There has been a mini-discusion over on military.com about an issue, but since there are only about 4 people on the CAP board, there isn't much diversity of opinion, so I thought I'd bring this up here:
Do CAP officers
A. Initiates salutes to all military officers no matter the rank of the officer or the grade of the CAP officer? OR
B. Do CAP officers only initiate salutes to military officers whose rank is higher than the CAP officers grade?
In other words, would a CAP Major initiate a salute to an AF 2nd Lt. or only initiate salutes to Lt. Col or higher?
The relevant document is CAPP 151 which says:
QuoteYou salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.
It has been the contention of some that since CAP officers hold "grade" and not "rank" (according to CAPR 35-5) that this passage in 151 means that CAP officers should initiate salutes to all military officers since they all "outrank" us.
It is my contention that this interpretation doesn't make sense because if it was true and no CAP officer really held rank then a military officer couldn't outrank us. The sentence assumes that CAP members hold some rank.
I have always been taught that in CAP you salute those officers whose insignia outranks yours.
If A is true, then if a CAP Lt. Col. salutes a AF 2nd Lieutenant, that 2nd Lt is going to either think the CAP person doesn't understand basic military saluting rules or assume that the Lt. Col. is just trolling for salutes. Either way CAP comes out looking bad.
What do you guys think?
The Iowa National Guard has made it clear that CAP officers are to aslute officers who wear insignia senior to he officer in question.
And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia
In this case I think rank/grade is the same difference. L2K: AB SE even says that the terms are often used interchangeably despite being defined therein. So my interpretation is that as a Capt I must initiate salutes to Maj and above, but am not required to initiate salutes to persons of like rank/grade and below.
If you were to go by the L2K: AB SE definition of rank... you would have to know the date of grade of the people of the same grade as yourself to determine who is senior/junior.
L2K:AB SE ??? ???
I think it's clear that you would only salute military officers that hold a higher rank than you, the CAP Officer.
A lot of military officers don't know about CAP or if they do, they aren't clear as to where we stand. I'm not going to salute a 2nd Lt in the Real Military™and I'm sure he wouldn't expect me to. As military members are taught to salute officers of foreign allied militaries, I would [loosely] assume they would think similarily about CAP officers.
My guess is that the military officers that salute me, as a CAP Lt Col, are the ones who don't know anything about CAP. The ones that don't salute me do know about CAP and purposely don't salute to make sure we know they aren't obligated to do so.
A salute and $9.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I'm not too concerned about it and I'm sure most military members aren't either.
If we begin to Quibble over saluting than we should just remove the uniform. However, on a recent trip to a Military base 90% of the CAP officers were untrained,and forgot the process of saluting. I braced them in the parking lot and chewed butt. Either we do a better job training our officers or we should end the charade. It is a dishonor to the uniform of the armed sevices to have this happen. And make no mistake about it Civil Air Patrol IS WEARING A UNIFORM OF THE ARMED SERVICES.
Bob Kirby, Captain CAP
Mitchell 1972
My experience has been that the CAP senior members that aren't so interested in the military aspect of CAP tend to wear non-military attire, like the blue polo and gray slacks.
All those seniors that I've worked with who wear the military uniform (BDUs or Blues) are generally pretty knowledgable and comfortable with rendering military customs and courtesies, aka saluting.
I think, if you have members in your squadron who do wear military style uniforms, but don't know the ins and outs of military customs and courtesies, there is only one person to blame, their leadership, be it the leadership officers, deputy commander for seniors or squadron commander.
As a squadron commander, I've had new seniors, the ones without prior cadet or military experience, join the Training Flight cadets during their customs and courtesies phase of training. After that, if there are any other questions, we've done a little C&C training ourselves.
These days, with TLC (Training Leaders of Cadets) there is a block of instruction for military customs and courtesies as it relates to working with cadets. I personally taught this block at a recent TLC and those seniors seemed genuinely appreciative of having been taught the right way.
We are hitting D&C/C&C pretty hard in our upcoming OTS class. For the first 3 weeks, the new Officer Pre-candidates do nothing but learn how their subordinates are supposed to act; ie how to take orders. After that, we start teaching them about CAP and how to give them while expecting obedience.
I would suggest initiating salutes only for those military officers senior in grade.
The average butterbar has enough troubles without trying to figure out why the captain or major in the odd outfit is saluting him/her!
Quote from: wingnut on August 25, 2007, 03:51:07 AM
or we should end the charade.
Just finally end the rank charade (it doen't mean anything in this organization).
God bless the aircrew that paid the ultimate price for helping another. I would like to know what the preliminary FAA invesitigation states.
Quote from: 2bLT on August 25, 2007, 07:36:52 AM
Just finally end the rank charade (it doen't mean anything in this organization).
Obviously it DOES. The AF hasn't taken it away from us, so they surely believe it has some value left. It may not mean much to you, or some people. I certainly don't think it's a charade. I'm sorry that you feel this way about it, but I take pride in our history; I don't throw it away because it could be improved.
Semper Vigilans, Semper Fidelis.
ALWAYS Vigilant, and ALWAYS FAITHFUL
I've never been a fan of us using the RM's insignia, but as long as we're wearing it we observe the same customs. Salute those of higher rank and return the salutes of those with lesser.
I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program. The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.
The mere fact that personnel present this as a matter of discussion is cause for embarrassment.
The salute from a CAP Senior members to real officers should be to those of higher grade than the CAP senior.
Some people say "well, they have a comission, so tecnically they ALL have higher grade than us."
We salute because of military tradition. Military tradition dictates that Captains don't salute 2d Lts. So it only makes you look dumb if a CAP Major is popping salutes to 2d Lts because they hold a comission.
First off, just because someone holds a comission doesn't mean that they outrank CAP members. While I am conflicted about CAP being a military organization, as long as we wear the uniform, and wear the insignia, we should act like it.
So, SM 1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.
By the way, why does CAPP151 say that we're suppose to salute MoH winners? I haven't been able to find anything to that effect in federal law or military protocol books.
Officer Rank insignia:
If you don't like it, buy Golf-shirts and stay away from Cadets.
If you do wear it, try to live up to the ideal. . . .
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 03:16:31 PM
So, SM 1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.
USAFVR(T)? >:D Where do I collect my commission and pay?
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 03:16:31 PM
By the way, why does CAPP151 say that we're suppose to salute MoH winners? I haven't been able to find anything to that effect in federal law or military protocol books.
You won't; it doesn't exist.
RE: Medal of Honor
It is a military custom for all military personnel to salute MoH recipients. However, it is argued that the salute is not for the recipeint, but for the medal itself and what it represents.
Since it is a custom, it is covered by our "customs and courtesies" pamphlet.
I have yet to find any regulation or public law that mandates the salute for MoH recipients. However, I believe it would be rather distasteful for you not to salute someone who has received the HIGHEST military decoration the country can present.
Quote from: O-Rex on August 25, 2007, 03:18:51 PM
Officer Rank insignia:
If you don't like it, buy Golf-shirts and stay away from Cadets.
If you do wear it, try to live up to the ideal. . . .
I don't know if this is unique to our squadron or if it's CAP wide, but our largest group of Golf shirt people are retired commissoned officers!
I agree though. If you're in a uniform take pride in it and meet the standard. Even then, if your in the Golf Shirt (And I do wear it sometimes) make sure it's neat and clean.
Quote from: flyerthom on August 25, 2007, 03:34:34 PM
I don't know if this is unique to our squadron or if it's CAP wide, but our largest group of Golf shirt people are retired commissoned officers!
Like many things, it varies by squadron. In DCWG I'd say 90% of our seniors were prior service, retired, active duty, or serving in the guard/reserves. It was an oddity of sorts to see a senior outside of the military style uniforms. I'm not talking 3 or 4 seniors, I'm talking closer to the twenties.
The great thing about CAP, and probably one of its downfalls, is that you can do whatever you want and not get in trouble. You can be as military as you want or the biggest, bearded slouching pro-civilian/anti-military guy you wish to be. All ya gotta do is show up in a polo shirt and gray slacks and fly. You'll never have to salute and you can even make fun of the folks who do take the military aspect of CAP seriously.
Quote from: MIKE on August 25, 2007, 03:20:32 PM
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 03:16:31 PM
So, SM 1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.
USAFVR(T)? >:D Where do I collect my commission and pay?
See, I'm all for that Captain, I think the British model of doing cadets is way better then our system. I to have our officers comissioned, even at the cost of having the bulk of our SMs loss their 'comissions' for enlisted stripes.
Not to disrespect Medal of Honor winners, but I'd prefer to see something in writing before I teach my cadets it.
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 04:07:05 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 25, 2007, 03:20:32 PM
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 03:16:31 PM
So, SM 1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.
USAFVR(T)? >:D Where do I collect my commission and pay?
See, I'm all for that Captain, I think the British model of doing cadets is way better then our system. I to have our officers comissioned, even at the cost of having the bulk of our SMs loss their 'comissions' for enlisted stripes.
Not to mention the numbers that would be forced to retire from uniformed service at 55. >:D
Quote from: MIKE on August 25, 2007, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 04:07:05 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 25, 2007, 03:20:32 PM
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 03:16:31 PM
So, SM 1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.
USAFVR(T)? >:D Where do I collect my commission and pay?
See, I'm all for that Captain, I think the British model of doing cadets is way better then our system. I to have our officers comissioned, even at the cost of having the bulk of our SMs loss their 'comissions' for enlisted stripes.
Not to mention the numbers that would be forced to retire from uniformed service at 55. >:D
For those who aren't farmilar, in the British Air Training Corps cadet programs, they're adult officers are part of the RAF Volunteer Reserve (Training). All of their officers hold the Queens comission, and are paid for their service.
However, the bulk of their adult members aren't officers. The first level of adult membership is Civilian Insturctors, who hold no rank, wear no uniform, and are normally recruited to do a certain job within the unit, ie Aerospace Education, etc etc etc.
