CAP Talk

I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

Military. However, if said CAP Col is also RM officer, that could be interesting.  However, even if RM, if in CAP uniform, not required.  Also, those have been floating around the internet for a while.  Don't pay attention to those.

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him.

Why?   ???

Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Real mil was right to a degree however if he/she did engage in a cussing match as defined them both of them fell into the wrong.  Much to learn this one has.

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today

Define, because your answer is likely contained in your source.

The answer is "they were both wrong".

By regulation, CAP members are required to salute members of the military who are superior in grade. Members of the military are allowed, but not required to salute members of CAP in the same circumstance.

The CAP member was 100% wrong in both his understanding of the reg and his challenging someone in public. The member of the military was wrong in making a public spectacle of a situation which is supposed to be intended as a courtesy and recognition between like minded people and comradeship.
They both should have made mental notes of the reaction and moved on.

Both people in this case has some "point to make" that was ultimately self-defeating.

Here is the original post.

QuoteThis just happened to me today. Usually I'm fine with these CAP officers and I do salute them sometimes out of respect but I didn't really notice her as I walked by. She stops me and says "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me". She had a real pissy attitude when she said this to me. I told her politely that she is till a civilian and I don't have to salute her. She responded back "I am still with the Air Force which means you salute me." I pointed to my stripes and told her that this is a real rank and then pointed to her oak leaf and told her that it doesn't mean s*** and she is still a civilian. She started to cuss me out and then I just walked away. This woman was a real b****. Maybe she was just having a bad day or maybe she thinks she really does outrank me. I don't know. Has this ever happened to you?

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:43:57 PM
Here is the original post.

QuoteThis just happened to me today. Usually I'm fine with these CAP officers and I do salute them sometimes out of respect but I didn't really notice her as I walked by. She stops me and says "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me". She had a real pissy attitude when she said this to me. I told her politely that she is till a civilian and I don't have to salute her. She responded back "I am still with the Air Force which means you salute me." I pointed to my stripes and told her that this is a real rank and then pointed to her oak leaf and told her that it doesn't mean s*** and she is still a civilian. She started to cuss me out and then I just walked away. This woman was a real b****. Maybe she was just having a bad day or maybe she thinks she really does outrank me. I don't know. Has this ever happened to you?

That's an ooolde thread on Military Times, and most of the responses there, by others in the military, were spot on.

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Many CAP members are former (and current) military members who have served overseas in time of war and peace.  Quite a few of them have sustained injuries and/or disabilities in the service of their country.  Does the military members' current service outweigh their prior service in some manner that would make them obligated to salute?

CAPP 151 explains proper saluting protocol.

c. Respect for Retirees. Military retirees are treated with
the same respect and courtesies as active duty members. By
public law, they have earned and are entitled to enjoy certain
U.S. Government benefits, rights, and privileges. One of these
rights is that military members in a retired status are entitled to
be addressed, both in written and verbal communications, by
their retired rank.

Yes I do agree that veterans deserve the same respect as current military men and women. However, he had no way of knowing if the Colonel was once in the military.

I know our Wing Commander has made it clear if he hears of any such silliness (demanding a salute from military) in his wing, the only thing they will see is a 2b.

I myself would never demand or request a salute from a person in uniform. If i do, (hopefully i will) make it to the Air Force I would salute a Civil Air Patrol member if ever had the opportunity.

Here is a war story of mine.  I was in the 161st ESC, 27th EN BN, Ft. Bragg.  I was a PFC and a CAP 1st Lt.  My Platoon Leader (2LT)  knew I was in CAP, and that she was not required to salute.  Whenever I was in my CAP uniform, she saluted me, when normally I saluted her (when I was in ACU's)  Nobody had a cow.

Quote from: JeffDG on July 17, 2012, 09:05:47 PM
I know our Wing Commander has made it clear if he hears of any such silliness (demanding a salute from military) in his wing, the only thing they will see is a 2b.

And it should be swift. 

Meh...most of the military people I've encountered while in uniform render C&C out of habit. I was in AFROTC and was in my CAP uniform and got 2 different responses in the same day. I went in to see my flight commander about something and he treated me the same as if I was in my AFROTC uniform: a scummy GMC. When I left and was walking down the street I ran into 4 GMC's and they all saluted me. I was a 1LT at the time. Soooo, I guess it depends on what they know of CAP. If they know a lot about CAP or were in it, I guess they can feel an obligation to render C&C. If they don't know much other than we're a bunch of civilians, then they probably won't. Raising the issue won't fix things and will make you look like an ass, as we've seen. Apocryphal or not, the story does make the point that we sure as hell don't have to should NOT demand a salute. Our rank is more of a progression structure on the senior side anyway..

My $.02

The OP post claims that both the military person and the CAPer cussed each other out. I do not see that in the original as posted. I don't consider using the S-word once equal to cussing someone out. Whereas the original story does say the CAPer cussed out the military member.

Sorry the fault is all one way here.

It would make things a lot simplier for CAP if it followed the USCG Aux rule. The Aux rule is that all Auxies salute all military officers first regardless of the Auxies office insignia (Auxies do not have rank just offices). So the 3 star National Commodore should salute the newest minted Ensign or Warrant Officer first.

Coastie officer and enlisted are expected to return a salute from an Auxie.

The Aux tried to change the rule to match the CAP rule a few years ago and the Coast Guard would not even discuss it.

Assuming the story is true (a big assumption -- this is the internet after all), both were in the wrong. 

Any CAP member who would make a demand for a salute from anyone in the military is an idiot. I do not care if you are the CAP National Commander and the person is an E-1.  There is no obligation to salute you.  I can see why the enlisted person took exception with the demand and pushed back.  I also find it hard to believe that any CAP officer would believe they are entitled to this display of respect from a person in the real military. Rank in CAP is very easy to come by in comparison to the military.  Any sane person knows this so what is the basis for expecting the salute?  Ridiculous.

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

This might be surprising but...

I have been on active duty for 5 years and have never been sent overseas. About the riskiest thing I have had to do is drive on icy roads in MT during the winter.

While it's nice to be appreciated I think there are quite a few folks out there that have a somewhat distorted view of deployments of U.S. Forces. The USAF even has folks that are deployed overseas and are in areas that are really pretty darn safe.

As I said, it's nice to be appreciated, however try not to get an over zealous view of the military. That, and just because someone is serving does not give them a free pass on being a jerk.

As has been pointed out, in this case this is a very old story that got attention in the AF Times and from CAPNHQ. As others have said, on some level both of these folks could be considered somewhat in the wrong. The best way to combat this sort of thing is consistent application of proper C+C (That means a CAP COL shouldn't be saluting an Active Duty 1st Lt...it looks weird and makes CAP look like idiots. But nor should they expect a salute in return) and making sure our name gets out there in a generally positive light.

If we are better known for our missions and generally good behavior then one of these incidents is viewed as 'Oh look, you ran into an idiot' just like how I react when I read about an airman who received an Article 15. That doesn't mean I think they're all idiots, just that one.

And if, for some unknown reason, a military member salutes a CAP member, DO NOT MAKE POINT OF TELLING THEM THEY ARE WRONG OR DO NOT HAVE TO salute CAP members. Just smartly return the salute, give an appropriate greeting, and carry on.

Some military personnel actually respect CAP members, some do not know they are not required to salute CAP personnel, and some automatically salute any officer grade, regardless of the uniform it's on.

If there is any legitimacy to this and there may be the CAP member was in the wrong to demand a salute, however the AF member was wrong in not politely disengaging from it and sounds like it was an airman that did it.

Now I have been saluted while wearing CAP blues and just smiled and returned it, most do not know any better.  I know most of the guys working the gate and I get a few looks and leave it at that. 

To echo what has been said nothing is required for the military folks to salute if they do they do if not, then don't sweat it.

There was a thread on this quite some time ago, and our CAWG "leadership"  people started writing angry memos and generally crying like little poofters. Its an urban myth as far as I am concerned; No parties or first hand witnesses, and the story has changed a number of times. I think its right up there with the Cadet who was killed at encampment by drinking coke and eating Mentos, that is to say, its a complete load of.....crock.

Major Lord

The big thing here is that no matter what, you're going to get nowhere with demanding a salute. It is like demanding respect. While certain ranks and positions require certain C&C's, others are normal you get what you give respect. The Major was a complete tool, and hopefully was taken out of CAP quickly. The airman was an idiot for engaging an idiot. As my dad says, "if you try to argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you up with experience". The airman would've been better off if they politely responded, keeping a level of professionalism, and gotten the Majors name and unit, and reported them to their squadron leadership.

The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other".   

Next year the story will be changed to a CAP General, and the cussing would be "full out brawl outside the officer's club".

one of the most humbling experiences I have ever had was last year at our Wing Encampment.  I am required by my girth to wear BBDU's.  I did however have a high and tight and an impeccable uniform during encampment.  While we were waiting in line at the dining facility a command chief exited the facility, saw me, snapped a parade ground perfect salute and wished me a very good afternoon.  There was absolutely no way I could have been confused for a commissioned officer.  I was humbled to say the least.  I like to think that I received the salute because he respected the job I was doing.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on July 18, 2012, 12:23:08 AM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

This might be surprising but...

I have been on active duty for 5 years and have never been sent overseas. About the riskiest thing I have had to do is drive on icy roads in MT during the winter.

I read the bio of a recently retired Army General (O-10) with 40 years active duty. Two years in Germany, one year in Korea and the last twenty years at the Pentagon. A true administrator. Not judging, just saying  :angel:

Quote from: cap235629 on July 18, 2012, 05:31:23 AMThere was absolutely no way I could have been confused for a commissioned officer. 

