CAP Talk

Straw poll here in conjunction with the "CAP Culture" thread.    What say you all?

Define "uniform nazi".

Quote from: N Harmon on March 11, 2009, 12:04:31 AM
Define "uniform nazi".

Changed it.

If you are gonna wear a uniform, you should wear it correctly with no half-measures.  If not, don't wear it.  Kick people out who habitually fail to wear it properly and either refuse to fix it, or stop wearing it.

IMO... C&C gets goofy within CAP given the typical situation... I wouldn't overdo it... Some units could simply skip it with no issues.

QuoteWe should enforce both because we are the Auxiliary of the Air Force and should adopt their standards.

Did you mean adopt AF standard?  We've already adopted the standards of the Aux of the AF.

From what I see,

The egregious offenses are coming from those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms improperly.

And while wearing the Air Force style uniform, they do not observe customs and courtesies, or they observe improperly.

From my experience, those members who wear CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are almost always in compliance with 39-1.  Mainly, of course, because the rules for wearing CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are not as restrictive or detailed.

So the heavy "enforcement" should rain down on those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms, and rain down hard.

Quote from: DG on March 11, 2009, 04:30:03 AM
From what I see,

The egregious offenses are coming from those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms improperly.

And while wearing the Air Force style uniform, they do not observe customs and courtesies, or they observe improperly.

From my experience, those members who wear CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are almost always in compliance with 39-1.  Mainly, of course, because the rules for wearing CAP distinctive corporate uniforms are not as restrictive or detailed.

So the heavy "enforcement" should rain down on those who are wearing Air Force style uniforms, and rain down hard.

Oh, I've seen many a nasty Corporate Uniform out there too.

The feeling seems to be, it's not the "military" uniform so there are no rules.

And I'm all for enforcing the rules equally on everybody. If you're wearing a uniform, then wear it correctly, period.

There's also no "relief" from customs and courtesies just because you're in a distinctive uniform.  You may not get as many salutes on a military base, but internal to CAP, they all apply, "sirs", salutes, and all.

I have been in several situations as both a cadet and a SM where I was in a position over someone that ranked me. During my stint as Cadet Commander, I had six or seven cadet officers that out ranked me...several of them out ranked me by a mile. Did that matter? No. When I gave orders, they followed them. In the same sentence, I never pushed it. I gave them the same customs and courtesies that I did when I was not in a position above them and they did the same. It's not about being formal, but giving each other respect. I knew if I gave an order, it would be followed. I also knew if they disagreed with an order that they would have no problems telling me why (and oh boy did they tell me) and they would still comply with my order if I decided that it should stand. I say again, it is about respect not formality. Several of these members out rank me or are lower in rank than me now, but I will respect them no differently than I did two years ago.

Respect the rank (grade), but also respect the person. Don't go around calling your subordinates by their first name and expect that they don't do the same. If you want to call each other by your first names, fine, do it behind closed doors and especially not around the cadets or the public.

In military terms think of it this way, if a combat arms instructor is a USAF SSgt (E-5) was teaching a 2d Lt how to shoot a M9 Beretta, would the 2d Lt have to listen to the SSgt and obey his/her commands? By all means yes! If the Lt didn't, they would get in a lot of trouble in no time flat. But that SSgt still has to abide by the same customs and courtesies that he/she had to five minutes before that Lt became his/her student.

My standing policy is, and always will be, that I will call everyone by their Grade and Last Name (i.e. Cadet Smith or Lt Smart), but behind closed doors (figuratively speaking) I will call them by whatever they want to be called whether it be Grade and Name or just Name. In the same environment, I have no problem them calling me by my given name but when that environment changes from private to public that changes back. I think of it as public vs private settings. I have this way of thinking because I don't want to be called Mr. or TFO outside of CAP. I also don't want to be called just by my given name during an awards ceremony at which I am receiving a professional development award that I worked hard for. Just my humble opinion.

If a 12 year old cadet can wear a uniform properly and comply with our custom and courtesy standards, then why can't our Senior Members do the same?

QuoteEnforce uniforms, but leave the saluting jazz and the "sir" at home.

Who is the guy who gets saluted and called "sir" at home?  :o  That's just the other side of bizarre. 

What?  You don't line your kids up outside their rooms standing at attention for barracks inspection?  :D >:D

In my humble opinion customs, courtesies and correct uniform wear should be required for all members not just cadets. How can we as an organization expect the cadets to do one thing when we as senior members do something else? As for the CSU well if worn properly it reflects a professional image to the AF and public, that also goes hand in hand with customs and courtesies. The public  generally can't tell the difference between our uniforms.

Quote from: tarheel gumby on March 11, 2009, 06:15:10 PM
In my humble opinion customs, courtesies and correct uniform wear should be required for all members not just cadets. How can we as an organization expect the cadets to do one thing when we as senior members do something else? As for the CSU well if worn properly it reflects a professional image to the AF and public, that also goes hand in hand with customs and courtesies. The public  generally can't tell the difference between our uniforms.

If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

Quote from: Cecil DP on March 11, 2009, 07:10:35 PM
If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

^  ???

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 11, 2009, 07:22:29 PM

Quote from: Cecil DP on March 11, 2009, 07:10:35 PM
If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

Not true at all.  As a member of a squadron, I am subordinate to the Squadron CC (and probably others depending on my position).  The Squadron CC is subordinate to the Group CC, who is subordinate to the Wing CC... You get the point.  Chain of command means someone is always subordinate to someone!

And some of us are just insubordinate!  ;D

Quote from: Gunner C on March 11, 2009, 05:11:12 PM

QuoteEnforce uniforms, but leave the saluting jazz and the "sir" at home.

Who is the guy who gets saluted and called "sir" at home?  :o  That's just the other side of bizarre. 

Actually, my 8 year old daughter does on occasion when I am in uniform and getting ready to leave.

Yes, she wants to join.  :)

Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 12, 2009, 01:54:07 AM

Quote from: Gunner C on March 11, 2009, 05:11:12 PM

QuoteEnforce uniforms, but leave the saluting jazz and the "sir" at home.

Who is the guy who gets saluted and called "sir" at home?  :o  That's just the other side of bizarre. 

Actually, my 8 year old daughter does on occasion when I am in uniform and getting ready to leave.

Yes, she wants to join.  :)

I can attest to that.

Bottom line: If you're going to wear the Air Force uniform, you'd better play by the Air Force's rules. To boot, if you're going to teach cadets, you'd better lead by example.

Diamonds 15 years ago, oak leaves now, nothing's different for me. Former cadets may be among the most vehement about this.

Quote from: winterg on March 11, 2009, 09:46:39 PM

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 11, 2009, 07:22:29 PM

Quote from: Cecil DP on March 11, 2009, 07:10:35 PM
If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

Not true at all.  As a member of a squadron, I am subordinate to the Squadron CC (and probably others depending on my position).  The Squadron CC is subordinate to the Group CC, who is subordinate to the Wing CC... You get the point.  Chain of command means someone is always subordinate to someone!

And some of us are just insubordinate!  ;D

But in reality doesn't the chain of command vary depending on skills?  If I outrank the IC during a mission he is not under my chain of command.  So there are members that are in charge of various things at different times but chain of command not so much.

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 12, 2009, 02:28:33 AM

Quote from: winterg on March 11, 2009, 09:46:39 PM

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 11, 2009, 07:22:29 PM

Quote from: Cecil DP on March 11, 2009, 07:10:35 PM
If you can't or won't follow customs and courtesies, why should you expect your subordinates to??

I thought Cadets were the only subordinates in CAP?

Not true at all.  As a member of a squadron, I am subordinate to the Squadron CC (and probably others depending on my position).  The Squadron CC is subordinate to the Group CC, who is subordinate to the Wing CC... You get the point.  Chain of command means someone is always subordinate to someone!

And some of us are just insubordinate!  ;D

But in reality doesn't the chain of command vary depending on skills?  If I outrank the IC during a mission he is not under my chain of command.  So there are members that are in charge of various things at different times but chain of command not so much.

The chain of command exists even in places where the one in charge is outranked by a subordinate... or a passenger.

On Air Force One, when the President is aboard, who's actually in charge? It's not the President. It's the pilot. That's not to say the President has authority, but in the situation, a subordinate becomes superior because of responsibility.

Same goes in CAP -- a subordinate may become a superior in a situation in which the subordinate has responsibility. Doesn't mean the superior isn't rendered proper honors by the subordinate, but it does mean the superior understands his role is not guaranteed by grade.

With 85% supporting enforcing uniform wear and C&C, this seems to be one of the more lopsided polls I've ever seen on Captalk.  This is one of the reasons I like the poll feature -- they give a clearer view of where people actually stand, especially when a conversation can be dominated by a person who actually represents a very small minority of CAPTalkers. 

Although I don't agree with it, I can understand those that say we shouldn't bother with either of them, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the position of the other minority that thinks its important to wear the uniform correctly, but that military customs and courtesies should not be followed. 

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJBottom line: If you're going to wear the Air Force uniform, you'd better play by the Air Force's rules. To boot, if you're going to teach cadets, you'd better lead by example.

Diamonds 15 years ago, oak leaves now, nothing's different for me. Former cadets may be among the most vehement about this.

Quoted for truth, especially being former cadet myself.

My current squadron CC is an active duty AF SSgt who has made a local policy that applies to SMs where, if we cannot come to a meeting in a proper CAP or USAF uniform (we have a few active duty folks), then don't come to the meeting, especially if we're working with cadets.