The next level of membership is the NCO corps. CI's apply to become an Adult Sergeant, which is followed by Adult Flight Sergeant and Adult Warrant Officer. The Adult NCOs are ultimately responsible for disipline, drill, and uniform wear in the unit, althrough its really their job to teach the Cadet NCOs of the unit those skills.
From adult NCOs ranks, adult members can then apply for a comission into the RAF, followed by a week long training course, etc etc.
Quote from: Stonewall on August 25, 2007, 09:26:45 AM
I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program. The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.
I'm not anti-military rank structure, I'm just not the biggest fan of using commissioned insignia. I know that ours has been modified to some degree, etc.... I was a cadet, and a cadet officer and the insignia used for that purpose is perfect and definitely necessary for a military style organization.
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 04:07:05 PM
Not to disrespect Medal of Honor winners, but I'd prefer to see something in writing before I teach my cadets it.
Then read the pamphlet referred to in earlier posts....that's what it is there for, to ensure that CAP is aware of military
customs....this isn't a rule or regulation, it is a standard practice, commonly accepted and expected (much like the non-wearing of ribbons on short sleeve blue shirt by USAF officers).
As far as I know, the RAFVR(T) officers are engaged solely in running their Air Cadets....no SAR/DR/CD/HLS role, aerospace ed only within context of cadet training.....comparing them to CAP is a case of 'apples & oranges', two different organization with different histories and different missions.
The British program is probably more akin to AFJROTC than CAP.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on August 25, 2007, 03:07:29 AM
And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia
Wow.....I don't like that. I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS? No thank you. When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!
Quote from: jaybird512 on August 25, 2007, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on August 25, 2007, 09:26:45 AM
I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program. The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.
I'm not anti-military rank structure, I'm just not the biggest fan of using commissioned insignia. I know that ours has been modified to some degree, etc.... I was a cadet, and a cadet officer and the insignia used for that purpose is perfect and definitely necessary for a military style organization.
umm......it has been OK for what, 60+ years. Whats your big problem with it? thousands of organizations all of this country use it. Why not keep tradition. What would you like to see in its place? Dots and diamonds? Then people would take us more seriously?? ???
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 25, 2007, 07:32:15 PM
As far as I know, the RAFVR(T) officers are engaged solely in running their Air Cadets....no SAR/DR/CD/HLS role, aerospace ed only within context of cadet training.....comparing them to CAP is a case of 'apples & oranges', two different organization with different histories and different missions.
The British program is probably more akin to AFJROTC than CAP.
Well, the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve itself has an operational mission above and beyond Cadets, but the Training Branch is pure cadets.
Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 04:07:05 PM
Not to disrespect Medal of Honor winners, but I'd prefer to see something in writing before I teach my cadets it.
Here ya go dude....
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_030404103648.ppt#263,8,Saluting
http://cadets.ndcap.org/JDCLE/forms/CAPP-151.pdf
or
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf
Quote from: CAPP 151 (E), section A para2(b)
b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a
greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never
inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules
regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all
Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and
warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.
(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in
both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or
another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this
case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good
Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual
and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but
whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute"
area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute"
areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a
work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail
salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a
sports event.
(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in
government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that
identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers
and military wing or base commanders).
(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute
to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if
they desire.
And some more food for thought....
Quote from: CAPP 151 (E)2. Customs and Courtesies. Military customs and courtesies
are proven traditions that explain what should and should not be
done. They are acts of respect and courtesy in dealing with other
people. They have evolved as a result of the need for order, as
well as the mutual respect and sense of fraternity that exist
among military personnel. The Civil Air Patrol shares in that
tradition.
.....and a hearty salute out to ya'll for doing what you do! Please continue to wear the uniform and rank with pride....salute those wearing rank above your grade...and smartly return salutes offered to you from those junior in grade to yourself....including real military officers and enlisted.
If you're an O-4 wearing your uniform and I walked up to you wearing mine (AD Navy)...I'd give you a salute just out of courtesy and because
we're basically on the same team!
Let's put one more thing to rest...about the saluting ALL real military officers even those junior in grade to you....
Quote from: CAPP 151 (E)
2) You salute the President of the United States, all
Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and
warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.
That means if you're a 2nd Lt you do not initiate a salute to a warrant officer but you would if you were a CAP non-commissioned officer. You also do not initiate a salute to a real military O-3 if you're a CAP O-4.....are we clear?
/r
LT
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 25, 2007, 08:43:37 PM
Wow.....I don't like that. I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS? No thank you. When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!
Just the other day the Secretary of the Navy visited us here on the USS Peleliu....He is a civilian...just as the President is....and rates not only salutes but bells and gun salutes.
Military members salute civilians as a matter of course. It's not a stretch to have a LTC (Lt Col) salute a CAP member of higher grade. Why all the fuss? A salute is a courtesy similar to a handshake more often than not. While real military members by law are required to render the appropriate C&C to other real military members....you're aforementioned Lt Col may not have to salute a CAP member of higher grade, but would probably do so out of military courtesy. Hence, the Lt Col proves once again that he is an "officer and a gentleman".....
something a lot of CAP members could learn something about ....
Hear Hear!
QuoteHonestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.
Some would say the same thing about the cadet program in reference to ES
Quote from: isuhawkeye on August 25, 2007, 10:33:15 PM
QuoteHonestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.
Some would say the same thing about the cadet program in reference to ES
Good. That's their view, and their view is as good as mine.
Which is why I would love to seperate the CP from everything else.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 25, 2007, 08:53:04 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on August 25, 2007, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on August 25, 2007, 09:26:45 AM
I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program. The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.
I'm not anti-military rank structure, I'm just not the biggest fan of using commissioned insignia. I know that ours has been modified to some degree, etc.... I was a cadet, and a cadet officer and the insignia used for that purpose is perfect and definitely necessary for a military style organization.
umm......it has been OK for what, 60+ years. Whats your big problem with it? thousands of organizations all of this country use it. Why not keep tradition. What would you like to see in its place? Dots and diamonds? Then people would take us more seriously?? ???
Exactly....c'mon people, what is your problem? If you don't like wearing the rank then wear the polo shirt! That's the beauty (and in my opinion the biggest problem) of the schizophrenic CAP uniform program.
As a CAP member you wear a uniform of the United States. Many programs us the U.S. rank structure. Wear it with pride!
I hear lurking in the background of these threads the feeling of fear with using the U.S. rank structure. Maybe it's the fear of a few rogue individuals who want to play military by "flexing" their rank and issuing or actually shouting out orders to people or demanding respect and salutes from real military members. Is that what all this is about??
Really now fellow CAP'ers....the likelyhood of that actually happening is just so low. Unfortunatly we have had a high profile case years ago with a certain national commander demanding....what was it.....a general officer parking space or something like that?
And now with security tighter than ever before, you would expect some young real military E-1,2,3 (etc) to know who is in their chain of command and who can give them a direct order. Anything beyond that brings up questions and eventually an investigation resulting in the rogue CAP member being sent to jail (possibly Leavenworth) for impersonating an officer (worst case scenario).
ID cards are checked for everyone. CAC cards are needed for computer access and access to some buildings. Heck, the AF just did away with DOD stickers on vehicles because of security issues.
The point is that if somebody comes up to you wearing officer rank and demands you to follow an order it will be very clear who it is such as: 1) an MP officer with gun/dog/vehicle, 2) Recognized base command officers (pictures everywhere), 3) clearly marked command vehicles with plate on the front and escorts, 4) Situational awareness---you're deployed overseas and your platoon leader issues an order to "take that hill"; You get the idea. Anyone else you can verify by asking who they are and see their ID card and follow up with a phone call to an immediate supervisor.
So, any truth to my opinion about those reluctant to use the U.S. military rank structure? We can ask to use the old soviet rank structure instead--I hear they won't be using it for awhile ;)
v/r
LT
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 25, 2007, 08:43:37 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on August 25, 2007, 03:07:29 AM
And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia
Wow.....I don't like that. I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS? No thank you. When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!
Sorry mikeylikey....you're my cannon fodder for today!
Just some more "food for thought"; what is a "commissioned officer"?
A little Wiki for ya:
Quote from: from Wikipedia.org
An officer is a member of a military, naval, or if applicable, other uniformed services who holds a position of responsibility.
Commissioned officers derive authority directly from a sovereign power and, as such, hold a commission charging them with the duties and responsibilities of a specific office or position. Commissioned officers are typically the only persons in a military environment able to exercise command (according to the most technical definition of the word) over a military unit.
Begs the question about "sovereign" power then right?
Quote from: Wikipedia.org
Sovereignty is the exclusive right to complete political (e.g. legislative, judicial, and/or executive) authority over an area of governance, people, or oneself.
CAP NHQ anybody?
But don't confuse "sovereignty" with "a sovereign"
Quote from: Wikipedia.org
A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority, subject to no other, and most often the head of state. Thus the legal maxim, "there is no law without a sovereign."
Sorry TP.... ;)
Commissions are held by military and civilian members. A commission can be invested in the individual (uniformed officer, federal judge, police officer, etc) or a group ( the Warren Commission, the Kettl Commission).
So brave souls....are you ready for it? Congradulations! You ARE commissioned officers ;D
Though you receive no monitary instrumentalities as compensation for your service and you commission has no "gravitas" beyond the realm of CAP, you do have a commission. Live with it, wear it with pride, enjoy it! You deserve it.
v/r
LT
I'm on a roll today because I'm no longer a "wog"! I'm reporting aboard this board today as a newly minted "shellback"! Quite a sight to see the Jolly Roger flag fly on a US Navy warship today!!
did you kiss his belly???
;)
Congrads on passing the equater
Quote from: sandman on August 25, 2007, 11:57:31 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 25, 2007, 08:43:37 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on August 25, 2007, 03:07:29 AM
And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia
Wow.....I don't like that. I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS? No thank you. When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!
Sorry mikeylikey....you're my cannon fodder for today!
Just some more "food for thought"; what is a "commissioned officer"?
A little Wiki for ya:
Quote from: from Wikipedia.org
An officer is a member of a military, naval, or if applicable, other uniformed services who holds a position of responsibility.
