PFT For Seniors

[MississippiFlyboy]

The following is an excerpt from the AAR on the KIM family search which illustrates the very real need for SAR personnel to be capable of handling the missions put before them.  CAP should have been involved on this, but there seem to be some political machinations that prevented it.   imagine if we had to have personnel rescued from the search because they were unfit to handle the mission.

Excerpt follows:
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Fitness and Qualification of Resources

One of the issues in this search is that unqualified and/or unfit resources were
used in the field. A specific example of this was using a volunteer resource that
was not equipped with the proper survival gear, clothing, and training to go into a
ravine. The report states this volunteer was wearing cowboy boots and actually
had to be assisted from the search area. In another case, SWAT members
dressed in camouflage clothing were difficult to see by the helicopter pilots who
were lowering them to the ground on a long line.
There are resources available around the state that are trained and equipped for
almost any type of environment. Reaching out to these resources would help
insure the safety of persons involved and prevent the necessity to suspend or
slow down search efforts to rescue the rescuers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Captalk Thread on it here:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1419.0

You can argue about the PFT and Discrimination and "I don't need pushups to do my job", yadda yadda yadda, but here is the real world example of why there need to be standards for ES personnel that work in the field.

[Dragoon]

And using the argument "if it happens even once, we have to be ready" is sadly, BS.

Why's a cop carry a gun? Chances are in 20-30 years he'll never use it. His work is hours & hours of boredom punctuated with fleeting minuites of craziness. Should he train for the hours or the minutes? How is GT any different?

That's  horribly, horribly flawed example.  Using that logic, based on the big AK-4y shootout in California a few years back, why doesn't every cop carry an assault rifle and wear full body armor 24/7  After all, he might need it.

Answer - it doesn't come up often enough to matter - SO IT'S NOT WORTH DOING. Sure when it does come up. The cop with the pistol is sure gonna wish he had an assault rifle handy.  But statistically, it ain't worth it. And the cost, both in time and resources, of outfitting every cop with this level of gun  all day long, is more than the police dept can afford to allocate.

So I ask again - how often do CAP ground teams need to hump 40 pounds all day at a 15 minute pace, or carry a litter a mile to a helo LZ.   

Does it happen often enough to be worth the pain involved in enforcing the standard, or the number of otherwise suitable participants we'd lose. 

We should set the bar high enough to handle the job (quality) but low enough to ensure we have the numbers we need (quantity).

One without the other is a total waste of time. 


Now, if it truly comes down to "do this or lose your money," sure we'll do it.

But it isn't down to that yet.

Not by a long shot.

The sky is not falling.

And in the meantime, realism, not some race to meet a not yet fully implemented standard, should be the guiding principle.

[Dragoon]

The following is an excerpt from the AAR on the KIM family search which illustrates the very real need for SAR personnel to be capable of handling the missions put before them.  CAP should have been involved on this, but there seem to be some political machinations that prevented it.   imagine if we had to have personnel rescued from the search because they were unfit to handle the mission.

Excerpt follows:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fitness and Qualification of Resources

One of the issues in this search is that unqualified and/or unfit resources were
used in the field. A specific example of this was using a volunteer resource that
was not equipped with the proper survival gear, clothing, and training to go into a
ravine. The report states this volunteer was wearing cowboy boots and actually
had to be assisted from the search area. In another case, SWAT members
dressed in camouflage clothing were difficult to see by the helicopter pilots who
were lowering them to the ground on a long line.
There are resources available around the state that are trained and equipped for
almost any type of environment. Reaching out to these resources would help
insure the safety of persons involved and prevent the necessity to suspend or
slow down search efforts to rescue the rescuers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Captalk Thread on it here:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1419.0

You can argue about the PFT and Discrimination and "I don't need pushups to do my job", yadda yadda yadda, but here is the real world example of why there need to be standards for ES personnel that work in the field.

While I agree with your conclusions, the report excerpt you provided doesn't say a durned thing about physical fitness.  It's complaining that some searchers had wrong or inadequate equipment (cowboy boots and camo clothing).

And speaking of camo clothing, yet another reason not to wear USAF uniforms!

[lordmonar]

Again...the issue is not about whether PT should be required for Ground Team.....NIIMS is going to mandate some sort of standard (just which one we will have to wait).

But that is far as it should go.

A CAP wide PT test would increase the administrative burden on the squadrons, will result in a marked loss of members and would not increase our ability to do our missions.