 Wearing the uniform properly is not only required by the regulations, it shows pride in being a member of CAP. If certain individuals are not proud of what they belong to, and not striving towards that goal of excellence, and not making at least the effort, then maybe they should quit, or be thrown out, instead of showing up and making everyone else look bad.
  And yes, we should follow customs and courtesies. Once again it shows respect and pride in CAP and it's members.

  What I can't grasp, is the few who voted that uniform standards shouldn't be enforced at all.

Quote from: RiverAux on March 12, 2009, 03:10:04 AM
...I have a hard time wrapping my head around the position of the other minority that thinks its important to wear the uniform correctly, but that military customs and courtesies should not be followed.

The uniform comes with certain obligations, responsibilities and traditions. If you choose not to carry that mantel, then don't put the uniform on.

If customs and courtesies are a bother to you, wear the golf shirt, the blazer, heck, even the guyabera shirt if you dare. None of those are really uniforms, anyway.

Thankfully, the Mexican party shirt died a glorious death about 15 years ago.

Quote from: Slim on March 12, 2009, 09:01:44 PM
Thankfully, the Mexican party shirt died a glorious death about 15 years ago.

I'd suggest a few other CAP-only items go the same route....  >:D

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on March 12, 2009, 08:47:27 PM
If customs and courtesies are a bother to you, wear the golf shirt, the blazer, heck, even the guyabera shirt if you dare. None of those are really uniforms, anyway.

The only courtesy the above uniforms might relieve you of is saluting - the Sirs, Ma'ams, addressing by title and last name, etc., are in force regardless.

Quote from: SaBeR33 on March 12, 2009, 10:14:42 AM
My current squadron CC is an active duty AF SSgt who has made a local policy that applies to SMs where, if we cannot come to a meeting in a proper CAP or USAF uniform (we have a few active duty folks), then don't come to the meeting, especially if we're working with cadets.

Another home-grown set of rules.  The USAF uniform is NOT an acceptable subsitute for a CAP uniform.  If you are wearing a USAF uniform, you might as well be in civies as you are NOT in a CAP uniform.   We have a few that insist on showing up at meetings in a USAF flight suit.  They are not even on active flying status!  Another squadron/CC insisted on only wearing flight suits at meetings until the Wing/CC put a stop to it.

  Flight suits should not be for regular meetings!!! That's like showing up for blood donations in welding gear!

  Oh!...Look at me!...I'm a pilot!......Duh huh?

A Reserve Liason Major showed up at our squadron in his Air Force Flight Suit.  Appropriate??

Quote from: capchiro on March 13, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
A Reserve Laison Major showed up at our squadron in his Air Force Flight Suit.  Appropriate??

Yes...for them.  Depending on their job, the flight suit, for reservists and active duty, is considered their regular duty uniform.

That is not the case for CAP.

  I think there might be a conflict there.........CAP is not the reserves, it's not regular military. You show up at a CAP meeting, you should be in the appropriate CAP uniform. There's regulations in which require us to NOT be in uniform within a certain time frame of our meetings....Considering this, I'm sure there is time to change.

  It also has to do with earlier post, and the restrictions of wearing the CAP uniforms, lack of publicity, lack of interest,...and so on.

  Also, by showing up in another uniform, it denotes CAP by somewhat presenting the image, "I'm better than you, I am able to wear THIS uniform"!.....How do you think that makes other members feel?

  That's not right at all bro!.....We should be members of CAP as a whole, and not take on a "look at me" attitude!.......I guarantee flights, squadrons, wings, etc.......will achieve a lot more if members focus on teaching others, rather than bragging about where they're at.

Quote from: Short Field on March 12, 2009, 11:02:37 PM

Quote from: SaBeR33 on March 12, 2009, 10:14:42 AM
My current squadron CC is an active duty AF SSgt who has made a local policy that applies to SMs where, if we cannot come to a meeting in a proper CAP or USAF uniform (we have a few active duty folks), then don't come to the meeting, especially if we're working with cadets.

Another home-grown set of rules.  The USAF uniform is NOT an acceptable subsitute for a CAP uniform.  If you are wearing a USAF uniform, you might as well be in civies as you are NOT in a CAP uniform.   We have a few that insist on showing up at meetings in a USAF flight suit.  They are not even on active flying status!  Another squadron/CC insisted on only wearing flight suits at meetings until the Wing/CC put a stop to it.

If they don't have time to change out of their AF uniforms prior to making to it to meetings--which does happen due to long hours at work just as I experienced while on active duty--then the AF uniform should be acceptable, but not the best option. It's either they wear their duty uniforms or not come at all. Which would you prefer? Would you rather have no CC, DCC, or Leadership Officer since they're all active duty or have them show up in their duty uniforms if they didn't have time to change?

Them and Us ... terribly divisive.

Total Force: Active, Reserve, Guard, Auxiliary.  Think it, believe it, LIVE UP TO IT.  

:D

 Hey! If I have time to change in 1/hr.............

  If they plan on being at a meeting....Bring the appropriate uniform......We are a unique organization which follows certain regulations......Unless they're there on AF busines, they should be wearing a CAP uniform if they're a member.........Standards are standards, and should go for everyone........Otherwise, just get rid of all the uniform rules!

Wait one and re-read.

I'm not talking about a reservist who is also a CAP member - in that case they have no choice but to change.  I've had this conversation with our State Director.  Unless they are on orders approved by their CC to do something for the USAF at that meeting, they are potentially violating USAF regs for uniform wear. 

I believe what CAPCHIRO was referring to is a CAPRAP coming down in that capacity, in which case they are "on duty" and the flight suit is likely an approved duty uniform.  Believe it o not, some of these reservists don't even own blues that fit.

 If you're a CAP member, and in the AF, how long would it take you to jump out of that blue/ olive sack and change?

Quote from: SaBeR33 on March 13, 2009, 12:25:42 AMIf they don't have time to change out of their AF uniforms prior to making to it to meetings--which does happen due to long hours at work just as I experienced while on active duty--then the AF uniform should be acceptable, but not the best option.

Give them some cheese with that whine ---  it is just a lame excuse.   If they really are active duty military, then changing uniforms "on the fly" should be no problem - BTDT a lot.  Keeping a uniform in the vehicle and changing into it at the meeting should be a piece of cake - and done in less than 5 minutes.  That is assume they are not wearing a set of blues at work and only need to chose which CAP shirt to wear with the pants - then they just need two minutes. 

An Air Force uniform is an Air Force uniform, regardless of component.

That said, the CAP-USAF/CC doesn't want active duty members to wear their "Air Force" uniform to CAP functions when acting in the capacity of a CAP member.  He's afraid of CAP members taking the words of active duty members as that of CAP-USAF.  I would point out that he hasn't the authority to make that prohibition.  If its not a prohibited place to wear an Air Force uniform, then ... its not prohibited.  Frankly, its one of those things that's "wrong" between CAP and the parent organization--its not fostering cooperation.

This is not to say that one shouldn't be dressed appropriately for conducting business--whether that be as a reservist or as a CAP member.  Obviously the best case is to change into the appropriate uniform.  I wouldn't act as mission base staff or knock on someone's door in an AF uniform.  That would clearly be inappropriate and confusing to the "customer." 

For regular meetings, I'm thankful that people show up -- unless its a special event, a CAP uniform tends to be difficult for many.  As for myself, I'm generally coming as I am!  If I still have my work clothes on then so be it.  I'm much more interested in the people than the outfit they have on.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 12, 2009, 11:24:28 PM
  Flight suits should not be for regular meetings!!! That's like showing up for blood donations in welding gear!

  Oh!...Look at me!...I'm a pilot!......Duh huh?

I would disagree on that, conditionally. A unit in a wing I was formerly a member of was a senior unit. They had a couple of planes, and tended to fly at their "regular meetings", which was usually a couple of Saturday mornings a month. They also did missions, and regularly flew cadets on O rides.

Every now and then a regular meeting (meaning no flying was done), they still wore uniforms. The uniform was a flightsuit. I don't think that many of them even owned anything other than a green or blue bag.

Does this seem inappropriate? If so, why? Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

As to cadet units, I wouldn't see the point of them. For a composite unit, I have no problem if the person flies regularly, and wears the bag occasionally. But as the only uniform they have, no.

Should we enforce that? Definitely.

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 13, 2009, 05:59:47 AM
Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

Quote from: Short Field on March 13, 2009, 06:43:18 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 13, 2009, 05:59:47 AM
Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

How suitable are blues for flight operations? The setting was regular meetings where flight is their mission. It discussed nothing else. Right tool for the right job.

Quote from: Slim on March 12, 2009, 09:01:44 PM
Thankfully, the Mexican party shirt died a glorious death about 15 years ago.

1 July 1997, to be exact.

Quote from: Short Field on March 13, 2009, 06:43:18 AM
I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

Quote from: Short Field on March 13, 2009, 06:43:18 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 13, 2009, 05:59:47 AM
Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

Sadly too many units are this way. I transferred to my current squadron from a squadron where ALL of the SMs wore Blues/Corporate Equivalent on Blues nights, BDUs/BBDUs on BDU nights, and they still managed to wear some sort of uniform on PT nights. Here, 90% of the SMs don't own anything other than the polo (and yes that 90% are pilots with two exceptions). Out of the other 10%, one only owns the Blazer combo and the polo. The rest of us have at least Blues (or Corporate Equivalent) and BDUs (or BBDUs). I've only seen the DCC in the polo or civies during the six months that I've been here. Out of the SMs, only the Squadron Commander and I exchange salutes on a regular basis. Several of these members are prior military too. Everybody is on first name terms, except myself and a Cadet Sponsor Member whom I'm required (per his wife the 2d Lt) to call him Mr. *his last name* but he can call me by just my first or last name. Everyone else gets to call him by his first name.  :( I hate being 20.