Commissioned officers derive authority directly from a sovereign power and, as such, hold a commission charging them with the duties and responsibilities of a specific office or position. Commissioned officers are typically the only persons in a military environment able to exercise command (according to the most technical definition of the word) over a military unit.
Begs the question about "sovereign" power then right?
Quote from: Wikipedia.org
Sovereignty is the exclusive right to complete political (e.g. legislative, judicial, and/or executive) authority over an area of governance, people, or oneself.
CAP NHQ anybody?
But don't confuse "sovereignty" with "a sovereign"
Quote from: Wikipedia.org
A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority, subject to no other, and most often the head of state. Thus the legal maxim, "there is no law without a sovereign."
Sorry TP.... ;)
Commissions are held by military and civilian members. A commission can be invested in the individual (uniformed officer, federal judge, police officer, etc) or a group ( the Warren Commission, the Kettl Commission).
So brave souls....are you ready for it? Congradulations! You ARE commissioned officers ;D
Though you receive no monitary instrumentalities as compensation for your service and you commission has no "gravitas" beyond the realm of CAP, you do have a commission. Live with it, wear it with pride, enjoy it! You deserve it.
v/r
LT
I'm on a roll today because I'm no longer a "wog"! I'm reporting aboard this board today as a newly minted "shellback"! Quite a sight to see the Jolly Roger flag fly on a US Navy warship today!!
FROM "The Armed Forces Officer"
1–3. A Commission is Never Lightly Given
a. The new officer is given a commission stating that the president of the United States has granted the officer
authority, having reposed "special trust and confidence" in the "patriotism, valor, fidelity and abilities" of that officer.
b.
A commission is never lightly given. It must be earned and deserved. It does not mean that the officer instantly becomes a leader. It means the officer has been found worthy to enter a profession that dedicates itself to the leadership of American fighting forces and the defense of the nation.
Ok......SO I should have said "When a civilian undertakes what has to be to become a Commissioned
Armed Forces Officer..."
Also......don't take everything from Wikipedia as basis to back up your stance. I think if I wanted to, I could change that whole quote you took from Wiki in like 2 minutes.
I also think the only people that are "commissioned officers" in CAP if we ever had to get down and dirty about it would be the Corporate Officers only. They are the only equivilant individuals.
Lets not forget this quaote from the AFI (10-2701) on CAP.gov......
1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval
of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or
noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces.CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated
according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the
CAP grade structure.
So........
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 09:13:23 PM
Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.
ALmost certainly not going to happen.....but I suspect (as a former cadet officer myself) that many cadets would not want to see the two separated.....one thing that distinguishes CAP cadets from Young Marines, Sea Cadets and so forth is the opportunity to train and serve in ES.
Mikeylikey,
I see the problem here. You want to compare CAP officers with real military officers...
To quote myself:
QuoteThough you receive no monitary instrumentalities as compensation for your service and you commission has no "gravitas" beyond the realm of CAP
I am not comparing CAP officers with real military officers. Regardless of Wikipedia's credibility problems, the definition of a "commission" still holds true.
To quote you:
Quote from: mikeylikeyLets not forget this quaote from the AFI (10-2701) on CAP.gov......
1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval
of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or
noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces
And as you've rightly pointed out, CAP officers have no authority over members of the armed forces. No dispute there. Let's study what the AFI is saying about status.
This is an Air Force Instruction which gives guidance regarding CAP status within the USAF structure. As such CAP officers do not have a military commission conferred upon them by the President of the United States (....that sovereign thing)
In the general idea of a "commission" however an individual CAP officer has been granted a commission within the structure of the CAP by the powers that be within CAP NHQ and CAP, Inc. (...that sovereign thing again) That commission is not perpetual in nature and terminates within a certain time limit unless vacated by renewal procedures initiated by the individual commissioned officer (paid you dues recently?). The commission may also be terminated by actions initiated by a command authority (piss off your squadron commander recently?).
I have no doubt that you understand that and that I'm "preaching to the choir". Generally speaking you hold a commission. Heck, you can commission youself to go mown the lawn for all that matters; semantics I say.
Quote from: mikeylikey
So........
So...so what? ;)
/r
LT
Quote from: sandman on August 26, 2007, 02:56:05 AM
I have no doubt that you understand that and that I'm "preaching to the choir". Generally speaking you hold a commission. Heck, you can commission youself to go mown the lawn for all that matters; semantics I say.
I frequently commission cadets to go get me a soda.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on August 25, 2007, 11:59:22 PM
did you kiss his belly???
;)
Congrads on passing the equater
Thanks! Feels good.
Medical went through first I believe because of the varied ranks and non-ranks within the group, and I think Neptunis Rex and Davy Jones went a little easier on us because of it...
We had several O-6 Captains go through with us from the Navy and USPHS. Many civilians went through including a young lady volunteer of 64 years old from Project Hope. Our Air Force nurses (O-3's and O-4's) went through so you now have "shellback" USAF members! I had to go through the tar and feathers twice cause I was twice as "nice". Only blew kisses at royal baby....didn't have to suck the cherry out thank goodness ;)
I was thinking of putting out a call to all medical (and even non-medical) CAP persons who might want to volunteer for a voyage like this. I have the MOU's almost ready to go....and you could serve in uniform! Any medical people out there?
Volunteers have spent a week up to and including the whole four months. You buy the ticket to the embarkation pier and back (wherever you want to embark and disembark, some have come in via Philippines, Vietnam, Guam, Singapore etc). No cost for meals or berthing. Any one interested?
Oh, and in keeping in spirit with this thread, you will salute the ensign and OOD while crossing the brow and you will get a chance to exchange salutes with real military (U.S. and Foreign) all the time while in port or anchored, the custom WILL be expected and observed.
/r
LT
Quote from: JC004 on August 26, 2007, 03:00:40 AM
Quote from: sandman on August 26, 2007, 02:56:05 AM
I have no doubt that you understand that and that I'm "preaching to the choir". Generally speaking you hold a commission. Heck, you can commission youself to go mown the lawn for all that matters; semantics I say.
I frequently commission cadets to go get me a soda.
There you go! See? Lighten up and don't take it too seriously. Quit making comparisons with the real military or at least don't read too deep into it. Follow the general guidelines of customs and courtesies, take pride in the fact that you're helping Big Blue, relax and enjoy. Inculcate into those young skulls full of mush (cadets, that means you) the big picture of what those endless days of D&C mean......self dicipline and self respect as well as respect for authority and others (something SEVERELY lacking in todays youth).
Let the professionalism that you have exude its influence on others around you, or if lacking in certain aspects of that ideal, seek a mentor that has the leadership qualities of a military (or civil) leader. Like the bright but brief glint of a finely honed sword distant in the sunlight so shines a well excuted salute to a real military officer.....it just catches 'em off guard. You may not see the sword off in the distance but you know (or hope) it's there because the training, professionalism, and pride is the sword unseen.
Here mikeylikey, if not Wiki, will Merriam-Webster do??
Quote from: www.m-w.comMain Entry: 1com·mis·sion
Pronunciation: k&-'mi-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin commission-, commissio act of bringing together, from committere
1 a : a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties b : a certificate conferring military rank and authority; also : the rank and authority so conferred
2 : an authorization or command to act in a prescribed manner or to perform prescribed acts : CHARGE
3 a : authority to act for, in behalf of, or in place of another b : a task or matter entrusted to one as an agent for another
4 a : a group of persons directed to perform some duty b : a government agency having administrative, legislative, or judicial powers c : a city council having legislative and executive functions
5 : an act of committing something <commission of a crime>
6 : a fee paid to an agent or employee for transacting a piece of business or performing a service; especially : a percentage of the money received from a total paid to the agent responsible for the business
7 : an act of entrusting or giving authority
- in commission or into commission
1 : under the authority of commissioners
2 of a ship : ready for active service
3 : in use or in condition for use
- on commission : with commission serving as partial or full pay for work done
- out of commission
1 : out of active service or use
2 : out of working order
Remember, don't focus on just 1(a), read all and understand.....
v/r
LT
Go Army, beat Navy! :P
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 01:18:46 AM
FROM "The Armed Forces Officer"
1–3. A Commission is Never Lightly Given
a. The new officer is given a commission stating that the president of the United States has granted the officer
authority, having reposed "special trust and confidence" in the "patriotism, valor, fidelity and abilities" of that officer.
Wow, where do I start?
Reposed. or
rely. Yes, a military commission is a trust in the individuals oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America....The President relys upon the individual to adhere to his or her oath.
Patriotism. I went to the recruiter and signed up.
Valor. I still signed up even after the recruiter told me some lies.
Fidelity. I signed up and swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic....I actually went through basic military training and didn't "cop out" when asked/directed to do various jobs. I also signed up for another tour.
Abilities. Passed the physical. Got a qualifying degree (officers or certain enlisted fields). Passed basic military training. Agreed to do a job.
You can say the same thing about CAP officers too...except for the degree thing....and the basic training thing....can't say much about the "cop out" thing though...........dang, gotta retool that thought ;D
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 01:18:46 AM
b. A commission is never lightly given. It must be earned and deserved.
Eh?? Maybe for some combat arms branches.....otherwise get a college degree and don't have any felony convictions
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 01:18:46 AM
It does not mean that the officer instantly becomes a leader[/b]. It means the officer has been found worthy to enter a profession that dedicates itself to the leadership of American fighting forces and the defense of the nation.
Yep....another entry level job.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 01:18:46 AM
Ok......SO I should have said "When a civilian undertakes what has to be to become a Commissioned Armed Forces Officer..."
Fair enough, I agree!
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 01:18:46 AM
Also......don't take everything from Wikipedia as basis to back up your stance. I think if I wanted to, I could change that whole quote you took from Wiki in like 2 minutes.
I don't. I took one thing that actually had merit. This is all "tongue 'n' cheek" anyway ;)
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 01:18:46 AM
I also think the only people that are "commissioned officers" in CAP if we ever had to get down and dirty about it would be the Corporate Officers only. They are the only equivilant individuals.
