CAP officers saluting military officers

[Sgt. Savage]

In regards to the topic,

Capp 151 says:

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.


Senior in rank. Period. A 2LT is NEVER senior in rank to a Col, NEVER. N-E-V-E-R, NEVER. Likewise, a COL doesn't ALWAYS have authority over a 2Lt, though he does "Out-Rank" him. It's a salute. WTF is the problem rendering a salute? Who cares? Protocol says you salute them if they are senior in rank. They will surely return your salute. If they don't salute you, screw 'em. I've seen an AD E-6 REFUSE to salute a CAP officer, even in front of his cadets. Nothing you can do. Sure, it's low class but whatever. It all boils down to the Golden Rule.

[afgeo4]

In regards to the topic,

Capp 151 says:

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.


Senior in rank. Period. A 2LT is NEVER senior in rank to a Col, NEVER. N-E-V-E-R, NEVER. Likewise, a COL doesn't ALWAYS have authority over a 2Lt, though he does "Out-Rank" him. It's a salute. WTF is the problem rendering a salute? Who cares? Protocol says you salute them if they are senior in rank. They will surely return your salute. If they don't salute you, screw 'em. I've seen an AD E-6 REFUSE to salute a CAP officer, even in front of his cadets. Nothing you can do. Sure, it's low class but whatever. It all boils down to the Golden Rule.

That is pretty low and I bet his CC wouldn't agree with such an action. Even enemy combatants salute each other at formal functions as a sign of respect of profession.

[ddelaney103]

In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).

Militias are military?  The deuce you say! 

All kidding aside - for the purpose of this exercise it doesn't really matter what I think CAP is or what you think CAP is, but what the IA gov't and the IA AG thinks CAP is for them.  What the AF thinks CAP is might also figure into the equation, if the AF decides it's important.

NO NO NO NO NO lol It only matters what the US Congress thinks CAP is. Because they chartered us. If Iowa wants its own CAP, they can create one. As the folks in Brooklyn say, "We ain't it". You must think that State Governments matter when it comes to federal agencies. They don't. As I said before, CAP can do work for state agencies when we have MOUs with them, but those MOUs have to be approved by NHQ to meet all standards set forth by the Congressional Charter and all applicable laws set forth by US Congress, not the State of Iowa or any other. One major confusion... We do not work for states. We may, on occasion work with states.

I am talking from the POV of an IG that has decided that CAP officers merit salutes from the state military that he runs.  I have outlined how such an order might come about and how it might be considered a legitimate order.

If we take he standpoint that CAP is a congressionally chartered corporation first, last, and only, then ordering his members to salute CAP officers is an illegal order.  Only our use of US military insignia to represent our progression in the organization confuses the issue.  The American Red Cross is also a congressionally chartered corporation who sometimes wear uniforms (and deploy downrange), but we wouldn't expect the military to salute them.

[DrJbdm]

Yes, but CAP is more then just a federally chartered corporation. it is the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary. Whether people like it or not we are a military organization. comparing us to the Red Cross is not a fair comparison. we have been military in nature since we where formed. this whole mindset of we are just a corporation is a relatively new idea.

  I think the issue of saluting our officers would be a different mindset if CAP didn't make every single person who joined an instant Officer in 6months. We should have high standards for those wishing to serve as an officer. There is nothing wrong with serving in CAP as a member who isn't an officer....but thats another topic.

[ZigZag911]

I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.

True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.

Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!

CAP officers are NEVER appointed over military officers. That's according to CAP regulations. Military officers are in turn never appointed over CAP officers. Thus, one does not outrank the other.

Salutes are handed out as a matter of military courtesy since we do wear the military uniform. They are delived to those officers who hold a higher (pay)grade. So... if you're an O-2 equivalent in any service, be that a 1st Lt, LtJg or CAP 1st Lt, you salute everyone who is an O-3 or higher equivalent. If you are enlisted military or CAP you salute all officer equivalents.

The military does not have to salute us. If a military unit's commander decides that they do, it's his/her prerogative. It's their choice. Saluting CAP officers is optional.

Clarification: the "officer appointed over" a commissioned officer to whom I was referring was The Adjutant General of the State of Iowa, whom I believe is a Maj. Gen. of the National Guard....my point was in response to the outrage at the order he issued to his people to salute CAP officers senior in grade.

I never intended to infer that CAP officers were ever placed over Real Military!

[JC004]

::sigh::

[smgilbert101]

^^agreed^^

[Smokey]

I think in many ways it boils down to...

Some CAP members dislike that idea that we are even remotely associated with the military.  Those are the ones who, even though eligible, will not wear the AF style uniforms (blues or BDU) and wear the golf shirt uniform when forced into a uniform. They do not like the idea of having to salute someone whose status (military) they would rather not acknowledge. They would prefer that we break away from being the AF Aux.

