Non-Nomex Gree Flight Suit

[Flying Pig]

Good point.   There is a lot of brass at my current department.  People tend to do a lot of speaking "for him"    I would have to imagine he doesn't even care. 

[Private Investigator]

We've had three crashes of CAP aircraft in the past 20 years in CAWG. All three were during actual search missions.
All three had survivors who were burned badly from the post crash fires.
And the areas they were burned the most was the areas that were NOT covered by a NOMEX garmet.

PPE does work, but only if you wear ALL of it. Which means Flight Suit with the sleeves rolled all the way down, collar turned up and you're wearing the NOMEX/Leather flight gloves.

We have nothing that protects the face.  Besides, 3 crashes out of 20 years, how many people died of blunt force trauma?  I would say that if it were really about safety, then the use of a helmet is probably far more practical in most scenarios.

Well how about a parachute?

It is all about "Risk Management". After 30 years as a lawman, I know lots of people who wore body armor and then I know a few that should have, but I went to their funerals instead of their weddings, anniversaries, birthday parties, etc, etc. 

[Private Investigator]

  I would wear the flight suit with the VIP transports, but for whatever reason the boss wants the pilots in dress clothes.   

FWIW, I was a "police boss" for quite a while and did my share of riding in LE aircraft. Had I seen a LE flight crew wearing anything other than a flight suit I would have thought "Wow! How exceedingly odd!" (Or something closely related thereto).

I wonder, though - in your case, is it REALLY the boss's preference? Or some staff weenie guessing how things oughta be?

Interesting observations. Top cops vary, the MBA guy/gal wants "dress clothes" and most likely the guy/gal who came up thru the ranks prefer the "operational look". JMHO, YMMV. 

[Eclipse]

We've had three crashes of CAP aircraft in the past 20 years in CAWG. All three were during actual search missions.
All three had survivors who were burned badly from the post crash fires.
And the areas they were burned the most was the areas that were NOT covered by a NOMEX garmet.

PPE does work, but only if you wear ALL of it. Which means Flight Suit with the sleeves rolled all the way down, collar turned up and you're wearing the NOMEX/Leather flight gloves.

We have nothing that protects the face.  Besides, 3 crashes out of 20 years, how many people died of blunt force trauma?  I would say that if it were really about safety, then the use of a helmet is probably far more practical in most scenarios.

Well how about a parachute?

It is all about "Risk Management". After 30 years as a lawman, I know lots of people who wore body armor and then I know a few that should have, but I went to their funerals instead of their weddings, anniversaries, birthday parties, etc, etc. 

A good point, but the "M" is management, meaning factoring in all the variables and making smart decisions based
on the likelihood of the risk versus the cost. Cost being not only money but time, effort, etc.

When I teach new motorcycle riders, the topic of safety gear is part of the curriculum.  I'm from one of the
only two states that does not require a helmet, however statistically, motorcycle riders are fairly likely
to have an accident at some point in their riding career.  Anecdotally it's near impossible to find a rider who
hasn't dumped pretty good once or twice, and statistically, the odds of being in a bike accident are in the
neighborhood of 35% higher then if you are in a car.  And on a bike, just falling over in the driveway can be fatal if you hit your
head.  That's demonstrable risk based on decades of crash data.

In the Nomex case, the likelihood is statistically zero.  I'd even go so far as to saying it's probably statistically zero if we
factored in all GA-type flying and not just limited it to CAP.  You're far more likely to trip and fall on the tarmac
or get into a vehicular accident on the way to the airport then having an aircraft incident that involves fire.

The other issue is the point that CAWG apparently feels "special".  NHQ has not addressed this in any way,
there's no verbiage anywhere which speaks to Nomex one way or another, except to authorize it for a small
percentage of the membership, so what's going on in CAWG that their risk of aircraft fire is so much higher
that it warrants requiring special, expensive clothing, yet that same risk doesn't apply to everyone who
flies in those same aircraft?

[JeffDG]

The other issue is the point that CAWG apparently feels "special". 

Not anymore.