I could concede that....but why are you trying to sell youself short? I am mearly pointing out the basis for a "commission"...not a federal, state, county, or city commission. I'm simply trying to steer many away from constantly comparing themselves to the real military.....it only feeds your misery and self doubt.....it erodes you confidence and professionalism.
v/r
LT
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 25, 2007, 08:43:37 PM
Wow.....I don't like that. I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS? No thank you. When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!
Gee, a superior Officer- the TAG says: You will all salute CAP Officers as our own; you would disobey? ??? I know I'm paraphrasing, and most likely poorly, you would go against orders? I don't think you really know how well IAWG and IA A/NG get along. They really do well together. One of the comments made by some of the NG has been along the lines of:
Soldier: "Man, doing PT in the Cold is really fun."
NCO: "Look, CAP cadets are doing PT as well."
Soldier: "So what?"
NCO: "They aren't paid. They chose to do this."
Soldier: :o
There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa, what can you say for YOUR wing?
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 26, 2007, 04:21:46 AM
There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa, what can you say for YOUR wing?
I can say that our hats are more orange than yours.
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 26, 2007, 04:21:46 AM
There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa, what can you say for YOUR wing?
I would have to say PAWG sucks! From the orange hats, to the all Ranger Squadrons. From the Wing Commander who wanted to have his term extended, to an overpaid Executive Director at the Headquarters who has had the position for almost 14 years.
RogueLeader, you got me. I can not say anything that will make PAWG look good. I can try, but I would only embarrass the membership. The Wing is backwards, the leadership is all from one side of the State, the logistics are in a terrible state of decay, there is no good relationship with the National Guard, vehicles and aircraft are distributed based on friendships, there is an apparent nepotism problem throughout the wing, the State Director has said that New Jersey is 1 million times better than the PAWG, encampment and cadet activity costs are at an all time high, there is little funding for training as most of the appropriations go toward HAWK MTN. I could go on and on......but I am getting tired.
In summary, PAWG is the worst wing in the country. You may ask why I don't leave, well I don't agree with living in one state and belonging to a CAP unit in another. However, Delaware wing is looking very good these days!
For those of you in PAWG (General Colgan), I don't Hate Philadelphia, but hate the fact that the ENTIRE WING Staff is no more than 1.5 to 2 hours away from that city.
Sandman,
Bravo Zulu on making shellback. I'm sure you will proudly wear the title now that you are no longer a polywog.
Every shellback I know proudly admits the honor......polywogs have a tendancy to avert their eyes and sadly say..."I'm just a polywog." :)
:)
Quote from: JC004 on August 26, 2007, 04:37:06 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 26, 2007, 04:21:46 AM
There is a high level of trust and respect in Iowa, what can you say for YOUR wing?
I can say that our hats are more orange than yours.
Considering that they-formerly we- do not allow Orange hats in IAWG, that is an easy thing to say. They do ISSUE Orange hard Hats for ES though.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 26, 2007, 02:16:39 AM
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 09:13:23 PM
Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.
ALmost certainly not going to happen.....but I suspect (as a former cadet officer myself) that many cadets would not want to see the two separated.....one thing that distinguishes CAP cadets from Young Marines, Sea Cadets and so forth is the opportunity to train and serve in ES.
Yeah, but the Sea Cadets get to do training in naval careers. I think CAPers would mucu rather 'work' with the Air Force then go out and train to do a job they'll never get called to do.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 03:57:40 AM
Go Army, beat Navy! :P
There ya go!
Funny, I get confused at Army-Navy games! Most of my ribbons on my Navy uniform are from the Army!
Guess that's why I'm joining the
U.S. Public Health Service shortly.....promotions are quicker too!
Thanks Smokey for the "shout out"!
Hey, if anybody wants to sign up for a short cruise as a uniformed volunteer.....well, wouldn't it be cool to have the first real CAP shellback!
I can't actually claim that honor as I was onboard as a Navy member (although I do have my CAP ID card with me onboard ;))
/r
LT
Quote from: isuhawkeye on August 25, 2007, 03:07:29 AM
The Iowa National Guard has made it clear that CAP officers are to aslute officers who wear insignia senior to he officer in question.
And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia
I totally disagree withthat. I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard and I am a Capt soon to be MAJ in the CAP. So if I were in the Iowa National Guard, I am supposed to salute a CAP Captin eventhough I am a CAP captain? Plus in CAP we have members that retired as full Colonels an above but because of CAP regs they can only be Lt Col's. ao are they supposed to salute Col's even though they retired as a General Officer?
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 03:55:46 PM
I totally disagree withthat. I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard and I am a Capt soon to be MAJ in the CAP. So if I were in the Iowa National Guard, I am supposed to salute a CAP Captin eventhough I am a CAP captain? Plus in CAP we have members that retired as full Colonels an above but because of CAP regs they can only be Lt Col's. ao are they supposed to salute Col's even though they retired as a General Officer?
Yup. "Secret Federal Grade" earned by prior service officers is not part of the equation.
I knew a guy that got RIFed as a USAF captain and wound up honorably finishing his 20 as a Tsgt. The AF had the nerve to tell him that he had to salute Lts when wearing his enlisted guy uniform.
But you are certainly free to disagree with the MG Dardis' decision.
Be sure to let him know how you feel:
Office of The Adjutant General of Iowa
Joint Forces Headquarters
7105 NW 70th Avenue
Johnston, Iowa 50131-1824
Commercial (515) 252-4211
(DSN) 431-4211
My first job as a butterbar I had a staff sergeant assigned to my shop who was a Captain in the CAP. Should he be in CAP uniform on base? And if he were and we met on the company street, who should initiate the required salute? FWIW, that is the reason that I didn't join CAP back in 1961.
^ He should absolutely salute you......he knew you were a 2LT, and he knew you were his "boss". It would only make the relationship in his "real" job just a little awkward. Then again.....I have seen brand new Lt's go days with enlisted guys (usually Senior NCO's) fail to salute them. Then it takes a talk from the Battery Commander along the line of "soldiers, salute an officer, no matter what rank he or she may be. If I see it happen again, it goes on your NCOER".
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
SSgt Lively, the NCO to which I was referring, Never wore his CAP uniform in public. Unlike some of our bling hunting wannabee officers, he was somewhat embarrassed by the rank differential, which I suspect is the reason for the NCO rules in CAP today. It was many years ago in a Galaxy far away.
Quote from: Skyray on August 26, 2007, 05:20:00 PM
My first job as a butterbar I had a staff sergeant assigned to my shop who was a Captain in the CAP. Should he be in CAP uniform on base? And if he were and we met on the company street, who should initiate the required salute? FWIW, that is the reason that I didn't join CAP back in 1961.
Really, the CAP rank structure is only a CAP thing. Officers of the Armed Forced no more have an obligation to salute us as they do a Police Officer or Fireman. Thus, if he is in CAP uniform on a base, he renders salutes...when necessary...to CAP Officers.
I've seen Armed Forces folks render salutes to firemen and police officers out of respect for their service to their communities (mostly while gathering for parades and the like). These Civilian police and fire folk returned the salute out of respect. Thus, if a US Military Officer salutes a CAP Officer as a courtesy for CAP's service to the Community...would it not be a insult not to respond in kind?
I find it odd that one would stay out of CAP, a community service organization, merely because of saluting? I have several USN personnel in my unit that are actually priased by their commanders for service in CAP.
You can wear your CAP uniform on a military post. To be honest most military people at the junior officer levcel dont really know about CAP and treat it is as a civilain organization so they could care less if you salute them or not. If you did sa,ute them they probabaly would be shocked. They dont recognize the uniform so they may think you're a cop or something. iasked the Georgia Adjutant General once if he had heard of CAP. he had heard of it but has know working relationship with CAP.
So, maybe its different in differant states. I guess its not all one standard
I should very much like to write an acticle about this in a future edition of my weekly newsletter/almanac. Issues like this "sasluting" questions are things that need to be clarified to the squadron level officer.
QuoteI find it odd that one would stay out of CAP, a community service organization, merely because of saluting?
The saluting was not the issue. The issue was the blurring of status between myself as an officer and my staff sergeant as an NCO.
Well major Corrales, ithink youhit it on the head in your previous post. Saluting of CAP personel by military personnel is a curteousy done out of respect for what the CAP folks do. It is not mandated. Like I said, I have been onboth sides. Military folks ( and I speak of Army mianly) just dont know that much about CAP unless they themselves were in it. Its not somethin gwe teach at basic training or officer commissionin gprograms.
I have seen it the other way as well. I was acting in my CAP role and we had an activity at an Army installation. soldiers (young 18-20 year old privates) saw us and didnt know exactly what to do. Some laughed at the cadets calling them wannabe soldiers. I stepped in and corrected them and it was straight after that.
I think some folks in CAP take CAP way more than it should be taken. Sure I agree that CAP should be a lot more military than it is now, but I believ ethat should happen in its own community not inthe bigger DOD community. We should salute each other more. We should instil military customs and curteousies in our cadets and seniors more than we presently do. But we are subjected to UCMJ so we cant make military people salute.
I was a Specialist in the active duty army while I was a 1LT in CAP. I lived in the barracks and when I would get dressed to go to CAP, my buddies gave me the business first off cause I was wearing a semi Air Force uniform and secondly cause I had officer rank on.
Man, i cannot BELIEVE this discussion.
CAP officers salute those with higher rank.
Armed Forces personnel are not required to salute CAP officers, but if they do the salute must be returned.
This is not rocket science.
Get with the program.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 26, 2007, 05:58:30 PM
This is not rocket science.
I always wanted to be a rocket scientist just so I could say I was and I could randomly declare "this takes a rocket scientist, stand aside!"
Quote from: JC004 on August 26, 2007, 06:01:22 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 26, 2007, 05:58:30 PM
This is not rocket science.
I always wanted to be a rocket scientist just so I could say I was and I could randomly declare "this takes a rocket scientist, stand aside!"
[continuing off topic...]