Not even a Canadian officer?   >:D

Probably made Colonel at around 22. Where else are you going to put him after he puts on stars?

Quote from: spacecommand on July 18, 2012, 04:32:57 AM
The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other".   

Next year the story will be changed to a CAP General, and the cussing would be "full out brawl outside the officer's club".

From there it will escalate to a CAP General demanding respect from a Klingon Warrior, starting an interstellar war.  Wikipedia will declare it true.  The Internet is never wrong. Right?

Quote from: spacecommand on July 18, 2012, 04:32:57 AM
The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other". 

We don't know who changed the rank. The OP did not directly quote or link to the article. For all we know the OP got it wrong. The quote of the orginal article on the first page of the thread uses the rank of Major in the story.

So it appears that a denizen of CAPTalk, not the 'internet' changed the story.

The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Salute_Letter_to_all_CAP_m_AB3C339B82592.pdf).

Quote from: RRLE on July 18, 2012, 01:54:42 PM
The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Salute_Letter_to_all_CAP_m_AB3C339B82592.pdf).

I remember this, and this latest "reframing" just sounds like a rehash with changed ranks and gender.

I find the truth factor in this to be extremely dubious...it sounds like someone stirring it just to make it stink and/or as "justification" for "de-militarising" CAP even further than it already is.

I joined CAP in '93, just after the punitive imposition of berry boards, and it was hammered into my head from Day One about not expecting, or trying to get, salutes from military personnel.  It was presented to me that trying to do so was somewhere on the level of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I don't think CAP has ever recovered from the actual instances that contributed to the berry board imposition, and every time a rumoured transgression takes place, CAP leadership screams blue grey murder.

I have never personally seen an incident of this sort take place, nor have I heard about it other than in apocryphal stories like this.  I would guess most on this board have not either.

If the bit about cussing one another out is true (and I thoroughly doubt it), the CAP "officer" should get a Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200 2B, and the military member should get at least a Letter Of Counselling (or equivalent) or an Art. 15.

I couldn't tell you when the last time was I actually encountered a military member in a situation that would be appropriate for saluting, because much of the time it's been indoors at a meeting facility or MCSS, in which case casual greetings are usually exchanged.

My experience is that when I have gotten salutes (and I don't keep count), it's mostly from the Army, least from the Air Force, and others somewhere in the middle.

I agree with this post.

Quote from: arajca on July 18, 2012, 01:24:58 AM
And if, for some unknown reason, a military member salutes a CAP member, DO NOT MAKE POINT OF TELLING THEM THEY ARE WRONG OR DO NOT HAVE TO salute CAP members. Just smartly return the salute, give an appropriate greeting, and carry on.

Some military personnel actually respect CAP members, some do not know they are not required to salute CAP personnel, and some automatically salute any officer grade, regardless of the uniform it's on.

Quote from: CyBorg on July 18, 2012, 03:10:26 PM
[quote author=RRLE link=topic=15777.msg284474#msg284474

If the bit about cussing one another out is true (and I thoroughly doubt it), the CAP "officer" should get a Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200 2B, and the military member should get at least a Letter Of Counselling (or equivalent) or an Art. 15.

Sir,  if this in fact did happen it is hardly worthy of a Art 15 unless said mil member is a complete dirtbag with a jacket full of infractions.  Same with a LOC at the most this is a counselling session documented with the proper form.  If this happened he had to obligation to as I have said before disengage as politely and professionally as possible.  If this had been my troop you can be sure his but would be handed to him had they acted in the manner described. 

Quote from: RRLE on July 18, 2012, 01:54:42 PM

Quote from: spacecommand on July 18, 2012, 04:32:57 AM
The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other". 

We don't know who changed the rank. The OP did not directly quote or link to the article. For all we know the OP got it wrong. The quote of the orginal article on the first page of the thread uses the rank of Major in the story.

So it appears that a denizen of CAPTalk, not the 'internet' changed the story.

The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Salute_Letter_to_all_CAP_m_AB3C339B82592.pdf).

NHQ's response was to the stories that have been going around the internet or through rumor and to re-iterate the regulations on saluting.  NHQ specifically quoted the AF times article as an example of some of the stories people may have heard, but did not state if it were true or not.  But they have no reason to do either.
This particular story, true or not is not reflective of CAP as a whole, of course I think there are people out there who would like to make it sound like there is an epidemic out there of this happening.   Another item that we do know is that is happening out there is that there are disgruntled former CAP members out there who have published stories about CAP (it might not be this situation, but there have been other instances of false stories/allegations) that have been reported as fact or picked up as fact by some but in the end turned out to be unfounded allegations. 

Quote from: spacecommand on July 18, 2012, 08:27:08 PM

Quote from: RRLE on July 18, 2012, 01:54:42 PM

Quote from: spacecommand on July 18, 2012, 04:32:57 AM
The topic about the Major if true has already been discussed before.  Sounds like that AFtimes bulletin board article has it's story changed now, the CAP "Major" is now a "Colonel" and the disagreement has turned into "cussing at each other". 

We don't know who changed the rank. The OP did not directly quote or link to the article. For all we know the OP got it wrong. The quote of the orginal article on the first page of the thread uses the rank of Major in the story.

So it appears that a denizen of CAPTalk, not the 'internet' changed the story.

The CAP leadership at the time seemed to think the incident was real (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Military_Salute_Letter_to_all_CAP_m_AB3C339B82592.pdf).

NHQ's response was to the stories that have been going around the internet or through rumor and to re-iterate the regulations on saluting.  NHQ specifically quoted the AF times article as an example of some of the stories people may have heard, but did not state if it were true or not.  But they have no reason to do either.
This particular story, true or not is not reflective of CAP as a whole, of course I think there are people out there who would like to make it sound like there is an epidemic out there of this happening.   Another item that we do know is that is happening out there is that there are disgruntled former CAP members out there who have published stories about CAP (it might not be this situation, but there have been other instances of false stories/allegations) that have been reported as fact or picked up as fact by some but in the end turned out to be unfounded allegations.

Were it just NHQ acknowledging an urban myth, and clarifying the regulations for any Officer too stupid to have understood his years of CAP indoctrination,  it would not be so bad. CAP Corporate's position statements implied that the story had potential veracity, and that the merits of the accusations were worth acting upon, as indicated  by issuing said directives. It shows a pattern of over-reaction, immaturity, and frankly, gullibility, by those in leadership in CAP. The argument that the truth is irrelevant is an argument made by those who have no grasp of ethics or morality. The truth is always relevant.

Major Lord

Maybe I didn't put it in the right words,  but I'm pretty sure I have some ethics and morality. 

Wow :o :o :o   Having spent just a bit over 20 years of active military service in the USAF, I can't ever recall even seeing a senior member in uniform, anywhere, ever.

Most military personnel have absolutely no contact with CAP members.   Likely the most that have contact would be security forces e.g. gate guards and patrols.

The Air Force guidance is pretty clear on this AFI 10-2701 para 1-3

  1.3. Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the
UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer
upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active,
reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its
members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not
apply to CAP members.

I think if one while in ANY CAP uniform treats everyone (especially military members) with respect, politeness, and a genuine positive attitude that I/we appreciate your service, that will go a long way for the organization overall.

Bottom line --   No one in the military is required to salute CAP members.   Go see a therapist if you think otherwise >:D
RM 

Let's be honest though. How many people out of the USAF and CAP do you think have actually ready AFI 10-2701? ;)

Quote from: Major Lord on July 18, 2012, 09:59:23 PM
Were it just NHQ acknowledging an urban myth, and clarifying the regulations for any Officer too stupid to have understood his years of CAP indoctrination,  it would not be so bad. CAP Corporate's position statements implied that the story had potential veracity, and that the merits of the accusations were worth acting upon, as indicated  by issuing said directives. It shows a pattern of over-reaction, immaturity, and frankly, gullibility, by those in leadership in CAP. The argument that the truth is irrelevant is an argument made by those who have no grasp of ethics or morality. The truth is always relevant.

Major Lord

Quite well said, sir.

In almost 20 years (off-and-on) of CAP, I have never heard of anything beyond the apocryphal stories of a couple of CAP officers who got in hot water at Maxwell for trying to ream out AF SNCO's who didn't render a salute.  Every now and then someone stokes this burning pile of Bravo Sierra just to make it stink.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on July 18, 2012, 10:52:16 PM
Let's be honest though. How many people out of the USAF and CAP do you think have actually ready AFI 10-2701? ;)

I have a copy in my CAP binder, and am quite familiar with it...and not just the part about uniforms and saluting.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 18, 2012, 10:18:02 PM
Bottom line --   No one in the military is required to salute CAP members.   Go see a therapist if you think otherwise >:D
RM 

Therapy is also potentially useful for those who insist on repeatedly restating the obvious ad nauseam.

Here is a poll I did a few years ago on whether or not people personally had seen such behavior.  As expected, it was pretty rare.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=8957.40 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=8957.40)

Quote from: RiverAux on July 19, 2012, 01:51:16 AM
Here is a poll I did a few years ago on whether or not people personally had seen such behavior.  As expected, it was pretty rare.

Based on your poll, I wouldn't call the behavior common but it isn't rare either.

9.1% of your poll saw the behavior. Extend that to CAP as a whole. How many thousands of incidents does 9.1% represent? I guess it is possible that more then 1 member saw the behavior but not likely.

And a whooping 32.6%, just shy of 1/3, saw your 3 egregious behaviors. That suggests the problem is bigger then most CAPTalkers want to admit.

Yes, 32% saw such behavior in the previous FIVE years.  Now, I think its safe to say that those that did see it probably only saw one instance.  So, in other words, roughly 94% of the respondents probably didn't see any such behavior in any given year.  That is what I would call rare (even accounting for some statistical slop). 