What is sad is the cadets have, or are gaining, a similar mentality. I must admit that the cadets are *usually* good about saying "yes sir" and "no sir", but I can count the number of times I've been saluted properly on one hand. Passing each other outside I will get a "How's it goin' sir?!" and no salute. When I try to correct the cadets, they suggest I read the regs before correcting them *facepalm* When these sort of arguments happen in front of the SQ/CC, he listens to their defense and then says I am right. Then nothing else is said about it or done about it until I bring it up again and the mentality has yet to change. It's not that I want to salute...I avoid situations where I have to salute or being saluted at all possible, but after two years as a Cadet (C/2d LT) and now two years as a SM, I think I deserve a little more respect than to be told "Go read the regs before you correct me." What happened to the good ole C&C class for EVERYBODY?

I wonder who the hardcore uniform/salute folks are? Seems the RM folks are more laid back about that stuff than the NonRM.  Which begs the question what do you CAPmember want out of the organization- Flying club with SAR?  Or military dress up club with salutes thrown around for whoever has been a member longer?

Quote from: Short Field on March 13, 2009, 06:43:18 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 13, 2009, 05:59:47 AM
Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

Maybe demonstrating they belong to CAP instead of a flying club???   CAPM 39-1 para 1-5 states that:  " Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform ."  This is defined in para 1-5a & b.  Para 1-5a is the light blue shirt, blue trousers combo and para 1-5b is the white aviator shirt and gray trousers combo.  I know, just another inconvenent regulation to ignore....   

When I was commander of NC007 for most meetings the uniform was BDUs for cadets, BDUs for officers who were working with cadets, and flight suits for rated officers.  One meeting each month we wore blues.  Since we were on Pope AFB, the system dovetailed perfectly into what the active Air Force was doing at the time.  The Pope wing commander was pleased with our uniforms and the two-star on the base was a big supporter (wore a flight suit when he showed up at meetings.)

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 13, 2009, 04:06:35 PM
I wonder who the hardcore uniform/salute folks are? Seems the RM folks are more laid back about that stuff than the NonRM.  Which begs the question what do you CAPmember want out of the organization- Flying club with SAR?  Or military dress up club with salutes thrown around for whoever has been a member longer?

I am one of those that voted.  I am a prior cadet/prior service/prior commander.  What I want out of CAP is what CAP is.  We are a leadership development, emergency service, aerospace education group with ties to the USAF.  The uniform is part of it and should be worn and worn correctly, especially in front of cadets.  We need to lead by example in everything we do with the cadets.

As far as C&C goes the same applies, in front of cadets it should be a 100% compliance.  There will be mistakes, it happens in the military as well, but right behaviors create right results and as a leadership development program that is important.  When it is a bunch of SM in a room with no cadets, that is based on the circumstances.  I was close friends with many of the SM in my unit when I was commander and some of them we SM when I was a cadet, so behind closed doors things were a little lax becuase the mission was more important than being called "sir" by someone that was 15-20 years older than me.  However, in front of cadets, we rarely let it slip.

Being on wing staff, it is not as strict as it would be at a local unit but I still call the Wing Commander "sir" or "Col" even though I have almost twenty years in service on him.  That is a result based on right behaviors taught to me as a cadet. 

I find it odd that when many of us talk about C&C we always put the qualifying statement of, "especially in front of cadets." 

Enforcing a standard is much more difficult if you only 'have to' in front of a certain group of people, or you need to increase the level for another. Assessing the group demographic before deciding if you are going to salute or not only makes it more difficult.

Why don't we just say, "The uniform needs to be worn properly," and "Customs and Courtesies need to be observed."

 I think C&C should be enforced whenever practical along with the proper wear of allthe uniforms we wear. I put in whenever practical because it doesn't make sense to enforce things like saluting well on ES type missions. I always try to have my uniform looking good and practice proper C&C no matter what.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 13, 2009, 09:32:05 PM
Why don't we just say, "The uniform needs to be worn properly," and "Customs and Courtesies need to be observed."

Because some "adults" get "testy" when they are told what to do.  (http://db.msn-beta.com/big_emoticons/misc/bleu_crying.gif)

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 13, 2009, 09:32:05 PM
I find it odd that when many of us talk about C&C we always put the qualifying statement of, "especially in front of cadets." 

Enforcing a standard is much more difficult if you only 'have to' in front of a certain group of people, or you need to increase the level for another. Assessing the group demographic before deciding if you are going to salute or not only makes it more difficult.

Why don't we just say, "The uniform needs to be worn properly," and "Customs and Courtesies need to be observed."

I use the term "in front of cadets" because as adults there should already be a level of respect that is not defined by grade.  The "in front of cadets" is to reinforce their training.  The cadets do the same.  When peers are together outside of SM's range, they refer to each other by name but in front of us and other cadets they follow C&C.

I actually feel that the poll questions does not fit the title.  Customs and courtesies should always be enforced. But there is a difference between enforcing uniform wear and it being properly worn.   You cannot force a senior member to wear a uniform except for when working with cadets or flying. Cadets are required by regulation to have a "Class B" uniform but not BDU's, so even though I cannot fathom a cadet not having BDU's you can not by regulation punish them for not having a set.  Now a wing or region may supplement a regulation, but that is not really germane to this discussion.

However if a uniform is worn, then it should be worn as prescribed by regulation or manual.  A person who's uniform is not up to standard, should be taken aside and talked to by his commander or immediate supervisor. But privately and not publicly humiliated.   

Anyway my answer to the poll is Customs and Courtesy always enforced and Uniforms when required or worn , be worn correctly.

Quotecannot force a senior member to wear a uniform except for when working with cadets or flying.

Table 1.1 -- wear of the uniform is required when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions.  And Note 1 says The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions.

Quote from: RiverAux on March 13, 2009, 10:40:17 PM

Quote from: Who_knows? on March 13, 2009, 10:35:47 PMcannot force a senior member to wear a uniform except for when working with cadets or flying.

Table 1.1 -- wear of the uniform is required when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions.  And Note 1 says The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions.

+10

It fully within a respective commander's authority to prescribe and require a specific uniform (assuming one isn't prescribed by the duty itself).  The practical reality is that this needs to be tempered with common sense and sensitivity to member wallets, but there's no reg that defines the word "sensitivity". A commander looking to make a point could certainly start indicating a UOD, especially if he had upstream support.

Further, as has been pointed out on a number of occasions, the first page of 39-1 indicates that all CAP members are required to have either the basic service dress blues or the aviator whites.

So we certainly can require you to wear a uniform.

I stand corrected, when a uniform has been proscribed for an event or activity.  But take a close look at Table 1-2 and the following cap knowledgebase article 806 in regards to cadet's and CAPM39-1 para 1-5.

I don't need to look, Cadets are a different story entirely.  We can only require what we issue them.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 13, 2009, 12:08:55 AM

Quote from: capchiro on March 13, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
A Reserve Laison Major showed up at our squadron in his Air Force Flight Suit.  Appropriate??

Yes...for them.  Depending on their job, the flight suit, for reservists and active duty, is considered their regular duty uniform.

That is not the case for CAP.

Liason's? Absolutely it is proper for them to wear the AF uniform as they are NOT members of CAP.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 12, 2009, 11:24:28 PM
  Flight suits should not be for regular meetings!!! That's like showing up for blood donations in welding gear!

  Oh!...Look at me!...I'm a pilot!......Duh huh?

I beg to differ. It depends on what unit you are in. My unit is a Senior Squadron and flying unit. We are all pilots (many of us former active duty) or aircrew members and we meet in flight suits. Is that inappropriate?

And no, you don't have to "look at us"...we already know that we are cool... ;)

Sorry if you took offense to that! The whole reason why I brought that up was the post stating that members show up to regular meetings (non flight) in flight suits....Thus stating "wear the appropriate uniform".......You're not going to show up for a "dress" or classroom function where you're not going to be flying in a flight suit are you?...If what you do at your meetings is fly, than so be it...but otherwise, it's not appropriate........Relax! And don't take so much offense!

Good goin' Eclipse!...I'm with you on the senior members whining about being told what uniform to wear!

Quote from: Capflyer on March 18, 2009, 07:39:03 PM
I beg to differ. It depends on what unit you are in. My unit is a Senior Squadron and flying unit. We are all pilots (many of us former active duty) or aircrew members and we meet in flight suits. Is that inappropriate?

Not if you flew to the meeting.  Otherwise, yes.

 Look! A lot of you seem to take on this "better than thou" attitude because you have served in regular service, or are still doing so, are pilots and so fourth. All though I respect your dedication and service to our country, or what you have accomplished, CAP is what CAP is! If you're not satisfied with the uniform rules and courtesies, and feel that you shouldn't have to obey them because of your "regular" service....I feel you're wrong!

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2009, 08:06:13 PM

Quote from: Capflyer on March 18, 2009, 07:39:03 PM
I beg to differ. It depends on what unit you are in. My unit is a Senior Squadron and flying unit. We are all pilots (many of us former active duty) or aircrew members and we meet in flight suits. Is that inappropriate?

Not if you flew to the meeting.  Otherwise, yes.

The squadron commander is allowed to designate the flight suit for meeting wear if they want. 