I've used that line, "It's not rocket.." teaching the Titan stage model rocketry class. Then I usually add, "Wait a minute, IT IS rocket science." Got a chuckle out of the cadets and had one senior members spraying coffee. ;D
[Back to your regularly scheduled topic]
Per AFI 10-2701...
"A1.3.5. Grade Structure. CAP uses a military style grade structure for both its Senior Members and Cadet Members. CAP grades for both their cadet and senior members have no military standing, carry no authority over members of the Armed Forces, nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members. Appointment and promotion follows guidelines contained within CAP regulations."
Quote from: dougsnow on August 26, 2007, 06:13:16 PM
Per AFI 10-2701...
"A1.3.5. Grade Structure. CAP uses a military style grade structure for both its Senior Members and Cadet Members. CAP grades for both their cadet and senior members have no military standing, carry no authority over members of the Armed Forces, nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members. Appointment and promotion follows guidelines contained within CAP regulations."
That's just common sense, one would think...
Of course Kack has it right again....In uniform (AF Style) I salute any CAP or Armed Forces officer higher in rank, I return any salute given to me smartly , and never expect a salute.
If you can't hang with that....well time for you to move on.
There seems to be universal agreement that CAP officers are not required to salute military officres whose rank/grade (6 of one, half a dozen of the other in my book) insignia is less than their own.
Quote from: dougsnow on August 26, 2007, 06:13:16 PM
Per AFI 10-2701...
"A1.3.5. Grade Structure. CAP uses a military style grade structure for both its Senior Members and Cadet Members. CAP grades for both their cadet and senior members have no military standing, carry no authority over members of the Armed Forces, nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members. Appointment and promotion follows guidelines contained within CAP regulations."
True from the Air Force perspective. But now you are forgetting what CAPP 151(E) states:
Quote from: CAPP 151(E)2. Customs and Courtesies. Military customs and courtesies
are proven traditions that explain what should and should not be
done. They are acts of respect and courtesy in dealing with other
people. They have evolved as a result of the need for order, as
well as the mutual respect and sense of fraternity that exist
among military personnel. The Civil Air Patrol shares in that
tradition.
/r
LT
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 26, 2007, 05:58:30 PM
Man, i cannot BELIEVE this discussion.
CAP officers salute those with higher rank.
Armed Forces personnel are not required to salute CAP officers, but if they do the salute must be returned.
This is not rocket science.
Get with the program.
I share your pain Kach.....
Fellow CAPers. Why is this discussion continuing?
Time and time again we've shown you the guidelines (CAPP151). Why do you continue to argue what should be clear enough to you?
Quit comparing yourself with the real military. Dual enrollees such as myself: just follow the customs and courtesies of
the uniform you are wearing at the moment.....
You CAP members who continually bring up the "what if" when dealing with real military use some common sense (
which seems to be lacking in many of you >:().
The guidelines for C&C / protocol are there already. Big Blue doesn't have to salute you but choose to do so out of common courtesy. CAPers salute each other and real military who wear a grade that
outranks the one you're wearing at the moment.
Quote from: dougsnow on August 26, 2007, 06:13:16 PM
Per AFI 10-2701...
"A1.3.5. ......... nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members........
I wanted to address this once more.
This is telling real AF members that they are not required
by law to render military customs and courtesies.
The use of "...nor warrant...." is to make that point clear to unlearned real military, not to "snub" the valor of the volunteers.
Quote from: Skyray on August 26, 2007, 05:20:00 PM
My first job as a butterbar I had a staff sergeant assigned to my shop who was a Captain in the CAP. Should he be in CAP uniform on base? And if he were and we met on the company street, who should initiate the required salute? FWIW, that is the reason that I didn't join CAP back in 1961.
Okay, in a situation like this: If you're that uncomfortable with the awkwardness that this might bring and you feel you're not "mature" enough to handle it, then you were right not to join.
So, to put myself in the same situation: I am a US Navy lieutenant (O-3) and I am a US CAP major (O-4). I am drilling in a CAP unit that has an active duty Army/Navy/AF/Marine E-6 who happens to be a CAP O-5 and....let's say is the squadron commander.
As we both attend the CAP drill in CAP uniform I would render appropriate C&C to the CAP Lt Col and would have no problem initiating a salute to that Lt Col (real E-6). I would play the game within the realm of CAP knowing that in reality things are different.
I would not expect the Lt Col to initiate a salute to me while we are in costume...er....CAP uniform. That does not mean that the Lt Col (real mil E-6) wouldn't initiate on his/her own volition....in that case it would actually be more awkward for the Lt Col to salute and/or stand at attention or call me "sir" first, especially in a cadet or composite squadron ;)
Any gamers out there? When you immerse yourself in the realm of the game you want to play the appropriate part and expect others to play by the rules of the realm right?
So be it with your role in CAP.
^ It is totally different when you have an E-6 working directly for you, and he also is a CAP officer in your CAP SQD. It would be inappropriate for you to call him or her Sir, then expect that person to call you Sir the next morning. It has to deal with the whole "might have to oder you to do something that may kill you".
Military Officers are Military Officers both on duty and off duty. Your CAP volunteer membership may be in your off duty time, but the whole profession of arms attitude thing has to be kept going. It would also be inadvisable to socialize after the CAP meeting with that enlisted individual.
When word gets out that you salute, socialize with and call one of you subordinates Sir, you loose the superior-subordinate thing.
In fact, the Army Officer's Guide 48th edition says that officer-enlisted relationship that is expected during work/ duty hours MUST be enforced off duty as well. It would be very inappropriate to put yourself in a position subordinate to one of your subordinates. IF you are in the same CAP SQD, at the very least you should excuse youself from any position in which you work directly with or for that individual.
Quote from: sandman on August 26, 2007, 08:03:52 PM
You CAP members who continually bring up the "what if" when dealing with real military use some common sense (which seems to be lacking in many of you >:().
:clap: Finally a person who can decide which of us have common sense and which of us are lacking. How much will it cost for you to let me know?
Why is the applause not showing up?? Is it my computer?
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 09:16:21 PM
Why is the applause not showing up?? Is it my computer?
it has been broken for a while
Some of you seem to live very complicated lives.
My first job as a butterbar I had a staff sergeant assigned to my shop who was a Captain in the CAP. Should he be in CAP uniform on base? And if he were and we met on the company street, who should initiate the required salute? FWIW, that is the reason that I didn't join CAP back in 1961.
Theres nothing to say you even have to salute him. If I was a military officer, and also a CAP officer, I wouldnt be saluting "senior" CAP officers while I was in a military uniform unless that person outranked me in real life also. Being a CAP member also, if the Wing Comm walked by in uniform and you knew who he was a salute may be smart.
When I was an enlisted Marine I ran across several CAP officers while in my Marine uniform.....I would usually salute because I knew the deal. But CAP officers don't rate salutes by military personell. Sure some do and theres nothing wrong with it if they choose to. If the SSgt didnt understand that, then I would say the enlisted guy was the one who needed to grow up. Your professional military relationships trump anything CAP. You would need to be cautious of fraternizing and the enlisted member should be aware of the ramifications of that scenario.
Well......after much thought, I say lets just get AF to say " As the Auxiliary of the Air Force, AF members MUST salute those CAP Officers whom outrank them". This would be a way to make the CAP more a part of the AF team right?
So, to bring CAP Officers more in line with AF Officers......lets get the Professional Development more in line with the AF. Make the Officers basic course that the AF offers into a distance ed program for new CAP Officers. Then make SOS mandatory for promotion. Get the other schools tailored to CAP by the AF. Lets truly get the CAP Officer to a level that mirrors that of the AF.
I am aware that this is a debate for another thread, but.......sorry!
I have thought about what I have written above, and now say after PM'ing with a few others that the saluting issue is a dead debate as it now stands. Follow the rules we have, and decide on a personal basis, should I salute or should I be a "terd" and not return the salute from another individual.
In summary, salute those CAP members who outrank you while in CAP uniform. Return the salute of military members who salute you while you are in CAP uniform.
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 03:16:31 PM
First off, just because someone holds a comission doesn't mean that they outrank CAP members. While I am conflicted about CAP being a military organization, as long as we wear the uniform, and wear the insignia, we should act like it.
So, SM 1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.
By the way, why does CAPP151 say that we're suppose to salute MoH winners? I haven't been able to find anything to that effect in federal law or military protocol books.
There is nothing really written about saluting a MoH winner but it is a tradition. Effectively, you are not saluting the person, but rather the medal itself. There is no law or protocol and you won't get in trouble for not saluting but I think it would be considered disrespectful.
Why does everyone get all worked up about saluting???
When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.
I never saluted him once - and I mean never.
A salute is rendered. You can't make anyone salute anyone else.
Its their choice to offer the salute.
I render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine. When I render a salute I expect one in return (its a two way thing really... its not about power) and if I don't get one I will follow you down the street until you do, quite loudly in fact.
I don't expect anyone to give me a salute but when they do I sharply return that salute - because its a warrior's handshake.
And I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).
IMHAO
Quote from: DHollywood on August 26, 2007, 11:53:29 PMI render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine.
But,...
Quote from: DHollywood on August 26, 2007, 11:53:29 PM
When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.
I never saluted him once - and I mean never.
Quote from: DHollywood on August 26, 2007, 11:53:29 PMAnd I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).
Sounds a bit hypocritical. It is not buffet. You can't pick and choose the pieces you like. It's not about
your feelings towards
him, it about a greater respect for the Profession of Arms. If you truly had respect for your fellow service members, you'd salute him regardless of your personal feelings. That's part of being a professional.
Quote from: shorning on August 27, 2007, 12:06:50 AM
Quote from: DHollywood on August 26, 2007, 11:53:29 PMI render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine.
But,...
Quote from: DHollywood on August 26, 2007, 11:53:29 PM
When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.
I never saluted him once - and I mean never.
Quote from: DHollywood on August 26, 2007, 11:53:29 PMAnd I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).
