CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: Stonewall on August 09, 2020, 06:35:13 PM

Title: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Stonewall on August 09, 2020, 06:35:13 PM
(http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3896.0;attach=3020;image)

Remember like 13 years ago, when I suggested this idea (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0) for a permanent and exclusive utility uniform for CAP.

Those were the days.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: kcebnaes on August 09, 2020, 09:01:01 PM
I dig it, and it's still a good option.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: exarmyguard on August 10, 2020, 11:29:42 AM
Cool idea. It would be nice if there was just one uniform to worry about. It would be cheaper too.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Hawk200 on August 10, 2020, 11:53:09 AM
Reminds me of the old jungle fatigues. I had a set for CAP.

Wouldn't mind seeing those with ACU accessories (undershirt, belt, boots, socks, fleece). Would be a little more across the board uniformity.

Alternately, I would mind seeing a coyote color ACU type uniform with the accessories mentioned above. The color tones would be more uniform.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Stonewall on August 10, 2020, 01:21:55 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 10, 2020, 11:53:09 AMReminds me of the old jungle fatigues. I had a set for CAP.

I would agree, they were the best, during that weird time between fatigues (pickle suits) and BDUs. Maybe a year or so?

(https://app.box.com/shared/static/takkii50uomj8etl66ol10rghi3id0mo.jpg)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: GroundHawg on August 10, 2020, 02:07:48 PM
This is my favorite uniform that CAP has never worn.

Even if they were to switch to this cut of top in blue for the BBDU's I would be excited.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Stonewall on August 10, 2020, 02:55:10 PM
I started this thread from my phone and didn't realize the image of "my idea" was so small.

Here's the adult sized version...

(https://app.box.com/shared/static/jh03qijuvaff7ypuhowzj6ndv3aw3iyk.jpg)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SARDOC on August 10, 2020, 08:30:34 PM
This would be a great option.  I'd like just one utility uniform that we could and would all wear.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on August 11, 2020, 12:03:30 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 10, 2020, 08:30:34 PMI'd like just one utility uniform that we could and would all wear.

Huge numbers at events I go to agree on the polo, but yes, there are a few that still want the military look.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Stonewall on August 11, 2020, 12:16:02 AM
Quote from: etodd on August 11, 2020, 12:03:30 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 10, 2020, 08:30:34 PMI'd like just one utility uniform that we could and would all wear.

Huge numbers at events I go to agree on the polo, but yes, there are a few that still want the military look.

Just a few huh?

I bet you're a joy to be around in CAP.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on August 11, 2020, 02:51:01 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on August 11, 2020, 12:16:02 AMI bet you're a joy to be around in CAP.


Actually, yes.  We have fun, we laugh, we get the job done.  People serve in different ways. Its all good. :)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Paul Creed III on August 11, 2020, 11:48:16 AM
Let's leave the personal attacks at the door or the thread will be locked.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: GroundHawg on August 11, 2020, 03:08:16 PM
Quote from: etodd on August 11, 2020, 12:03:30 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 10, 2020, 08:30:34 PMI'd like just one utility uniform that we could and would all wear.

Huge numbers at events I go to agree on the polo, but yes, there are a few that still want the military look.

Would you still go to on a mission or attend an event where the polo combo was not included in the UOD?
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 11, 2020, 06:15:48 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on August 11, 2020, 03:08:16 PM
Quote from: etodd on August 11, 2020, 12:03:30 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 10, 2020, 08:30:34 PMI'd like just one utility uniform that we could and would all wear.

Huge numbers at events I go to agree on the polo, but yes, there are a few that still want the military look.

Would you still go to on a mission or attend an event where the polo combo was not included in the UOD?

Maybe a better question is... CAN you go on a mission or attend an event where the polo combo was not included in the UOD? Meaning do you possess a Field/Working Uniform besides the Polo Combo.
Title: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Jester on August 11, 2020, 06:57:17 PM
I've really been liking the dark blue utilities worn by the ground crews for the various AF flight demo teams.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200811/37c94f34297ffafde569c223e71a1ce8.jpg)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on August 11, 2020, 06:59:08 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2020, 06:15:48 PMMaybe a better question is... CAN you go on a mission or attend an event where the polo combo was not included in the UOD? Meaning do you possess a Field/Working Uniform besides the Polo Combo.

