Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[Chappie]

We do an opening prayer in my unit too, which doesn't necessarily bother me.  However, lately, the Chaplain has started asking for prayer requests, which to me crosses into an unacceptable level of religiosity.  It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not.  I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting.

I am a regular church goer, and don't have a problem with an invocation either. But prayer requests are not appropriate. If someone has one, they can seek out the chaplain when time becomes available. It doesn't need to be addressed for all attendees of the meeting. And not everyone wants to bring up requests for all attending either.

I wholeheartedly concur with this.  Unless I have been briefed by the Commander (regardless of what level) about a specific need that should be included in the prayer, taking prayer requests (IMHO) should not take place.  Most of the time when a member has approached me and asked about having prayer for a need/concern that affords me the opportunity to pray with that person individually (provided that is what the person has indicated) or encourage the person with the knowledge that I will be keeping them in my prayers.

[PHall]

Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?

As a DCC, I really don't like the pledge.  During my time in the military, I never once said the pledge.  As a military cadet program with an Air Force heritage, I find an opening formation with a retreat ceremony to be a more appropriate way to start meetings and honor the flag.

When you were in the military you didn't say the pledge because you had already sworn to "Protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic" when you enlisted/accepted your commission.

[Flying Pig]

I grew up in church, still attend, my father is a pastor and former CAP chaplain.  When our Chaplain is present, I have him do an opening invocation.  He is an Anglican Chaplain.  However, we do not do prayer requests.  If someone needs to meet with the Chaplain in private, that would be appropriate.  I do not attend CAP to attend church.

Now, OK....if we had a member who was in the hospital, and the Chaplain throws in a "heal Joe" in the prayer, OK.  However, that too can run you into issues.  For example, I am a Christian.  I dont want or need (example) a Muslim Chaplain praying for me.  So you gotta be aware.  So the best bet is to just keep it simple if your going to do it.

[simon]

Thank you everybody for the wide range of responses. In particular:


DogCollar,

In response to your questions:

"1.  Do you have a squadron chaplain?"

We did until about a year ago. He became very sick and stopped attending.

"2.  Is the squadron chaplain officially a part of the CAP Chaplain Corps?  I have noticed that a few squadrons have had the practice of a local clergy person coming in to be a part of meetings, performing "official" chaplain duties, but who have not gone through channels of having that person go through the process of becoming a CAP Chaplain.  This practice raises significant issues for the organization."

He is retired from the Navy and was a chaplain there. I believe he had been a CAP member for many years. I do not know whether he went through the CAP chaplain process. I assume so. I never witnessed him doing anything openly religious in the squadron. He was a passive participant. This thing that happened last night was a first from a member, who is the PDO officer and now deputy commander.

"3.  What is the commanders intent of instituting the  practice?"

I do not know. I thought I would go to CAP Talk and raise the question to get CAP community feedback first.

"4.  Was the Wing Chaplain consulted?"

I do not know. At this point our squadron is chaplain-less. My view is that the PDO officer is taking it upon herself to maintaining a sense of spirituality in the absence of a chaplain. She used to speak highly of the chaplain when he was there. I think they were close.

"5.  Are you planning to raise this as an issue to your squadron commander?"

I am in two minds about it. I think it will hinder growth of the squadron. That concerns me. We need to feed the squadron with new, younger members who are fit enough to act as air and ground crew. Many young people today are not religious, do not pray and in my view if they attend a CAP meeting and have to sit through a prayer, they will feel uncomfortable and will not come back. That is just my opinion. I could be wrong.


Rotorhead,

"An invocation is common at many public gatherings, from meetings to NASCAR races."

True.

"If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place."

I disagree that being uncomfortable with prayer means that a person is not serious about being a CAP member. 1 in 7 adults are non religious. 1 in 5 under 30 years old. You just excluded them.


nesagsar,

"It wouldnt stop me from joining but I would be looking for a different squadron rather than that one."

Agreed. I want the squadron to grow and feel that this will limit growth.


disamuel

"wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?"

We do. Always. This came right afterwards.


BrianH76,

"It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not.  I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting."

Agreed.


Chappie

"Can you point me to the 2010 document you referred to???"

It is R265-1 dated 15 October 2009: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf


Marshalus,

"I guess I'm tolerant enough not to care, until someone tries to force it on me."

Positive attitude. I just don't want a prospective member to not come back because they weren't comfortable with it.

[simon]

It comes back to why the Civil Air Patrol exists, why people join, what kind of people join and whether having a prayer at the meetings fits with all this.

CAP exists for three reasons:

1. Emergency Services
2. Cadet Programs
3. Aerospace Education

People join to participate in one or more of these areas. I am in it for emergency services. Aerospace education could also be pretty interesting, although it is not my area. Cadets do what they do and that is fine - it is a great program. I just don't know how well prayer fits in, at least to commence a seniors meeting safety meeting, like it did last night.

