Non-Nomex Gree Flight Suit

[lordmonar]

Why?  How many flash fires have occurred in a Cessna?

It's not while flying, it's more after a potential off-field landing.  I recall reading a small memorial in a Squadron in the south section of my Group eulogizing an aircrew with such poor fortunes.  As I recall, burns were a major factor and could have been prevented with the appropriate Nomex flightsuit and gloves.

I actually subscribe to the notion, since the bulk of our 'real' searches are in some pretty forbidding territory (I know, we're more likely to become an ink-spot in an 'event'), but - why leave things to chance?

Just asking...but do you wear a flight helmet, and carry a survival vest?

a) Most death and injuries are caused by blunt force trauma to the head.
b) Assuming you survive the crash, and then ensuing fire do you have the equipment to survive until rescue?

Yes....fire is a....one of many....hazards that you can encounter while flying a CAP aircraft.   But if you got $200 to spend.....a cheap motor cycle helmet would save more lives then a Nomex Flight Suit.

YMMV.

[Bayareaflyer 44]

In response to the last two posts in reverse order (and I understand the spirit of the questions):

-  No on the flight helmet, but yes on the survival vest.  I attended CAWGs mission pilot school a while back, and they heavily recommend the survival vest approach.  I too agree with this as it does make sense to have at least something to egress that is on you, and to hope to recover what is in the plane at a later time. 
-  You are absolutely correct about published versus non-published rules.  In fact, I brought this up in a recent CLC class that was being taught by our former State Director.  In the class he was teaching, he was reinforcing the need to follow regulations because of the standardized approach to doing our work.  Having unwritten rules being a pet peeve of mine - I then asked him about the CAWG 'requirement' for aircrews to wear Nomex (I also threw the unwritten rule of the 60 HP per person requirement that all our ICs seem to follow).  He just sheepishly looked at me, stated "well, that's the way that it is" and quickly moved on.

The original reason I brought the Nomex requirement for CAWG up was quite simply that Wings may have either official, or unofficial requirements for aircrew.  For CAWG - if you want to play, you will have to pay...

[PHall]

The NOMEX requirement in CAWG came from the old PACR Sup to 60-1.
PACR's current Supplement dropped the requirement a couple of years ago and CAWG was supposed to put it in the CAWG Supplement to 60-1.
I don't know if it's in the current CAWG Supplement, but, if you show up at a SAREX or a Search Base intending to fly in anything other then a NOMEX flight suit, you won't be flying.

Questions, comments and complaints can be directed to the CAWG/CC via the CAWG/DO.

Good luck...

[Eclipse]

Neither of the CAWG supplements are enforceable as currently published as both
pre-date the reg to which they applied.

The wing could not restrict flying based on anything within those documents, and if they tried to,
the complaint would be easily sustained.

The CAWG supplement to 60-1 indicates no such requirement, nor does it mention uniforms in any way.
http://www.cawgcap.org/old/files/supplements/cawg60-1.pdf

The CAWG 60-3 supplement only does so in an indirect way, and, at a minimum, will need to be updated
as the draft 39-1 indicates that the non-Nomex blue jumpsuit will be considered a flight suit:
http://www.cawgcap.org/old/files/supplements/cawg60-3.pdf

"Added. All members participating as aircrew on training or actual missions will wear a
CAP approved flight suit in accordance with CAPM 39-1. Wear of NOMEX gloves is also
strongly recommended."

This brings up another interesting point.  What about proficiency flying and orientation rides?
Technically all CAP flying is a "mission" since every flight has a sortie attached to a mission number,
but what about the cadets?  It's OK for them to be crispy critters but we need to protect the pilot?

The flight suit is not mentioned in the CAWG 39-1 supplement, however it does define
a "sailplane uniform" with no specification that it is restricted to only the glider.

"1-5.d Added. Special Uniform for Sailplane Operations. Members may wear a CAP
distinctive shirt (Squadron shirt, activity shirt, or any approved knit golf shirt) with dark blue or
khaki shorts (hemmed) or BDU pants and tennis shoes while participating in sailplane
operations. "

A tow pilot and crew are certainly "participating in sailplane operations" when they are towing
a glider, so by the letter of this, not only is Nomex not required, but shorts and t-shirt are.

[SarDragon]

The 60-hp rule went away quite a while ago. Anyone in CAWG pushing that rule is way behind the times.

A tow pilot and crew are certainly "participating in sailplane operations" when they are towing
a glider, so by the letter of this, not only is Nomex not required, but shorts and t-shirt are.

That's playing pretty loose with the rule. BTW, not all sailplanes are launched by aircraft tow.

[Eclipse]

^ Agreed, but the rule itself is silly, and at the least, if a wing is going to drop stuff like this
on its members, it should do the full math and eliminate the loops holes and make sure the
rules are followed about updates and publishing.

i.e.
"A Nomex flight suit will be worn by all personnel aboard CAP aircraft."

[PHall]

Bob, you're most welcome to tell the CAWG/CC how messed up his Wing is.

And what do you want on your Tombstone?

[Eclipse]

Funny. Given the need or opportunity I'm sure we both know I'd have no reluctance to make my feelings known,
and if nothing else, were I on OPS staff I would at least insure the supps in my OPR were clear and current.

