Getting my CAP records back from former squadron CC

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would like some advice on how to get my records from my squadron CC.

I've never been in the position before of having such an adversarial "relationship" with a CC, so any help would be appreciated.

I've copied the redacted text of a letter I've composed to send him by Certified Mail with return receipt.

Major ****** * ******
*** ************ ***
**********, ** *****-****

13 November, 2015

Dear Major ******:

Let this letter serve as a formal request for you to turn over all of my CAP records to me.

There are several ways that you may do this:

1. U.S. Certified Mail with return receipt.

2. Meet me in a neutral location to turn them over to me personally.  It would be disruptive for me to come to the Squadron meeting site to get them.  However, given your past refusal to meet with me in person while still a member of the unit to discuss the issues we had, I doubt you will want to do this.  But, who knows?

3. Have another Squadron member that you designate meet me at a neutral location to do same.

I have no desire for any quarrel with you.  In fact, I wish that things could have been different between us and that I could have remained a member of the Squadron and of CAP in general.  In fact, I would still be open to such dialogue but I fear that the point of no return for that has passed.

Therefore, I wish for my records to be returned to me as soon as possible, with as little rancour as possible.

Sincerely,



***** *****

[Lord of the North]

Just a few comments.  First the records you are seeking are not your property.  They are records which belong to the organization, CAP.  You do have the right to request a copy of these records as explained in CAPR 39-2 as shown below.
1-8. Inactive Records. Members who transfer, resign, retire or fail to renew may request their membership records from the unit. The unit should keep a copy of the former member's personnel record in the inactive file. Members whose membership is not renewed or terminated may request a copy of their membership records from the unit; however, the unit will retain the official records. Records not requested by former members will be removed from the unit's active file and arranged alphabetically in an inactive file. The unit is required to maintain records of former members for 5 years unless otherwise directed by Personnel and Member Actions (NHQ/DP). If not requested after the 5th year, records will be destroyed.
Good luck with your request.

[LSThiker]

Your letter is confrontational.  Make it more neutral.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

OK, I didn't know that, partly because whenever I've left/transferred before, it has been on reasonably good terms (with one exception) and the CC has been good enough to just hand over my tattered pink Form 45.

In this case, however, given the bad blood that sorrowfully exists between the CC and I (which I never wanted), I had no idea how to approach it in a fairly respectful manner.

I know that I do not want to go to the Squadron site itself, because my presence would disrupt the unit's activities and I have no desire to do that.

As well, even though I am not subject to CAP discipline any more, I wanted to at least extend him some form of basic human courtesy by emphasising that I didn't want any kind of confrontational act.

But thanks, at least you gave me a framework to operate within.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Your letter is confrontational.  Make it more neutral.

I assume you refer to the line about refusing to meet with me while I was still a member.  That is not confrontational.  It happened and would probably be even worse now.  I don't want that to happen.

I did try to make it neutral...I could have made it a lot worse but I explicitly tried to avoid that.

This really is uncharted territory for me.  The only other time I left with any kind of "bad blood" (which was nowhere near this level of aggro) the unit Admin officer (whom I trained) met with me and turned my records over to me.  I also typed up a signed note saying I had received them, to try and tie up any kind of loose ends.

[LSThiker]

Your letter is confrontational.  Make it more neutral.

I assume you refer to the line about refusing to meet with me while I was still a member.  That is not confrontational.  It happened and would probably be even worse now.  I don't want that to happen.

I did try to make it neutral...I could have made it a lot worse but I explicitly tried to avoid that.

No not just that line, the whole letter.

Simply state the request without any of the extra "information".  What I mean by this:

"However, given your past refusal to meet with me in person while still a member of the unit to discuss the issues we had, I doubt you will want to do this.  But, who knows?"

--Not necessary to state

"Have another Squadron member that you designate meet me at a neutral location to do same."

--Simply state "Arrange a meeting between yourself, or if warranted a designee,"

"I have no desire for any quarrel with you.  In fact, I wish that things could have been different between us and that I could have remained a member of the Squadron and of CAP in general.  In fact, I would still be open to such dialogue but I fear that the point of no return for that has passed."