[BillB]

Sure the law enforcement in camouflage were hard to see, because they were not properly equipped search team apperently. CAP on the other hand requires the dayglo vests for all activities in the field. Why is it that people that say CAP should get away from the USAF Cammie uniform always forget that CAP requires the vests? Oh yeah, I remember now, it shoots down their arguement.

[SAR-EMT1]

I would support requiring and in depth physical of GTM's - to prevent the 300 lb SM from having a heart attack.  Or the 90 lb cadet being on a team requiring she carry a 80 lb 72 hr pack etc. -
As for a PT test, I think that GTMs ought to be required to do some physical activity, but Im unsure of what would be acceptable, be it the "Pack Test" or something else.

[MississippiFlyboy]

While I agree with your conclusions, the report excerpt you provided doesn't say a durned thing about physical fitness.  It's complaining that some searchers had wrong or inadequate equipment (cowboy boots and camo clothing).

And speaking of camo clothing, yet another reason not to wear USAF uniforms!

yes it does "Fitness and Qualification of Resources" 

I know that Fitness can mean different things....but how many people do you want to put in rugged backcountry that whine about running a mile?  I think those of us who live in urban areas forget that much of our country is still very remote. And the further west you go the poorer the cell coverage gets outside of populated areas.  taking a self-sustaining team into the rough is still something CAP GT need to train and prepare for.     

I think NIMS has the potential to really further the cause of professional standards for SAR in CAP

[DNall]

Again, not looking to have Sqs in any way involved in the administration. You input your data online, then once a month the system automatically generates a monthly or quarterly score listing as +/- from the standard they are supposed to be at based on age. At that point it can be administered, at that poitn it can be administered autonomously by sending a warning email to the individual & eventually locking them from renewal until a local CC unlocks them based on extenuating circumstances or finally deciding to work out. Or it can be administered by some level above Sq. Good job for a Wg or Gp HSO. The only thing I wanted administratively at Sq is this as a basis for discipplinary non-renewal or temprorary suspension, and some conseling, all at the dsicrestion of the unit CC. It REALLY doesn't have to be that complicated at all.

Plus think about what we do for cadets now. The PFT is the least troublsome administrative item in their whole file.

Far as the point, yeah it'll run off some members that I'm not sure we want in the first place. You're not willing to walk a block a week & put it down in an online log on the honor system? Great committment you're showing there, let me put you in charge of something. People need to be able to do the level of office work that's required of membership, or they don't need to be members.

[Dragoon]

Again, not looking to have Sqs in any way involved in the administration. You input your data online, then once a month the system automatically generates a monthly or quarterly score listing as +/- from the standard they are supposed to be at based on age. At that point it can be administered, at that poitn it can be administered autonomously by sending a warning email to the individual & eventually locking them from renewal until a local CC unlocks them based on extenuating circumstances or finally deciding to work out. Or it can be administered by some level above Sq. Good job for a Wg or Gp HSO. The only thing I wanted administratively at Sq is this as a basis for discipplinary non-renewal or temprorary suspension, and some conseling, all at the dsicrestion of the unit CC. It REALLY doesn't have to be that complicated at all.

Plus think about what we do for cadets now. The PFT is the least troublsome administrative item in their whole file.

Far as the point, yeah it'll run off some members that I'm not sure we want in the first place. You're not willing to walk a block a week & put it down in an online log on the honor system? Great committment you're showing there, let me put you in charge of something. People need to be able to do the level of office work that's required of membership, or they don't need to be members.

"Administration" isn't just paperwork- we're describing "administering the program."  This includes scheduling and executing the test, keeping track of medical waivers, making sure everyone takes it within the time constraints, making sure evalutors are properly trained, setting up make-up tests,  etc.

Using this broader definition, the PFT is most certainly not the least troublesome item in the Cadet Program - it takes a lot of valuable meeting time to give the test.  Plus it may involve transporting cadets to an appropriate place to do the run, giving them a place to change clothes, etc.

And it's this additional workload that folks are justifiably worried about.

Now if the concept is an honor system - if it was that easy (and trustworthy), the real military would have done it years ago.  Self-reported data is always suspect.  If you really want to demand physical fitness, you need to evaluate it like any other mission skill.  Hands on with a trained evaluator.

[Dragoon]

Sure the law enforcement in camouflage were hard to see, because they were not properly equipped search team apperently. CAP on the other hand requires the dayglo vests for all activities in the field. Why is it that people that say CAP should get away from the USAF Cammie uniform always forget that CAP requires the vests? Oh yeah, I remember now, it shoots down their arguement.

