PFT For Seniors

[ZigZag911]

so basically the low end of the ES spectrum that we'd expect of staff. Which is roughly able to do 8hrs standard office work (sit/stand/mobility/lifting/data-entry/etc).

Actually, I'd think that stringent physical requirements would really apply mainly to GTL/GTM and aircrew.

As far as mission management is concerned (including IC) if you can hold down a 'real world'  full time job, you should be capable of doing a mission staff job.

[DNall]

I didn't make that up, it's from the credentialing standards for type III staff.

Staff: Medical and physical fitness requirements established by the AHJ (Auth Having Jurisdiction - NOT CAP) that include the ability to perform duties under arduous circumstances characterized by working consecutive 12-14 hour days under physical and emotional stress for sustained periods

LINK: http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/im-job-titles.pdf

If I had made it up then I'd agree with you that a standard 8hr office work day, light lifting, occasional stress, yada yada... no problems. And that's basically what I think all members need to do. FEMA wants to make that a little tougher, I can see where they're coming from, and it being that close to the standard I'd want to see for general membership it seems hard not to just combine them.

[ZigZag911]

I didn't make that up, it's from the credentialing standards for type III staff.

Staff: Medical and physical fitness requirements established by the AHJ (Auth Having Jurisdiction - NOT CAP) that include the ability to perform duties under arduous circumstances characterized by working consecutive 12-14 hour days under physical and emotional stress for sustained periods

LINK: http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/im-job-titles.pdf

If I had made it up then I'd agree with you that a standard 8hr office work day, light lifting, occasional stress, yada yada... no problems. And that's basically what I think all members need to do. FEMA wants to make that a little tougher, I can see where they're coming from, and it being that close to the standard I'd want to see for general membership it seems hard not to just combine them.

DNall, i wasn't suggesting you invented it....a lot of people work more than the standard 8 hour day....I do see the reasoning behind FEMA's criteria for mission managment, don't see it excluding a lot of members; some, sure.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Guys:

Please do not get defensive about these suggestions.  I'm a chubby rascal, too.  And I absolutely hated the PT test in the Army.

And I can understand that even Jabba the Hut could make it through a two-hour meeting in most situations.

But our mission is not just to attend meetings.  Our missions are to train cadets, respond to emergencies, and educate others about aerospace issues.  That means that meetings are a tool we use, not the mission itself.

So, would it not be reasonable to create a standard of fitness that would permit a member to walk a medium distance without wheezing?  To climb up stairs to a third-floor classroom?  To walk that medium distance and up those stairs while carrying 10 or 15 pouinds of training aids and handout material?

I'm not seeking to create an elite force of Rangers, but I don't want some guy with the best intentions and desire to serve dropping over at an air show, either.

[RiverAux]

they are going to have to hold a staff position w/ duties at least equiv of office work, which must be maintained for a full shift timeframe.

I've held a whole bunch of CAP staff positions at various levels and I'm not sure I ever recall sitting down and doing work related to any of them for 8 hours straight.

Now, in real life I've held a lot of jobs in government, many of which have quite a few bouts of rigorous activity.  With the exception of one position (and that was an ES-equivalent job), none of these agencies thought a physical test was needed.  These agencies obviously aren't terribly worried about this issue, so I'm not either, and they've been responsible for my health insurance and have a much more vested interest in having me in shape than CAP ever will. 

Just not seeing the return on the investment of time CAP members would have to devote to administering any required program.  Its just surprising to me that this is being promoted by some of the folks who are most adamant about reducing demands on squadron officers' time so that they can focus on the important stuff.   

[Guardrail]

I wonder... does the Coast Guard Auxiliary have a mandatory PFT?

If they do, maybe we can model one after thieirs. 

[RiverAux]

Nope.  There have been occassional discussions as some CG Aux activities can be somewhat physically stressing.  Nothing like CAP GT work, but for older people there could be some concerns. 

If the CG Auxie is augmenting and there is physical requirement associated with the job (such as crewing on one of the small CG motor boats), then they would have to meet them. 

No specific weight requirements for wearing the uniform (which is more or less identical to the CG uniform) either.  Just a vague requirement to present a "military" appearance. 