I bet that on average you would find a worse officer-behaving badly observation rate in the real military. 

I can't see any poll results, but I'm not confident of the polling methodology.  I see at least four issues with it in terms of population size, population selection, self-selection and a leading question.

In any case - I've never heard of this, nor personally encountered any member who I thought might be prone to anything like this.

I probably got more salutes going in/out of base based on the car we drove.  In the late 80s, a Jetta was considered an "officer's car" so it was saluted all the time just based on a 2 second judgement by the gate guard.

I have been in CAP for 10+ years now......I have spent my entire CAP time ON MILITARY bases.......and while I have heard the stories......it is always "A friend of my brothers's second cousin once heard a ex-military type say" sort of a story.

Now....I don't doubt that it happens......hell it happens in the military (Officers going out of their way to catch some poor airman off guard so he can demand a salute)....(at Keesler back in the 80's the base commander would trool the student areas in his staff car with two STA's on board just so they could jump out and gig the students for being unattentive......this happened to me and we usually had at least one student in my squadron get gigged this way per week).

So......as I was saying.....I am sure it happens.....I know that it makes us look bad.....and we should stop it when it happens.....but by no means is this a pandemic that going to destroy CAP.  By no means do we need to 2b someone for it. (at least for a first offense).

And to add oil to fire.....you have real life military people who would make sure that their subordinates saluted CAP officers....even when they knew they did not have to.

This is a non-issue.....move along.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 19, 2012, 02:46:14 PM
I have been in CAP for 10+ years now......I have spent my entire CAP time ON MILITARY bases.......and while I have heard the stories......it is always "A friend of my brothers's second cousin once heard a ex-military type say" sort of a story.

Now....I don't doubt that it happens......hell it happens in the military (Officers going out of their way to catch some poor airman off guard so he can demand a salute)....(at Keesler back in the 80's the base commander would trool the student areas in his staff car with two STA's on board just so they could jump out and gig the students for being unattentive......this happened to me and we usually had at least one student in my squadron get gigged this way per week).

So......as I was saying.....I am sure it happens.....I know that it makes us look bad.....and we should stop it when it happens.....but by no means is this a pandemic that going to destroy CAP.  By no means do we need to 2b someone for it. (at least for a first offense).

And to add oil to fire.....you have real life military people who would make sure that their subordinates saluted CAP officers....even when they knew they did not have to.

This is a non-issue.....move along.

+1.

Polls are primarily a tool designed to change attitudes, not to actually reflect them. Scientific polls just use better methodology. In scientific polls, a large number of people have stated that they have seen ghosts, UFO's, post- mortem Elvis, and scientific proof of anthropogenic climate change. Polls are wonderful statistical tools, created by design to include outlying opinions and beliefs from people who we know in advanced, are deranged, ignorant, and motivated by radical ideology ( of one type or another). Taking policy action based on unproven folk lore and anecdotes is irrational.

Aside from this, I have never seen any incidence of a CAP Senior Member failing to salute an Officer ( or anyone else in uniform of virtually any kind) and having the Officer receiving the salute, fail to return it. Maybe some of you have seen Officers doing so, but I have never come across one that rude.

Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger. Fortunately, as it happens, the culprit(s) were not CAP people, just JROTC people coming in to go shopping. I told the SP's if they could find the Cadet or parent on our SQ, they were welcome to hang them from the front gate  Pour encourager les autres.

Major Lord

Quote from: Major Lord on July 19, 2012, 07:37:06 PM
Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger.

her...badger?

Quote from: CAP4117 on July 19, 2012, 10:18:02 PM

Quote from: Major Lord on July 19, 2012, 07:37:06 PM
Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger.

her...badger?

You see a badger, you better salute!

I'll remember that if I go to any University of Wisconsin sporting events.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 19, 2012, 10:24:44 PM

Quote from: CAP4117 on July 19, 2012, 10:18:02 PM

Quote from: Major Lord on July 19, 2012, 07:37:06 PM
Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger.

her...badger?

You see a badger, you better salute!

Honey Badger Rates a Salute!

Quote from: RiverAux on July 19, 2012, 12:51:51 PM
So, in other words, roughly 94% of the respondents probably didn't see any such behavior in any given year.

I still would not call 6% rare. Especially if you multiple it against the CAP membership. I don't have that number off hand but if 6% of the membership sees such an incident each year, then how hundreds to maybe thousands of such incidents are happening each year. And only a small fraction of those will make it to the Internet or be reported to 'higher authorities' whether CAP or the military high command. The rest are just passed around as scuttlebutt.

Quote from: RRLE on July 20, 2012, 01:52:48 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on July 19, 2012, 12:51:51 PM
So, in other words, roughly 94% of the respondents probably didn't see any such behavior in any given year.

I still would not call 6% rare. Especially if you multiple it against the CAP membership.

You can't, since there is no way to know who even knew about the survey, nor how they determined the sampling, and as is usually the case with surveys, those with a point to make are the ones more inclined to respond.  This could have been 100 members who haven't been active in 10 years, 100 members who have never been on a military base in their lives, or a hundred members on a base where the relationship is (or was) strained.

If ten of the hundred surveyed saw the same incident, that would be a 10% response. 

The extrapolation you suggest would be about 3600 members.  I'd find it hard to believe that there were 3600 members in CAP who even had an opportunity to salute someone in the military in a given year, let alone witnessed an abuse like this.  By far the vast majority of members
never get anywhere near a base, let alone military officers.

I've been in for 12+ years, most of the time with an office and an encampment on an active military base, and have never seen, or heard, of this kind of behavior ever, beyond the apocryphal wives tales.

It's also disappointing / indicative / interesting that somehow one theoretical goober who acts like an idiot is supposed to be representative of the entirety of CAP, as if no one in the military acts in a way that discredits their respective service. 

I don't buy the story, but one goof does not an organization make, on either side of the situation.

For the record....here is the letter sent out from the National Commander when this first came to light:

14 February 2011

Wing and Region Commanders

We've all heard the stories concerning Civil Air Patrol (CAP) officers on military installations "demanding" that they receive the rendering of a military salute from junior ranking officers and enlisted military members. We make jokes concerning the intelligence or – lack of intelligence – of the offending member and we express how this type of behavior is an embarrassment to all – both CAP members and military members. We would like to believe that this is a rare occurrence. So why is there anecdotal evidence that these "encounters" continue? Are these occurrences caused by a lack of knowledge or are they deliberate acts designed to assuage personal "issues/motivations" of the offending member?

A recent occurrence is discussed in the 17 January 2011 issue of Air Force magazine Online Forums section - between an enlisted military member and a CAP senior member officer. To paraphrase the CAP officer said, "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me..." TheMilitary member did not render a salute. Our concern is not the response of the military member, however. He was aware of CAP's relationship to the Air Force and declined to render the salute – which is a courtesy and is not a regulatory requirement. In accordance with Air Force Instruction 10-2701 Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol, "CAP uses a military style grade structure for both its Senior Members and Cadet Members. CAP grades for both cadet and senior members have no military standing, carry no authority over members of the Armed Forces, nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members." This should be common knowledge to all CAP members.  However, as members of the Civil Air Patrol, we are deeply concerned about the behavior of one of our officers.

CAP is a federally chartered non-profit organization of civilian volunteers. Yes, we are the Air Force's Auxiliary but as civilian volunteers we are not members of the military. CAP Regulation 35-10, Ethics Policy states – "Our nation expects and deserves a high standard of professional conduct. The American public entrusts CAP with their safety and welfare and with the character development of their children. Our official core values are: Integrity, Volunteerism, Excellence and Respect. These values represent a cultural commitment within CAP to practice basic honesty, to give of one's self for the betterment of humanity, to deliver top quality services, and to treat others fairly."

CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by granting cadets and senior members the privilege of wearing an Air Force-style uniform. It bears repeating – the privilege. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish our cadets from ordinary youth and identify our members with the United States Air Force. Our cadets are taught not only the proper wear of the uniform but also the proper rendering of the salute to our members, and as a courtesy, to military members in uniform. Have we "dropped" the ball with our senior members?

page 2

This brings us back to the actions of the CAP major who requested a salute from a military member. The rank of major implies that this individual is not "new" to the CAP program. Yes, you can receive a special or professional appointment to the grade of CAP major based on experience or unique skills, but normally when you see an individual in CAP wearing oak leaf clusters that implies this person has been "around" a while and should be very familiar with the CAP rank structure and the military rank structure. So was the "request" for a salute by the CAP member from a military member an honest mistake based on a lack of knowledge or a deliberate act of a personal nature? Only the individual involved can provide the answer to this question.

We can't know the heart of the individual involved in this particular situation, nor can we totally control and insure individual compliance with governing directives that address professional and ethical behavior of our members and the customs and courtesies of the military hand salute. However, we can insure that this mistake is not repeated because of a lack of knowledge. CAP members must behave honestly and ethically at all times and with all people. "Individuals will not take unfair advantage of anyone through manipulation, intimidation, concealment, abuse of privileged information, misrepresentation of material facts or any other unfair practice." (CAP's Ethical Standards).

This article is not intended to be overly critical or harsh but to convey very clearly that the behavior of this senior member is not acceptable. The challenge is for all of us, cadets and senior members, to continue to exhibit the highest standards of professional and personal conduct at all times. CAP has a distinguished history of excellence. By nature, the public has a short memory. We cannot allow our hard-earned professional image to be tainted by the conduct of a few members behaving badly. Incorrect behavior must be addressed at all times by every member – with proper respect. We are the Civil Air Patrol! Let's conduct ourselves accordingly!

