The Need for the Chaplaincy

[arajca]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

Professional - Folks who do CISM on a regular basis. Paid/volunteer is irrelevent, however, the best CISM teams I have worked with are made up of paid fire/ems/law professionals with CISM training who do CISM on a volunteer basis.

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

[Eclipse]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

+1 Huge problem.

Properly trained and prepared people, volunteer or professional, will be prepared and capable of dealing with death, injury, and graphic
scenes.  That doesn't make it easy, or insinuate some won't struggle, but it does mean that they probably will have the tools to
deal with it differently then someone off the street being confronted by a situation they are neither trained nor prepared for.

The average mental health professional, or trained well-meaning volunteer, has no frame of reference for "normal" in these cases.

"CISM in a 6-pack", i.e. talk around the fire between people with similar, relevent experience, is much more effective then a
force 15 minutes debrief about "feelings" after a long day in the field.

[Panache]

Since then, 'pay to play' has meant no CISM training for me but, more importantly, I've been persuaded to leave it alone.  That persuasion was done by a former CAP Chaplain who had trained in CISM and who deals with this type of activity in his non-CAP ministry.  This is not for the untrained, enthusiastic amateur.  There is *no way* that I would have allowed the enthusiastic young CAP SM I met in my CAP travels, who was CISM trained in his paying job (allegedly), come anywhere near me. 

I'm curious what the Chaplain told you that persuaded you to stay away from CISM.

[Mitchell 1969]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

I went through training as a CISM debriefer when I was a police captain. One of my "things" was to visit other departments to convince chiefs and other command officers that CISM was a better option than the old fashioned bottle and smokes cure. I was asked to do this because the mental health folks realized that they couldn't sell it from their perspective. While the fire service had bought into it, law enforcement was not convinced and would not be convinced by anyone outside of that profession.

I was happy to be that guy because I believed in the concept. I believed in it because I was around long enough to have seen the outcome of not doing CISM vs doing CISM.

However....what I dealt with was a system where public safety people with experience in public safety critical incidents were trained to do the debriefings in partnership with mental health professionals. In other words, it was peer based. That was the only way to sell it and, in my opinion, the only way to make it effective.

[Mitchell 1969]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

Professional - Folks who do CISM on a regular basis. Paid/volunteer is irrelevent, however, the best CISM teams I have worked with are made up of paid fire/ems/law professionals with CISM training who do CISM on a volunteer basis.

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

Your first paragraph describes how it is supposed to be done. Your second paragraph describes a dismal failure reflecting a deviation from the way it is supposed to be done.

[SunDog]

I think chaplains are good luck. I like seeing them on the flight line, especially. Weirdly enough, I don't have religion. My very limited dealings with them, USAF and CAP, were positive. One did most certainly save a buddy from a gruesome end. If a chaplain isn't a CISM expert, he /she likely knows where to find that help.

Need? I dunno. . .probably at least as useful as half the ICP positions we make so much of, and actually use somseldom. Do chaplains oten wear another hat in CAP? Do other duties, as well? Reverend-Major MP?

[Brit_in_CAP]

Since then, 'pay to play' has meant no CISM training for me but, more importantly, I've been persuaded to leave it alone.  That persuasion was done by a former CAP Chaplain who had trained in CISM and who deals with this type of activity in his non-CAP ministry.  This is not for the untrained, enthusiastic amateur.  There is *no way* that I would have allowed the enthusiastic young CAP SM I met in my CAP travels, who was CISM trained in his paying job (allegedly), come anywhere near me. 

I'm curious what the Chaplain told you that persuaded you to stay away from CISM.

I'll happily share it, once I locate the email and redact a few names from the text.  There's nothing *bad* in the email, its simply that I won't quote other people's names without their permission. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think chaplains are good luck. I like seeing them on the flight line, especially. Weirdly enough, I don't have religion. My very limited dealings with them, USAF and CAP, were positive. One did most certainly save a buddy from a gruesome end. If a chaplain isn't a CISM expert, he /she likely knows where to find that help.