--Not necessary as this is a formal request, not a personal communication.

"Therefore, I wish for my records to be returned to me as soon as possible, with as little rancour as possible."

--This goes without saying.

Rather than finishing on that, suggest a date and a time to either meet or discuss this further.

Also, include a copy of the regulation in the letter.  Send the letter to the commander and his/her boss.  Present a professional request.  If the commander refuses, it makes you look in the better light and your commander in the bad light.

[lordmonar]

How about

"Can you please send me a copy of my records?"

Send a cc to the wing PO so if you get no joy you can start making a pain of yourself and you are letting wing know what's going on.   

Offer to pay for shipping offer to pay for copy service.  Even offer to get it copied and return the originals. 

No need to say you don't want a fight.   Professionals should not have to do that.  No need to threaten to go to higher headquarters, that is already assumed. 

Good luck. 

[SarDragon]

Check out the bolded parts. IMHO, they are all confrontational or hostile, all or in part.

Let this letter serve as a formal request for you to turn over all of my CAP records to me.

There are several ways that you may do this:

1. U.S. Certified Mail with return receipt.

2. Meet me in a neutral location to turn them over to me personally.  It would be disruptive for me to come to the Squadron meeting site to get them.  However, given your past refusal to meet with me in person while still a member of the unit to discuss the issues we had, I doubt you will want to do this.  But, who knows?

3. Have another Squadron member that you designate meet me at a neutral location to do same.

I have no desire for any quarrel with you.  In fact, I wish that things could have been different between us and that I could have remained a member of the Squadron and of CAP in general.  In fact, I would still be open to such dialogue but I fear that the point of no return for that has passed.

Therefore, I wish for my records to be returned to me as soon as possible, with as little rancour rancor possible.

This first one should read - This may be done in several ways. The "you" indicates that you are telling him what to do, not merely offering options. When having unfriendly conversations, avoid using "you". It's a subconscious hot button, and can be interpreted as finger-pointing.

The second one is bringing up prior hostilities, setting the tone for further belligerence.

Number three - same tune, different words.

And number four - twisting the knife again.

If someone sent me this letter, I would be inclined to just bin it, or, at best, send a short NFW note back, and be done with it.

Since your membership has lapsed, taking this to group, presuming you have one, or wing, is possible, but more difficult, and may or may not achieve the desired result.

[Capt Thompson]

You could, of course, renew your membership and find another squadron, then let the PO of the new Squadron request your paperwork. You could also renew and transfer to the inactive Squadron until you decide what you want to do, in which case your files would be sent to Wing for safe keeping. Just a thought.

If you do send a letter, I agree with the others, keep is short and to the point and professional. Attach a copy of the reg, CC it to the next higher headquarters, and notate in the letter that it was CC'd to the next higher headquarters. All of the other stuff makes it look like you're asking for a fight, even though you stated several times (unnecessarily) that you're not.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Believe me, I have given ALL suggestions here a lot of thought.  As I said, this is uncharted territory for me and I based my letter on his past behaviour toward me.  I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt...UNTIL someone attempts to bully or shaft me.

I admit that I cannot be completely objective and detached from this as I would like...which is why I asked for former CAP colleagues' input.

"However, given your past refusal to meet with me in person while still a member of the unit to discuss the issues we had, I doubt you will want to do this.  But, who knows?"
Not necessary to state

My motivation for putting that in was when I was still a member, I made several overtures to him to sit down and discuss our issues face-to-face.  He refused...the only time in my long CAP career that a CC has ever done that to me.  I was stunned.  The purpose of that sentence was to let him know I still remembered that but he could well have changed his mind now that some water has gone over the dam.

"Therefore, I wish for my records to be returned to me as soon as possible, with as little rancour as possible."

--This goes without saying.

In 99% of circumstances, I would agree.  However, this man's behaviour still honestly perplexes me and I added that sentence to say that I just want it to be done and over with, without any further ag.  I could easily envision him berating me in person, which I do not want and which I would not take.  My ideal situation would be for him/his designee to just say "here are your records."  I would say "thank you," and that would be the end of it, case closed, finis.