AMY S. COURTER            LOU E. WALPUS
Major General, CAP        Chief Master Sergeant, CAP
National Commander      Command Chief

Again, General Courter's directive was, to me, an overreaction to an unsubstantiated incident.  Just because it was in the Air Force Times doesn't mean it is factual.  It could well have been an airman with an axe to grind (for whatever reason) against CAP.

What irritated me far worse was one of the AFT responses to the "story," where an airman said that when s/he was in BMT, his/her MTI said that if they were to encounter CAP members, IGNORE THEM.

Quite unprofessional.

sigh

Quote from: eaker.cadet on July 20, 2012, 05:56:18 PM
sigh

If your sigh is intended to indicate fatigue with this topic, I agree 100%.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 20, 2012, 02:17:38 AM
You can't, since there is no way to know who even knew about the survey, nor how they determined the sampling, and as is usually the case with surveys, those with a point to make are the ones more inclined to respond. 

Keep in mind, the survey wasn't mine. The survey originator tried to use the results of the survey to justify his assertion that the situation was rare. If he is going to claim the results are legitimate to justify his 'rare' asssertion, then he must also live by the same simple mulitplication of 6% times the membership yielding several thousand incidents a year.

I tend to think all such surveys are suspect at best and bogus at worst and I don't know why people insist on running them. But as they say, 'live by the sword, die by the sword.'

Quote from: Major Lord on July 18, 2012, 03:55:52 AM
the Cadet who was killed at encampment by drinking coke and eating Mentos

What? Holy crap, I need to go do a safety powerpoint on that!

And don't forget the dangers of feeding pop-rocks to seagulls! 100% of the respondents in my poll claim to have personally seen these events!

Major Lord
p.s. The term "Badgers" was what we called any Cadets  going to Cadet Survival School. It's not meant to be pejorative; Badgers are tough, yes, even the sweetly named "honey badger" ( This is not a female Cadet you are dating, but an actual critter)

Quote from: AirDX on July 21, 2012, 02:41:41 AM

Quote from: Major Lord on July 18, 2012, 03:55:52 AM
the Cadet who was killed at encampment by drinking coke and eating Mentos

What? Holy crap, I need to go do a safety powerpoint on that!

You're about three decades too late.

What really happened was that Mikey from the Life cereal adverts (young'uns, it's probably on YouTube) ate a load of Pop Rocks/Cosmic Candy and slugged down a six of Pepsi afterward.  His stomach blew up, like Sir John Hurt in Alien but without the Alien.

Actually, John Gilchrist ("Mikey") is alive and well today and, at last note, working in radio sales in Manhattan.

That shows the veracity of rumour and innuendo.

Quote from: CyBorg on July 20, 2012, 09:01:19 PM

Quote from: eaker.cadet on July 20, 2012, 05:56:18 PM
sigh

If your sigh is intended to indicate fatigue with this topic, I agree 100%.

Roger that sigh 

Quote from: cap235629 on July 18, 2012, 05:31:23 AM
one of the most humbling experiences I have ever had was last year at our Wing Encampment.  I am required by my girth to wear BBDU's.  I did however have a high and tight and an impeccable uniform during encampment.  While we were waiting in line at the dining facility a command chief exited the facility, saw me, snapped a parade ground perfect salute and wished me a very good afternoon.  There was absolutely no way I could have been confused for a commissioned officer.  I was humbled to say the least.  I like to think that I received the salute because he respected the job I was doing.

Sir, while this could very well be the case, and in my opinion more than likely was as the Command Chief probably knew what CAP is, and did respect what you were doing since he should be aware of the CAP Encampment on his Base. I would like to point out that he may mis-recognized you as a member of the Coast Guard in their very similar ODU's, so in fact their could have been confusion with a commissioned Coast Guard Officer, if he just quickly overlooked the uniform.

Example
(http://www.piersystem.com/clients/c780/384579.png)

The "Civil Air Patrol" tape on our uniforms is just as readable as the "U.S. Coast Guard" tape is on theirs. Additionally, the rank insignia placement differs between the two.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 24, 2012, 08:30:08 AM
The "Civil Air Patrol" tape on our uniforms is just as readable as the "U.S. Coast Guard" tape is on theirs. Additionally, the rank insignia placement differs between the two.

Sir, I did state very similar, there of course are obvious differences. Given that the name tapes are in the same color, although clearly readable. That a quick look by someone could be mistaken as such, even with the rank placement.  By no means did I intend to denounce the situation in which Capt. Hobbs was in. Just pointing out that confusion could still be had. A personal example (Although very different) from my time in the ARNG is that between a Specialist and an LTC at a good distance on the ACU look very similar, and for a bit until that said Soldier is in better viewing distance can be laughably confused as to what to do Salute wise until that last second. (In normal circumstances this is easily avoided as it would be very rare to see an 18-27 LTC)

Quote from: Bulls729 on July 24, 2012, 08:39:46 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on July 24, 2012, 08:30:08 AM
The "Civil Air Patrol" tape on our uniforms is just as readable as the "U.S. Coast Guard" tape is on theirs. Additionally, the rank insignia placement differs between the two.

Sir, I did state very similar, there of course are obvious differences. Given that the name tapes are in the same color,

Our name tapes are not the same color.

Bill's talking about a Command Chief, not some slick-sleeve just out of boot camp.

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PMAs soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No, they do not.  Not by regulation, not by custom, not in any way, shape, or form.

Time to brush up on your reading and understanding of the appropriate regulations and pamphlets.

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No. We're civilians. Nobody in the military "out ranks" us because we're not in the military.

Quote from: david sinn on August 05, 2012, 04:57:12 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No. We're civilians. Nobody in the military "out ranks" us because we're not in the military.

So since were civilians i can go up to a Private in the army in a CAP uniform and spit on him? That is a definite NO. 

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2012, 04:56:48 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PMAs soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No, they do not.  Not by regulation, not by custom, not in any way, shape, or form.

Time to brush up on your reading and understanding of the appropriate regulations and pamphlets.

You are correct. It is just what CAP does. At Least in the PA wing. Since we are civilians and they are military we act as if they are superior to us. You are correct though there is no written statement.

 So since were civilians i can go up to a Private in the army in a CAP uniform and spit on him? That is a definite NO.


Why not? What stops you from spitting on anyone? It's a free country, but there may be consequences. It's not like Army Privates are issued a force-field that protects them from spit.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2012, 05:37:15 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:38:25 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2012, 04:56:48 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PMAs soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No, they do not.  Not by regulation, not by custom, not in any way, shape, or form.

Time to brush up on your reading and understanding of the appropriate regulations and pamphlets.

You are correct. It is just what CAP does. At Least in the PA wing. Since we are civilians and they are military we act as if they are superior to us. You are correct though there is no written statement.

Did you know, a SM WOG outranks a 20 years old C/Col? An 18 year old FO outranks a 20 year old C/Col?

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:35:43 PM

Quote from: david sinn on August 05, 2012, 04:57:12 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No. We're civilians. Nobody in the military "out ranks" us because we're not in the military.

So since were civilians i can go up to a Private in the army in a CAP uniform and spit on him? That is a definite NO.

Yep...that's right.....because we are civilains we can assalt anyone we want.
Dude.......might I suggest that you just walk away from the computer for 5 days.....go outside and play...chase a squirle...do something but make yourself look even stupider here on CAPTALK.....really.

Your history of posts is just not doing you any favors....and I know that soon someone is going to use their CAP/IT Jedi skills and find out who you are and make a phone call to your commander.......and that's not going to be pretty.

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:40:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2012, 05:37:15 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

Said C/Col doesn't outrank anyone in the military, because they are not in the same chain of command or even structure.

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:38:25 PM
You are correct. It is just what CAP does. At Least in the PA wing. Since we are civilians and they are military we act as if they are superior to us. You are correct though there is no written statement.

It is not what "CAP does".  You are fundamentally misunderstanding what is happening around you.

There's a difference between fundamental respect for some one's service (whatever form it takes), and general deference to those in the military.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 05, 2012, 05:39:18 PM
So since were civilians i can go up to a Private in the army in a CAP uniform and spit on him? That is a definite NO.


Why not? What stops you from spitting on anyone? It's a free country, but there may be consequences. It's not like Army Privates are issued a force-field that protects them from spit.

I know anyone can do anything. Whats your point though?

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2012, 05:41:56 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:38:25 PM
You are correct. It is just what CAP does. At Least in the PA wing. Since we are civilians and they are military we act as if they are superior to us. You are correct though there is no written statement.

It is not what "CAP does".  You are fundamentally misunderstanding what is happening around you.

There's a difference between fundamental respect for some one's service (whatever form it takes), and general deference to those in the military.

Exactly because of the position they are in we treat them as superior officers.

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:43:36 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 05, 2012, 05:39:18 PM
So since were civilians i can go up to a Private in the army in a CAP uniform and spit on him? That is a definite NO.


Why not? What stops you from spitting on anyone? It's a free country, but there may be consequences. It's not like Army Privates are issued a force-field that protects them from spit.

I know anyone can do anything. Whats your point though?

My point is that you can spit at anyone you want in a CAP uniform. There may be consequences, but they will be the same whether you spit on a C/AB, SMWOG, C/Col, MG Carr, the local bum, high school drop out, or Army General.

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:44:49 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2012, 05:41:56 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:38:25 PM
You are correct. It is just what CAP does. At Least in the PA wing. Since we are civilians and they are military we act as if they are superior to us. You are correct though there is no written statement.

It is not what "CAP does".  You are fundamentally misunderstanding what is happening around you.

There's a difference between fundamental respect for some one's service (whatever form it takes), and general deference to those in the military.

Exactly because of the position they are in we treat them as superior officers.