Need? I dunno. . .probably at least as useful as half the ICP positions we make so much of, and actually use somseldom. Do chaplains oten wear another hat in CAP? Do other duties, as well? Reverend-Major MP?

An AFRES Chaplain (Evangelical Lutheran Church In America) once told me that among his most basic but most fulfilling duties was bringing hot coffee to those on the flight line at Minot AFB in the middle of winter.

[JayT]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

As a paramedic with a degree in psychology, I firmly believe that unless it happens to you, you have no idea what it's like. I would never seek CISM help unless the team was another career paramedic. PD, Suppression, in hospital staff all have a equal but separate set of stresses that aren't completely matched up to mine. There's  some studies that CISD works with guys on the job, but there's also been meta analysis of studies on CISD that show they may actually do more harm then good. Personally, I find a cup of coffee and a few truly morbid and disturbing jokes after a bad run with my crew is the most healthy way of dealing with job related trauma.

[Private Investigator]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

As a paramedic with a degree in psychology, I firmly believe that unless it happens to you, you have no idea what it's like. I would never seek CISM help unless the team was another career paramedic. PD, Suppression, in hospital staff all have a equal but separate set of stresses that aren't completely matched up to mine. There's  some studies that CISD works with guys on the job, but there's also been meta analysis of studies on CISD that show they may actually do more harm then good. Personally, I find a cup of coffee and a few truly morbid and disturbing jokes after a bad run with my crew is the most healthy way of dealing with job related trauma.

Good points but what works for you may not work for a team member.

Marcus Luttrell (Lone Survivor) did 8 years in the Navy. The SEAL who did the kill shot on bin Laden did 16 years. I use to be the guy who thought that if you were trained elite military, police, fire or paramedic you can do 20+ years easily. But today I know what one person sees as just part of the job, another may see totally different. So mental health needs to take multiple approaches. Also people could be in a different place, i.e. "The seven stages of grief". I could be at stage #7 and my partner could still be stuck at stage #1.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

As a paramedic with a degree in psychology, I firmly believe that unless it happens to you, you have no idea what it's like. I would never seek CISM help unless the team was another career paramedic. PD, Suppression, in hospital staff all have a equal but separate set of stresses that aren't completely matched up to mine. There's  some studies that CISD works with guys on the job, but there's also been meta analysis of studies on CISD that show they may actually do more harm then good. Personally, I find a cup of coffee and a few truly morbid and disturbing jokes after a bad run with my crew is the most healthy way of dealing with job related trauma.

Good points but what works for you may not work for a team member.

Marcus Luttrell (Lone Survivor) did 8 years in the Navy. The SEAL who did the kill shot on bin Laden did 16 years. I use to be the guy who thought that if you were trained elite military, police, fire or paramedic you can do 20+ years easily. But today I know what one person sees as just part of the job, another may see totally different. So mental health needs to take multiple approaches. Also people could be in a different place, i.e. "The seven stages of grief". I could be at stage #7 and my partner could still be stuck at stage #1.

Two excellent points that CAP needs to deal with:

Mental health needs to take multiple approaches.

People could be in a different places.   

I think (personally and YMMV) that we as an organization would do well to develop skills in counseling techniques that aren't as cumbersome / intrusive / hard-to-gain-skills-in  as CISM, which certainly has its place.
Just a thought.

[Brit_in_CAP]

OK...just a thought here....this started as a thread about the need for Chaplaincy and we've ended up taking CISM?!   

Happens a lot - there's another thread from 2007 similar to this one - but CISM isn't owned by the Chaplain Branch, they're simply part of the team.   

Did we answer the original question 

[Eclipse]

This is one of the issues with the way both programs are executed today, an assumption
that CDI, Chaplain, and CISM programs are somehow inter-related.

They aren't, but because the same people are involved in many case, they become so in a lot
of member's minds.

And that's where many of the issues start - when well meaning Chaplains introduce their
religious doctrine, whether intentionally or otherwise, into the CDI and CISM programs.