There is no regulatory basis at the present time for CAWG to demand that flight crew-members wear nomex flightsuits.  Apparently, it such a crucial issue that the Wing didn't have the time to renew the supplements after the revisions to the underlying regulations.

[Eclipse]

The other issue is the point that CAWG apparently feels "special". 

Not anymore.

There is no regulatory basis at the present time for CAWG to demand that flight crew-members wear nomex flightsuits.  Apparently, it such a crucial issue that the Wing didn't have the time to renew the supplements after the revisions to the underlying regulations.

I know, that's what puts such an awesome and sadly typical CAP period at the end of this.

[PHall]

Per CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3, Aug 2012.

1-11.  Operational Risk Management.

c. Added.  All members participating as aircrew on training or actual missions will wear a CAP approved flight suit in accordance with CAPM 39-1.  Wear of NOMEX gloves is also strongly recommended.

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That's what the supplement says and as far as I can tell all CAP approved Flight Suits are made from NOMEX.

[wacapgh]

http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-60-3/

Shows:

California Wing CAPR 60-3 Supplement - 24 August 2012 - Expired 26 June 2013

[Storm Chaser]

Per CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3, Aug 2012.

1-11.  Operational Risk Management.

c. Added.  All members participating as aircrew on training or actual missions will wear a CAP approved flight suit in accordance with CAPM 39-1.  Wear of NOMEX gloves is also strongly recommended.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's what the supplement says and as far as I can tell all CAP approved Flight Suits are made from NOMEX.

The problem with that supplement, as mentioned earlier, is that it's expired and no longer valid. CAWG needs to submit a new supplement for NHQ approval.

That said, flight suits are expensive. Unless CAWG is issuing flight suits to all its aircrew, that's a huge burden to impose on its members.

[vento]

Per CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3, Aug 2012.

1-11.  Operational Risk Management.

c. Added.  All members participating as aircrew on training or actual missions will wear a CAP approved flight suit in accordance with CAPM 39-1.  Wear of NOMEX gloves is also strongly recommended.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's what the supplement says and as far as I can tell all CAP approved Flight Suits are made from NOMEX.

The problem with that supplement, as mentioned earlier, is that it's expired and no longer valid. CAWG needs to submit a new supplement for NHQ approval.

That said, flight suits are expensive. Unless CAWG is issuing flight suits to all its aircrew, that's a huge burden to impose on its members.

I agree it is not cheap if a member is looking for a new one, but it hadn't stopped most people from becoming aircrew. Respectfully, CAWG not issuing the flight suit to its members is not an issue in the way you think it is.

[Storm Chaser]

Per CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3, Aug 2012.

1-11.  Operational Risk Management.

c. Added.  All members participating as aircrew on training or actual missions will wear a CAP approved flight suit in accordance with CAPM 39-1.  Wear of NOMEX gloves is also strongly recommended.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's what the supplement says and as far as I can tell all CAP approved Flight Suits are made from NOMEX.

The problem with that supplement, as mentioned earlier, is that it's expired and no longer valid. CAWG needs to submit a new supplement for NHQ approval.

That said, flight suits are expensive. Unless CAWG is issuing flight suits to all its aircrew, that's a huge burden to impose on its members.

I agree it is not cheap if a member is looking for a new one, but it hadn't stopped most people from becoming aircrew. Respectfully, CAWG not issuing the flight suit to its members is not an issue in the way you think it is.

Maybe not, but if wearing a flight suit was that important or necessary, CAP would mandate it for all aircrews across the nation. 

[JeffDG]

Per CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3, Aug 2012.

1-11.  Operational Risk Management.

c. Added.  All members participating as aircrew on training or actual missions will wear a CAP approved flight suit in accordance with CAPM 39-1.  Wear of NOMEX gloves is also strongly recommended.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's what the supplement says and as far as I can tell all CAP approved Flight Suits are made from NOMEX.

The problem with that supplement, as mentioned earlier, is that it's expired and no longer valid. CAWG needs to submit a new supplement for NHQ approval.

That said, flight suits are expensive. Unless CAWG is issuing flight suits to all its aircrew, that's a huge burden to impose on its members.