[CAP428]

Forgive me for being lazy in not wanting to search through four pages of posts to read all the opinions before posting, but...

...what I have read entails senior members complaining explaining about how PT isn't really necessary for senior members, and that people would leave if they were made to do a pushup, but they are currently contributing so much intellectually and through other methods.


Then tell me this...how is that any different from cadets?

Cadets don't have to be in shape.  Heck, you could be the fattest kid ever to walk the planet and still participate in CAP.  But we still encourage physical fitness and excellence by using PT tests.

Senior members really CAN do the same thing.

If you are absolutely set on sitting in a chair, helping yourself to more ding-dongs, and not taking the test, by all means, use the same method our cadets use, get yourself a physical fitness waiver.

You guys ask how you would take into account the 100 year old members who have bone problems, etc....The same way cadets deal with cadets with broken bones, etc.




It's really not that hard to figure out how such a program would be implemented.  My guess is that you just don't like the thought of actually getting out of your chair and exercising.  After all, "PT is for cadets."




P.S. people also mention that physical fitness is only really required for a few jobs in CAP, and that only those should be required to be fit.  Tell me this:  "What "job" do cadets have to be fit for?"  A cadet can spend his entire CAP cadet involvement without ever going on a mission or stepping out of the meeting area.  Yet we still use a PT program in the cadet program.

It really is no different, folks.

[RiverAux]

Before you start calling those of us who don't favor the idea lazy, you might want to consider the fact that most of us hold some sort of ES rating and are probably going to be subjected to much higher standards than any discussed so far here for senior members in general. 

[CAP428]

If you'll go back and actually read my post, you'll see I was calling myself lazy for not reading all four previous pages.

But on to your general idea, you'll also see if you actually read what I wrote, I continuously used non-specific, generic groupings such as "some people" and "others have said"....

...does that sound like a blanket statement that seniors are lazy to you??


Let's go back to 9th grade and start reading for context, not surface-level denotations, eh?

[Major Carrales]

Alright folks...this is getting to be a meshegas.

Simply put, there is not proposal for PT up on any CAP Big Wig's desk or Board for apporval.  Its merely an idea someone has posted here.

My opinion is that if it is required, I will do it.  I could stand to get some organized PT in my life along with that I squeeze in.  If it is optional I will likely do it.

But, I am 30 years old and relatively healthy.  What of the WWII veteran who wants to operate radios or the Korean War veteran that likes teaching cadets or the veteran with no legs who won't be able to participate because of this new requirement?  In the grandiose schemes of PT there are going to have to be allowances made if CAP is to continue because the retired make up our corps.  How many can just drop work to deploy these days? The 20s, 30s and 40s aged people are preoccupied with career, family and life, it takes a lot to deploy for CAP.

It doesn't have to be an argument, just think realistically and a PT program can be developed that will be viable.

[CAP428]

What of the WWII veteran who wants to operate radios or the Korean War veteran that likes teaching cadets or the veteran with no legs who won't be able to participate because of this new requirement?  In the grandiose schemes of PT there are going to have to be allowances made if CAP is to continue because the retired make up our corps.  How many can just drop work to deploy these days? The 20s, 30s and 40s aged people are preoccupied with career, family and life, it takes a lot to deploy for CAP.

What about cadets with a broken foot?  Or those in a wheelchair?

Simple.  They are put in a different physical fitness class.  The exact same could be done for seniors.  There really is no excuse for not having PT for seniors....other than SOME (RiverAux, that is SOME) seniors don't like the idea of actually doing work and so they find it easier to come up with some lame reason why cadets should and they shouldn't.

[Major Carrales]

What of the WWII veteran who wants to operate radios or the Korean War veteran that likes teaching cadets or the veteran with no legs who won't be able to participate because of this new requirement?  In the grandiose schemes of PT there are going to have to be allowances made if CAP is to continue because the retired make up our corps.  How many can just drop work to deploy these days? The 20s, 30s and 40s aged people are preoccupied with career, family and life, it takes a lot to deploy for CAP.

What about cadets with a broken foot?  Or those in a wheelchair?