Sounds a bit hypocritical. It is not buffet. You can't pick and choose the pieces you like. It's not about your feelings towards him, it about a greater respect for the Profession of Arms. If you truly had respect for your fellow service members, you'd salute him regardless of your personal feelings. That's part of being a professional.
Your allegation that I am hypocritical and unprofessional assumes many facts not present in evidence, sir.
And you missed the point of emphasis. You can never force anyone to do anything. They either make the choice to do it, or they submit under force or duress.
And as for my not saluting this guy back then- its a paratrooper thing and it was my choice. And its in the past.
If you refer to the present tense indicated in my post you will see that I presently render the salute to officers as appropriate. Prior bad acts are generally not admissible, but I opened the door to make a point.
The pig that flies said:
QuoteTheres nothing to say you even have to salute him.
I think you guys are missing the point. According to the rules we both played under at the time,
he had to salute me.To have joined an outfit with
faux rank, particularly when my direct subordinate outranked me in that
faux rank, would not have been prudent, and might even have been seen by my commanding general as fraternizing.
Quote from: DHollywood on August 26, 2007, 11:53:29 PM
Why does everyone get all worked up about saluting???
When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.
I never saluted him once - and I mean never.
A salute is rendered. You can't make anyone salute anyone else.
Its their choice to offer the salute.
I render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine. When I render a salute I expect one in return (its a two way thing really... its not about power) and if I don't get one I will follow you down the street until you do, quite loudly in fact.
I don't expect anyone to give me a salute but when they do I sharply return that salute - because its a warrior's handshake.
And I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).
IMHAO
Doug,
I am hoping that your comments are anecdotal about your past and do not reflect your current practice of customs and courtesies especially in your current post as an IG.
Selective saluting is a symptomatic character defect that runs deep into overall disrespect for authority. Any person harboring such a character flaw without willingness to change it should not be placed in a position of trust or authority especially with cadets. The good news is that this flaw can easily be unlearned and if the person is willing to change sould be allowed to continue in a position of trust.
Saluting for real military members in the real military is not an optional practice and can be punished under articles in the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
As an aside, military prisoners are not allowed the honor of rendering a salute.....
/r
LT
Way back when after I succumbed to the dark side after enlisting active duty in the Air Force, one of my fellow services squadron members was commander of the CAP overseas squadron at Spangdahlem. SSgt by day, CAP Major during meeting nights. I was a lowly A1C by day, more well known for running the burger and short order grill line at the infamous 'Mosel Disposal' chow hall. On meeting nights, I wore TFO (later 1st Lt) bars and walked the mile or so down the hill from the barracks to the CAP meeting location. (Ya gotta remember, this was in the days of hard rank and blue epaulets for CAP.) Once in a while I'd get saluted - and I would salute back; other times I'd get a quizzical look, especially if they recognized me as the chow hall burger flipper who just served him his or her lunch. If they went through the chow hall line and asked, I'd tell 'em what the whole business was about. Any doubt they had about someone impersonating an officer was dispelled.
The services squadron commander and first sergeant were well aware of my 'dual' status and I never went out of my way to jack up a fellow airman, an NCO - or even a junior officer - because he or she didn't pop off a smart salute to me in my CAP uniform. It would have not been healthy for my well-being in the RealMilitary®.
Anecdotal yes. I should have used the BBC tags [anecdote][/anecdote].
And as I have said now three times, I render the salute to officers who hold grade higher than mine. And I collect a salute in return. And I return all salutes sharply.
As for me not saluting someone more than 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has since passed. And I chose push-up over saluting a leg butterbar (non-paratrooper) which was pretty much the C&C at the time at FT Bragg. But thats another story for another forum.
As paratroopers, we had many character flaws in garrison - my salute anecdote being one of them. But, as in most forum conversations, I see the intelect of my anecdote is lost to the occasion. Fair enough.
I'll cast my pearls more wisely next time.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 09:08:09 PM
^ It is totally different when you have an E-6 working directly for you, and he also is a CAP officer in your CAP SQD. It would be inappropriate for you to call him or her Sir, then expect that person to call you Sir the next morning. It has to deal with the whole "might have to oder you to do something that may kill you".
I will concede to a point. However, I maintain that it would not be inappropriate to follow the scenario I outlined in my previous post. My concession is that in your scenario, with the non-com "outranking" (in CAP) the commissioned officer and they were in the same real mil combat unit and were in the same chain of command, then yes; one or the other should extricate him or herself from that particular situation and move on to another CAP unit.
Do you have any examples of conflict when the same set of members volunteered in....let's say the Boy Scouts or some other non-military styled volunteer group? I would be interested in knowing how often such a situation would happen.....might make a good journal article for Armed Forces Quarterly, MOAA, or some other such publication.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 09:08:09 PM
Military Officers are Military Officers both on duty and off duty. Your CAP volunteer membership may be in your off duty time, but the whole profession of arms attitude thing has to be kept going. It would also be inadvisable to socialize after the CAP meeting with that enlisted individual.
When word gets out that you salute, socialize with and call one of you subordinates Sir, you loose the superior-subordinate thing.
In fact, the Army Officer's Guide 48th edition says that officer-enlisted relationship that is expected during work/ duty hours MUST be enforced off duty as well. It would be very inappropriate to put yourself in a position subordinate to one of your subordinates. IF you are in the same CAP SQD, at the very least you should excuse youself from any position in which you work directly with or for that individual.
Right. As I've said, I concede to a point. So now what has been learned from this discussion? Perhaps we can glean from this that, except for one specific situation, you should follow C&C and render a proper salute to those officers who outrank you while weaing the uniform you are in at the moment....
;D :-*
Quote from: DHollywood on August 27, 2007, 12:49:03 AM
Anecdotal yes. I should have used the BBC tags [anecdote][/anecdote].
And as I have said now three times, I render the salute to officers who hold grade higher than mine. And I collect a salute in return. And I return all salutes sharply.
As for me not saluting someone more than 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has since passed. And I chose push-up over saluting a leg butterbar (non-paratrooper) which was pretty much the C&C at the time at FT Bragg. But thats another story for another forum.
As paratroopers, we had many character flaws in garrison - my salute anecdote being one of them. But, as in most forum conversations, I see the intelect of my anecdote is lost to the occasion. Fair enough.
I'll cast my pearls more wisely next time.
Thanks Doug! I reread your post once or twice before I posted (and depressurized the flamethrower ;D).
I understand the Airborne culture to a point and taking push-ups vice returning a salute was appropriate for that time. My point in stating UCMJ action as an optional punishment was not to inculpate you for your anectdotes but to broadly mention that it is the usual way to address that sort of disrespect today.
Saluting is a time honored tradition. I mentioned that military prisoners (not POW's) are not allowed to salute so that someone who refuses to salute in a way places themself on the same level as a dishonorable military (soon to be former military) member.
Thanks again for the clarification and for your continued service to your country!
/r
LT
OK....So we had a few rare examples of issues that could possibly come up with those of dual status. Just how many of those are there?????
Maybe you need to settle this with former Natl CC, Gen Andersen who is a full bird Colonel in the regular AF.
OTHER THAN THAT....
What the heck is the big deal.............just render the darn salute to those above you and return any salutes rendered to you.......
It's really simple.....sheesh
Wow...
You guys sure know how to beat the hell out of a dead horse!
Simple concept: You don't want to play military and salute; wear the appropriate uniform.
You want to wear the USAF style uniform; fulfill your responsibility to salute all superior officers appointed over you. OBTW: If you get a professional enlisted person who chooses to salute the CAP company or field grade officer (they are not obligated to do so) have the professional courtesy to return the proper salute.
What's really sad is most Wings do not teach the proper way to salute; consequently, we have some really weird looking hand gestures that do nothing more than embarrass the CAP corps! Additionally, we have many CAP officers throughout this nation wearing the military style uniform who do not salute those of higher rank. Thanks to this type of unprofessional behavior, these same folks become a negative role model for our cadets!
Bottomline; If you have a hang-up about saluting get out of the USAF style uniform! Simple as that.
Cheers,
Rube11
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 26, 2007, 05:58:30 PM
Armed Forces personnel are not required to salute CAP officers, but if they do the salute must be returned.
They are in Iowa if you are in the A/NG. that is the only place this is in effect. The TAG has been so impressed by the IAWG CAP, that he feels that all members under his command WILL render the salute as if they are Military Personnel. Note, it does not say that they are, but they will be treated as if they are. I'm note sure about the Cadets though. Isuhawkeye, cyclone or LTC Critelli?
[Flamethower on...]
First off, a PROFESSIONAL enlisted personal would salute any officer and set a good example; it's called customs and courtesies. I have seen a US Army Command Sargeant Major salute a CAP LT. It was the right thing to do. And people wonder why the so-called "real military" does not respect CAP members. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that some of us either don't get it or have ego's so big that they can make up their own rules as they go. I've saluted so many uniforms over the years, I can't even begin to count them.
We are talking about a very long standing military custom, we are talking about courtesies, first day basic training stuff. We are a paramilitary organization and have been since day 1, if you can't live with that or the organizations rules, you should reconsider how you spend your free time.
In terms of real vs. the intimated "fake military", get a clue, civilians outrank service members. Again, basic training 101. You are commsioned into a "leadership" position in CAP. CAP 101 stuff.
This is not only embarassing, but disgraceful.
[outta fuel...Flamethrower off...]
Quote from: JThemann on August 26, 2007, 04:53:54 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 26, 2007, 02:16:39 AM
Quote from: JThemann on August 25, 2007, 09:13:23 PM
Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.
ALmost certainly not going to happen.....but I suspect (as a former cadet officer myself) that many cadets would not want to see the two separated.....one thing that distinguishes CAP cadets from Young Marines, Sea Cadets and so forth is the opportunity to train and serve in ES.
Yeah, but the Sea Cadets get to do training in naval careers. I think CAPers would mucu rather 'work' with the Air Force then go out and train to do a job they'll never get called to do.
You know what, let's ask them!
Any cadets reading this thread??
Would you give up ES for the opportunity to work as trainees (I guess that's the term) in USAF career fields as cadets?
