Do you think CAP is part of the military and why

Started by JArvey, January 15, 2011, 05:03:39 AM

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Do you think CAP is part of the military and why

Yes
31 (27.9%)
No
71 (64%)
Mayby (Yes and No)
9 (8.1%)

Total Members Voted: 111

The CyBorg is destroyed

^^^

First, the AF DOES care how we look and conduct ourselves...all the uniform trials and tribulations of the past 20 years are proof of that.  Also, go onto an installation and fail to salute a senior military officer and see what that gets you.

I see no reason why the MARS support for the AF could not be folded into the CAP Communications purview.

But, RM's post reinforces what I have long believed about the schizoid nature of the CAP organisation, especially since the mid-1990s.

However, I strenuously disagree with him that those who do care about uniform issues have a "paramilitary obsession."
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

RiverAux

No.  Why?  Because every legal definition of "military" found in US law says otherwise.

On a sidenote, as I proposed in another thread, CAP as an organization is almost always on an AFAM of some sort somewhere in the country so on the national level can be considered to be AF Aux at all times.  Only individual members can be said to be or not to be on an AFAM at any given time.  But, since the AuxOn/AuxOff concept only matters to the individual member, and not to any relevant aspect of how CAP conducts business, it is sort of a moot point. 

DrJbdm

Radioman has long been anti military when it comes to CAP wearing USAF uniforms and having any sort of a military mindset or structure. His responces do not surprise me.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: DrJbdm on January 16, 2011, 12:09:02 AM
Radioman has long been anti military when it comes to CAP wearing USAF uniforms and having any sort of a military mindset or structure. His responces do not surprise me.

I know.

River makes an interesting point though about the AuxOn/Off status.

In a nutshell, under legal and statutory definitions of "military:" NO.

But are we organised and operate under a military-derived structure?: YES.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

manfredvonrichthofen

CAP may be considered by some to be under DOD, whether we really are or not, I don't know. However, we are not in the military, there are quite a few pamphlets and texts in CAP that say so. I do however know we are an Auxiliary to the USAF which is military and therefore we should behave as if we are military, and that is to say we should act like we are in the military by showing proper military bearing and perform our jobs with military precision. Also we should wear our uniforms with military pride and show that we are professionals worthy of being considered military. Also we should not go around telling people that we are military. Be a professional, act like you are in the military, and let people know who we really are and they will see us in a much better light, whether we really are military or not, they may stop seeing any difference between us and the military.

JArvey

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 16, 2011, 12:56:52 AM
CAP may be considered by some to be under DOD, whether we really are or not, I don't know. However, we are not in the military, there are quite a few pamphlets and texts in CAP that say so. I do however know we are an Auxiliary to the USAF which is military and therefore we should behave as if we are military, and that is to say we should act like we are in the military by showing proper military bearing and perform our jobs with military precision. Also we should wear our uniforms with military pride and show that we are professionals worthy of being considered military. Also we should not go around telling people that we are military. Be a professional, act like you are in the military, and let people know who we really are and they will see us in a much better light, whether we really are military or not, they may stop seeing any difference between us and the military.
Im not trying to say that your lieing, but what pamphlets does it say that we are?

nesagsar

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 15, 2011, 06:35:35 PM

AF Instruction 10-2701, defines who we are in the eyes of the AF:
".........The Civil Air Patrol (CAP) is a Federally chartered non-profit corporation that may be utilized as a civilian volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) can employ the services of CAP in lieu of or to supplement Air Force resources to fulfill the non-combat programs and missions of the Air Force. Such services may include Air Force-assigned missions (AFAMs) in support of homeland security operations, consequence management, support to civilian law enforcement, and other civil support. Certain CAP cadet and aerospace educational programs may also be approved and assigned as Air Force non-combat missions. When performing Air Force-assigned programs and missions, CAP assets function as an auxiliary of the Air Force. CAP is not authorized to perform AFAMs outside of the territories of the United States and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico without specific authorization.......".


What I get from this is that CAP is a part of the United States Air Force just like anyone else but under volunteer status at all times. Nothing in that text states that the only tasks we can do for the Air Force is SAR/DR. The Air Force can ask CAP to perform any function other than combat as long as it is designated an Air Force Mission. CAP members also have the right to refuse participation in those missions under their rights as volunteers. In a time of true emergency the Air Force could assign CAP members to anything other than combat as long as the paperwork is filled out correctly. That could include combat support functions such as logistics readiness or it could include community outreach programs through aerospace education. All it needs is an Air Force mission assignment and CAP members willing to do it. The hard part is in convincing military commanders to utilize us as an asset in areas that we aren't currently active, maybe remind them of all the good work we did in WW2.

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: JArvey on January 16, 2011, 03:46:57 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 16, 2011, 12:56:52 AM
CAP may be considered by some to be under DOD, whether we really are or not, I don't know. However, we are not in the military, there are quite a few pamphlets and texts in CAP that say so. I do however know we are an Auxiliary to the USAF which is military and therefore we should behave as if we are military, and that is to say we should act like we are in the military by showing proper military bearing and perform our jobs with military precision. Also we should wear our uniforms with military pride and show that we are professionals worthy of being considered military. Also we should not go around telling people that we are military. Be a professional, act like you are in the military, and let people know who we really are and they will see us in a much better light, whether we really are military or not, they may stop seeing any difference between us and the military.
Im not trying to say that your lieing, but what pamphlets does it say that we are?
One of the recruiting pamphlets has a question, something like do I have a military obligation, or something to the effect, and it says no, that CAP while it is the USAF Aux, there is no military obligation, or something to the effect, I just can't remember what is says exactly. It is one of the tall one page pamphlets.