Simple.  They are put in a different physical fitness class.  The exact same could be done for seniors.  There really is no excuse for not having PT for seniors....other than SOME (RiverAux, that is SOME) seniors don't like the idea of actually doing work and so they find it easier to come up with some lame reason why cadets should and they shouldn't.

Listen, all I am asking for is for people to think realistically.

Many of us are young and vital, others of us are older and drawn to service.  An 85 year old CAP officer who mans a radio, goes out on ELT mission during the day while people work or sits in the back seat as a Mission Scanner or on the aircrew as a Mission Observer does not need to be barred from CAP because they cannot meet some standards that did not even exist in the 1940s not to mention when they joined.

I find it an oddity that people continue to try to design things to exclude people from CAP service.

Plus, if one is going to have standards they need to be absolute.  Thus, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  Drop the various "standards" and have everyone conform to the norm!  Either we as CAP want standards or not.

Simply put, this needs more thinking and debate...

[RiverAux]

But on to your general idea, you'll also see if you actually read what I wrote, I continuously used non-specific, generic groupings such as "some people" and "others have said"....

Yes, and you appeared to be referring to the people on this thread who were responding negatively to the idea, who are the only ones who have heard of it.  No senior member sitting around the squadron eating ding dongs knows a thing about it yet.   

[SarDragon]

Mr 428, I think you'll find that, as you get older, your capacity to maintain the same level of fitness you have/had at age 16 will be greatly diminished. My first wife used to kid me all the time about middle age spread smacking my previously skinny butt really hard at 40. She was right. Admittedly there was a major lifestyle change for me at that age, so it wasn't unexpected.

I was in a Composite Squadron working with cadets until about three years ago. At that time, I could run the mile faster than about half the cadets in the unit. I think it's really sad that an out of shape 55 yo SM can run a mile faster than any cadet.

I suggest that you reevaluate what you've said regarding us olde farts. I think it would be almost impossible to come up with a fair PFT for members over 40. There are too many variables to consider. And, in the long run, I think we'd lose many valuable members if they were required to do any sort of PFT.

[DNall]

Joe, med waivers were stipulated explicitly at the very beginning. Reasonable accommodation is given to the extent it does not detract from the activity, particularly efficiency in operations.

I've held a whole bunch of CAP staff positions at various levels and I'm not sure I ever recall sitting down and doing work related to any of them for 8 hours straight.

SLS/CLC/UCC, most any weekend activity - cadet or ES related would be 8hrs at a higher rate of speed, 12-15 if you're in a leadership position for the event.

Now, in real life I've held a lot of jobs in government, many of which have quite a few bouts of rigorous activity.  With the exception of one position (and that was an ES-equivalent job), none of these agencies thought a physical test was needed.  These agencies obviously aren't terribly worried about this issue, so I'm not either, and they've been responsible for my health insurance and have a much more vested interest in having me in shape than CAP ever will. 

Key difference.... The application you filled out I'll bet said 'capable of moderate lifting (25lbs), long periods of sitting or standing, etc.' That's almost universal on applications, be it a grocery store or govt secretary. You checked that you could do these things & signed (under penalty of law for a govt app), you were then interviewed where the interviewer made a subjective judgment if that answer was BS or not, then were hired & if you'd been unable to do the work you would have been let go. CAP doesn't ask, then if you can't do the job they don't fire you they let the job suffer cause CAP doesn't have standards.

Far as administration, it doesn't have to be complicated. eServices mirror of the pres fit personal activity log, dumps scores monthly/quarterly to a report accessible to HSO & Unit CC. And really, there's no reason it has to be administered by the Sq.

ES standards... there are no waivers & that's as it should be. Most of us have been on a mission at some point where a badly out of shape member has slowed us down. There have been cases where such members required missions to stop so they could be rescued & provided medical attention. That's unacceptable. ALL GTMs need to be able to hike 3-6 miles off trail w/a 40lbs pack at 15min mile pace, provide first aid at the other end, load survivors & haul them a mile or more to a helo LZ. The first rule of rescue is don't become another victim, the second is there are people in field out there bleeding & you need to get to them fast with the capability of doing something about it. You don't set requirements for the 95% of the time that's easy, you train for the 5% that's super hard. You never lower the bar for any reason, and if you think we should, I have to ask about your ethics.