(Board Moderators: please note I am resisting the temptation to start a poll!)
Tags - MIKE
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.
Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 26, 2007, 09:08:09 PM
^ It is totally different when you have an E-6 working directly for you, and he also is a CAP officer in your CAP SQD. It would be inappropriate for you to call him or her Sir, then expect that person to call you Sir the next morning. It has to deal with the whole "might have to oder you to do something that may kill you".
And that would be setting a terrific example for the cadets, wouldn't it??
Or would you expect some 13 year old C/AB to fathom the niceties of this situation??
To paraphrase Sandman's earlier comment, "When in Rome...."
If doing so in CAP interferes somehow with one's commitments or responsibilities as a member of the military, then perhaps that person ought to take Patron status in CAP until separation or retirement from the service
This is an interesting topic!
I can remember as a cadet officer being saluted by military nco's and being called sir, it was kind of weird but I returned the salute . I remember one time at AFSCFC at Patrick AFB I was a cadet 2Lt at the time and a command Sgt Maj from the army guard saluted me outside the riverside dinning hall, I explained to him I was a cap cadet and what we were and he insisted that his troops would salute us . The Guy (who was twice my size and could proably kick my butt) kept calling me sir and showed the up most respect . many times at MacDill AFB in CAP bdus Ncos and Officers saluting me and they knew what CAP was.
We are all on the same team, Guard, Reserve, Active Duty,CG Auxiliary, NSCC, ACA, private military schools, state defense forces, and ROTC.
Different organizations, different uniforms but all serving America
The truth of the matter here is reflected in something "Sparky" mentioned in a recent PM: That there is a general self-loathing within the CAP officer corps in regards to wearing the USAF style uniform, using rank devices and titles, and performing customs and courtesies.
I am begining to perceive that this is true.
It is my opinion that in order to be taken seriously by those in the real military CAP members need to take thier volunteerism seriously. As pointed out, there are many members of the real military who offer you "an olive branch"; a salute.....a simple task....a simple gesture......but filled with such rich history and respect; not offered lightly but with respect for you as a fellow American, a "brother" in service, and as a mutual volunteer (although you don't get paid for your service). Please don't hesitate to return or initiate such a magnanimous gesture!
You....all of you CAP volunteers.....you should be proud of yourself for your altruistist endeavors.....I, and many others, are trying to make you aware of what you truely are.....a great American, in the tradition of the Minutemen and America's first militia, you are one of the greatest American resources and one that is critically needed.
Stop the self-loathing. Quit comparing yourself to the real military and chanting "we are not worthy...we are not worthy".
Best place to start? Simply whip out that salute smartly!
And if your D&C is not up to par...find a mentor. Go to your local VFW or American Legion if necessary....there are plenty of crusty old salts who are more than willing to set you straight ;)
I consider saluting a privilege: one of which I was deprived in the years between the end of my service and my entry into CAP, and one that I welcomed back when I joined CAP. There are others who think the same way I do, witness the recent legislation extending the privilege of saluting the flag to veterans in civilian clothing. I still feel a little uncomfortable saluting uncovered and in civilian clothing, but George Bush does it all the time, and it doesn't seem to bother him. It was protocol back in my day to return salutes rendered to you by people who recognized you in civilian clothes, and that is why I got in the habit of only carrying one briefcase in my left hand. To this day I am a little uncomfortable in a military setting with both hands full.
Got that right. Never carry anything in your gun hand.
Good Morning Sandman,
Thank you for your very elegant comment. I never thought about it like that before. Being a retired AF Res NCO, I always felt conspicuous wearing officer's grade while on a military base. Kind of like the "real dudes" thought I was playing officer and they resented it.
Keep up the good work in the Navy I envy you. As for our other subject; keep the faith I believe things will get better. ;D
Excellent post, Sandman. I think thise discussion should go no further.
Ya know, this whole thing could be made simpler by a simple word change in the pamphlet.
It says to salute those "senior in rank."
Which cause the confusion, because rank does not apply between CAP and USAF members. We don't "outrank" them, and they don't "outrank" us. NO authority of seniority either way. Apples and oranges.
Perhaps if said something like salute those "wearing higher grade insignia than the CAP member"."
A bit wordy, but it gets us out of the "rank" thing and into the truth of the matter - the grade insignia.
Seems like a number of people want to be able to salute "cafeteria style". Pick and choose who you want to salute, and ignore the rest. It's a serious lack of integrity.
In the military, people salute those officers that outrank them. It's pretty simple, if you're an E-6, you will salute all officers, warranted and commisioned. If you're a warrant, you salute all other warrants that outrank you, and all commissioned officers. If you're commissioned, you salute all commissioned that outrank you. Pretty simple.
And as far rank, yes we do have rank. Lieutenant is a rank. Captain is a rank. Lieutenant Colonel is a rank. In the military, grade is pay grade, it determines your salary. Yes, I know, there are things that ask for grade in CAP, but it's simpler to equate them than to confuse the issues by epxlaining it. But CAP members don't have a paychart, so grade doesn't apply.
Although we do have ranks, we do not hold military commissions, and as such, we are not entitled to the benefits, priviledges, responsbilities that military officers have. The AFI indicates this.
However, if you choose not to salute someone, keep in mind how that reflects on everyone that wears the same uniform you do. If it reflects negatively, then your conduct is unprofessional.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2007, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.
Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!
CAP officers are NEVER appointed over military officers. That's according to CAP regulations. Military officers are in turn never appointed over CAP officers. Thus, one does not outrank the other.
Salutes are handed out as a matter of military courtesy since we do wear the military uniform. They are delived to those officers who hold a higher (pay)grade. So... if you're an O-2 equivalent in any service, be that a 1st Lt, LtJg or CAP 1st Lt, you salute everyone who is an O-3 or higher equivalent. If you are enlisted military or CAP you salute all officer equivalents.
The military does not have to salute us. If a military unit's commander decides that they do, it's his/her prerogative. It's their choice. Saluting CAP officers is optional.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2007, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.
Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!
OK, I'll walk us through this.
The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces). He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."
This is not unusual. In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch). However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.
So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 27, 2007, 05:15:11 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2007, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.
Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!
OK, I'll walk us through this.
The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces). He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."
This is not unusual. In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch). However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.
So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.
The CAP cannot be made to be a state militia of any kind by anyone. We are a federal agency that may be contracted to do work for a state, but we can NEVER be a state militia. If for no other reason than the fact that militias are military organizations and we are not (no matter how military-like we may be). CAP is not a federal nor a state military and won't be. Why? Because those already exist.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 27, 2007, 06:02:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 27, 2007, 05:15:11 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2007, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.
Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!
OK, I'll walk us through this.
The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces). He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."
This is not unusual. In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch). However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.
So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.
The CAP cannot be made to be a state militia of any kind by anyone. We are a federal agency that may be contracted to do work for a state, but we can NEVER be a state militia. If for no other reason than the fact that militias are military organizations and we are not (no matter how military-like we may be). CAP is not a federal nor a state military and won't be. Why? Because those already exist.
No, we are a congressionally chartered, not for profit corporation whose members may sometimes be designated as the USAF Auxiliary.
Other times? I don't know. The IA State House did something law-like concerning IAWG, but I don't know the details. Hopefully, someone in the know will drop by and explain the matter.
Does the AF care? Possibly, though they may not make a stink as long as we "dance with the one that brought us."
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 27, 2007, 06:19:33 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 27, 2007, 06:02:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 27, 2007, 05:15:11 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2007, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.
Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!
OK, I'll walk us through this.
The IA AG is head of the IA militia, (the NG and state forces). He is well within his power, esp. if the State House made IAWG the "state air militia," to say, "CAP officers are state officers and are treated as such by the rest of the IA militia."
This is not unusual. In MD, I salute MDDF officers as a militia sgt (in reality, that's all the time - it's not like I have a "FED ON/STATE ON" patch). However, the IA AG can't order the AD types or other state militias to salute CAP, because that's outside his authority.
So he's doing nothing wrong, but you need to understand the limits of his authority.
The CAP cannot be made to be a state militia of any kind by anyone. We are a federal agency that may be contracted to do work for a state, but we can NEVER be a state militia. If for no other reason than the fact that militias are military organizations and we are not (no matter how military-like we may be). CAP is not a federal nor a state military and won't be. Why? Because those already exist.
No, we are a congressionally chartered, not for profit corporation whose members may sometimes be designated as the USAF Auxiliary.
Other times? I don't know. The IA State House did something law-like concerning IAWG, but I don't know the details. Hopefully, someone in the know will drop by and explain the matter.
Does the AF care? Possibly, though they may not make a stink as long as we "dance with the one that brought us."
In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 27, 2007, 06:31:43 PM
In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).
Militias are military? The deuce you say! :o
All kidding aside - for the purpose of this exercise it doesn't really matter what I think CAP is or what you think CAP is, but what the IA gov't and the IA AG thinks CAP is for them. What the AF thinks CAP is might also figure into the equation, if the AF decides it's important.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 27, 2007, 06:50:40 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 27, 2007, 06:31:43 PM
In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).
Militias are military? The deuce you say! :o
All kidding aside - for the purpose of this exercise it doesn't really matter what I think CAP is or what you think CAP is, but what the IA gov't and the IA AG thinks CAP is for them. What the AF thinks CAP is might also figure into the equation, if the AF decides it's important.
NO NO NO NO NO lol It only matters what the US Congress thinks CAP is. Because they chartered us. If Iowa wants its own CAP, they can create one. As the folks in Brooklyn say, "We ain't it". You must think that State Governments matter when it comes to federal agencies. They don't. As I said before, CAP can do work for state agencies when we have MOUs with them, but those MOUs have to be approved by NHQ to meet all standards set forth by the Congressional Charter and all applicable laws set forth by US Congress, not the State of Iowa or any other. One major confusion... We do not work for states. We may, on occasion work with states.
In regards to the topic,
Capp 151 says:
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.