[arajca]

Is there a "need" for the Chaplaincy program? Sorry, folks, I don't see it.

There are those who would argue that since the military has a chaplaincy, CAP needs one, however, the circumstances between CAP and military personnel are hugely different. Most CAP members that are active in religion, have a regular church or denomination they are part of in their local area. In the military, you may not have one in the local community, especially if you're deployed overseas.

While CAP does offer religious services at some activities, usually generic, non-denominational services, I have also seen some that simply allocate time and offer a list of local church that hold services around that time frame. If you chose not to go to the services, you have extra time to sleep, relax, read, etc.

As for the relationship between CDI and Chaplaincy programs, CDI was called Moral Leadership Officer and one requirement was an endorsement from your local church. There was an appearance that if you weren't religiously active, you weren't considered as having good morals and should not providing moral guidance to cadets, hence the change to Character Development Instructor. The Character Development falls under the Chaplain program for rules and materials.

[Brit_in_CAP]

This is one of the issues with the way both programs are executed today, an assumption
that CDI, Chaplain, and CISM programs are somehow inter-related.

They aren't, but because the same people are involved in many case, they become so in a lot
of member's minds.

And that's where many of the issues start - when well meaning Chaplains introduce their
religious doctrine, whether intentionally or otherwise, into the CDI and CISM programs.

:clap: :clap:  Well put...and I'm a supporter of the Chaplain Corps!

[Brit_in_CAP]

There are those who would argue that since the military has a chaplaincy, CAP needs one, however, the circumstances between CAP and military personnel are hugely different. Most CAP members that are active in religion, have a regular church or denomination they are part of in their local area. In the military, you may not have one in the local community, especially if you're deployed overseas.

All true.  CAP does not *need* a Chaplain Corps, it *wants* one.

While CAP does offer religious services at some activities, usually generic, non-denominational services, I have also seen some that simply allocate time and offer a list of local church that hold services around that time frame. If you chose not to go to the services, you have extra time to sleep, relax, read, etc.

Again, true and quite reasonable.  The facility is offered and the choice is yours.  It was like that for my daughter at Cape May but it was a different story at Parris island for our son.  For CAP I think that's a fair model.

As for the relationship between CDI and Chaplaincy programs, CDI was called Moral Leadership Officer and one requirement was an endorsement from your local church. There was an appearance that if you weren't religiously active, you weren't considered as having good morals and should not providing moral guidance to cadets, hence the change to Character Development Instructor. The Character Development falls under the Chaplain program for rules and materials.

It is hubris to assume that sound morals are *automatically* linked to one's religious observance or the lack thereof.  I've met and worked with atheists with sound morals and long time ministers who were a disgrace.

That said, the CDI specialty works well for people like me who are 'lay minsters' in their denomination, want to take that into a new dimension but are excluded from being Chaplains (lack of ordination usually).  I have no issue with the program being supervised by the Chaplains and I'd stick with it even if it wasn't.  I add value to the lives of my cadets and to some of the Senior Members; my church takes an interest in what I do and is properly supportive.  I'm very fortunate.

I personally have yet to encounter a CDI who wasn't originally endorsed by their church in some form.  Actually, to be honest with you all, I've yet to actually meet in person another CDI in my Wing....

I feel a new thread coming on...

In the end, and coming from a (associate) member of the Chaplain Branch: CAP does not *need* a Chaplain Corps, it *wants* one.   I'd still hate to see the organization without chaplains in some form but I'm am not convinced that modeling on the AF is a sound model for us.

[Eclipse]

All true.  CAP does not *need* a Chaplain Corps, it *wants* one.

Bang. 

[Private Investigator]

OK...just a thought here....this started as a thread about the need for Chaplaincy and we've ended up taking CISM?!   

Happens a lot - there's another thread from 2007 similar to this one - but CISM isn't owned by the Chaplain Branch, they're simply part of the team.   

Did we answer the original question 

I thought we did