No we do not. There are plenty of scum bags in the military. They are people, just like you and me. We respect them for their service, but beyond saluting their grade (when higher than ours), we do not owe them anything in terms of respect. As the famous quote goes: "You salute the grade, not them man."

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:40:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2012, 05:37:15 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

I am not insisting on anything....other than your statement was wrong.  You see where you are failing....is that your basic premise and assumptions are just not correct.  CAP and the real military are not in the same chain of command....ergo neither outranks the other.  According to CAP regulations and customs......we CAP honor the USAF's customs and courtesies..by saluting their officers....but that is not the same as them outranking us.

NOW.....as for your attitdude.....I'm about to put my Sergeant Hat on now, and I don't usually do that here on CT.......You need to slow your role there cadet.  My name is Master Sergeant Patrick Harris and I have been there and done that......I have even been known to be wrong on occasion......but you don't want to get on my bad side.....so ammend your attitude.  Thanks for Playing.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2012, 05:48:57 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:40:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2012, 05:37:15 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

I am not insisting on anything....other than your statement was wrong.  You see where you are failing....is that your basic premise and assumptions are just not correct.  CAP and the real military are not in the same chain of command....ergo neither outranks the other.  According to CAP regulations and customs......we CAP honor the USAF's customs and courtesies..by saluting their officers....but that is not the same as them outranking us.

NOW.....as for your attitdude.....I'm about to put my Sergeant Hat on now, and I don't usually do that here on CT.......You need to slow your role there cadet.  My name is Master Sergeant Patrick Harris and I have been there and done that......I have even been known to be wrong on occasion......but you don't want to get on my bad side.....so ammend your attitude.  Thanks for Playing.

I personally would be running to hide behind hills, and digging in for the mortar strikes.  >:D

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:44:49 PM
Exactly because of the position they are in we treat them as superior officers.

No, we treat them as officers, who are assumed to be educated gentlemen and of the same general mindset,
and regardless have assumed some responsibility for the protection of our freedoms.  That, in and of itself,
does not give them any inherent authority over CAP.

Not everyone in the military is an officer, BTW.

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:35:43 PM

Quote from: david sinn on August 05, 2012, 04:57:12 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

No. We're civilians. Nobody in the military "out ranks" us because we're not in the military.

So since were civilians i can go up to a Private in the army in a CAP uniform and spit on him? That is a definite NO.

Yeah, you could do that. And you would be committing the crime of assault. Is this worth going to jail for?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...I mean captalk. We are getting professionally trolled. Take a look at the 2 threads that red_sox's is currently posting in. Both are clearly meant to stir up trouble. Please, do not feed the trolls.

His other topics make me think new, young cadet more than a troll driveby.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 05, 2012, 07:25:36 PM
His other topics make me think new, young cadet more than a troll driveby.

Exactly. He's 12 yo, and lives in central Pennsylvania in a rural area. I've been there, and many of the attitudes are very provincial.

I spoke about this kind of an issue during a recent RSC. The whole section on this went on for...awhile (you can ask some of the students) and this is what I see it boiling down to.

As a military officer who is also a CAP officer I understand what you are trying to convey (respect/admiration, etc) and appreciate the thought. I really do. It's good to know there are people there that recognize the sacrifices of the military.

However, if someone is not a member of CAP they don't necessarily understand exactly what you are trying to convey. To them, you may come across just like the little kids that salute us. Cute...but don't really fully understand the custom behind it.

The key to Customs and Courtesies is that they are simply inherent. You don't 'think about them' on a day to day basis. If an airman salutes me, I return the salute, greet them, and go back to thinking about whatever I was thinking about before they walked up to me. (It may not be something earth shattering like 'How will the decisions I am going to make today going to affect the security of the United States?' it is often 'Hmm...what do I want for lunch today. I don't know...I'll make up my mind when I get in my car...') And ya know what? That Airman (and please correct me if I'm wrong MSgt Harris) is probably thinking 'Oh! Officer...Good [Whatever] Sir' and then going back to thinking about what they want to have for lunch today.

I couldn't tell you how many salutes I receive a day (I would say at least one going through the gate) because I don't think about it. However, the salute that is missed or rendered improperly does stick out in my mind...and this is key...because it is strange. It is out of the ordinary. My brain will ping on that and start to ask questions.

That's what happens when a CAP member salutes someone who ordinarily wouldn't receive a salute from an AD officer of similar rank to the CAP member. It's strange and it sticks out. And they may start thinking you don't know what you are doing and can't get something as basic as C+C down. You don't want that. You don't want the question ever asked in the first place.

If you look like (not meaning necessarily dressed the same, I mean neat, clean, (long hair whatever) and carrying yourself in a proud/respectful manner), sound like (use the same types of expressions), and act like (professionally, AF-like C+C and whatnot) an Air Force person, then they are quickly going to look past all that and really look at what you are doing. This is (generally) a good thing  for CAP.

Same thing if an AF member salutes you when they are not required. Think of the people that say 'Well I would correct them because they need to know they don't have to.' It only proves the point...they may know they aren't required to and are choosing to as a way of showing respect. Maybe they were a former cadet, maybe they are a current member, who knows? Just return it and carry on and it will simply pass from their mind and they will go back about their life. If they stop and ask a question (most won't) you can certainly answer it but should turn it to a discussion about what CAP is really about, not just the C+C requirements, as quickly as possible.

If some military member is being a jerk, DO NOT ENGAGE THEM ON IT. You'll only feed their disgust with the organization. If they say something miserable to a superior or junior, yeah it bites, but let them press on. If you're lucky, there will be someone around who is a member of both organizations, or aware of both and let the military guy, in military uniform, engage them on it at an appropriate time.

The closer our customs and courtesies are to the USAF members, the more forgetable they become. It may seem strange, but that's actually a good thing. You want them to have a much stronger impression than 'Well they can salute well', you want them focused on the positives of our mission. And if it's consistently done the proper or 'same' way as the USAF folks then when some miserable person says something bad about CAP the person being addressed is likely to go back through encounters in their mind and go 'I've never had an issue with them' and take what the miserable person is saying with a grain of salt. That's the best defense against them we can possibly have.

So, long story short:
It is better for C+C to mirror our big brother service. Salute officers of higher rank. Don't salute those of same or lower. If someone salutes you when not required, return it and move on. If someone says something miserable or mean about it indirectly or to your face, do not engage them. If it's abusive, find an appropriate person to address it with as there are different issues at play.  And please don't make a mess that folks have to clean up.

We ARE required to salute officers of a higher grade/rank...our ranks are not part of the military rank system but work "in parallel" to them.  Therefore, I am required to salute anyone above the grade of O-3.  However, an O-2, O-1 or any grade of warrant officer/NCO/enlisted are not required to salute me, but as the regs say, they are not prohibited from doing so if they wish.  So the situation is not an equal one.  A military officer can reprimand us for not saluting but we cannot reprimand a military member for the same.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary takes it even further.  Even their National Commodore, James Vass, is required to salute the newest Warrant Officer 1, despite the fact that he wears office (grade) insignia of a Vice Admiral; however, Auxiliarists do not salute one another.

(http://cgaux.org/leadership/images/COMO_Vass.jpg)

I saluted a Canadian Captain at an airshow when I was a First Lieutenant.  He just nodded and returned the salute.

My first Squadron CC, who later became a Wing CC, told me that when he is at Maxwell saluting is about all he gets done, due to the large contingent of foreign personnel taking training there.  He said "I've seen Germans, Canadians, French, Australians, etc. and since I don't know a lot of their grade insignia, I just salute even though I might be saluting a Corporal."

An AFRES First Lieutenant saluted me at an airshow years ago even though we were the same grade level.  I told him, "you're not required to do that," and he said, "I know, I just wanted to show respect for a fellow officer."

And really, that's the gist of it: showing respect.  It's got nothing to do with subservience, idolatry, etc.

Just hope I didn't confuse you or anyone else.

Yes - Salute officers of higher rank (it's required)

I am saying to you as one of the USAF/CAP dual-hatted folks...please don't do what the USCG AUX does. It's not required and it looks strange to the majority of USAF-only personnel. The less CAP looks strange to them, the better! (Don't confuse distinctive with strange here please!)

Even in the G+W, if you follow the above, the G+W will pass through the memory a little faster. (Strange...but more into the realm of 'I don't understand what I just saw...but I'm not going to worry about it. I'm going to go back to thinking about my lunch!)

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 05, 2012, 05:50:51 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2012, 05:48:57 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 05:40:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2012, 05:37:15 PM

Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 05, 2012, 04:54:11 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
I was reading a story on the Internet today about a man in the military. He was walking and a CAP colonel stopped him and told him he had to salute her. He said he was not required to because she is an auxiliary organization of the Air Force and did not actually count as being in the military.  They began to cuss each other out. Which one of them do you think was right? I personally believe the military man was correct. I believe she should had saluted him even though she out ranked him. When in that situation in both shoes, as a CAP colonel and a military man, what would you do?

As soon as someone is sworn into the armed forces they immediately out rank every CAP member. Even a private fresh out of basic training out ranks a Cadet Colonel. Simple as that

NO.  Thanks for playing.

So your insisting that a Cadet Colonel would out rank lets say a captain in the army? If that's what your thinking then Sergeant you are highly wrong.

I am not insisting on anything....other than your statement was wrong.  You see where you are failing....is that your basic premise and assumptions are just not correct.  CAP and the real military are not in the same chain of command....ergo neither outranks the other.  According to CAP regulations and customs......we CAP honor the USAF's customs and courtesies..by saluting their officers....but that is not the same as them outranking us.