 Why would a squadron commander approve the wearing of flight suits when no one is going to be flying?

  I'm having a BBQ next weekend.......Everyone bring their welding gear!

Because he/she is the Squadron King/Queen in so far as determining the appropriate uniform of the day for squadron events.  Perhaps they have determined that it helps build esprit d corps in the flying unit and saves people money from having to buy other CAP uniforms that the ymay not need. 

Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2009, 08:06:13 PM

Quote from: Capflyer on March 18, 2009, 07:39:03 PM
I beg to differ. It depends on what unit you are in. My unit is a Senior Squadron and flying unit. We are all pilots (many of us former active duty) or aircrew members and we meet in flight suits. Is that inappropriate?

Not if you flew to the meeting.  Otherwise, yes.

Some of us might have flown to the meeting, but that's not the point. In our case, we are all aircrews, we don't have any cadets, and flying is what we do in CAP. We are also responsible for Rapid Response in our side of the state and thus, some of us are "on-call".

I don't see anything inappropriate with this since flight suit is our "standard" uniform.
Some people in our organization does not have any problems with members showing up in BDU's, gold shirts, AF-style blues, gray slacks and white shirts and blue slacks and white shirts to the same meeting as long as they don't show up in flight suits!! I would say a meeting with everyone in flight suits looks the heck of a lot better than the other "mess" we see all the time.

Sounds to me like "it's okay to be proud of what you do in CAP as long as you're not a pilot"... ;)

 You gotta' be kidding right?  If your squadron doesnt do that much flying, I don't see anyone being forced to go out and buy a $200 (+) Nomex flightsuit, when other uniforms are more set for the meeting and cheaper. That's why I think there's a bit of "egotism" in play........All I'm saying is...Don't wear a flight suit if you're not expecting to be flying!...If you earned your wings, buy the appropriate badge or patch, and wear them on the appropriate uniform. And if your Commander request you to show up in a flight suit, but you don't even meet near an airfield, and there's been no talk aboult flying at all, maybe you should ask why you're in that uniform!!

  That goes with all uniforms, customs and courtesies (as what the post is about)

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 18, 2009, 08:54:23 PM
You gotta' be kidding right?  If your squadron doesnt do that much flying, I don't see anyone being forced to go out and buy a $200 (+) Nomex flightsuit, when other uniforms are more set for the meeting and cheaper. That's why I think there's a bit of "egotism" in play........All I'm saying is...Don't wear a flight suit if you're not expecting to be flying!...If you earned your wings, buy the appropriate badge or patch, and wear them on the appropriate uniform. And if your Commander request you to show up in a flight suit, but you don't even meet near an airfield, and there's been no talk aboult flying at all, maybe you should ask why you're in that uniform!!

No I'm not kidding!  We meet at an ANG base in the flight ops building. We fly all the time, like I said, that's what we do. There is no "egotism" in play. Who would we impress? We are all aircrews. We are a flying squadron and our meetings are all about our flight operations.

Last time I looked in the regs, the flight suit was an approved uniform. Maybe we shouldn't wear our wing badges our blues either? That could be "egotism" too?

Quote from: Capflyer on March 18, 2009, 08:48:25 PM
Some of us might have flown to the meeting, but that's not the point. In our case, we are all aircrews, we don't have any cadets, and flying is what we do in CAP. We are also responsible for Rapid Response in our side of the state and thus, some of us are "on-call".

You are all members of the Civil Air Patrol, and since CAP does not have an MOS system, most of you likely wear any number of hats besides "aircrew".  I don't see the connection to not having cadets. As to the being on call...please.

Quote from: Capflyer on March 18, 2009, 08:48:25 PM
I don't see anything inappropriate with this since flight suit is our "standard" uniform.

It may be what you all wear, but it is not considered the "standard" uniform for Senior Members, that would be either the blue or white service dress.[/quote]

With that said, the unit CC is certainly within his right to set the flight suit as the UOD for regular meetings, as long as the members understand that they may need something else for activities outside your unit.

QuoteIt may be what you all wear, but it is not considered the "standard" uniform for Senior Members, that would be either the blue or white service dress.

Find me a unit that meets in that EVERY single meeting.  No, in most squadron no uniform of the day is declared and you end up with the horrible mishmash of uniforms that each member decided to wear that day.  Nothing at all wrong with flight suits for a regular meeting. 

 So, I can wear just any uniform to a meeting, including a flight suit even though I'm not a pilot or part of a flight crew? I'm sure this would bring up question. And if the rest of you go to meetings where you can wear a flight suit, but don't fly.....I think there's something seriously wrong there!

  Flight Suits are ok if you fly regularly (when you wear them) in that squadron, otherwise, show that you're one of the rest of us and "not stuck up and above because you have wings", and wear a regular uniform like everyone else ( you still get to wear your wings), or are you just lazy and want to just throw on a sack!

Where is all of this flight suit envy coming from?  A flight suit is the primary uniform for flight crew just as the BDU is for ground team, comm, etc.  It looks like the issue with the flight suits is coming from those who don't/can't wear them rather than those who do.

I never understood this thought process before, and even less now that I wear one regularly.  In the AF we wear flight suits everyday and don't have people in ABUs telling us that we shouldn't wear them if we're not on the plane that day.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 18, 2009, 09:19:39 PM
*insert what you said here*

What's the difference with all these people doing everything in polos? I've seen these people wearing it to everything from ground team (in the field) work, flying, airshows, and even award ceremonies. Is that practical? No but they do it anyway. We get after the flyboys and gals for doing the same thing but not the polo people. <sarcasm> Sounds like discrimination to me...call the EEO! </sarcasm>

My thinking is that you should wear the uniform appropriate to what you are doing. Most of us should wear Blues/Corporate Equivalent to the meetings since we aren't flying and are not doing any field work...and no paperwork doesn't count as field work ;) We should wear field uniforms in the field and flight suits while flying. At all times, we should enforce customs and courtesies. It is easy to remember, simple to enforce, and it goes with the spirit of the regulations.

Quote from: Capflyer on March 18, 2009, 09:04:24 PM
We are all aircrews. We are a flying squadron and our meetings are all about our flight operations.

We had one of those as well.  All they did was fly -  no work at all toward earning any type of ES qualifications other than MS/MO/MP.   It was considered beneath them.   The Wg/CC finally direct them to stop wearing flight suits to their meetings.   

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 18, 2009, 09:19:39 PM
So, I can wear just any uniform to a meeting, including a flight suit even though I'm not a pilot or part of a flight crew? I'm sure this would bring up question. And if the rest of you go to meetings where you can wear a flight suit, but don't fly.....I think there's something seriously wrong there!

  Flight Suits are ok if you fly regularly (when you wear them) in that squadron, otherwise, show that you're one of the rest of us and "not stuck up and above because you have wings", and wear a regular uniform like everyone else ( you still get to wear your wings), or are you just lazy and want to just throw on a sack!

You need to read my posts before you reply. I have never said that it's okay to wear a flight suit to meetings if you're not a pilot or an aircrew member. I don't wear a ground team badge because I'm not qualified for that. My initial response to you was about your generalization in stating that it was not okay to wear a flight suit to meetings. My response was that it depends on what kind of unit you belong to.
In our case, we are a flying unit, flying is what we do and therefore we wear flight suits to our meetings. All our members are aircrews, not all pilots, but at least aircrews. That means we are not "showing off" or pretending to be better than anyone else but just working in our specialty which happens to be flight operations.

As for being "one of the rest of us" as you stated, I have never stated that we are not, nor do we act that way. That statement came from you so that must be your issue.
Just as it's okay for ground team members, communications specialists and others to wear their "standard" uniform, it must be okay for aircrews to wear theirs.

I my mind, all jobs/functions in CAP are important and I don't "look down" on anyone for what specialty they have. But that's a two-way street, aircrews must be allowed to perform their specialty without being accused of "being stuck up because we have wings". That's just an outrageous statement and shows more of a problem on your side than on mine.

^^^ I belong to one of those.  It is even cheaper than flying my own airplane.  CAP is only cheaper than the flying club if you can get a funded mission.     

Quote from: Short Field on March 18, 2009, 10:01:58 PM

Quote from: Capflyer on March 18, 2009, 09:04:24 PM
We are all aircrews. We are a flying squadron and our meetings are all about our flight operations.

We had one of those as well.  All they did was fly -  no work at all toward earning any type of ES qualifications other than MS/MO/MP.   It was considered beneath them.   The Wg/CC finally direct them to stop wearing flight suits to their meetings.   

You have got to be kidding?  First, almost all of our aircrew members and pilots have other ES ratings spanning from UDF, AOBD's to IC's. But, your post makes me wonder if you realize what it really takes to get and maintain a MP rating?? If not, look it up and then add the money it takes just to stay current.

I don't see anything wrong with members "only" having MS/MO/MP ratings just as I don't see any problem with members having "only" GTM/GTL ratings. Think about it, who's out there doing the "search" in search and rescue?
We need our most experienced folks out there and not "pull them in to Mission Base as soon as they have learned their job. But that's a whole other discussion that belongs in the ES thread.

This thread is about customs and courtesies and this discussion about wether or not it's okay to wear a flight suit to meetings in a flight ops unit. I maintain that it is if the unit IS a flying unit like ours and flight ops is what we do. We don't consider it "beneath" us to get other ratings (and we do have them), but we take our job seriously and want to do it well. That's why our focus is on flight ops and flight suit is our "standard" uniform.