I guess the problem I am having as I sat through the prayer is that there are several good and enthusiastic pilots I know that I have considered bringing along to a CAP meeting so see whether they might be interested. I have held off because some of them are very busy with their work and families, so putting up with the CAP paperwork and training to get their way through to the point where they could actually fly as a mission pilot might be too much committment for them (All CAP pilots know it seems to take forever between joining CAP and actually getting rated as a mission pilot). Some of them are definitely not religious. I am pretty sure the prayer thing would be enough to put them off. My thought last night was that I wouldn't even invite them to come along if this was going to be a regular thing.

[Chappie]

Simon wrote:

Chappie

"Can you point me to the 2010 document you referred to???"

It is R265-1 dated 15 October 2009: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf

Thanks.  That clears it up --- the 12 processes were found in the CAPP 265-4 "The Chaplain Service Handbook" (1994) and the 2010 document you referred to is the CAPR 265-1 - The Chaplain Corps Regulation.   The Handbook is being revised/updated since it is really dated and there have been significant changes in the CAP Chaplain Corps since it was published.   Once all the changes have taken place (i.e. the Form 34 reporting process), the CAPP 265-4 will be released.

The Chaplain Corps Handbook (pamphlet) simply fleshes out the content found in the regulation.

[vmstan]

For example, I am a Christian.  I dont want or need (example) a Muslim Chaplain praying for me.

Exactly the reason why I'm not affiliated with anything. While I have studied various faiths to understand their view of the world, I still fail to see why that should matter. If someone wants to pray that you get better, I cannot understand why that would be a horrible thing. While I don't feel that the prayer goes anywhere otherworldly, any type of positive energy directed your way can only help... plus it makes the people doing it feel better about the situation.

[DogCollar]

This has been a very respectful, insightful and educational thread for me.  I just want to let everyone know how much I appreciate the responses to the original poster.

[Rotorhead]

"If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place."

I disagree that being uncomfortable with prayer means that a person is not serious about being a CAP member. 1 in 7 adults are non religious. 1 in 5 under 30 years old. You just excluded them.

Nope, I am "non-religious." But observing this custom did not keep me from joining the squadron.

Anyone who would overlook the merits of a good unit because of this 30 seconds at the top of the meeting is only punishing themselves.

And as I stated, the unit to which I refer is growing so quickly they can barely keep up. No evidence that an invocation is "scaring people away" or whatever.

[AirAux]

I for one think someone is just stirring the pot, but with that said..  I would like to see the cite for the 1 in 5 young people are not religious and some definitions to go with that.  That said, with my years involved with aviation, I have found very, very, few pilots that didn't believe in God.  It's hard to get airborn and enjoy the wonders of the world from aloft and then deny that there is a God involved in the overall beauty and wonder of it all..  Further, if you disbanded all of the units associated with and supported by Churches, you would have a severe decrease ibn active squadrons.  More squadrons meet in Churches than on military bases..

[RADIOMAN015]

Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".

I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.

Is this common at CAP meetings?

I am concerned that this will drive new members away.

It is NOT common place at typical squadron meetings.

It's bad enough we have to endure the prayers at Wing Conferences and the like (the Chaplain really has a challenge to not interject his or her religious beliefs into the prayer  -- How about just trying this -- now ladies & gentlemen lets have a moment of silence for personal reflection ) .

For the sake of argument -- There's no regulation that says an atheist can't join Civil Air Patrol.   It is possible that most senior members of a squadron are atheist or just don't really have an interest in any formal religion.   

CAP moral leadership program is NOT about religion anyways.  That whole portion the program has gotten members jumping through hoops to provide "official" transcripts, get letters from clergy,etc.   IF a member doesn't volunteer as the MLO because of the hoop jumping invented at National Hq to prove they are "worthy",  than the Commander has to perform the function, and he could be a retired truck driver with absolutely no education.  Sheer silliness. :angel:   

Lets be sure that we keep our priorities straight:  Aerospace Education, Cadet Program, & Emergency Services.  It doesn't mean a formal prayer that our members must endure every week at our meetings.  That is wrong & you should talk with your commander about it and if that fails put in an IG complaint.  It looks likes one of your members has gone over the edge on this!
RM

[RiverAux]

It would be my preference not to have any religious functions within CAP, but since we do and since it has been an established part of the program for so long, I don't have much heartburn about it.  I wouldn't go out of my way to find someone to lead the unit in a opening prayer, but if someone wanted to lead one, I'd let them (when I was a squadron commander).   

[Major Carrales]

We do the Pledge, Cadet Oath (for cadets of course) and the "moment of silence" to begin meetings.  Its respectful and inclusive...invites participation and unity, but makes no "call" on denomiational or other religious conviction.

[Rotorhead]

Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".

I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.

Is this common at CAP meetings?

I am concerned that this will drive new members away.

