Deserters...what happens to them in "modern times"

[Major Carrales]

This came up in another forum...

A fellow I knew (who I later found out was a deserter) walked away from his post and lived in our town for three years, worked and married (don't know the details of what type of marriage that was) before he was arrested for it.  I did not find out about this for about a year after it happened.

I had not seen him since about two years before because, and I was told this later by a mutual aquaintence, he had been avoiding me because he saw me in my Civil Air Patrol uniform loading my car for a meeting.

Although the CAP has nothing to do with such matters, the captain's bars I wore at the time were enough to keep this guy away.  Go figure?

Still, he was "at large and AWOL" for a considerable time before anything was done.  I don't knowingly "hang around" with deserters and the like so i don;t much know the procedure.

What does happen to them?

[SarDragon]

I'm not sure what's happening these days with the Gulf War going on, but before that, the effort to recover deserters wasn't all that aggressive. There are still folks who go after deserters who may have additional charges against them, but most "recoveries" have been turned in by friends/family, or just tire of running, and turn themselves in.

[AlphaSigOU]

In this day and age, deserters who return to military control are usually given a court-martial and drummed out on a dishonorable discharge (dismissal for officers).

The firing squad wall pour encourager les autres has long been patched up and repainted. Even then, they'd resort to lethal injection.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Before the current war, deserters were not hunted.  Warrants were issued for them, but once caught, they would be processed for discharge.  Prosecuting them was not worth the effort and expense.

Now that we are at war, different story.  Deserters are arrested and will be prosecuted.  Typically, a deserter gets from 2-5 years.  We don't shoot them anymore.

There is one knida interesting legal angle, to this and a few other UCMJ offenses.  Some, including desertion, increase the penalty up to a capital offense if the offense is committed in "Time of war."

Now, since there have been two Congressional authorizations to use military force, and those authorizations were passed in conformity to the "War Powers Act," does a Congressionally-declared "Use of force" mean the same as a Congressionally-declared "War" in terms of increasing the criminal penalty for certain military crimes?

[JCJ]

In today's information age, the other thing that happens is at some point (I think when they are declared a deserter) an entry is made into the NCIC (Nationwide law enforcement computer system) and anytime they are stopped for a traffic stop or otherwise cross paths with law enforcement they will likely get a warrants check run on them, which will show the deserter status.  This will likley result in their being arrested and turned over to military custody.

I think I have also read that deserter status is a public record that gets listed on one's credit report - which becomes an issue when buying anything on credit, or applying for high-end jobs, etc.  We haven't even takled about the other background check systems (Choicepoint, Lexis-Nexis, etc)

It's really hard to live in anonymity these days unless you have a huge stash of cash money.

[Major Lord]

Before the current war, deserters were not hunted.  Warrants were issued for them, but once caught, they would be processed for discharge.  Prosecuting them was not worth the effort and expense.

Now that we are at war, different story.  Deserters are arrested and will be prosecuted.  Typically, a deserter gets from 2-5 years.  We don't shoot them anymore.

There is one knida interesting legal angle, to this and a few other UCMJ offenses.  Some, including desertion, increase the penalty up to a capital offense if the offense is committed in "Time of war."

Now, since there have been two Congressional authorizations to use military force, and those authorizations were passed in conformity to the "War Powers Act," does a Congressionally-declared "Use of force" mean the same as a Congressionally-declared "War" in terms of increasing the criminal penalty for certain military crimes?

I Think the "Time of War" enhancement only applies in declared "legal" wars (which in my opinion are in short supply, but what do you do when one of your own major political parties sides with your enemy?) Had there been a declared state of war for instance during the  Vietnam "police action" There would have been a Prima Facia case for Treason against Jane Fonda. Had there been a declared war in the recent conflict , certain members of Congress could potentially be swinging from a yardarm for various offenses. (Which may have been a factor in their denying the President a declaration of war....) As I recall, certain aspects of the UCMJ can still be pretty threatening, such as penalties for desertion to avoid a troop movement (not the exact wording, something like that) In point of fact, I don't think they gave that poor, misunderstood Islamic US Army soldier the death penalty when he killed his fellow soldiers with a grenade intentionally in dirka-dirkistan... ( Its' a religion of peace, as you know..) Summary execution in the field, firing squads, etc, are a bit passe' ( well the enemy still subscribes to that, but we are too nice to use any tactics that might actually allow us to win, wouldn't be sporting and might offend them, piss of CAIR, the ACLU , etc, and we can't have that!)

Capt. Lord

[Major Lord]

By the way, as a confirmed Desserter, I prefer cheesecake....

Capt. Lord

[AlphaSigOU]

By the way, as a confirmed Desserter, I prefer cheesecake....

Capt. Lord

And it better be Noo Yawk cheesecake! 

[JohnKachenmeister]

A point or two of correction:

Vietnam was not a "Police Action," Korea was.  US Forces were sent in by the UN to enforce a Security Council resolution ordering North Korea tocease all aggression in the South.

Vietnam was "Military Assistance to a friendly government."

Both of those actions took place prior to Congress passing the "War Powers Act," which is supposed to have clarified  the Constitutional roles of the Congress, which has the power to declare war, and the President's power as commander-in-chief of the armed forces.

