want to see the two separated.....one thing that distinguishes CAP cadets from Young Marines, Sea Cadets and so forth is the opportunity to train and serve in ES.

Yeah, but the Sea Cadets get to do training in naval careers. I think CAPers would mucu rather 'work' with the Air Force then go out and train to do a job they'll never get called to do.

[sandman]

Go Army, beat Navy!   

There ya go!

Funny, I get confused at Army-Navy games! Most of my ribbons on my Navy uniform are from the Army!

Guess that's why I'm joining the U.S. Public Health Service shortly.....promotions are quicker too!

Thanks Smokey for the "shout out"!

Hey, if anybody wants to sign up for a short cruise as a uniformed volunteer.....well, wouldn't it be cool to have the first real CAP shellback!

I can't actually claim that honor as I was onboard as a Navy member (although I do have my CAP ID card with me onboard )

/r
LT

[flyguy06]

The Iowa National Guard has made it clear that CAP officers are to aslute officers who wear insignia senior to he officer in question. 

And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia

I totally disagree withthat. I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard and I am a Capt soon to be MAJ in the CAP. So if I were in the Iowa National Guard, I am supposed to salute a CAP Captin eventhough I am a CAP captain? Plus in CAP we have members that retired as full Colonels an above but because of CAP regs they can only be Lt Col's. ao are they supposed to salute Col's even  though they retired as a General Officer?

[Ned]

I totally disagree withthat. I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard and I am a Capt soon to be MAJ in the CAP. So if I were in the Iowa National Guard, I am supposed to salute a CAP Captin eventhough I am a CAP captain? Plus in CAP we have members that retired as full Colonels an above but because of CAP regs they can only be Lt Col's. ao are they supposed to salute Col's even  though they retired as a General Officer?

Yup.  "Secret Federal Grade" earned by prior service officers is not part of the equation.

I knew a guy that got RIFed as a USAF captain and wound up honorably finishing his 20 as a Tsgt.  The AF had the nerve to tell him that he had to salute Lts when wearing his enlisted guy uniform.

But you are certainly free to disagree with the MG Dardis' decision.

Be sure to let him know how you feel:

Office of The Adjutant General of Iowa

                Joint Forces Headquarters

                7105 NW 70th Avenue

                Johnston, Iowa 50131-1824

Commercial (515) 252-4211

(DSN) 431-4211