Yes. Five years ago when I first joined I purchased the "required" items. Also ordered the polo. Started wearing the polo, and in five years have never been to a SAREX or mission where the polo was not included as UOD. So yes, the required uniform is still wrapped in plastic to keep the shirt nice and white, such that if its ever needed, I can pull it out. I'm ready.  LOL

I know all this varies by Wing and even squadrons. Some don't like the polo very much. Others you see the polo more often than not.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Hawk200 on August 11, 2020, 07:31:37 PM
Quote from: Jester on August 11, 2020, 06:57:17 PMI've really been liking the dark blue utilities worn by the ground crews for the various AF flight demo teams.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200811/37c94f34297ffafde569c223e71a1ce8.jpg)

Those look like they would be HOT!

Nice though.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: etodd on August 11, 2020, 06:59:08 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2020, 06:15:48 PMMaybe a better question is... CAN you go on a mission or attend an event where the polo combo was not included in the UOD? Meaning do you possess a Field/Working Uniform besides the Polo Combo.

Yes. Five years ago when I first joined I purchased the "required" items. Also ordered the polo. Started wearing the polo, and in five years have never been to a SAREX or mission where the polo was not included as UOD. So yes, the required uniform is still wrapped in plastic to keep the shirt nice and white, such that if its ever needed, I can pull it out. I'm ready.  LOL

I know all this varies by Wing and even squadrons. Some don't like the polo very much. Others you see the polo more often than not.

I've never seen an aviator shirt at a SAREX and rarely a polo, usually ABU, BBDU for ground crew and mission base and flight suits for aircrew.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 11, 2020, 08:15:05 PM
Quote from: etodd on August 11, 2020, 06:59:08 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2020, 06:15:48 PMMaybe a better question is... CAN you go on a mission or attend an event where the polo combo was not included in the UOD? Meaning do you possess a Field/Working Uniform besides the Polo Combo.

Yes. Five years ago when I first joined I purchased the "required" items. Also ordered the polo. Started wearing the polo, and in five years have never been to a SAREX or mission where the polo was not included as UOD. So yes, the required uniform is still wrapped in plastic to keep the shirt nice and white, such that if its ever needed, I can pull it out. I'm ready.  LOL

I know all this varies by Wing and even squadrons. Some don't like the polo very much. Others you see the polo more often than not.

I think you missed the scope of the question. Was not talking about a Dress/Service Uniform, I was asking about a Field Uniform.

Do you own a set of BDUs, BBDUs or ABUs to conduct ground Field operations if the Polo Shirt and grey tactical pants are unauthorized for the mission in question?
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 08:24:31 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on August 11, 2020, 08:15:05 PMif the Polo Shirt and grey tactical pants are unauthorized for the mission in question?

This is not a "thing".  Read 39-1. The CWU is considered a "working uniform" and is therefore approved
in any circumstance in which a "working uniform" is the UOD, including GT and UDF.

Has it ever happened?  Yes.  Will it happen to you? No.

We get CC's all the time with "ideas".  For better or worse, any CC or POC who disallowed
an otherwise compliant uniform combination, especially the CWU, would find themselves
an "Army of One".
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 08:28:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 07:59:29 PMI've never seen an aviator shirt at a SAREX and rarely a polo, usually ABU, BBDU for ground crew and mission base and flight suits for aircrew.

Your experience is not typical.

Service dress or Aviator whites a typical uniform worn by the PAOs, Chaplains, CISMs, Agency Liaisons, and
anyone else who may encounter the general public, including the IC.

The CWU is a typical uniform for ICS personnel at the branch or higher level assigned to the ICP.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 08:41:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 08:28:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 07:59:29 PMI've never seen an aviator shirt at a SAREX and rarely a polo, usually ABU, BBDU for ground crew and mission base and flight suits for aircrew.

Your experience is not typical.

Service dress or Aviator whites a typical uniform worn by the PAOs, Chaplains, CISMs, Agency Liaisons, and
anyone else who may encounter the general public, including the IC.

The CWU is a typical uniform for ICS personnel at the branch or higher level assigned to the ICP.