[Dragoon]

ALL GTMs need to be able to hike 3-6 miles off trail w/a 40lbs pack at 15min mile pace, provide first aid at the other end, load survivors & haul them a mile or more to a helo LZ.

That's one opinion, and I think it's a bit much.

How many actual CAP Saves involve a litter carry done by CAP members?  How many of those litter carries were a mile in length?

Does 24 hour gear weigh 40 lbs?  If not, why the requirement?

The distance may be good, but why a 15 minute pace, since the pace of searching is much, MUCH slower?

And using the argument "if it happens even once, we have to be ready" is sadly, BS.  Because if we adopted that attitude, then every Ground Team would include a field surgeon and a mountain rescue specialist "just in case."

No, unless standards are specifically imposed on us (and we'll see how that really plays out), the best answer for us is to analyze our missions (both what we do and what we'd like to do) and then set the bar appropriately to ensure we have adequate assets.

(and just as a point of disclosure, I could meet the standards you state above with one hand tied behind my back.  I just think they're not neccessary.)

[ddelaney103]

Again, it comes back to the mission.

The CP is designed to educate America's youth using a military structure.  As a training environment, the requirements can almost be considered ends in themselves.  Guiding Cadets towards healthy choices in exercise and nutrition is part and parcel of making better citizens.

The Senior program, OTOH, is not a self-help group.  We are recruiting and training members to perform missions.  Some missions require a level of physical capability: if so, we need to test to that level.

Would it be nice to have all of our Officers be "PJ-fit?"  Yes, but not at the expense of the mission.

"Nice to Have" always has to defer to "Need to Have."

[RogueLeader]

Is there any way local unitis could require PT?  Such as a local PD requirement?

[DNall]

Would it be nice to have all of our Officers be "PJ-fit?"  Yes, but not at the expense of the mission.

PJ-fit? Are you serious, did you read the standards written? Sit in a chair working on a computer for 8hrs, walk across the room & lift 15lbs. We're talking about capable of doing staff work & participating in classroom training wekends as student, instructor, or staff/leadership w/o hendering the activity or holding back the people around you. That's a LONG LONG way from PJ-fit!!! What we do right now is lower the standards at the expense of the mission so more people can participate, and that's unacceptable.

ALL GTMs need to be able to hike 3-6 miles off trail w/a 40lbs pack at 15min mile pace, provide first aid at the other end, load survivors & haul them a mile or more to a helo LZ.

That's one opinion, and I think it's a bit much.

Just extrapolating a CAP mission profile from the PFT standards set by FEMA, you don't like it take that up with the experts that just spent the last couple years working on it.

And using the argument "if it happens even once, we have to be ready" is sadly, BS.

Why's a cop carry a gun? Chances are in 20-30 years he'll never use it. His work is hours & hours of boredom punctuated with fleeting minuites of craziness. Should he train for the hours or the minutes? How is GT any different?

DHS is just executing a Presidential order backed up by Congressional action on the money to standardize all responders in the country into skill ratings (credentialing), capability levels (resource typing), & functional together in a unified operating system (ICS). CAP has been trying since the inception to get waivers, exemptions, modifications, etc & been flatly refused. The word is you live up to these standards or you can't be involved. NB has finally agreed, so though we're a little behind in the process & need to catch up, we are getting compliant. Starting probably in FY08 these standards with the PFT will have to be implemented.

No, unless standards are specifically imposed on us (and we'll see how that really plays out), the best answer for us is to analyze our missions (both what we do and what we'd like to do) and then set the bar appropriately to ensure we have adequate assets.

Well, these are the standards set for every other responder in the country. Agencies with missions to give are required to use teams certified by these standards or potentially have all federal funds cut off to them. They can get permission to use such a team, but it's pulling teeth from a cabinet member to do it. NB has voted to comply, and this is all goign to be quite mandatory in the near future.

That said, these are the standards for teh missions we really do & those we'd like to do. You're not required to use all thsoe skills or physical ability 95% of the time, but standards are set fo the 5%.