NOW.....as for your attitdude.....I'm about to put my Sergeant Hat on now, and I don't usually do that here on CT.......You need to slow your role there cadet.  My name is Master Sergeant Patrick Harris and I have been there and done that......I have even been known to be wrong on occasion......but you don't want to get on my bad side.....so ammend your attitude.  Thanks for Playing.

I personally would be running to hide behind hills, and digging in for the mortar strikes.  >:D

*Grabs some popcorn and gets comfy* These fireworks are gonna be good.

My money's on this guy Harris. Those sergeant stripes were earned, pals.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 06, 2012, 01:17:28 AM
My money's on this guy Harris. Those sergeant stripes were earned, pals.

Bu-but, I heard the other guy was the Space Shuttle Door Gunner in the elite 67th Chairbone Division!!!

Do not  let any person fool you, all space shuttle door gunners have been laid off!

Quote from: eaker.cadet on August 06, 2012, 03:29:35 AM
Do not  let any person fool you, all space shuttle door gunners have been laid off!

They were all let off just before the last landing!

Quote from: CyBorg on August 05, 2012, 08:46:23 PM

The Coast Guard Auxiliary takes it even further.  Even their National Commodore, James Vass, is required to salute the newest Warrant Officer 1, despite the fact that he wears office (grade) insignia of a Vice Admiral; however, Auxiliarists do not salute one another.

off topic....

The CG has Warrant officer 1's?

Quote from: Ford73Diesel on August 09, 2012, 05:22:40 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on August 05, 2012, 08:46:23 PM

The Coast Guard Auxiliary takes it even further.  Even their National Commodore, James Vass, is required to salute the newest Warrant Officer 1, despite the fact that he wears office (grade) insignia of a Vice Admiral; however, Auxiliarists do not salute one another.

off topic....

The CG has Warrant officer 1's?

I think he meant RM.

OK...time to weigh in.

During my 3 days at LRAFB, there were a plenitude of AD Airmen and officers, Marines and a few Soldiers walking around. The Marines did not acknowledge our existence. The Soldiers called us "Sir" or "Ma'am" as they saw fit but no salutes were exchanged. The AD Airmen and officers treated us as if we were one of them. Salutes were given, salutes were returned. At the mess hall, our cadets held the doors open for all AD. They were pleased that we had a bunch of respectful cadets. I think it had to do with the base commander being such a supporter of CAP. Many officers and senior NCOs had at least a passing knowledge of CAP.

Quote from: Garibaldi on August 09, 2012, 07:15:12 PM
The AD Airmen and officers treated us as if we were one of them.

Thank you for sharing that. My unit's Ops O is an USAFR O3 and when he talks about our place within the larger AF family, its in these kinds of terms. It's nice to hear the same sentiment here on CT, where it's regularly passed around that we're the proverbial red-headed step-child (no offense to gingers or step children) who is barely tolerated by Big Blue.

Quote from: CyBorg on August 05, 2012, 08:46:23 PM
The Coast Guard Auxiliary takes it even further.  Even their National Commodore, James Vass, is required to salute the newest Warrant Officer 1, despite the fact that he wears office (grade) insignia of a Vice Admiral; however, Auxiliarists do not salute one another.

Actually that is not accurate. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Coast Guard Auxiliary members are only required to salute those military officers who are senior to them. Office insignia in the CGAUX parallels grade insignia in the military. The National Commodore is not required to salute a Warrant Officer. As a Flotilla Staff Officer (same insignia as an Ensign/Second Lieutenant) I am only required to salute O-2's and higher.

Yee gad!  Would some buddy, any buddy, PLEASE bury this horse!!

I don't know that's it really dead...

Dr. McCoy?

He's Dead, Jim ! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0#)

Well I think that settles it.

Quote from: Walkman on August 09, 2012, 08:32:07 PM
Thank you for sharing that. My unit's Ops O is an USAFR O3 and when he talks about our place within the larger AF family, its in these kinds of terms. It's nice to hear the same sentiment here on CT, where it's regularly passed around that we're the proverbial red-headed step-child (no offense to gingers or step children) who is barely tolerated by Big Blue.

That is a good account.  That AFRES Captain sounds like a good egg.  I can count the number of times I have heard an AF member refer to CAP as "part of the Air Force family"...one (1).  That was about 15 years ago, from a Captain heading a university ROTC detachment that we used to work with.  Most of the attitudes I've got from AF personnel range from grudging acceptance, to indifference, to background uncomplimentary murmuring about us being "all officers."  I've got the occasional warm fuzzy from AF personnel, as when I was coming out of an MCSS right after joining CAP in '93.  I saluted an AFRES Lt Col, offered the customary "good afternoon, Sir."  He returned my salute and stopped, shook my hand vigorously and said "Lieutenant, you CAP people take so much of the workload off us"....I wish I could have videotaped that.

But remember, I came into CAP right after the rift with the AF started (berry boards).

Sorry for one last gasp at the dead horse...

For those who are curious, the CG does not have W-1's.  The CG and Navy start at CWO-2.  The Army and Marines have W-1's.

http://www.defense.gov/about/insignias/officers.aspx (http://www.defense.gov/about/insignias/officers.aspx)

I got my information from having been in the Auxiliary myself, having been a VFC, and keeping a pair of Member insignia in my pocket in case I had to augment (I never did, unfortunately).  I remember being told that ALL commissioned and warrant officers outranked me, but to return salutes when given.

However, it's been several years since I was in the Auxiliary, and recent research seems to corroborate your statement about only saluting officers senior in grade/office.  I stand corrected.

Back to your regularly scheduled "let-the-horse-die" programming.

OK, here's a new twist for this discussion:

Do CAP and CGAUX members salute each other?

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 12, 2012, 12:45:39 AM
OK, here's a new twist for this discussion:

Do CAP and CGAUX members salute each other?

I absolutely would. I have no clue how to read their grade insignia, but when in doubt...

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 12, 2012, 12:45:39 AM
OK, here's a new twist for this discussion:

Do CAP and CGAUX members salute each other?

HAVE TO.......no.  But I would.

Those old Vets wearing the ball caps, then ones who come up and talk to you and they show appreciation for you serving, well I salute those guys and thank them for their service.  I have even saluted NSCC Officers who were wearing higher grade than mine.....We dont have to do so but it is the proper and proffesional thing to do.We all are all on the same team......trying to serve our community and nation.

Having been an Auxiliarist myself, I have no problem saluting them, even though it's not required.  NSCC, too, and State Guard officers.

Quote from: eaker.cadet on August 12, 2012, 03:11:49 AM
We dont have to do so but it is the proper and proffesional thing to do.We all are all on the same team......trying to serve our community and nation.

I don't think I have read a more succinct summary of our various quasi-military organisations acting in support of the Armed Forces. :clap:

One time I was in a McDonald's on the way to a meeting and there was an elderly gentleman and his wife sitting a couple of booths away from me.  He had a ball cap on that said "Iwo Jima Veteran, with the USMC EGA."  I walked up to his table, came to attention and snapped him my best salute.  He looked a little taken aback at first but then returned the salute, smiled and said "thank you, Captain."  I said "thank you, Marine."

Quote from: Walkman on August 12, 2012, 12:47:36 AM
[I absolutely would. I have no clue how to read their grade insignia, but when in doubt...

Off-topic but...


It reads the same as Navy and Gold-side Coast Guard: first: more stripes outrank less stripes and second: thick stripes outrank thin stripes.

Technically there is no rank in the USCGAUX, we are all referred to as "Auxiliarist", abbreviated AUX. Exception for the Commodores at the Division+ (read Wing) levels, they are referred to as "Commodore" and use the abbreviation COMO. Sleeve and collar insignia is the same as active duty Coast Guard except silver stripes instead of gold, hence gold-side vs silver-side, and the shield with the letter "A". On the shoulder boards and the sleeve stripes on the dress blues coat, a white A indicates an elected position such as Flotila Commander (read Squadron Commander, and yes you heard right, ELECTED), and a red A indicates an appointed position such as a staff position assigned to you by the FC. If you don't have a staff position you wear the shoulder boards with no stripes, just the shield with a silver "A" (On the collar insignia, a blue "A" imposed over your office insignia means an elected position. The red "A" is repeated on the collar insignia same as on "soft" insignia).

Again, insignia doesn't indicate rank in the CGAUX, but duty position. A Flotila staff officer for example wears "Ensign stripes" - one stripe with a red "A" shield, or gold bars on the collar with a red "A" on them. A Flotilla Commander for example will always wear two full size stripes wsame as a Navy or USCG LT with a white "A" shield, or LT bars (Captain's bars for you non-seagoing types) with a blue "A" centered.

So what happens if a former Flotilla Commander then gets appointed to a FSO (Flotilla Staff Officer) position by his/her successor? Does he/she have to replace the FC insignia with the "subordinate" FSO "Ensign" insignia? Nope! AUXMAN (our regs collection) says you wear the office insignia of your HIGHEST office held, not your current.

Hope this helps!

Now if only I could find out what the hold-up is with my membership application at DIRAUX...

Brad is correct in his description of USCGAUX insignia.

However, I could never get the alphabet-soup designations straight, or why there had to be a blue "A" v. a red "A" for elected/appointed positions.

When I see a CGAUXIE now I just say "Lieutenant," "Ensign," "Commander" etc. even though it's not on-paper correct.  WIWACGA that's what most military types who saw me did..."Ensign" when I was an FSO or "Lieutenant" when I was a VFC.

I don't know if they salute us or not; I imagine it's down to the individual Auxiliarist.

I do know I'd give a lot to have CAP have the excellent relationship with the Air Force that they have with the Coast Guard.

Seems to me that both auxiliaries would exchange courtesies.