Those proud of our heritage and background that associates us with the military (first the Army [AAF] then the Air Force) have no problem understanding the meaning of the salute. They also don't quibble about commissions, rank vs. grade, dual status, and the other nonsense that has appeared in this thread.

GEEZ....GET OVER IT.      YOU DON'T LIKE TO SALUTE , DISLIKE THE MILITARY, HAVE ISSUES ABOUT OUR STATUS.......THEN DON'T WEAR THE AF STYLE UNIFORM AND IT WON'T BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU     

For those proud of the association with the AF, it isn't even an issue.

[A.Member]

I think in many ways it boils down to...

Some CAP members dislike that idea that we are even remotely associated with the military.  Those are the ones who, even though eligible, will not wear the AF style uniforms (blues or BDU) and wear the golf shirt uniform when forced into a uniform. They do not like the idea of having to salute someone whose status (military) they would rather not acknowledge. They would prefer that we break away from being the AF Aux.

Those proud of our heritage and background that associates us with the military (first the Army [AAF] then the Air Force) have no problem understanding the meaning of the salute. They also don't quibble about commissions, rank vs. grade, dual status, and the other nonsense that has appeared in this thread.

GEEZ....GET OVER IT.      YOU DON'T LIKE TO SALUTE , DISLIKE THE MILITARY, HAVE ISSUES ABOUT OUR STATUS.......THEN DON'T WEAR THE AF STYLE UNIFORM AND IT WON'T BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU     

For those proud of the association with the AF, it isn't even an issue.

And if that's the case one would also have to wonder why they're even part of this organization.  There are many other volunteer organizations out there. 

[flyerthom]

I think in many ways it boils down to...

Some CAP members dislike that idea that we are even remotely associated with the military.  Those are the ones who, even though eligible, will not wear the AF style uniforms (blues or BDU) and wear the golf shirt uniform when forced into a uniform. They do not like the idea of having to salute someone whose status (military) they would rather not acknowledge. They would prefer that we break away from being the AF Aux.

Those proud of our heritage and background that associates us with the military (first the Army [AAF] then the Air Force) have no problem understanding the meaning of the salute. They also don't quibble about commissions, rank vs. grade, dual status, and the other nonsense that has appeared in this thread.

GEEZ....GET OVER IT.      YOU DON'T LIKE TO SALUTE , DISLIKE THE MILITARY, HAVE ISSUES ABOUT OUR STATUS.......THEN DON'T WEAR THE AF STYLE UNIFORM AND IT WON'T BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU     

For those proud of the association with the AF, it isn't even an issue.

And if that's the case one would also have to wonder why they're even part of this organization.  There are many other volunteer organizations out there. 

Not that I'm a break away, anti military type but I'll attempt an answer why be a part pf CAP.

Altruistic:
1) A strong interest in being involved in their community.
2) A love of aviation.
3) A desire to use their talent for flying for the community.
4) An interest and talent for SAR (why CAP rather than angel flight)
5) An interest in kids programs.
6) A desire to be in an adult program for growth and achievement.

Personal:
1) Resume padding
2) cheap flying
3) Networking
4) his/her kids are in it.

In other words, some of the same reasons the rest of us are.  That being said, use the golf shirt and blazer if you want out of uniforms. There's nothing wrong with them. I've seen wing staff in them. Come And Participate, that's what truly makes us a great organization.

[mikeylikey]

it is the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.

No it is NOT.  That law was changed.  It is the AF AUX when on an AF mission. 

[RogueLeader]

^^ Be that as you may, but you can't pick and chose the parts as you wish.  If you don't like a certain part of it; that's tough.  You wear the Golf Shirt and don't let the mil aspect of it bother you. 

I won't debate whether we should be Aux or not.  Although we ARE. We are written into the  US Code, as well as some of the AF and Army's regs.  We use their insignia, and the TAG in Iowa has decided that all members will show C&C to CAP Personnel.

If we take he standpoint that CAP is a congressionally chartered corporation first, last, and only, then ordering his members to salute CAP officers is an illegal order. 

How would it be illegal?  It could only be illegal if there was a law against it.  There isn't.  You may not like the order, but it's not your call.

[mikeylikey]

^  Apparently they are doing their "own thing" in Iowa these days.  More power to them.  Oh ya.....I worked with Iowa Guard members RETRAINING them to Army standards at Fort Sill about three years ago.  Let me say, they are doing their own thing.  The wrong thing. 

CAP members are not granted State or Federal Commissions.  How can a NG CPT be forced to salute a CAP Major that may have just joined the program no more than 6 months prior.  Mind Blowing.  BUT I DO NOT CARE ANY LONGER! 

Go Iowa!

[MIKE]

Yeah I think this thread is about done... Lock.