However, when the situation warrants a different uniform (wing conferences, courses, etc.), we proudly put on our blues or Class A's and represent our unit. With wings on our chest of course.... ;)

CORRECTION, I see that you are an MP so you must know what that means...:-).

Quote from: Capflyer on March 19, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
But, your post makes me wonder if you realize what it really takes to get and maintain a MP rating?? If not, look it up and then add the money it takes just to stay current.

Wonder no more.  I own a C-182.  Flying it is the cheap part.   

Quote from: Capflyer on March 19, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
We need our most experienced folks out there and not "pull them in to Mission Base as soon as they have learned their job.

Just leave the least experienced folks to plan the missions??

Quote from: Short Field on March 19, 2009, 12:15:49 AM

Quote from: Capflyer on March 19, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
We need our most experienced folks out there and not "pull them in to Mission Base as soon as they have learned their job.

Just leave the least experienced folks to plan the missions??

Come on, you know better than that and what I mean..... ;), ...but that's a discussion for another forum.

I've read your posts...maybe you missunderstood mine. In the first place, I wasn't talking about you squadrons who fly all the time, so it would make sense for you to wear CAP flight suits. I was refering to the original poll, and another post stating people showing up in "regular" AF, Navy, or whatever flight suits, when it only takes a few minutes to change if you plan on being at a meeting, when there is no flying activities going on.......That's either just being lazy, showing off that you're a pilot, or just not caring about being in a uniform that fits the purpose of the meeting. Either way, if you plan on being at a meeting in uniform, you have time to change!!!....It's only a zipper or two!

Quote from: Capflyer on March 19, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
This thread is about customs and courtesies and this discussion about whether or not it's okay to wear a flight suit to meetings in a flight ops unit. I maintain that it is if the unit IS a flying unit like ours and flight ops is what we do. We don't consider it "beneath" us to get other ratings (and we do have them), but we take our job seriously and want to do it well. That's why our focus is on flight ops and flight suit is our "standard" uniform.

If flight ops is all you "do", then maybe that's the issue, since you're supposed to be doing more (as a unit) than just flight ops.  You keep making the assertion that you're a "flying unit", which is interesting because that's not a distinction CAP makes.

There are Senior, Cadet, and Composite Squadrons, all with significantly more extensive missions than just flying.

Assuming you're maintaining your flight ticket in any case, being a Mission Pilot doesn't have to cost you anything more once you're qual'ed if you're active and fly at funded activities.

 Once again, I agree with Eclipse!........ Let me ask this.......If you were to wear a (non flight) uniform to a meeting where you don't fly every single time, how much trouble would it take to bring your flight suit and change....if you needed to? Or, vise versa.

  Regular military doesn't sit around in their flight suits during normal orientations and lessons...do they?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2009, 12:26:39 AM

Quote from: Capflyer on March 19, 2009, 12:06:41 AM
This thread is about customs and courtesies and this discussion about whether or not it's okay to wear a flight suit to meetings in a flight ops unit. I maintain that it is if the unit IS a flying unit like ours and flight ops is what we do. We don't consider it "beneath" us to get other ratings (and we do have them), but we take our job seriously and want to do it well. That's why our focus is on flight ops and flight suit is our "standard" uniform.

If flight ops is all you "do", then maybe that's the issue, since you're supposed to be doing more (as a unit) than just flight ops.  You keep making the assertion that you're a "flying unit", which is interesting because that's not a distinction CAP makes.

There are Senior, Cadet, and Composite Squadrons, all with significantly more extensive missions than just flying.

Assuming you're maintaining your flight ticket in any case, being a Mission Pilot doesn't have to cost you anything more once you're qual'ed if you're active and fly at funded activities.

No that's not an issue. No more than many units are focused on Comm and others on AE, Model Rocketry, Drill Teams, etc. Yes we are a flying unit but we do fulfill our other missions in CAP meaning we support the local cadet units, speak at schools (who usually asks us to wear flight suits) and other events about flying and airplanes, etc, That's Aerospace Education. All the o-flights we do are part of the Cadet Program so we do work for all the three main missions of CAP. Our main focus however is ES and air operations.

Again, my point was about wearing a flight suit to regular meetings and I responded that it depends on what kind of unit you belong to and what they do. Some units wear BDU's most of the time and no one seems to have a problem with that. We do of course proudly wear or blues on other occasions.... ;)

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 12:46:35 AM
Once again, I agree with Eclipse!........ Let me ask this.......If you were to wear a (non flight) uniform to a meeting where you don't fly every single time, how much trouble would it take to bring your flight suit and change....if you needed to? Or, vise versa.

  Regular military doesn't sit around in their flight suits during normal orientations and lessons...do they?

No it won't take long to change but again, why should we for our own regular squadron meetings when air ops is what we do?

As for your comment about regular military, I probably shouldn't say it since yoy might think I'm "stuck up" again, but I am former AF regular and yes, we wore our flight suits during our normal duties at our squadron. We did however wear blues for other duties, just like I've stated that we do here in our CAP unit.

 Well, this is all FUBAR! I think BDU's should be for the field and other outdoor activities (why do they make them Camo anyway), Blues should be for classrooms, flightsuits for FLYING,and so on, common sense should say the rest. I know there's the whole cost factor.....but that's the way it is....otherwise it's never going to be enforced and the problem will still prevail.

Capflyer.......If that's what you do and you fly all the time, then I'm not talking about you!....Take it easy!
I know a lot of pilots, but they don't want to be in that sack most of the time. Then again, I've seen a lot of others who over do it on stating their a pilot (especially around females). You may not be one of these types, but they're out there (look at the original post about flightsuits after the poll).

We can't compare the USAF or AFRES to CAP for this discussion - they issue uniforms to their people, provide an allowance for what's not issued, and have a specific UOD that is dictated to them by their superiors or their MOS.

However right now most worldwide are wearing blues on Mondays specifically at the direction of the CSAF to raise the professional appearance of the organization.

Like it or not, flyers, even if they aren't active or flying wear bags as their normal uniform, most other technical people wear BDU's or ABU's, and only the pure office wonks wear service dress everyday.

We're not the USAF or AFRES, so its irrelevant to this discussion what they do, we have our own rules and culture.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 12:23:07 AM
I was refering to the original poll, and another post stating people showing up in "regular" AF, Navy, or whatever flight suits, when it only takes a few minutes to change if you plan on being at a meeting, when there is no flying activities going on.......That's either just being lazy, showing off that you're a pilot, or just not caring about being in a uniform that fits the purpose of the meeting. Either way, if you plan on being at a meeting in uniform, you have time to change!!!....It's only a zipper or two!

Rob Sherlin,

Your views are not shared by the Air Force.  They wear flight suits all the time, when no flight ops are planned for that day.

So after you straighten out CAP, maybe you can convince the USAF to get it right.

 Where did you here this? Maybe your sources are wrong. Think about hanging out all the time in a Nomex flightsuit...........Just think about it and ask why?

  I know someone from the AF Thunderbirds who would say different. As soon as they can change, they go to coveralls or blues.

Rob,

On this its right.  The flight suit is the duty uniform for a lot of jobs.

I am utterly floored at the anti-flying sentiment expressed by the misconception that the flightsuit is not a uniform.  I assure you that it IS a uniform; I haven't worn BDUs on active duty since 1997, but I wear a utility uniform almost all the time.

Its a uniform that's appropriate where its appropriate ... regular meetings CAN be an appropriate situation.  A wing conference would likely not be an appropriate situation.

If you're a unit commander or designee with the power to make a policy of "no flightsuits at unit meetings," then by all means have at it.  It would be much wiser to say, "next week is the squadron quarterly awards, please wear blues or an equivalent corporate uniform."  Consider conferring with your cadets, if you're lucky enough to have them, when making such a request.

I find that the "aerospace education meeting" to be a particularly motivational time to wear flightsuits--especially for said cadets.

I definitely consider being anti-flightsuit (when its appropriate) to be anti-aircrew, anti-pilot, and ANTI-CAP.  If you harbor such feelings, I'll ask you to take your time and talents elsewhere.

 For CAP? Doesn't the regulations prohibit wearing a CAP uniform (flightsuit) for any other business, and visa versa?

 You are reading me wrong! I'm not saying the flightsuit should NOT be worn. I'm saying it should only be worn if you're part of a flight crew (pilot or other) who is scheduled to fly...And it should be a CAP flight suit! You guys are taking this too personal! I have nothing against pilots or flightsuits, look at my posts, I'm trying to get my wings myself!!!
  But, you don't have to wear a flightsuit all the time unless you fly all the time........There's no hidden message, or insult, or anything there!....That's what the regs suggest, that's how it should be. Why would you want to hang out in a flightsuit anyway if you know you're not going to be flying?

Quote from: es_g0d on March 19, 2009, 03:12:38 AM
I definitely consider being anti-flightsuit (when its appropriate) to be anti-aircrew, anti-pilot, and ANTI-CAP.  If you harbor such feelings, I'll ask you to take your time and talents elsewhere.

Easy...

Equating not wearing flight suits at non-flight activities with being anti-aircrew is simply making an argument where one does not exist.

The fact of the matter is that they don't call them "bags" for nothing.  Even the most well maintained flight suits generally look pretty sloppy and unkempt.  This isn't anti-flight, this is setting a proper, professional tone and appearance.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 02:55:41 AM
Regular military doesn't sit around in their flight suits during normal orientations and lessons...do they?

Yes, we do.

Quote
Where did you here this? Maybe your sources are wrong. Think about hanging out all the time in a Nomex flightsuit...........Just think about it and ask why?