Have you ever seen what an orange vest looks like when worn under green load bearing equipment and a brown camelbak?   

[DNall]

"Administration" isn't just paperwork- we're describing "administering the program."  This includes scheduling and executing the test, keeping track of medical waivers, making sure everyone takes it within the time constraints, making sure evalutors are properly trained, setting up make-up tests,  etc.

You talking about ES or PT for seniors in general. Far ES goes, there's no choice in that, and it's no hassle. dopt standards, admin give test, record results just like any other item in the task guide. Now, the general PT for seniors program being discussed, there are NO TESTS!!! It's a self logged health & wellness program that encourages people to stay in good enough shape to do standard office work.

Using this broader definition, the PFT is most certainly not the least troublesome item in the Cadet Program - it takes a lot of valuable meeting time to give the test.  Plus it may involve transporting cadets to an appropriate place to do the run, giving them a place to change clothes, etc.

The cadet PFT has at no point been discussed as a possiblity to put adults thru.

Even so, you must do it under one hour, it can & should be done in under half that, and you have to do it once a month. I haven't had any problems. I schedule it two Sat's a month around outside activities. We do ES training before/after to get them to show up for it.

Now if the concept is an honor system - if it was that easy (and trustworthy), the real military would have done it years ago.  Self-reported data is always suspect.  If you really want to demand physical fitness, you need to evaluate it like any other mission skill.  Hands on with a trained evaluator.

Yes you're right, but remember this is not the ES testing, it is just the general fitness program for all adults, and meant merely to tell them they need to be a degree of fit to serve in any capacity w/ CAP. If they flat out lie, which is pointless cause you don't even have to work out to meet the standards, then it's no different than we have now. However, they'll know they are lying & they'll have this program here telling them this is what's required of them to serve in CAP.

[Dragoon]

Yes you're right, but remember this is not the ES testing, it is just the general fitness program for all adults, and meant merely to tell them they need to be a degree of fit to serve in any capacity w/ CAP. If they flat out lie, which is pointless cause you don't even have to work out to meet the standards, then it's no different than we have now. However, they'll know they are lying & they'll have this program here telling them this is what's required of them to serve in CAP.

How exactly will you know they're lying if you don't test them?

And if you don't test them, why bother?

And if the standard is so easy that anyone can pass, why bother having a standard at all?

Who exactly are you trying to weed out, and how will a self reported fitness rating weed out those folks?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I dont see a big problem with test administration.  I also don't want to get into medical waivers, since that would put more expense on the member.  I also don't want officers kicked out that can't pass the test.

But, I do want the commanders to know who may be at increased risk of illness or injury, and who should not be exposed to physical stress.

That's why I kicked out for discussion some very minimal standards based on walking, lifting, and bending/reaching that an officer would be likely to encounter.  The result of not taking or failing the test would merely be NOT going out of the unit HQ on missions, ES or other types.

Our guys work air shows as aircraft marshallers.  If a guy can't walk a half mile, how can he walk a flight line? 

Even duty as light as being a museum tour guide involves walking, and if you walk the whole museum area to open the doors and turn on the lights, and then are too winded to speak to a group of 40 people and explain the exhibits, you have failed in the mission.  And I really hope you don't have to rush back to the office and get the AED because a guest has collapsed, or the paramedics may have two to transport.

Our physical requirements are low, but they are not non-existent.

[DNall]

How exactly will you know they're lying if you don't test them?

And if you don't test them, why bother?

And if the standard is so easy that anyone can pass, why bother having a standard at all?

Who exactly are you trying to weed out, and how will a self reported fitness rating weed out those folks?

I would have thought by now it would be obvious, but this has nothing to do with weeding anyone out!!!!

You know when a fat guy goes to the doctor, the doc says you need to alter your behavior to be more active & live healthier or you're going to regret it later? Well the doctor doesn't then schedule a once a month PFT to check your progress.

The health & fitness standard to be effective as a CAP officer w/o hampering activities or decreasing efficiency, and baring a medical issue that can reasonably be worked around, are just slightly higher than expectations of a professional in the outside world. That's all people are being asked to meet. I've taken a pace counter with me to the grocery before, and they twice a week si about the over-50 standard.