But the Young Marines, the NSCC and the Army Cadets? While the Sea Cadets are Congressionally chartered, so's the Red Cross and many other organizations (so that's not really an equivalency), if you wanted to get to brass tacks. The other two are private organizations. None of them salute CAP members of any stripe that I've ever seen, and I've seen it personally. Funny looks is all you see exchanged.

If you choose to salute them, that's up to you -- using the "when in doubt" philosophy, if you want -- but speaking for myself, I can't see why. They're not auxiliaries with an operational raison d'etre and a well-defined relationship with their parents, but rather strictly youth programs, just wearing military uniforms with some modifications. 

Exchanging salutes with Auxies might be a good thing to see in regulation, I imagine, regardless.

Again, just my personal opinion.

For some of you old soldiers, remember the Army slogan that went this way: "if it moves, salute it, if it doesn't move, paint it and if you can't paint it, pick it up and move it". ?

Sort of where this thread has gone.

Quote from: bosshawk on August 13, 2012, 06:06:42 AM
For some of you old soldiers, remember the Army slogan that went this way: "if it moves, salute it, if it doesn't move, paint it and if you can't paint it, pick it up and move it". ?

Sort of where this thread has gone.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
nuff said, moving on.......

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on August 13, 2012, 03:47:28 AM
They're not auxiliaries with an operational raison d'etre and a well-defined relationship with their parents, but rather strictly youth programs, just wearing military uniforms with some modifications. 

Sometimes our operational raison d'etre and especially relationship with our parent service is not all that well-defined.

My first CAP unit met at an Armed Forces Reserve facility that also had Navy Reserves, Marine Reserves, Army National Guard and NSCC.  The Sea Cadets had near-full use of the Navy Reserve section; we had one room and one file cabinet in the Guard section.  The NSCC section had prominent signage stating that they were "part of the NAVY family."  In nearly two decades of CAP service, I have heard one (1) AF member say that about CAP.

Another CAP unit I served had one room at a college campus and we had to keep our files in moveable containers.  There was an Air National Guard facility nearby where we were persona non grata.

Which relationship is better delineated?

As a matter of regulation CG Auxies don't salute each other (Its not required but on the other hand isn't prohibited either) and isn't like CAP senior members who just fail to do follow the regulation).  So, requiring CAP members to salute those in the CG Aux hardly seems worthwhile. 

Quote from: Brad on August 12, 2012, 08:58:56 AM

Technically there is no rank in the USCGAUX, we are all referred to as "Auxiliarist", abbreviated AUX. Exception for the Commodores at the Division+ (read Wing) levels, they are referred to as "Commodore" and use the abbreviation COMO.

Change division to district. The Aux structure top to bottom is National, District (which might cover multiple states), Divisions (generally smaller then a state but some are equal to states) and flotilla. Only the top dog in the district is a COMO. The Vice and Rears lost those designations about a year ago.

Quote from: Brad on August 12, 2012, 08:58:56 AM
On the shoulder boards and the sleeve stripes on the dress blues coat, a white A indicates an elected position such as Flotila Commander (read Squadron Commander, and yes you heard right, ELECTED), and a red A indicates an appointed position such as a staff position.

And just to add complexity to the matter, the sew-on office insignia for the ODU now sports a black "A" for everyone.

Quote from: Brad on August 12, 2012, 08:58:56 AM
So what happens if a former Flotilla Commander then gets appointed to a FSO (Flotilla Staff Officer) position by his/her successor? Does he/she have to replace the FC insignia with the "subordinate" FSO "Ensign" insignia? Nope! AUXMAN (our regs collection) says you wear the office insignia of your HIGHEST office held, not your current.

With the caveat that if the current office does not match the insignia then the Past Officer Device (POD) must also be worn.

My $0.02 on the CGAUX officers:  If I see someone with a bird on their collar/shoulder, I'm saluting them.  I don't care if the bird has an "A" on it or not.  (It goes without saying that I'm saluting anyone wearing stars on collars or shoulders, "A" or not.)

Easy fix, at least from my perspective.  As many have said, it's a courtesy, not a requirement.  For those wearing AD uniforms, it's a requirement I'm happy to fulfill.

Jack

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 14, 2012, 10:47:38 PM
(It goes without saying that I'm saluting anyone wearing stars on collars or shoulders, "A" or not.)

Pop quiz, hotshot:  "HWSRN" walks into a room with 12 stars on his shoulders...what do you do?   >:D

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 15, 2012, 04:01:40 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 14, 2012, 10:47:38 PM
(It goes without saying that I'm saluting anyone wearing stars on collars or shoulders, "A" or not.)

Pop quiz, hotshot:  "HWSRN" walks into a room with 12 stars on his shoulders...what do you do?   >:D

One finger Salute?

Quote from: RiverAux on August 13, 2012, 07:22:52 PM
As a matter of regulation CG Auxies don't salute each other (Its not required but on the other hand isn't prohibited either) and isn't like CAP senior members who just fail to do follow the regulation).  So, requiring CAP members to salute those in the CG Aux hardly seems worthwhile.

Quite right.

There was also a previous post from another contributor who stated that Auxies must salute all regular officers. Incorrect! Just like CAP members, Auxies only salute regulars of higher grade (yes, Auxies have office, not grade, but you know what I mean). Commodore Vass would no more salute a USCG Ensign than would Maj Gen Carr salute a USAF 2nd Lt.

Like CAP Officers, Auxies are instructed to return any salute rendered by an Armed Forces regular, even though the initiated salute is not required.   

Neither CAP not CGAux regs specify saluting members of each other's auxiliary, but the world would not end if somebody actually did.  ;)

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 15, 2012, 04:01:40 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 14, 2012, 10:47:38 PM
(It goes without saying that I'm saluting anyone wearing stars on collars or shoulders, "A" or not.)

Pop quiz, hotshot:  "HWSRN" walks into a room with 12 stars on his shoulders...what do you do?   >:D

Oh, well, if it's him ... the one-finger salute is most appropriate.   :P

And that's "Colonel Hotshot" to you ...  ;D

Jack

Quote from: Turk on August 15, 2012, 04:17:00 PM
There was also a previous post from another contributor who stated that Auxies must salute all regular officers. Incorrect! Just like CAP members, Auxies only salute regulars of higher grade (yes, Auxies have office, not grade, but you know what I mean). Commodore Vass would no more salute a USCG Ensign than would Maj Gen Carr salute a USAF 2nd Lt.

Turk,

Your are mistaken as to the USCG Aux regs.

This is the reg from the AuxMan (Auxiliary Manual) that was published in 2011. The saluting reg for Auxies has not changed since the inception of the Aux.

"The hand salute is a long-established form of greeting and recognition exchanged between persons in the Armed Forces. Saluting is proper courtesy for Auxiliarists when greeting commissioned officers of the Armed Forces including National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the U.S. Public Health Service (USPHS) uniformed officers who serve with the Armed Forces."

AuxMan 12.A.1. Greetings.

Read the part in bold. Auxies, all Auxies, greet all military officers with a salute. There is no leeway for a high ranking officer to not salute a low ranking member of the military. I was on the final edit board for the prior revision of the AuxMan. The Aux tried to put a 'higher then themselves' provision in the AuxMan. Nat Aux did put such a statement in a Aux-only (not USCG approved) publication. The USCG ripped out that Aux's attempt to change the saluting rule and it remains as it always was - all Auxies salute all military officers first. So the National Commodore must salute the newest minted Ensign or Warrant Officer.

Further, the AuxMan is not neutral about saluting between Auxies. This would put the kibosh on any idea of the two Auxiliaries saluting each other.

"Saluting is not required between Auxiliarists nor is it usually the custom of greeting between them."

AuxMan 12.Introduction

If something is not required and not 'usually the custom' then you are violating long standing custom and courtesies to begin saluting other Auxies.

Thanks RRLE -- I made a half-hearted attempt to look up the reg as I knew the rule, but didn't want to say anything without backup.

However, I disagree about your interpretation of saluting between Auxies.  It is certainly not required, but if they wanted to actually prohibit it, they would have said so -- just like they've prohibited all sorts of other activities, in clear language.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 15, 2012, 08:42:31 PMHowever, I disagree about your interpretation of saluting between Auxies.  It is certainly not required, but if they wanted to actually prohibit it, they would have said so -- just like they've prohibited all sorts of other activities, in clear language.

There is not an outright ban since there is one occasion that I am aware of that saluting between Auxies does occur and with USCG knowledge. That is the Change of Watch (the Aux does not change command) between the National Officers. That has been going on for years. But to state that something is not 'usually the custom' then it is not something that should be done by Auxies as a regular part of Auxie culture.

There was an Auxie who was very stringent about instituting saluting among Auxies. He started doing it in his flotilla and would write about it on military.com. I warned him not to do it or take it public, based on earlier versions of the AuxMan rule above. He got away with it for quite a while. Then while he was running a color guard at a division meeting he saluted the color guard at the end. They returned the salute and he got a public reaming by the Powers-That-Be. That was the end of his attempt to institute saluting among Auxies.

Saluting among Auxies certainly doesn't make sense in the first place since no Auxie "outranks" another in the traditional sense of the word.  Just pointing out that it isn't prohibited.  I suppose if an individual Auxie wanted to start saluting those who "out-officed" him, he could. but you certainly couldn't force anyone else to start doing the same.

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Thats not a reason to salute. Enlisted soldiers are not saluted. period.

Quote from: RRLE on August 15, 2012, 08:40:55 PM
Read the part in bold. Auxies, all Auxies, greet all military officers with a salute. There is no leeway for a high ranking officer to not salute a low ranking member of the military. I was on the final edit board for the prior revision of the AuxMan. The Aux tried to put a 'higher then themselves' provision in the AuxMan. Nat Aux did put such a statement in a Aux-only (not USCG approved) publication. The USCG ripped out that Aux's attempt to change the saluting rule and it remains as it always was - all Auxies salute all military officers first. So the National Commodore must salute the newest minted Ensign or Warrant Officer.