  I know someone from the AF Thunderbirds who would say different. As soon as they can change, they go to coveralls or blues.

I'm no Thunderbird pilot, but regular AF aircrew do wear the flight suit as a standard, everyday uniform.  Maybe you should have a chat with your friend and get that clarified. Again, it's a uniform just like the ABU, BDU, blues, etc., and I don't understand the discrimination against aircrew members wearing flightsuits.

As for the post above complaining about pilots who work only on aircrew ratings and nothing else, what's the problem with that? There are plenty of people in CAP who have an interest in one area and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

HaHaHa......Eclipse!.......my coffee is all over my desk now!......So true!

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 03:25:41 AM
Why would you want to hang out in a flightsuit anyway if you know you're not going to be flying?

Because it's a duty uniform for flightcrew members and it's pretty darned comfortable to boot.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2009, 03:32:10 AM

Quote from: es_g0d on March 19, 2009, 03:12:38 AM
I definitely consider being anti-flightsuit (when its appropriate) to be anti-aircrew, anti-pilot, and ANTI-CAP.  If you harbor such feelings, I'll ask you to take your time and talents elsewhere.

The fact of the matter is that they don't call them "bags" for nothing.  Even the most well maintained flight suits generally look pretty sloppy and unkempt.

No.

They don't.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 01:00:26 AM
Well, this is all FUBAR! I think BDU's should be for the field and other outdoor activities (why do they make them Camo anyway), Blues should be for classrooms, flightsuits for FLYING,and so on, common sense should say the rest. I know there's the whole cost factor.....but that's the way it is....otherwise it's never going to be enforced and the problem will still prevail.

If you go to an AFB you'll see lots of folks who crew aircraft wearing bags who aren't going to fly that day, or that week.  Period.  The commander of a flying unit such as a wing commander will almost always be seen in a bag, but he doesn't fly much.  It's part of the tradition, the culture, and the way they dress.

WIWA CC, as I've said before, the flyers wore bags, the cadet program folks wore BDUs, and one meeting a month we wore blues.  I was the commander, I set the uniform, and no one complained, except the couple of members who refused to wear a uniform at all.  It worked, our programs were really large, both ES and cadet.  How was I wrong?

  Pilot or not, you should wear the CAP uniform (flightsuit)! This is not an anti- pilot thread....READ THE POSTS!!!!....If you still can't understand what's going on...how the heck did you ever become a pilot?

Quote from: jaybird512 on March 19, 2009, 03:35:00 AM

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 02:55:41 AM

Quote
  I know someone from the AF Thunderbirds who would say different. As soon as they can change, they go to coveralls or blues.

I'm no Thunderbird pilot, but regular AF aircrew do wear the flight suit as a standard, everyday uniform.  Maybe you should have a chat with your friend and get that clarified. Again, it's a uniform just like the ABU, BDU, blues, etc., and I don't understand the discrimination against aircrew members wearing flightsuits.

If you're looking for the Thunderbirds, Golden Knights, Blue Angels, etc as an example of what the RM does, you're looking in the wrong place.  They're first pretty.  

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 03:42:36 AM
 Pilot or not, you should wear the CAP uniform (flightsuit)! This is not an anti- pilot thread....READ THE POSTS!!!!....If you still can't understand what's going on...how the heck did you ever become a pilot?

We're not taking it as an anti-pilot thread.  We're just trying to point out that you're a little confused or misinformed about the wear of the flight suit and we're trying to clarify that.

I assure you, nothing was meant personally.  I find some of the comments made on this board to be evocative, however, of anti-flyer sentiments which have no place in the Civil Air Patrol.

I affirm a flight crew member's right to wear a flightsuit as a utility uniform when the wear of a utility uniform is appropriate.  Its the aircrew member's equivalent of BDUs.  It doesn't matter if you are going to or coming from an active flight activity.  Its a uniform.

The rules about "don't make unnecessary stops" etc. while wearing a flightsuit derive from the fact that you shouldn't conduct anything but necessary business in ANY utility uniform.  Where CAPR 39-1 restricts the wear of flightsuits, it similarly restricts the wear of BDUs and other utility uniforms.

I agree with you, Rob, on the part of "why would you want to hang out in a flightsuit anyway," since they're hot in the summer and cold in the winter and the zippers can be murder on your knees.  Its a utility uniform, and so long as a member meets standards and requirements, its no different than choosing BDUs or the Blue BDUs.

Some of the "don't wear a flightsuit" sentiment may come from other services.  In the Navy, flightsuits are considered special purpose wear and are only worn when performing flight duties.  Its my understanding that there are similar policies in place in the Army as well.  We don't wear "Navy style" or "Army style" uniforms; CAPR- 39-1 clearly states that we wear "USAF style" uniforms.  We aspire to the standards of the USAF, and rightfully so.

In the Air Force, AND in Civil Air Patrol, its not special purpose wear -- ITS A UNIFORM.

 I've spent a lot of time on Edwards Air Base. And I didn't see too many pilots running around in flight suits unless they're going to fly. I don't blame them considering the weather in California in the summer.

And thrice again!!!!  I only commented on this subject because there was a post on members showing up in flightsuits that were not CAP! For you guys who fly all the time, wear the CAP flight suits....fly on...I salute you. I just think there are those who wear them just to have others acknowledge "I'm a pilot", even though they're not flying...........That's the problem!

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 03:48:57 AM
I've spent a lot of time on Edwards Air Base. And I didn't see too many pilots running around in flight suits unless they're going to fly. I don't blame them considering the weather in California in the summer.

A lot of us have spent time on AF bases and that's just not the case.  I see pilots, flight engineers, and loadmasters who wear nothing but flight suits almost every single day.  I also wear a flight suit every single day that I work whether I am flying or not.  As far as the weather, they're not any more uncomfortable than ABUs (except that you can't take your top off, but there are ways we adapt).  And just because you think that someone is wearing a flight suit just to show off does not make that a fact.  Your opinion is noted.

Yes, they're hot, they're cold, there are zippers, you sweat, you shiver...  The same things happen in all kinds of different uniforms.

I don't know if there's anything else I can provide to make this point any clearer.

 Back to standards.....Don't show up in a USAF flightsuit or any other, unless you have business with that uniform and CAP........Otherwise...YOU'RE OUT OF UNIFORM!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 04:01:45 AM
Back to standards.....Don't show up in a USAF flightsuit or any other unless you have business with that uniform and CAP........Otherwise...YOU'RE OUT OF UNIFORM!!!!!!!!

::)

Ok.

You want to wear a flight suit all the time and your squadron commander says its ok....so be it!....You're nuts!....this is CAP!..there's no "scramble" that's going to call for you to be in a flight suit all the time!....suit yourself!!!!!

You fly in those big lumbering things?....They're cool to fly in, but I want to yell at em' for flying so low over my house....Niagara Falls Airbase buddy!!!!! Wish I can fly an F-16 over theirs.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 03:48:57 AM
I've spent a lot of time on Edwards Air Base. And I didn't see too many pilots running around in flight suits unless they're going to fly. I don't blame them considering the weather in California in the summer.

Edwards is a unique place. I wouldn't use it as an example for anything military.

Stick your head into the Test Squadrons or the Test pilot School, you'll see plenty of flight suits there.

 Then again, could you be confusing nomex flight suits and utility coveralls? And for the other post, Edwards is unique all right. But they have frequent practice sorties, and I still don't see that many people running around in flightsuits........A LOT of utility suits, but not a lot of flight suits (SSSHHHHH!!!!!...Do you know about the missile silos by JPL?)

Quote from: Gunner C on March 19, 2009, 03:40:04 AM
 The commander of a flying unit such as a wing commander will almost always be seen in a bag, but he doesn't fly much.  It's part of the tradition, the culture, and the way they dress.

This trend started in the late '80s and reached it peak with McPeak.  When I was on crew in the mid-80s, if you were not flying, then you came into the squadron in blues.   Wing Commanders were rarely seen in a flight suit unless they were flying - and they normally had blues on before and after.  McPeak felt pilots should wear the flight suit anywhere and anytime.  McPeak started many bad things in motion that eventually resulted in the Air Force losing most of it's influence in the joint world.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 03:48:57 AM
I've spent a lot of time on Edwards Air Base. And I didn't see too many pilots running around in flight suits unless they're going to fly.

I find that surprising. I spent four years there, and I saw aircrew in flghtsuits all the time. There was a guy that lived downstairs from me that wore his every day, flying or not. Saw him in BDU's only a couple of times.

Mr Sherlin

We in Army Aviation go between BDU's and flight suits, ALL the time, whether we are flying or not.  I say we even if I am retired...

Don't know where all the anti flight suit sentiment comes in..

IF the flight suit ISN'T a uniform, why is Vanguard selling its so called blue"flight suit?"  Is it not a uniform item??

When the Sqdn CC says I can not wear it, then I will do the BDU thing, but where I come from , it has not reached ALARM status to jump on everyone.

Nomex was not designed for you stylin' 39-1 guys, can't starch 'em, not worth really ironing, so what is the deal here?

If current AF policy is Nomex only in flying assignments, then that is their policy, and excuse me I haven't been in my 39-1 this week to check if my flight status warrants wearing BDU's or flight suit today at the Sqdn meeting.  Hot in summer, cold in the winter is the standard.  I never thought the BDU's were any warmer.