[PHall]

And the Tombstone is as in Tombstone pizza.  I figure you as a sausage and mushroom kind of guy!

[a2capt]

"unofficial requirements " are just bovine fecal matter.

In writing, approved through the proper methods and channels, or stick it.

"unofficial requirements" tend to be used inconsistently across the board, mostly as items of retribution as the GoB Network lets their own slide on it, but holds others in contempt on them.

[Eclipse]

And the Tombstone is as in Tombstone pizza.  I figure you as a sausage and mushroom kind of guy!

Mushrooms? On pizza? Eww...

Pepperoni please!

[Flying Pig]

The issue of flight suits has always been an interesting one.  I always wore on when I flew in CAP along with Nomex gloves.  No, I didn't wear a helmet.  The cockpit of a 182 or a 206 wasn't very supportive of one.   When I flew my work 206 I wore a helmet because of my NVGs.   There really isn't much room for it.   Depending on size obviously.

At work, again, Nomex suit, gloves and helmet.  Where I worked before in CA, that also included a full survival vest with PFDs.  Where I am now in FL, we wear PFDs.  No real need for a remote area type survival vest.   But when we fly the airplane its usually just the flight suit and a head set.   If the Sheriff himself is being transported somewhere, its treated more like a VIP op, and its slacks and polo shirts.   I really cant tell you why we go full bore with the helicopters and basic with the airplanes.  I would wear the flight suit with the VIP transports, but for whatever reason the boss wants the pilots in dress clothes. 

My thought for CAP is nomex suit and gloves at minimum.  Yes, the suits do get old and worn, but I unless CAP wants to start issuing them, members do what they can when they have an extra $200 laying around (yeah OK)    And be careful of the cheap knock offs.... like the Tru Spec 80% cotton jump suit.   If you are going to buy a cheap cotton mix suit just to look like you have one, you are going to be miserable. 

[VNY]

My thought for CAP is nomex suit and gloves at minimum.  Yes, the suits do get old and worn, but I unless CAP wants to start issuing them, members do what they can when they have an extra $200 laying around (yeah OK)    And be careful of the cheap knock offs.... like the Tru Spec 80% cotton jump suit.   If you are going to buy a cheap cotton mix suit just to look like you have one, you are going to be miserable.

The only reason for not wearing real nomex would be cost - and sage green flight suits can be had on Ebay for like $20, so its not an issue.  You will pay more to put the insignia on it than you will for the suit itself.

For those who have to wear blue it is.

[jayleswo]

Suggested reading by DuPoint, the manufacturer of Nomex:

http://www.dupont.com/products-and-services/personal-protective-equipment/thermal-protective/brands/nomex/faqs/nomex-industrial.html

The reasons I wear a Nomex flight suit
1. CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3 requires it
2. The safety benefit the Nomex material provides for an inflight or post crash fire where every second counts (ref DuPont link). Inflight fires are rare. Postcrash fires are not and if the crash is otherwise survivable, I want any protection I can get. Like Boss Hawk, I knew the guys who lost their lives in two of the CAWG crashes.  Joe Lawrence survived the crash but with serious burns to unprotected areas. He was actually wearing BDU's underneath his flight suit since he wasn't really planning on flying that day. This was his very first flight as a Mission Scanner Trainee.
3. Synthetic fabrics can melt to your skin in a fire which only makes a bad situation much worse. Most (all?) other CAP uniforms (BDU's, polo, service dress, etc.) include synthetic fabrics such as polyester or nylon.
4. Pockets to put stuff in
5. I don't mind getting my flight suit dirty.  Other clothing is not as amenable to surviving the abuse I put my flight suit through.
6. It is all about safety, ORM and reducing/managing risks. That's what pilots and aircrew in CAP are trained to do. Some may argue the cost/benefit question, others the need. Yet, I see people willingly spend $200 on boots or a tactical vest or their favorite doo dad. And yes, for 'mission flying' I wear a Nomex CWU-45/P flight jacket, Nomex gloves, good black leather boots, survival vest and cotton everything else if you must know.

So, lots of opinions on this. This is mine and the reasons for it.

John

[JeffDG]

The reasons I wear a Nomex flight suit
1. CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3 requires it

CAWG has no currently operative supplement to 60-3

http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-60-3/

[Flying Pig]

The thing that irritates me the most with people wearing flight suits is when they treat them like work coveralls instead of a uniform.   Ive worn flight suits for 10+ years on a daily basis and there is no reason whatsoever to look like a sack of trash.  Just a reminder. 

[Panache]

[SarDragon]

All of the above!

[PHall]

They're called "Jet Jammies" for a reason!

[Mitchell 1969]

  I would wear the flight suit with the VIP transports, but for whatever reason the boss wants the pilots in dress clothes.   

FWIW, I was a "police boss" for quite a while and did my share of riding in LE aircraft. Had I seen a LE flight crew wearing anything other than a flight suit I would have thought "Wow! How exceedingly odd!" (Or something closely related thereto).

I wonder, though - in your case, is it REALLY the boss's preference? Or some staff weenie guessing how things oughta be?