It is NOT common place at typical squadron meetings.

It's bad enough we have to endure the prayers at Wing Conferences and the like

"Endure?"

Wow.

[dwb]

Yes, endure.  For people who are non-religious, sitting through religious ceremonies, even simple things like invocations/benedictions, can be uncomfortable.

And, given the length of some of the invocations/benedictions I've sat through, even the religious people in the crowd would use the word "endure".

[sarflyer]

Dan,

I think the word "endure" has a negative annotation to it.  I'm not really sure there is "nice" way to put it.

The moral leadership program is an very important part of the program.  The values it teaches are invaluable.  Especially in these days where our young adults are getting less caring about others and more importantly themselves.

I respect your first amendment right to say and believe what you want because I truly believe in that right but I will never agree with you.

[davidsinn]

Dan,

I think the word "endure" has a negative annotation to it.  I'm not really sure there is "nice" way to put it.

The moral leadership program is an very important part of the program.  The values it teaches are invaluable.  Especially in these days where our young adults are getting less caring about others and more importantly themselves.

I respect your first amendment right to say and believe what you want because I truly believe in that right but I will never agree with you.

Character development as it's now called has zip to do with religion nor should it have.  I consider religion to be a very personal thing. I keep my beliefs to myself and I appreciate it when others do the same. I don't much care what religion you associate with or don't associate with in the case of atheists.

Enduring would be the proper term. If you feel the need to have a prayer that is your right to free exercise but I ask that you do it somewhere else as my right to free exercise means I don't have to have anything to do with your exercising of religious rights. I would not take offense if you asked me to join you but I would most likely decline.

A prayer before a dinner or banquet is one thing but to open every meeting with one is going a bit too far in my opinion.

[tdepp]

My own personal preference would be to have no religious activities within CAP.  We're in the body saving business, not the soul saving business (and yes, cadets and aerospace education too).  Government and religion is an uneasy relationship.

But having said that, our Chaplin program is a well established and an important part of our program that serves the very useful purpose of counseling people during a terrible time in their life and assisting our own members (and as I have read elsewhere here on CT, even USAF personnel).  The Chaplins I've met in our squadron and wing are absolutely wonderful people and are respectful of others' beliefs and non-beliefs.  I think they provide a very good service to the public and our members.

Respect is the key.  I need to respect the beliefs of my more religious colleagues.  And they need to respect my beliefs or non-beliefs.  (Full disclosure: I am an agnostic and Buddhist.  I view Buddhism as a philosophy and not a religion.  Obviously, many Buddhists view it as a religion.  It is one of our ongoing debates.  )

My squadron doesn't do an invocation before the start of meetings but we do prayers during formal dinners.  I would be uncomfortable with an invocation but if short and sweet and inclusive, I'd live with it.  A moment of silence would be a better way to go if we had to do anything.  We try to steer away from religious discussions as we have, um, er, a wide variety of beliefs and non-beliefs in our squadron and arguing about religion only hurts peoples' feelings and gets in the way of doing our missions.  I've had some short but ugly discussions about Muslims with some of our members that only served to tick me off.  (I've spent time in the Middle East and have several Arab-American friends and clients, both Christian and Muslim, so it can be a touchy subject.)

Anyway, as Buckaroo Banzai said, "Hey, hey, hey, hey-now. Don't be mean; we don't have to be mean, cuz, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. "  So don't be mean and respect your fellow CAP members' beliefs and non-beliefs.

[Major Lord]

Yes, endure.  For people who are non-religious, sitting through religious ceremonies, even simple things like invocations/benedictions, can be uncomfortable.

And, given the length of some of the invocations/benedictions I've sat through, even the religious people in the crowd would use the word "endure".

Just out of curiosity, do you get physical burns from Holy water? 

Major Lord

[NIN]

WIWAC, our unit chaplain was a pretty solid Baptist minister who (IMHO) fairly heavily proselytized to the unit.   I still think he's a fantastic chaplain and learned to filter out his "before and after" sermonizing.  No biggie.

Of course, it was during one of his ML sessions that I learned what an "agnostic" is, and why I am one

WRT the pledge at meetings: I once got dinged on an IG inspection because my cadets did not recite the pledge at opening formation. I informed the IG (quite professionally) that the pledge was not customarily said in formation while in uniform. (Besides, there is no place in the regulations that suggests that's a required activity, so I asked him quite point-blank: why are you breaking our shoes over this?)

He went on to do his usual spiel about having been a cadet in the 1950s and all this. And I said "And that still does nothing about why you want me to go against the customary rules of the military as it pertains the the pledge in formation."   Then he dropped my favorite bomb: "Its in the regulations."

I dropped all 5 lbs of the "Book of Maxwell" on the table in front of him, said "here's our up-to-date reg set.  Please show me the requirement to say the pledge at the beginning of each meeting.."

He was unable.