Rather than finishing on that, suggest a date and a time to either meet or discuss this further.

Again I would agree, but given his refusal to meet with me while still under his command, and how that still perplexes me, I would consider his wanting to discuss anything with me to be most unlikely.

Also, include a copy of the regulation in the letter.  Send the letter to the commander and his/her boss.  Present a professional request.  If the commander refuses, it makes you look in the better light and your commander in the bad light.

Sending the regulation is indeed a good idea and fits with my past Admin experience.  However, there is nothing in the regs saying he has to honour it, especially given I am no longer a member.

Thank you for your assistance and suggestion.

How about "Can you please send me a copy of my records?"

That I can accept - short and simple.

Send a cc to the wing PO so if you get no joy you can start making a pain of yourself and you are letting wing know what's going on.   

Mixed reactions to that.

First of all, I need no assistance in making a pain of myself...that's just kind of part of me when my back's to the wall or I perceive I'm getting fed Bravo Sierra.  I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is a part of me.

I do not know, but I doubt, that anyone at Wing would be inclined to help me...as most of you know, when I was a member, very few at Wing even knew who I was, and I believe they would be less motivated now that I am no longer a member.  I could be wrong about that but that is my gut instinct.

Offer to pay for shipping offer to pay for copy service.  Even offer to get it copied and return the originals. 

Non-concur.  I'm on a fixed income and this guy is some sort of Mr Wizard with more income in a month than I've probably ever seen in my life.

No need to say you don't want a fight.   Professionals should not have to do that. 

Correct.  However, this person is not terribly professional; at least he hasn't been to me.  The Group Commander even acknowledged that.

No need to threaten to go to higher headquarters, that is already assumed. 

Did I make such a threat?  It didn't enter my mind, simply because I doubt higher headquarters would care.  Anyway, I don't make threats...my dad taught me growing up "don't threaten to do something you're not prepared to follow through on, because someone may well call you on it."

Good luck. 

And thank you for your insight and suggestion.

Check out the bolded parts. IMHO, they are all confrontational or hostile, all or in part.

I don't dispute what you are saying...they weren't intended to be, but I cannot deny the anger and confusion I still have toward the situation, which prevents me from being as objective as I should be.  I don't always view "confrontational" as a bad thing; it's saved my LIFE a few times.

This first one should read - This may be done in several ways. The "you" indicates that you are telling him what to do, not merely offering options. When having unfriendly conversations, avoid using "you". It's a subconscious hot button, and can be interpreted as finger-pointing.

I know all about "you" and "I" statements from my university psychology courses and in most cases I would agree.

I sincerely was offering him options that would give him an "out" on having to see this person that for some reason he loathes so badly.

The second one is bringing up prior hostilities, setting the tone for further belligerence.

Again, I don't deny that there was anger, but mostly confusion, on my part on him refusing to meet with me.

And number four - twisting the knife again.

Except in this case I was not the one who first planted the knife...but again, point taken.

If someone sent me this letter, I would be inclined to just bin it, or, at best, send a short NFW note back, and be done with it.

And both you and he well might.  Normally, in the vast majority of cases, I would be more cordial and respectful.  However, in this case I have no respect for a person in a position of command who refused to meet with a subordinate, and now since he has no power of command over me, I honestly doubt he would have the intestinal fortitude FOR a face-to-face meeting, which is why I gave him other options.

Since your membership has lapsed, taking this to group, presuming you have one, or wing, is possible, but more difficult, and may or may not achieve the desired result.

Wing would probably be thoroughly ineffective.

Group might be an option, since I did have a fairly cordial relationship with both the Group Commander and Deputy Commander.  However, I honestly do not know how much they could do.

Thank you as well for your insights.

You could, of course, renew your membership and find another squadron, then let the PO of the new Squadron request your paperwork. You could also renew and transfer to the inactive Squadron until you decide what you want to do, in which case your files would be sent to Wing for safe keeping. Just a thought.