So I wasn't wrong after all.

Quote from: RRLE on August 15, 2012, 08:40:55 PM
Further, the AuxMan is not neutral about saluting between Auxies. This would put the kibosh on any idea of the two Auxiliaries saluting each other.

I rarely saw it happen, but when it did, there was no fanfare about it.  I saluted my FC once when getting presented with an award; he just returned it and said "Carry on."

If the Coast Guard wanted it not to happen, someone with lots of gold piston rings would have made sure it was in the AuxMan...just as the somewhat-goofy reg we have about us having to salute military members but it being optional for them to salute us.

I know some have suggested an equivalent of the CGAUX Member Device for CAP members to wear when working with the military...there were a lot of things I liked about being in the Auxiliary but the "rank that isn't rank" and the plethora of office abbreviations was not one of them, and I wouldn't like us to adopt that at all, though the "nonmilitary" zealots would probably clamour for it.

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000003643600_MED.jpg)

I used to carry a set of these in my pocket at all times; never had to use them except before holding an office.

I think our regs should be revised so that we are required to salute one another and make it either/or regarding the military:  either make it optional for us to salute them (most of us would, I think) or make it required for them to salute us (ain't happenin').

Quote from: CyBorg on August 16, 2012, 02:20:17 AM
I know some have suggested an equivalent of the CGAUX Member Device for CAP members to wear when working with the military...t

Heck, there probably aren't enough CAP members "working with the military" to justify making a special device.  Of course, that hasn't stopped us from having an "NCO program" either. 

It would probably just entail some combination of the metal CAP cutouts and blank grey epaulette sleeves rather than something entirely new.

Quote from: CyBorg on August 16, 2012, 06:34:54 AM
It would probably just entail some combination of the metal CAP cutouts and blank grey epaulette sleeves rather than something entirely new.

In this day and age it'd more likely be pin-on versions of TTT

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2012, 11:00:45 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Thats not a reason to salute. Enlisted soldiers are not saluted. period.

Unless they were awarded the Medal of Honor.

salute anything that moves ;D

Please...don't. I wish this mentality would die. It makes people look silly. It applies if you don't know any better. But for CAP members if the rank is on the shoulder, collar, or chest and looks like our officer ranks. Salute as appropriate based on rank. If it's Navy/Coastie style shoulder or sleeve marks...well, at least learn to recognize an officer and approximately what paygrade they are.

If it's a foreign guy, then yeah you can guess. But our Canadian friends are easy to learn, and at bases where they are common they often have a US Insignia on a pocket or somewhere visible to prevent you from having to guess.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on August 21, 2012, 07:57:15 PM
If it's a foreign guy, then yeah you can guess. But our Canadian friends are easy to learn, and at bases where they are common they often have a US Insignia on a pocket or somewhere visible to prevent you from having to guess.

At SWRSC, there was a contingent of foreign safety officer students on base at the same time, and they usually took lunch at the same time we did. I never saw so many stars and stripes in my life, but fortunately they all wore either a badge with their rank or hard rank pinned to the collar/namebadge of their flight suit. Still very interesting to try and figure out whether or not to salute, generally not since they were mostly lieutenant equivalants.

I've been around since I joined as a cadet in 1975.  I've had a love-hate relationship with CAP, but since 1991, I've been pretty consistent member.  Once you get past the "personalities" you learn that CAP is a pretty great organization.  However, there are a few folks who never had time for the real military nor took the time to become professional and caring through crisis, danger and boredom that the military provides.  Back in the day, from 20 feet away you couldn't tell whether you were looking at an air force member (or air national guardsmen if their uniform was not too sharp) or a member of CAP, because our epaulets were blue.  We all wore CAP on our collars and CAP buttons on our blues.

Somewhere around the late 80s, a CAP colonel required the local Air Force Wing Commander to have a meeting with him.  Still another CAP officer gave an Air Force enlisted a bunch of guff for not saluting her.  The list goes on.  Because of these unprofessional, unhappy members, we have had to endure red epaulets which thankfully became gray.  Bottom line, you need to instruct new cadets to salute, but for everyone else, give'em a book and let them figure it out.  I salute lieutenants, and everybody in between when I walk past them.  If they are enlisted, I greet them.  I wear my uniform the way I did when I was paid to do it, but also because I take great pride in the Air Force uniform because I personally feel it represents America, which I love with all my heart.

The more people see CAP as a friendly place that cares for people, the more people will be attracted to join.  CAP exists to save lives.  I am grateful to be a part of that, and I no longer have a love/hate relationship with CAP.  Get past the fools (thankfully there are only a few) and focus on serving each other and our community.

Great Discussion,

8) Warmly, D2, CAPT, CAP
Med Retired AF SSgt, Flight Management Specialist

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2012, 01:49:38 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2012, 11:00:45 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Thats not a reason to salute. Enlisted soldiers are not saluted. period.

Unless they were awarded the Medal of Honor.

Even that is a matter of custom, not a matter of regulation.

Quote from: JayT on August 24, 2012, 04:01:31 AM

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2012, 01:49:38 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2012, 11:00:45 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Thats not a reason to salute. Enlisted soldiers are not saluted. period.

Unless they were awarded the Medal of Honor.

Even that is a matter of custom, not a matter of regulation.

Oh, I dare you to violate that "custom", you will NOT be happy with the results!

Quote from: PHall on August 25, 2012, 01:37:44 AM

Quote from: JayT on August 24, 2012, 04:01:31 AM

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2012, 01:49:38 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2012, 11:00:45 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Thats not a reason to salute. Enlisted soldiers are not saluted. period.

Unless they were awarded the Medal of Honor.

Even that is a matter of custom, not a matter of regulation.

Oh, I dare you to violate that "custom", you will NOT be happy with the results!

Am I wrong, or not? I didn't say that a MoH reciprocate didn't deserve the honor of a salute, but that it was a matter of custom rather then regulation.

Quote from: JayT on August 25, 2012, 04:20:21 AMAm I wrong, or not? I didn't say that a MoH reciprocate didn't deserve the honor of a salute, but that it was a matter of custom rather then regulation.

What is that? If you have autocorrect on whatever you're posting from, turn it off. If not, learn the proper word. It's recipient.

Quote from: JayT on August 24, 2012, 04:01:31 AM

Quote from: phirons on August 16, 2012, 01:49:38 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2012, 11:00:45 PM

Quote from: KirkF22 on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Because were not being sent over seas to fight the war. They are risking lives, we are saving them.

Thats not a reason to salute. Enlisted soldiers are not saluted. period.

Unless they were awarded the Medal of Honor.

Even that is a matter of custom, not a matter of regulation.

You are correct.  You can read an article in Stars & Stripes by following the link below.
http://www.stripes.com/blogs/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/must-all-troops-salute-medal-of-honor-recipients-1.125849 (http://www.stripes.com/blogs/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/must-all-troops-salute-medal-of-honor-recipients-1.125849)

But here is an excerpt.

Quote
Officially, there is no law or military regulation requiring all servicemembers to salute Medal of Honor recipients, but you are allowed to do so when the recipient is physically wearing the medal, according to the Congressional Medal of Honor Society.

The tradition of saluting recipients comes from an Army tradition of having them take part in military parades, during which they would stand with an officer during the "pass in review," and both would return salutes from commanders as they passed by, according to the society.

And since they probably never wear it outside of formal occasions, you most likely will never risk violating the custom in your daily existence.

Requirements to do things should never be the only reason you do them. I'd personally make my men salute a MOH recipient. It's a matter of respecting someone who deserves it.

Quote from: AngelWings on August 25, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
Requirements to do things should never be the only reason you do them. I'd personally make my men salute a MOH recipient. It's a matter of respecting someone who deserves it.

"Making" your troops salute MOH receipients is a bad idea. And since it's a custom and not a reg you would have nothing to fall back on if you were challanged.

Now explaining the custom to them and letting do it because they want to, that works.

Okay ...we are 8 (count them ... eight) pages into this and we still have people whining about saluting.  You don't want to do...fine..wear a polo shirt. Otherwise if in uniform ...DO IT. 

It won't cause that portion of your anatomy guys , to shrink any smaller.  You're head won't explode, birds will still fly, fish will swim.

Why all the heartache for a SIMPLE gesture of courtesy.

Get over it and yourselves.

Quote from: Lab Lover on August 24, 2012, 03:57:55 AM
Back in the day, from 20 feet away you couldn't tell whether you were looking at an air force member (or air national guardsmen if their uniform was not too sharp) or a member of CAP, because our epaulets were blue.  We all wore CAP on our collars and CAP buttons on our blues.

I came in just after that...my first unit had the blue epaulettes in their storage and one of the first things I learnt was why CAP could no longer wear them.  There was a lot of bitterness that the Air Force was making the whole organisation take a "thank you sir may I have another" (those who have seen Animal House know what I mean) for the actions of a few fools, when it would have been better to have given the bad actors a 2B for it and not punish CAP members who would have never done this.

This order of dress was, dare I say it, a lot more "distinctive" (a meaningless term anyway) than the altered-AF uniform we have now.  "CAP" on the lapels, "CAP" on the blue epaulettes, everyone with CAP blue nameplates, everyone with CAP buttons...the uniform said "CAP" and nothing but "CAP."

If you find it beneath you to salute a MoH recipient when in a CAP uniform and are in my immediate vicinity, I pray for your sake that the good Lord will control my violent reaction to such a transgression.......