I agree it is not cheap if a member is looking for a new one, but it hadn't stopped most people from becoming aircrew. Respectfully, CAWG not issuing the flight suit to its members is not an issue in the way you think it is.

Maybe not, but if wearing a flight suit was that important or necessary, CAP would mandate it for all aircrews across the nation.

And, you'd think that CAWG would actually republish their expired supplement if they thought it was at all important.

[Eclipse]

Per CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3, Aug 2012.

1-11.  Operational Risk Management.

c. Added.  All members participating as aircrew on training or actual missions will wear a CAP approved flight suit in accordance with CAPM 39-1.  Wear of NOMEX gloves is also strongly recommended.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's what the supplement says and as far as I can tell all CAP approved Flight Suits are made from NOMEX.

Which part of "invalid supplement" is difficult to understand?

I and others have pointed this out about three times.  I quoted this above and pointed out that
it would have to be updated anyway as the new 39-1 indicates no discitnion between nomex and non-nomex
jumsuits, they are both considered "flight suits" in the draft.

60-3 was updated in Dec 2012, that automatically expires all supplements and requires they be updated.

An invalid supplement is null and void. Someone is either asleep or doesn't care, either way, the result is the same.

[LSThiker]

Well how about a parachute?

Hmmmm.  I have not jumped in nearly 10 years, but sure why not, sign me up    Come on, that is a bad analogy.  Could you really imagine a senior member trying to waddle out of a Cessna with a parachute on?  He would need at least 5 minutes of prep time

It is all about "Risk Management". After 30 years as a lawman, I know lots of people who wore body armor and then I know a few that should have, but I went to their funerals instead of their weddings, anniversaries, birthday parties, etc, etc. 

This pretty much supports the idea of having aircrews wear a helmet.  Getting shot poses a serious and common risk for LE.  Blunt force trauma poses a serious and common risk for GA pilots.

[VNY]

Maybe not, but if wearing a flight suit was that important or necessary, CAP would mandate it for all aircrews across the nation.

CAWG doesn't even mandate it all the time.  Last mission I flew on I had been an MRO and got assigned to fly highbird at the last minute.  I flew on an actual SAREX in a polo shirt.  It violated no CAWG standing rules.

As it was explained to me, the nomex flight suit is only required when doing low altitude maneuvers - IE flying a search grid.  And considering who it was who moved me to the 206 I have no doubt that is the actual policy

[a2capt]

..and -every- flight involves low altitude maneuvers.

As for waddling out with prep-time?

If that aircraft is missing a wing, you may be surprised how fast people can move.

[Eclipse]

Well then that's really a double-secret rule, since it doesn't say that in the expired supp.

[Flying Pig]

Maybe not, but if wearing a flight suit was that important or necessary, CAP would mandate it for all aircrews across the nation.

CAWG doesn't even mandate it all the time.  Last mission I flew on I had been an MRO and got assigned to fly highbird at the last minute.  I flew on an actual SAREX in a polo shirt.  It violated no CAWG standing rules.

As it was explained to me, the nomex flight suit is only required when doing low altitude maneuvers - IE flying a search grid.  And considering who it was who moved me to the 206 I have no doubt that is the actual policy

You don't wear flight suits on CD ops in CAWG

[a2capt]

..and CAWG, probably not the only entity, but sure does have a lot of "un-official" rules. Stuff needs to be documented, and applied universally. Or stick it.

[PHall]

Maybe not, but if wearing a flight suit was that important or necessary, CAP would mandate it for all aircrews across the nation.

CAWG doesn't even mandate it all the time.  Last mission I flew on I had been an MRO and got assigned to fly highbird at the last minute.  I flew on an actual SAREX in a polo shirt.  It violated no CAWG standing rules.

As it was explained to me, the nomex flight suit is only required when doing low altitude maneuvers - IE flying a search grid.  And considering who it was who moved me to the 206 I have no doubt that is the actual policy

You don't wear flight suits on CD ops in CAWG

Per the requesting agency's request.