Another squadron would not be an option, because there are none within reasonable driving distance.   Financially, and with an old 1997 car, I cannot make a 50-mile drive every week, especially with winter coming up here in the Frozen North.

I did actually think of the inactive squadron option.  I may give that some more thought.

If you do send a letter, I agree with the others, keep is short and to the point and professional. Attach a copy of the reg, CC it to the next higher headquarters, and notate in the letter that it was CC'd to the next higher headquarters. All of the other stuff makes it look like you're asking for a fight, even though you stated several times (unnecessarily) that you're not.

I can see how it could come across that way, though on the (extremely rare) occasions I HAVE looked for a fight, I say so.  I don't hide things between the lines, at least not intentionally.  If I say I'm going to kick your arse (though I haven't said that since I was a kid), that's exactly how I put it.

Your point is food for thought.

ALL of you who have answered this admittedly-troublesome former member, and have done it without sarcasm or insult (veiled or open) have been a shot in the arm for me.  I will definitely revamp the letter and post the new one for further insight.

[ZigZag911]

One more thought: have you discussed your issues with an IG, chaplain or the next echelon CC?

If not, might be worth considering.

[lordmonar]

One more thought: have you discussed your issues with an IG, chaplain or the next echelon CC?

If not, might be worth considering.

Unfortunately.....as a non-member he has no standing towards the IG.

Having said that....really it should be as simple as "can I get a copy of my records" and then if no joy an E-mail to the wing "They won't give me a copy of my records".

Bad blood happens.   That's life.   But we can try to keep it professional. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Major ****** * ******
*** ************
**********, ** *****-****

13 November, 2015

Dear Major ******:

IAW CAPR 39-2, let this letter serve as a formal request for you to turn over all of my CAP records to me.

My preferences are as follows:

1. U.S. Certified Mail with return receipt.

2. Meet me in a neutral location to turn them over to me personally.  I believe it would be disruptive for me to come to the Squadron meeting site to get them.

3. Have another Squadron member that you designate meet me at a neutral location to do same.

In the cases of options 2 and 3, I will give you or your representative a signed receipt indicating that I have received the records.

*****, I honestly wish things could have been different and that I could still be a member of both the unit and CAP.

Sincerely,



***** ******

CC: Lt Col ****** *****, CC Group ***

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

One more thought: have you discussed your issues with an IG, chaplain or the next echelon CC?

If not, might be worth considering.

Sergeant Harris is right - as a nonmember I have no legal standing within the CAP.

I have never trusted the IG process; I used it once before and it got turned on me.

My unit did not have a Chaplain and there were very few at Wing - none of which I knew.

Thank you anyway.

[Capt Thompson]

IAW CAPR 39-2, let this letter serve as a formal request for you to turn over all of my CAP records to me.

IAW CAPR 39-2, let this letter serve as a formal request for a copy of my CAP records.

Slightly less confrontational, and again, he's under no obligation to "turn over all of your records" but is obliged to give you copies.

Other than that one sentence, I see nothing wrong with the letter. As one other person suggested in the other thread, maybe have an option 4, where you agree to have them copied at your expense and then return them.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

[PHall]

Dump that last sentence. Bringing up past issues will not help you here.

[JeffDG]

No sense making 2 and 3 separate.

2. I can meet you or your designee to collect the records personally.

[Garibaldi]

Dear Major __________,

Please provide me with a copy of my Civil Air Patrol files. I will meet either with you or your appointed designee at an off-site location, or you may mail them to me at my address of record.

Sincerely,

________________

In a nutshell, that's all that really needs to be said.

[PHall]

Dear Major __________,

Please provide me with a copy of my Civil Air Patrol files. I will meet either with you or your appointed designee at an off-site location, or you may mail them to me at my address of record.

Sincerely,

________________

In a nutshell, that's all that really needs to be said.

+1

Short, sweet and to the point.

[CAPAPRN]

What PHall said. Don't get my dander up, or I might feel I have to get IG guidance, and there is no time frame in the regulation for complying with your request. The regulations are like the Force in Star Wars- they can be used for Good, or for the Dark Side.