Senior in rank. Period. A 2LT is NEVER senior in rank to a Col, NEVER. N-E-V-E-R, NEVER. Likewise, a COL doesn't ALWAYS have authority over a 2Lt, though he does "Out-Rank" him. It's a salute. WTF is the problem rendering a salute? Who cares? Protocol says you salute them if they are senior in rank. They will surely return your salute. If they don't salute you, screw 'em. I've seen an AD E-6 REFUSE to salute a CAP officer, even in front of his cadets. Nothing you can do. Sure, it's low class but whatever. It all boils down to the Golden Rule.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 27, 2007, 07:15:41 PM
In regards to the topic,
Capp 151 says:
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.
Senior in rank. Period. A 2LT is NEVER senior in rank to a Col, NEVER. N-E-V-E-R, NEVER. Likewise, a COL doesn't ALWAYS have authority over a 2Lt, though he does "Out-Rank" him. It's a salute. WTF is the problem rendering a salute? Who cares? Protocol says you salute them if they are senior in rank. They will surely return your salute. If they don't salute you, screw 'em. I've seen an AD E-6 REFUSE to salute a CAP officer, even in front of his cadets. Nothing you can do. Sure, it's low class but whatever. It all boils down to the Golden Rule.
That is pretty low and I bet his CC wouldn't agree with such an action. Even enemy combatants salute each other at formal functions as a sign of respect of profession.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 27, 2007, 06:54:51 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 27, 2007, 06:50:40 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 27, 2007, 06:31:43 PM
In other times we are exactly what you said we are, a non-profit corporation acting as an organization of volunteers to carry out the missions set forth by the US Congress in their charter. Missions may include work for State and local organizations and governments as per Memorandums of Understanding, but... at no point do we stop being a US Congress chartered federal non-profit organization and at no point do we become a State Military organization (militias are military).
Militias are military? The deuce you say! :o
All kidding aside - for the purpose of this exercise it doesn't really matter what I think CAP is or what you think CAP is, but what the IA gov't and the IA AG thinks CAP is for them. What the AF thinks CAP is might also figure into the equation, if the AF decides it's important.
NO NO NO NO NO lol It only matters what the US Congress thinks CAP is. Because they chartered us. If Iowa wants its own CAP, they can create one. As the folks in Brooklyn say, "We ain't it". You must think that State Governments matter when it comes to federal agencies. They don't. As I said before, CAP can do work for state agencies when we have MOUs with them, but those MOUs have to be approved by NHQ to meet all standards set forth by the Congressional Charter and all applicable laws set forth by US Congress, not the State of Iowa or any other. One major confusion... We do not work for states. We may, on occasion work with states.
I am talking from the POV of an IG that has decided that CAP officers merit salutes from the state military that he runs. I have outlined how such an order might come about and how it might be considered a legitimate order.
If we take he standpoint that CAP is a congressionally chartered corporation first, last, and only, then ordering his members to salute CAP officers is an illegal order. Only our use of US military insignia to represent our progression in the organization confuses the issue. The American Red Cross is also a congressionally chartered corporation who sometimes wear uniforms (and deploy downrange), but we wouldn't expect the military to salute them.
Yes, but CAP is more then just a federally chartered corporation. it is the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary. Whether people like it or not we are a military organization. comparing us to the Red Cross is not a fair comparison. we have been military in nature since we where formed. this whole mindset of we are just a corporation is a relatively new idea.
I think the issue of saluting our officers would be a different mindset if CAP didn't make every single person who joined an instant Officer in 6months. We should have high standards for those wishing to serve as an officer. There is nothing wrong with serving in CAP as a member who isn't an officer....but thats another topic.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 27, 2007, 04:09:46 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 27, 2007, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 26, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I am sure that no where in the UCMJ does it say that I have to salute Civil Air Patrol officers. I do it out of curteousy but no where is it mandated.
True, but somewhere it says something (I believe in your commissioning oath) about obeying the orders of those officers appointed over you.
Listen, if you do share your feelings with the Iowa Adjutant General about this, would you post a copy of the conversation/correspondence here? This should be educational!
CAP officers are NEVER appointed over military officers. That's according to CAP regulations. Military officers are in turn never appointed over CAP officers. Thus, one does not outrank the other.
Salutes are handed out as a matter of military courtesy since we do wear the military uniform. They are delived to those officers who hold a higher (pay)grade. So... if you're an O-2 equivalent in any service, be that a 1st Lt, LtJg or CAP 1st Lt, you salute everyone who is an O-3 or higher equivalent. If you are enlisted military or CAP you salute all officer equivalents.
The military does not have to salute us. If a military unit's commander decides that they do, it's his/her prerogative. It's their choice. Saluting CAP officers is optional.
Clarification: the "officer appointed over" a commissioned officer to whom I was referring was The Adjutant General of the State of Iowa, whom I believe is a Maj. Gen. of the National Guard....my point was in response to the outrage at the order he issued to his people to salute CAP officers senior in grade.
I never intended to infer that CAP officers were ever placed over Real Military!
::sigh::
^^agreed^^
I think in many ways it boils down to...
Some CAP members dislike that idea that we are even remotely associated with the military. Those are the ones who, even though eligible, will not wear the AF style uniforms (blues or BDU) and wear the golf shirt uniform when forced into a uniform. They do not like the idea of having to salute someone whose status (military) they would rather not acknowledge. They would prefer that we break away from being the AF Aux.
Those proud of our heritage and background that associates us with the military (first the Army [AAF] then the Air Force) have no problem understanding the meaning of the salute. They also don't quibble about commissions, rank vs. grade, dual status, and the other nonsense that has appeared in this thread.
GEEZ....GET OVER IT. YOU DON'T LIKE TO SALUTE , DISLIKE THE MILITARY, HAVE ISSUES ABOUT OUR STATUS.......THEN DON'T WEAR THE AF STYLE UNIFORM AND IT WON'T BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU
For those proud of the association with the AF, it isn't even an issue.
Quote from: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 09:03:44 PM
I think in many ways it boils down to...
Some CAP members dislike that idea that we are even remotely associated with the military. Those are the ones who, even though eligible, will not wear the AF style uniforms (blues or BDU) and wear the golf shirt uniform when forced into a uniform. They do not like the idea of having to salute someone whose status (military) they would rather not acknowledge. They would prefer that we break away from being the AF Aux.
Those proud of our heritage and background that associates us with the military (first the Army [AAF] then the Air Force) have no problem understanding the meaning of the salute. They also don't quibble about commissions, rank vs. grade, dual status, and the other nonsense that has appeared in this thread.
GEEZ....GET OVER IT. YOU DON'T LIKE TO SALUTE , DISLIKE THE MILITARY, HAVE ISSUES ABOUT OUR STATUS.......THEN DON'T WEAR THE AF STYLE UNIFORM AND IT WON'T BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU
For those proud of the association with the AF, it isn't even an issue.
And if that's the case one would also have to wonder why they're even part of this organization. There are many other volunteer organizations out there.
Quote from: A.Member on August 27, 2007, 09:12:51 PM
Quote from: Smokey on August 27, 2007, 09:03:44 PM
I think in many ways it boils down to...
Some CAP members dislike that idea that we are even remotely associated with the military. Those are the ones who, even though eligible, will not wear the AF style uniforms (blues or BDU) and wear the golf shirt uniform when forced into a uniform. They do not like the idea of having to salute someone whose status (military) they would rather not acknowledge. They would prefer that we break away from being the AF Aux.
Those proud of our heritage and background that associates us with the military (first the Army [AAF] then the Air Force) have no problem understanding the meaning of the salute. They also don't quibble about commissions, rank vs. grade, dual status, and the other nonsense that has appeared in this thread.
GEEZ....GET OVER IT. YOU DON'T LIKE TO SALUTE , DISLIKE THE MILITARY, HAVE ISSUES ABOUT OUR STATUS.......THEN DON'T WEAR THE AF STYLE UNIFORM AND IT WON'T BE AN ISSUE FOR YOU
For those proud of the association with the AF, it isn't even an issue.
And if that's the case one would also have to wonder why they're even part of this organization. There are many other volunteer organizations out there.
Not that I'm a break away, anti military type but I'll attempt an answer why be a part pf CAP.
Altruistic:
1) A strong interest in being involved in their community.
2) A love of aviation.
3) A desire to use their talent for flying for the community.
4) An interest and talent for SAR (why CAP rather than angel flight)
5) An interest in kids programs.
6) A desire to be in an adult program for growth and achievement.
Personal:
1) Resume padding
2) cheap flying
3) Networking
4) his/her kids are in it.
In other words, some of the same reasons the rest of us are. That being said, use the golf shirt and blazer if you want out of uniforms. There's nothing wrong with them. I've seen wing staff in them. Come And Participate, that's what truly makes us a great organization.
Quote from: DrJbdm on August 27, 2007, 08:23:07 PM
it is the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.
No it is NOT. That law was changed. It is the AF AUX when on an AF mission.
^^ Be that as you may, but you can't pick and chose the parts as you wish. If you don't like a certain part of it; that's tough. You wear the Golf Shirt and don't let the mil aspect of it bother you.
I won't debate whether we should be Aux or not. Although we ARE. We are written into the US Code, as well as some of the AF and Army's regs. We use their insignia, and the TAG in Iowa has decided that all members will show C&C to CAP Personnel.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 27, 2007, 07:28:01 PM
If we take he standpoint that CAP is a congressionally chartered corporation first, last, and only, then ordering his members to salute CAP officers is an illegal order.
How would it be illegal? It could only be illegal if there was a law against it. There isn't. You may not like the order, but it's not your call.
^ Apparently they are doing their "own thing" in Iowa these days. More power to them. Oh ya.....I worked with Iowa Guard members RETRAINING them to Army standards at Fort Sill about three years ago. Let me say, they are doing their own thing. The wrong thing.
CAP members are not granted State or Federal Commissions. How can a NG CPT be forced to salute a CAP Major that may have just joined the program no more than 6 months prior. Mind Blowing. BUT I DO NOT CARE ANY LONGER!
Go Iowa!
Yeah I think this thread is about done... Lock.