WOW  what a forum worrying about silly stuff....wearing Nomex versus BDU's.  If they are not a uniform, NHQ should send a letter to Vanguard, DIRECTING them to clear there shelves, today!!!!

I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered. ;)  Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

^*facepalm* I think I'll layer mine. Blues, then BDUs, and then the flight suit on top. That way I am prepared for everything ;)

WARNING: This entire post is complete and utter sarcasm, proceed with caution!

I typically fly into my Sqd meetings and wear a flight suit. Not a single complaint from anyone yet. Is the fact that I arrive in a plane a driving factor of my uniform choice? You bet. If I drive, I am in blues or golf shirt. If I could find a cover to match my BDU's, I'd wear those.

However, I find I am one of a few that actually wear a uniform to meetings. So perhaps that is why no one argues the point. They are not in uniform to complain about what uniform I am in.

Quote from: SilverEagle2 on March 19, 2009, 04:49:43 PM
I typically fly into my Sqd meetings and wear a flight suit. Not a single complaint from anyone yet. Is the fact that I arrive in a plane a driving factor of my uniform choice? You bet. If I drive, I am in blues or golf shirt. If I could find a cover to match my BDU's, I'd wear those.

However, I find I am one of a few that actually wear a uniform to meetings. So perhaps that is why no one argues the point. They are not in uniform to complain about what uniform I am in.

Uniforms should be worn to CAP meetings.  One could argue that if wearing the golf shirt combo is too much to ask and is some sort of bother...then wearing any clothes at all must be a bother.

I mean, really, short sleeve blues is just a button down shirt, a belt, pants and shoes with a nametag. (you don't even need other badges or ribbons and you can keep the should marks on it if you hang it up after use.)

The Golf shirt is just a polo shirt with grey pants and your choice of shoes and belt.  BDUs are just a shirt, pants, black under[mess], boots, a belt (which you could keep on the pants) and a hat (and a cap at that).

There is nothing to wearing a uniform properly, unless you get your clothes out of a clothing hamper or off the floor for wear.

Honestly, I puzzle at this.

I completely agree. That is why I am in uniform.

Not to mention, I am also on Wing Staff and believe you lead the subordinate units by example.

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 19, 2009, 04:54:56 PMsnip

Uniforms should be worn to CAP meetings.  One could argue that if wearing the golf shirt combo is too much to ask and is some sort of bother...then wearing any clothes at all must be a bother.

snip

Thanks Major, that was a mental picture I didn't need.  (Where's that puking smiley when you want it?)

 I'm not arguing the fact that the flight suit is a uniform.....And I'm not anti-flight suit....If you're flying or going to be flying. This whole thing started when someone mentioned there were several members who show up to meeting in flight suits whether they're flying or not. I just think if you're not going to be flying, then show up in one of the "non-flying" uniforms, that's my whole point. And if you're going to be flying, ok, wear a flight suit, but wear a CAP flight suit.
  I could be wrong about Edwards and the whole Airbase thing as it was a long time ago, but then again, that's regular military (who wear uniforms all the time) and CAP isn't. Why would anyone show up to a meeting in a flight suit if they're not going to be flying?

You ARE wrong.  The flightsuit is NOT just for flying.  Its a utility uniform. 

Please re-read the preceding three sentences until they are clear.  Thank you.

Quote from: es_g0d on March 19, 2009, 09:13:29 PM
You ARE wrong.  The flightsuit is NOT just for flying.  Its a utility uniform. 

By who's definition?  There's certainly no support in any of the texts that supports that assertion.

In fact, on the corporate side there is a flight suit (Nomex), and a utility jumpsuit (not Nomex).

The Air Force allows rated folks to wear the FDU as a normal duty uniform, rather than impose the BDU on those people. Unlike in some CAP corners, the mothership doesn't say "you can only wear it while flying" to rated personnel -- but they say it to people like public affairs officers who don't have wings but may fly with their unit sometimes.

From AFI 36-2903 (emphasis mine):

Quote3.2.  Aircrew Flight Dress Uniforms. (OPR: HQ USAF/A3) MAJCOMs or organizations requiring exception to Flight Dress Uniform (FDU) or aircrew Desert Flight Dress Uniform (DFDU) wear policy should submit Exception to Policy (ETP) request through MAJCOM channels to HQ USAF/A3OT.

3.2.1.  General. Personnel authorized wear of the aircrew FDU/DFDU will comply with this instruction, as well as applicable MAJCOM and installation supplements, regardless of AFSC or unit of assignment. 

3.2.1.1.  The FDU/DFDU is authorized for wear by; personnel assigned to a position identified with Aircrew Position Identifier (API) 1 thru 9 and A thru G (Rated Officers or Career Enlisted Aviators 1AXXX), Rated officers assigned to an API-0 positions that are on active aeronautical orders, or those personnel identified as Operations Support/Non-interference flyers currently on active aeronautical orders to perform inflight aircrew or parachutist duties IAW AFI 11-401, Aviation Management,  Atch 3, or as authorized in AS016.  Additionally, the FDU/DFDU is authorized for wear by personnel in the following Space/Missile Crew AFSCs 13SXA, 13SXB, 13SXC, 13SXD, 13SXE and 1C6XX.  Airmen authorized special articles of clothing under an allowance standard will wear the uniform prescribed by the local unit commander and recommended for the type of mission performed.  FDUs/DFDUs are authorized functional clothing for those authorized individuals performing flying, parachutist, space and missile crew duties:  Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight-related duties associated with aircraft operations.  Space operations duties will be defined by MAJCOM supplement to this instruction.

3.2.1.2.  Flight clothing worn by personnel not on aeronautical orders (authorized under AS016) is restricted to flight-related duties. These personnel may not wear flight clothing on days when actual flying is not planned/anticipated.  EXCEPTION: Space/Missile crew FDU/DFDU wear guidance will be outlined in MAJCOM supplements to this instruction.

3.2.1.3.  The FDU may be worn off base under the same guidelines as the Battle Dress Uniform  (BDU).

The FDU is the flight uniform. But it's more than that -- it's a symbol of a military flying organization. Heck, the FDU is a great recruiting tool. It's a great motivator for cadets, believe it or not, when it's worn by rated personnel on a more regular basis. It helps reinforce for them (and for seniors, and for non-CAP folks) that we're an aviation and Air Force-associated organization.

I'll bet the ban in some wings (at least one, anyway -- mine) is because some yahoo (or more than one) with unmitigated gall and poser's privilege wore an FDU in unauthorized fashion, and that someone's squadron commander apparently didn't enforce common sense. Instead of disciplining the bad actors, leaders take blanket actions. So we all lose out.

A few bad apples... a few bad apples.

(Also: Note paras 3.2 and 3.2.1, which say exceptions or additions to the Air Force's FDU directives must be shipped through channels to HQ USAF/A3 for approval. Just a little curious note there.)

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 08:26:10 PM
I'm not arguing the fact that the flight suit is a uniform.....And I'm not anti-flight suit....If you're flying or going to be flying. This whole thing started when someone mentioned there were several members who show up to meeting in flight suits whether they're flying or not. I just think if you're not going to be flying, then show up in one of the "non-flying" uniforms, that's my whole point. And if you're going to be flying, ok, wear a flight suit, but wear a CAP flight suit.
  I could be wrong about Edwards and the whole Airbase thing as it was a long time ago, but then again, that's regular military (who wear uniforms all the time) and CAP isn't. Why would anyone show up to a meeting in a flight suit if they're not going to be flying?

I was going to leave this alone since it wasn't going anywhere but now it's bugging me again.

Yes, you apparently are anti-flight suit.  You keep saying over and over again that people should not wear flight suits unless they are flying or going to fly.  You want people to show up in a "non-flying" uniform if that is the case yet you don't seem to be advocating that people show up in "non-ground teaming", "non-communicating", "non-administrating" uniforms if they are not performing those functions.

The flight suit is just another approved uniform for aircrew members, nothing more, nothing less.  Cites have been provided to show how the military views the flight suit by its members who have aeronautical orders.  It shouldn't be so hard to see the similarity to CAP.

Quote from: jaybird512 on March 19, 2009, 10:31:58 PM
The flight suit is just another approved uniform for aircrew members, nothing more, nothing less.  Cites have been provided to show how the military views the flight suit by its members who have aeronautical orders.  It shouldn't be so hard to see the similarity to CAP.

There was a time I could see "two Civil Air Patrols," the aviators and those who aren't. But I think I saw that more from the non-aviator side. I now see the "two Civil Air Patrols" as...

... those who are DDR officers and those who aren't.

Seriously, if you see "two" CAPs, it's not anyone's fault but your own, and you're a one-dimensional member. Get involved and see how things work together. If you have a problem with aviators (that's pilots and observers) occasionally wearing the FDU when they're not flying, it may reflect your own issues. They wear specialized uniforms, flame-retardant and all-covering for protective reasons, just as ground teams don't wear blues in the field and out-of-shape members wear (cough) golf shirts.

If you think aviators flaunt their "status" by wearing a flight suit, what about the ground-pounders who proudly wear the BDU over anything else? Or the honor-guard cadets who love those bib scarves and are inseparable from a parade rifle? Come on, already. 

Those who seek that status by being a drug-store cowboy should be penalized, not the rest of us -- they're probably dangers in other ways, not just in seeking affirmation by wearing a uniform in an unauthorized manner.

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 19, 2009, 08:26:10 PM
  I could be wrong about Edwards and the whole Airbase thing as it was a long time ago, but then again, that's regular military (who wear uniforms all the time) and CAP isn't. Why would anyone show up to a meeting in a flight suit if they're not going to be flying?