The Muslim 101st troop who killed his officers just prior to the outbreak of hostilities in Iraq would not apply, since murder is a capital crime both in war and in peace.  My question would refer to crimes such as Desertion, Missing Movement, Misbehavior of Sentinel, Improper Use of a Countersign, etc. that are capital crimes only during "Time of War."

[Major Lord]

My only point in pointing out the soldier who commited murder was to illustrate that criminal misdeeds in the military rarely result in capital punishment. The United Nations as I recall coined the "police action" terminology, but clearly this was not law enforcment in the strictest sense of the word.....   Korea and Vietnam were similar to each other in that Congress did not declare a state of war, but waged war anyway.

Capt. Lord

[JohnKachenmeister]

A lot goes into a decision to seek the death penalty when a prosecutor gets a murder case.  A death penalty verdict is very hard to get, as it should be.  If there is any problem with witnesses, evidence, the defendant state of mind, or any other mitigating factor, most prosecutors will take the safer course, and go for life in prison.  I have been involved in 5 or 6 murder cases, and the death penalty was not a part of any of them.  All involved criminals killing other criminals, or husbands killing their wives' lovers, or other cases that do not seem to generate the passion necessary to invoke the death penalty.

I realize that the Muslim throwing a grenade into a CP is a good candidate for a death penalty, but I would not try to second-guess the prosecutor, or the Trial Counsel as they are called in a court-martial.

But the question still is on the table... is a Congressionally-declared  use of force a "War" within the meaning intended by the UCMJ?

[DHollywood]

Having had some actual experience with people who went AWOL in the Army this is what really happens (at least in the Army). (I worked a special duty AWOL recovery team for a while).

When you go AWOL you are DFR'd (dropped from the roll) from the unit organizational table (TO&E) after 30 days of being AWOL.

If you are caught or surrender in that 30 day time period you are returned to your unit for punishment under Article 15, etc. at the Company/Battalion level.  Typical punishment was loss of pay for 2 to 3 months, demotion one rank, and restriction and extra duty.  No court martial occured.

If you managed to stay away for more than 30 days you were submitted to NCIC as a federal "want" (not a warrant since a warrant comes from a court) and if picked up you would be held until the AWOL special duty team came to get you.

What a lot of guys would do at Ft. Bragg is go away for 30+ days, then turn themsleves in.  They would be shipped to Ft. Knox for "processing" which could mean court martial and reassignment if they chose or simply a stipulated general discharge for the good of the service.

Some would stay in and take their punishment and become model soldiers after having gone AWOL because of family problems when they were denied leave.

Some would just simply take the general discharge (not dishonorable because there was never a court martial) and go on with their life.

Ft. Bragg reportedly had the highest AWOL rate in the Army and it was common knowledge among all of us in the 82nd Airborne that one could get out of Bragg or out of the Division with a well planned "absence" and some punishment at the other end.

"Desertion" is more of a wartime crime and probably most "deserters" simply went AWOL - even in time of "war."  Missing a movement is an example (unit shipping overseas for combat, etc.)

I'm not sure what other branches do but in the Army, pretty much nothing happened to a soldier who went AWOL unless they came back and stayed in.

[Dragoon]

When I AWOLed a soldier in the mid 90s, and then did the DFR packet, I asked the CID what happens next.

He said basically they put out a warrant and wait for the guy to commit some other crime.

Because guys who go AWOL inevitably get picked up for drugs, robbing a convenience store, fighting in a bar, something.

Then the cop does the records check, finds out about the AWOL warrant and....voila!  A twofer!

Basically this was the "once a dirtbag, always a dirtbag" philosophy.  Seemed to work pretty well.

[JohnKachenmeister]

He's right.  I have picked up more than a few from traffic stops, domestics, general misbehavior.  Some folks just can't follow rules.

[AlphaSigOU]

Unfortunately, the idea of putting deserters or other miscreants of the military justice system into penal battalions straight to the front lines just ain't gonna go well these days... way the Russkies and Krauts did 'em in WWII was you got busted to slick-sleeve private, sent to the front and your record got wiped clean if you were KIA or distinguished yourself in combat.

[SarDragon]

When I was close to the action, the difference between AWOL and desertion was intent. Someone absent over 30 days could be prosecuted for desertion, but there was an investigation first. If the offender showed a conscious effort to discard his uniforms and get rid of otyher evidence that he was in the military, then he was much more likely to be prosecuted for desertion. Those folks who just walked away, and never bothered with getting rid of stuff didn't get hammered as hard because they didn't show as much intent. Funny situation, but that's what they did.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Legally, Dave...

What you are alluding to is called a "Presumption."  A presumption is a substitute for evidence.  After 30 days, the serviceperson is presumed to intend to stay away forever.  He or she can rebut that presumption with evidence of intent to return, such as retaining uniforms, keeping the ID card, or contacting members of the unit, like the chaplain.

[SarDragon]

Yup, that's it. Thanks. It's been a while since I've had any contact with that stuff.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I used to teach at the police academy. 

[SAR-EMT1]

What is the appropriate term when one is AWOL for a shorter period of time? And  what happens to them?   Say a week to ten days...