The practical point of this , besides encouraging good health for our members, is two fold. One, to tell people that being healthy enough to do the job is part of the job; and two, to push this thru at the same time we're asking for update of the ht/wt standards to include BMI (body fat) and a touch more slack in the standard so we can give more people the option of the AF-style uniform.

I do want the commanders to know who may be at increased risk of illness or injury, and who should not be exposed to physical stress.

Our physical requirements are low, but they are not non-existent.

That's true. My idea is that if your PT isn't current, then you can't participate in any weekend or outside Sq activities. And if you do have a medical reason not to do the PT program (just like we make cadets get) then the staff should be aware of that so they know if they can accomodate you reasonablly w/o detracting from the activity.

[Dragoon]

I would have thought by now it would be obvious, but this has nothing to do with weeding anyone out!!!!

Yes you are.  You said:

My idea is that if your PT isn't current, then you can't participate in any weekend or outside Sq activities. And if you do have a medical reason not to do the PT program (just like we make cadets get) then the staff should be aware of that so they know if they can accomodate you reasonablly w/o detracting from the activity.

So you are trying to "week out" folks from participating who don't do the PT.



The only way to make this work is to get commanders involved in assessing fitness.  If it's self reporting, and a guy wants to participate, he's going to "self report" that he's done the PT.  Even if he hasn't.  How exactly does this help?

We do self reporting now.  We tell our members when something is physically taxing, and if they don't think they can handle it, they don't participate.  No muss, no fuss.  And if they have medical conditions, they let us know.  It's been working for years.

The guy who goes beyond his limits is still going to do so with any kind of unpoliced self-reporting system.

If you want to rachet things beyond that, you need a commander's program with a test, so you can catch the folks who aren't meeting the standards.  And that has all the admin overhead issues we've discussed.

[DNall]

So you are trying to "week out" folks from participating who don't do the PT.

Not trying to weed anyone out of the organizatyion. I got no problem at all restricting previledges if you don't do what's required of you. Nothing in CAP, including membership, is a right. But, I'm not trying to throw fat guys out. I'm not trying to throw anyone out. I'm saying if you are stubborn & don't want to do what you're told for the good of the organization, then you don't get to do fun stuff.

The only way to make this work is to get commanders involved in assessing fitness.  If it's self reporting, and a guy wants to participate, he's going to "self report" that he's done the PT.  Even if he hasn't.  How exactly does this help?

We do self reporting now for ES tasks. You go on a mission, come back, log-in, check whichever tasks you want as completed. There's even an integrity statement you have to click past to get to it. You don't think it's dramatically more important to know how to do a task you're certified for than PT, yet self reporting is good enough there.

We do self reporting now.  We tell our members when something is physically taxing, and if they don't think they can handle it, they don't participate.  No muss, no fuss.  And if they have medical conditions, they let us know.  It's been working for years.

Do we really? Sometimes sure, but mostly we don't know till it happens. What I don't like is leaving it on them to decide. People always think they can do something far beyond the point they've become a liability to the job. Far as ES, that's settled so no worries, but every single year we say encampment will be strenuous, and every single year people apply that would have to be sent home. The first encampment I went to actually was to fill in for a SM that couldn't keep up. How much training time is lost, how much are we slowed down, ahow disorganizaed do things become, how much less work gets accomplished.... people need to be able to do the jobs CAP does. There is absolutely muss & fuss - internally as grumbling behind your back & externally when the confidence in us that leads to missions is based on our least common denominator.

The guy who goes beyond his limits is still going to do so with any kind of unpoliced self-reporting system.

If you want to rachet things beyond that, you need a commander's program with a test, so you can catch the folks who aren't meeting the standards.  And that has all the admin overhead issues we've discussed.

Way off in theoretical-ville, I'm not entirely against a test, but I don't think it's necessary. Rememebr we're talking about fitness to be a staff & activity officer, not ES. If someone lies & can't do the job then no one gets killed, we're just less efficient, which is bad, but you do what you can. Most people will do what's required of them when you tell them they have to. The people that won't don't need to be in CAP & if they leave pissed off over this program then that's good for CAP. BUT, that's not the intent of the program, it's just bonus.

[lordmonar]

Not trying to weed anyone out of the organizatyion. I got no problem at all restricting previledges if you don't do what's required of you. Nothing in CAP, including membership, is a right. But, I'm not trying to throw fat guys out. I'm not trying to throw anyone out. I'm saying if you are stubborn & don't want to do what you're told for the good of the organization, then you don't get to do fun stuff.