Rob Sherlin,

Do I have it right that you are in New York Wing?

If you would like, I believe I could line up a mentor for you.

It is a valid interpretation of CAPM 39-1 that you would wear the flightsuit only when performing duties related to flying. It states that it is for Flight Crews members only. It is reasonable to interpret that as when one is performing duties as a flight crew member, you may wear the flightsuit, but if you are performing duties as an administrative officer, for instance, you would wear another uniform.

It is irrelevant what the USAF does in this instance since AFI 36-2903 does not apply to CAP. Our directive is CAPM 39-1.

Quote from: bte on March 20, 2009, 03:01:32 AM
It is a valid interpretation of CAPM 39-1 that you would wear the flightsuit only when performing duties related to flying. It states that it is for Flight Crews members only. It is reasonable to interpret that as when one is performing duties as a flight crew member, you may wear the flightsuit, but if you are performing duties as an administrative officer, for instance, you would wear another uniform.

It is irrelevant what the USAF does in this instance since AFI 36-2903 does not apply to CAP. Our directive is CAPM 39-1.

There is no stipulation in CAPM 39-1 that flight suits only be worn for flying-specific activities, but there is a stipulation that it is for flight crew members only (and that stipulation is only found in the heading at the bottom of page 34).

I would contend that since CAPM 39-1 is so full of gaps, it would benefit every member to read AFI 36-2903. Especially since we wear the Air Force's uniform. Such things are found there that are NOT in CAP regulations:

Quote1.3.  Individuals' Responsibilities.
1.3.1.  To present a professional military image individual will:
1.3.1.1.  Procure and maintain all mandatory clothing items.
1.3.1.2.  Review and follow local supplements and procedures.
1.3.1.3.  Uniforms will be neat, clean, pressed, buttoned, and properly maintained.
1.3.2.  Members will not:
1.3.2.1.  Stand or walk with hands in pockets of any uniform combination, other than to insert or remove items.
1.3.2.2.  Walk in uniform while using cell phones, radios, hands-free headsets unless required in the performance of official duties using a government issued device.   
1.3.2.3.  Smoke/use smokeless tobaccos, drink, or eat while walking in uniform. 

Many of these things are not codified in CAP regulations, but instead are part of an oral tradition passed down in CAP and infused with the knowledge of former military personnel. If we didn't have those things to save us, and only had to depend on CAPM 39-1, the Air Force would've yanked its uniforms from CAP years ago, probably out of sheer embarrassment at how shoddy some of us would look (and you think some members look bad now?).

Or how about...

QuoteNOTES:
1. Uniform clothing may be altered to improve fit.  However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as designed.
2. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.
3. If it is not authorized; it is not authorized for wear.

I think I'd rather see CAP adopt the Air Force instruction straight-up and add a supplement addressing CAP-specific uniforms and uniform items. It'd save a lot of wheel-reinventing.

This one has drifted well outside the scope of the original topic.

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 19, 2009, 04:39:01 PM
I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered. ;)  Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

Quote from: SarDragon on March 20, 2009, 03:35:46 AM

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 19, 2009, 04:39:01 PM
I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered. ;)  Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

You know, if CAP cockpits are suddently "bursting into flames" needing a fire resistant suit...then it make no sense to allow any other types of uniform (golf shirt, blues, BDUs et al) to be worn at all.

I'm just pointing out this odd duality.

But even if the cockpit bursts into flames, I believe customs and courtesies must be followed. Or at least the proper protocols of having the PIC lead the crew in bailout procedures, regardless of his grade.

(See, Mike? I'm helping steer back on topic.)   ;D

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 20, 2009, 03:39:02 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on March 20, 2009, 03:35:46 AM

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 19, 2009, 04:39:01 PM
I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered. ;)  Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

You know, if CAP cockpits are suddently "bursting into flames" needing a fire resistant suit...then it make no sense to allow any other types of uniform (golf shirt, blues, BDUs et al) to be worn at all.

I'm just pointing out this odd duality.

The only odd duality I'm seeing is how some people can't equate duty uniforms.

CAP cockpits as well as other aircraft cockpits don't spontaneously burst into flames, but there are several other in-flight or ground emergencies where nomex would be beneficial at some point.  It's kinda like cops wearing ballistic vests where you may not be hit in that spot but it sure helps if you are.

Customs and courtesies should be observed when wearing any uniform including the flight suit when discussing the topic of the thread...

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 20, 2009, 03:39:02 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on March 20, 2009, 03:35:46 AM

Quote from: Climbnsink on March 19, 2009, 04:39:01 PM
I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered. ;)  Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

You know, if CAP cockpits are suddently "bursting into flames" needing a fire resistant suit...then it make no sense to allow any other types of uniform (golf shirt, blues, BDUs et al) to be worn at all.

I'm just pointing out this odd duality.

And in some places, like CAWG, you can not fly powered aircraft in anything other then a nomex flight suit.
Exceptions being CN missions where the customer specifically requests "no uniforms'.

I believe a black T-shirt is regulation under the Air Force flight suit. If CAPM 39-1 doesn't stipulate (and it probably doesn't, as haphazard as it's written and presented), AFI 36-2903 says so.

An earlier poster said the golf shirt he wears under the flight suit, he can turn the collar up. No, no, no golf shirt underneath. Get the CAP scarf and you'll do just as well, if not better, plus buy into an Air Force tradition.

And yes, customs and courtesies must be observed at all times in the flight-duty uniform, as well as in the other Air Force uniforms. The uniform is a symbol of our nation -- not just a personal statement of service. Respect the uniform as though you were wearing the flag. And part of that respect is showing proper respect to military tradition through customs and courtesies.

Proper customs and courtesies and proper uniform wear are bedrock disciplines. If you can't do either right, how do I know you won't cut corners when it comes to something affecting the mission at hand? How do I know you won't embellish or disregard an order?

^^^Hint:  AFIs apply to Air Force personnel - not CAP.

The biggest issue with enforcing customs/courtesies and uniform wear is defining what is proper customs/courtesies and uniform wear.  CAP sure hasn't done it. 

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on March 20, 2009, 05:06:50 AM
I believe a black T-shirt is regulation under the Air Force flight suit. If CAPM 39-1 doesn't stipulate (and it probably doesn't, as haphazard as it's written and presented), AFI 36-2903 says so.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Page 64, Table 2-4. Men's and Women's Flight Suit
Undergarments - White, black or brown T-shirts are authorized.

Climbnsink was clearly joking about wearing the polo under the flight suit. Seriously guys and gals lighten up!

Let me try to rephrase the terminology being used. We should respect each other no matter the type of clothes we wear.

Does that work for everyone? Or do some of you enjoy being disrespected?

 I'm sorry you think I'm anti-flightsuit (eventually, I plan on wearing one too).

It seems to be that what should be done is....The commanding officer should state what uniforms to wear at certain meetings. If there's no flying going on, have everyone wear something else. I would tend to choose more to....If I'm flying, I wear a flight suit....If it's field work or outdoor training, my BDU's...If it's indoor class, my Blues/CSU...Dress for dress... Jumpsuit for utility, etc.

  And yes, it probably is the few "bad apples" stated in that one post that makes me feel this way. But, it's always those few "bad apples" (whether it be in the military, society, or volunteer organization)  that cause a lot rules to be made and forced upon everybody. And it should be dealt with before it gets that far....Thus getting back to the original topic....Wear the correct uniform for a function, and wear it right.

I find it interesting, and even a little heartwarming, that the majority of the forum agrees (!) regarding the flightsuit.  I was honestly pretty frustrated when I made my previous post.  So thank you, true believers!

Even more interesting is that many individuals have noted obvious lack of clarity in our Civil Air Patrol body of guidance, in this case CAPR 39-1.  And in that void, many are looking to similar Air Force guidance.  While Air Force regulations are not binding on CAP members, they do provide a good reference.  In some cases, CAP has adopted Air Force guidance verbatim: Drill and Ceremonies is an excellent example.

In truth, though, this is unfortunate.  Why couldn't AFI 36-2903 have a chapter entitled, "Civil Air Patrol Uniforms," and incorporate its auxiliary throughout the regulation?  This would provide a lot of milage both for the regular Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol.  Customs, courtesies, and just plain general knowledge throughout all components of the service (active, reserve, guard, auxiliary) couldn't help but to be improved.  Enforcement begins with knowledge.

(PS I'm wearing a flightsuit as I write this ... and yes, I did just finish a flight-related activity: FLYING!)  :D

 Well, all this "flight suit" stuff seems to be a matter of opinion, considering the regs state nothing about it and is basically up to the unit/squadron commander. I'll ask tonight at my meeting, but I can almost guarantee what the answer's going to be knowing there's several members who have aeronautical ratings, and fly, but don't wear the bags when they're not flying.
  As for a mentor, I'll ask if I need one from another unit/squadron.....unless they're a CFI and they can help me get my wings at a cheaper cost, I don't see why...on the other hand, I don't see where it can hurt...I guess whatever uniform I'm told to wear, that's what I'll wear. And I expect to be corrected if I'm wearing it impoperly, or I'm out of sync. with the custom and courtesy policies.

Quote from: PHall on March 20, 2009, 04:55:01 AM
And in some places, like CAWG, you can not fly powered aircraft in anything other then a nomex flight suit.
Exceptions being CN missions where the customer specifically requests "no uniforms'.

I can't seem to be able to find a single current Supplement or OI that states this. Does anyone have the reference for this?

Lock.