JoeTomasone

Quote from: FARRIER on January 16, 2011, 05:08:57 AM

Definition: Paramilitary

http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/paramilitary.htm


This is what I was going to say.

We are always Paramilitary, sometimes acting as a Congressionally-chartered corporation, sometimes as the USAF Auxiliary; but always civilian, never military.

I, personally, am proud of our wartime history, our affiliation with USAF and being a part of their team, and thusly being permitted to wear USAF uniforms, and, yes, practice military customs and courtesies.   However, I always remember precisely who we are in relation to the actual military, and consider it a privilege to work alongside our military brethren when needed.   


spacecommand

I say it depends on what you mean by "part of".

I think most can agree we ARE NOT the Military. 

But doesn't necessarily mean we are not "part of" the military depending on how someone defines "part of".

Does having an asset available to you to do things when you need, make you "part of" the team or something?  If doing SAR missions on air force assigned missions, make us a "part of" the air force (eg the air force auxiliary)?

Not sure how or what the OP is trying to ellict.



manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 16, 2011, 05:15:36 AM
I, personally, am proud of our wartime history, our affiliation with USAF and being a part of their team, and thusly being permitted to wear USAF uniforms, and, yes, practice military customs and courtesies.   However, I always remember precisely who we are in relation to the actual military, and consider it a privilege to work alongside our military brethren when needed.
I have to say, I am very proud to hear someone other than me say that in the open. I imagine were history to repeat itself things would happen along the same lines as they did the last time an enemy tried coming close to our soil. Personally I think it could happen, I would be scarred like a child if it were to happen, but were it to I would imagine CAP would be used rather closely to the same way it was in WWII. Granted there would be some serious changes happen all at once with no phase in time for Reg changes. Were it to happen I would then think that the idea of CAP being military would change drastically. Until that happens though I do not think that CAP should be considered "in the military", however I would say that we are a "sister of the military?"

For now, be happy with what we are and don't try to make CAP out to be anything more than it is, a powerful asset to our country as it is, an Auxiliary to the USAF, an asset to the lost citizens of our country, and a great tool to mold our youth to be great citizens and examples to those to come.

Thrashed

It's the CAP not MAP.  "C" stands for civil:

civ·il   /ˈsɪvəl/  Show Spelled
[siv-uhl]  Show IPA

–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of citizens: civil life; civil society.
2. of the commonwealth or state: civil affairs.
3. of citizens in their ordinary capacity, or of the ordinary life and affairs of citizens, as distinguished from military and ecclesiastical life and affairs.

Save the triangle thingy

manfredvonrichthofen

What I want to know is why some of you have such a hatred of CAP having an affiliation with the military? It seems to me and I know I am not alone on this, that some hate CAP having a connection with USAF, hate the uniforms, hate the C&C and D&C. Why?

BillB

Thrash
The only reason CAP is the CIVIL Air Patrol is, is was organized under the Office of Civil Defense. That lasted a year when it was moved under the War Department. CAP has operated under military command until the 1980s and 90s when USAF downsized and the CAP Corporation took over.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

FW

^BillB, I like your (very) watered down description.  However, history aside, CAP is no longer "controlled" by the Air Force.  However, the Air Force has considerable influence over our operations. After all, they still control our annual grant.  The SECAF also directly appoints four members of the BoG and, jointly appoints 3 others with the CAP/CC. 

CAP decides for itself what missions it will perform.  The Air Force only allows payment or reimbursement for those missions it deems "worthy".  If CAP had it's own real method of fund raising, like the BSA, Air Force influence would be minimal.  It is only due to our patriotism and desire to continue our affiliation with the Air Force we continue to serve as their auxiliary.  Public law defines our relationship however,  our annual grant sustains the relationship.  If the money goes away, so do we.  This year, we loose 20% of our operating budget and, almost all of our aircraft purchasing money.  Next year?  Who knows. 

To answer the question; NO, CAP is not "part of the military".  We do "support" them and, we are privileged to wear the (modified) AF uniform, if able and willing. 


Eclipse

Considering the answer is both "yes" and "no', an individual's way of responding is probably more important than their answer.

Anyone who answers in one word doesn't know enough about the evolving situation to have an informed opinion.

Those people who assert too forcefully that CAP is part of the military don't "get it".

Those people who assert too forcefully that CAP isn't  part of the military don't "get it".

"That Others May Zoom"

N Harmon

I try to act and behave as though everything I do reflects on our parent military service. Whether CAP is part of the military or not isn't important to me. What matters is I have an opportunity to serve my country.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

commando1

I think of CAP as the CIVILIAN Auxiliary. If we were military than we would be subject to the UCMJ. If we were military then we would probably have some issues with 12 year old cadets. We act as PART of the military at some points (during a SAR mission) but we are only an auxiliary. I think of it as the Police Explorer program. As an Explorer are you a police officer? No, but you might dress in the same uniform, carry some of the same gear, ride in a patrol car, etc. The phrase "civilian auxiliary" sums us up well. My 2 cents anyway.  8)
Non Timebo Mala

Major Carrales

Fact is this is a specious point and moot.  We are the Civil Air Patrol...the US Air Force Auxiliary.  We have defined missions, a national structure and the support of our Government.  The idea of "part of the military" needs to be looked at for what it is this instance...a throw away phrase.

We are what we are truly...nothing more and nothing less than the personnel in our units and the deeds we do in support of our mission.  The idea of "part of the military" is so vague a phrase that we might well examine it...is a flower in landscaping at a military installation "part of the military?  How 'bout a stripe on the road or stop sign at an intersection on a Naval Air Station?  What about blades of grass at an Air force Base?  A ham in a freezer at a Post Exchange?

See, the phrase is somewhat ambiguous.  Yet, many of my brother and sister CAP members are ready to go to blows over it.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454