I guess the problem is that you have not really shown how this is "good for the organisation".  PT requirements for the rank and file members a) has little or no mission imact. b) creates an additional administrative burden on the squadrons. c) Will result in members quiting.

I am not arguing against PT requirments for GT members.  That makes sense and will become a requirment for NIIMS compliance.  But your admin officer who does nothing with cadets and does nothing with ES?

[DNall]

The idea is to set a single standard that's expected of the average officer (excluding ES & ES-training). That means supporting a few wknd activities a year, moving boxes around, doing officer work, able to sit thru 8hr classes.... stuff like that. When I have to stop a class of 30 people cause one person is falling apart from sitting there two hours, that hurts the class. That happened at a SLS here just last month. I can't tell you the number of cadet activities I've moved staff around on mid-activity or sent people home when they just couldn't do the work. That means people that have prepared for a couple months to do a particular job are moved to something else & the quality of the training drops considerably, or we're stuck with no one that can struggle thru the duty & the person can't get it done so we have to drop requirements on the end cause we couldn't deliver the service the students signed on for. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It is indeed possible ot hide out in the back as an admin officer or whatever & never show up to anything but weeknight meetings & do that one little simple task, but that's not what's expected of a CAP officer over the course of their career.

[DrDave]

I know this topic has hit a nerve with many of CAPtalk's members and I'm late to the fray. 

I'm not here to argue either way but want to let all know that we started a voluntary senior member physical fitness program in the Missouri Wing using the "President's Challenge" -- an already established program that's individualized, trackable, and has an already established awards program.

If you're interested in possibly doing this, do check out their website at www.PresidentsChallenge.org, you might like what you see.

In place for about a year now, we have 25 senior members that are participating.

Here's our original announcement:

----------

The Missouri Wing Commander challenges you to "GetMOCAPFit"!
 
Announcing a new voluntary physical fitness program for senior members of
the Missouri Wing. You are invited to join the President's Challenge and
get fit while having fun reaching your goals and competing against other
Missouri Wing senior members for national and Wing awards.
 
The President's Challenge is now in its 50th year and is a series of
programs designed to help improve anyone's activity level, no matter
whether you are a beginner or seasoned athlete. The Active Lifestyle
program is for those just starting out and requires a commitment to be
active only 30 minutes a day at least 5 days a week (60 minutes of
activity for children under 18 ). For those more active, there is the
Presidential Champions program where points are awarded for each activity
you participate in. To learn more about the President's Challenge program
go to their website at www.PresidentsChallenge.org
 
Here's how to register for this free program:
1) Go to www.PresidentsChallenge.org/login/register_individual.aspx
2) Fill out the registration form
3) Use the Missouri Wing Group ID Number (45768 ) and our Group ID/Name
(GetMOCAPfit)
 
After registering, start logging your activities. As you log activities,
you'll be able to track your progress toward winning a President's
Challenge Award or Medal and other Wing awards.
 
It's easy, it's fun, it's free, and it's good for you! You've been
challenged!

----------

Maj. (Dr.) David A. Miller
Assistant Wing Medical Officer
Group II Commander
Missouri Wing

[Dragoon]

We do self reporting now for ES tasks. You go on a mission, come back, log-in, check whichever tasks you want as completed. There's even an integrity statement you have to click past to get to it. You don't think it's dramatically more important to know how to do a task you're certified for than PT, yet self reporting is good enough there.

Not even close to the truth.

The member inputs what task he has been tested on.  Also he types in the CAP ID of the GUY WHO TESTED HIM (in other words, he was tested.  He didn't test himself)

By entering the CAP ID of the test, we've established an audit trail to help handle dishonest members.

But that ain't all

Then, the request for a qual to the ES officer or squadron commander for validation.

The only possible way the ES officer can validate the request is to review the pen and ink SQTR to ensure there are valide entries, and to spot check the member's compliance.  Discuss who he trained with, perhaps call up and tester or two if he has reservations.

It's not a perfect system, but it's not just a matter of "tell me you know how to work a radio and I'll give you a 101 card."



If we were to use the same system for a PT test

1.  There would be a list of valid PT testers.

2.  The member would have to get tested by one of them., not just go out and test himself.

3.  The member would report the test in the database, along with the date and the tester's CAPID.

4.  The Squadron Commander would then be tasked to validate that the entry was correct and that the member was physically fit for duty.


This is a far cry from simple "self reporting"