Not saying you're wrong, different Wings will do things different ways. Looking through all of the photos I took the last time I was PIO at a SAREX, I see a couple of polos, mostly ABU's, and a few FDU's. No aviators or blues, even among mission base staff.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SarDragon on August 11, 2020, 08:47:04 PM
Most of the missions I have been to, SAREX or otherwise, have had three groups of uniforms - polos for the staff folks, BDU/BBDU/ABU for the folks who are gonna get dirty, and zoom bags for the fliers. We did see some folks in Class B/aviators one time, as observers from somewhere outside the Group. I do not recall exactly who they were.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on August 11, 2020, 10:29:33 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2020, 08:24:31 PMThis is not a "thing".  Read 39-1. The CWU is considered a "working uniform" and is therefore approved
in any circumstance in which a "working uniform" is the UOD, including GT and UDF.

What the regulation actually says (Table 1-1) is that "(t)he Corporate Working Uniform may be worn in a flying, field or mission setting when the USAF‐style Class B or Corporate Aviator Shirt Uniform would normally be worn", and it also says that "(c)hoice of which combination is appropriate depends on the commander's direction and the type of event".

I have at least one time seen a senior member in the polo shirt, slacks and low quarters join a ground team in a TRAEX, but I don't think the regulation provides unambiguous support for that in the same way you do.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 11:32:48 PM
I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 12, 2020, 12:18:40 AM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 11, 2020, 11:32:48 PMI guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform.

That's required to complete the tasking.

There's no uniform prescription for any CAP duty within the regulations.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SARDOC on August 21, 2020, 12:42:47 AM
Quote from: Capt Thompson link=msg=435453 de=1597188768I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.

I tend to agree with this...at this point, I'd think less of it as a uniform but rather Personal Protective Equipment. I'd like us to all have a similar appearance just for the professionalism aspect when dealing with other agencies, but ultimately in the field, I feel safety is more important.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 21, 2020, 01:19:07 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 21, 2020, 12:42:47 AM
Quote from: Capt Thompson link=msg=435453 de=1597188768I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.

I tend to agree with this...at this point, I'd think less of it as a uniform but rather Personal Protective Equipment. I'd like us to all have a similar appearance just for the professionalism aspect when dealing with other agencies, but ultimately in the field, I feel safety is more important.

Safety is the most important thing.

But I don't get this notion of how one uniform looks more professional than the other. Professionalism is based on your appearance and conduct in a given environment. It would be unprofessional to be in Blues while jungle-hopping. It would be very much professional for the entire ICP to be in fatigues; nothing wrong with that. Many ICPs/EOCs are staffed in fatigues, and the press conferences are briefed in the utility UOD.

We get so wrapped up in this idea that you need to be in x-uniform in order to be professional. We have that backward.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on August 22, 2020, 03:10:31 AM
Air crews getting ready to chase Reapers awhile back. Fun mission. This is what we wore all week.

People choose what they feel comfortable in. Squadrons, Wings, Regions all vary. Its a good thing.

(Admin ... Feel free to delete if photos not allowed?)

(http://www.tuscaloosacap.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/S1-500x375.jpg)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on August 22, 2020, 03:27:39 AM
Quote from: etodd on August 22, 2020, 03:10:31 AMAir crews getting ready to chase Reapers awhile back. Fun mission. This is what we wore all week.

People choose what they feel comfortable in. Squadrons, Wings, Regions all vary. Its a good thing.

(Admin ... Feel free to delete if photos not allowed?)

(http://www.tuscaloosacap.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/S1-500x375.jpg)
But, it can't be denied. Six crew members. Six shades of gray.

We can do better than that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Fubar on August 22, 2020, 04:27:49 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 22, 2020, 03:27:39 AMBut, it can't be denied. Six crew members. Six shades of gray.

TPTB™ have determined that to be a feature, not a bug. It's not unreasonable that there are people who don't like the lack of uniformity, but equally reasonable there are people that like the flexibility.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: ctrossen on August 23, 2020, 06:26:13 PM
For all the complaints about the "non-uniformity" of the pants worn with the corporate combos, here's a flash - the National Guard has a uniform combo that is a direct analogue to our polo, one worn by members of the Civil Support Teams (of which each state and territory has at least one) - which are comprised of both Army and Air Guard members.

It's a simple blue polo with the CST logo on the left chest, worn with commercially sourced khaki pants, and the boots and t-shirts worn with their utility uniform. (Sound kinda familiar?)

Want to talk about not-quite standard shades of color? Check out the two links below that show members of CSTs in their "civilian friendly" uniforms. That first one has seven members. How many different colors of trousers do you see? How about the second?

https://minnesotanationalguard.ng.mil/55cst/ (https://minnesotanationalguard.ng.mil/55cst/)

https://mil.wa.gov/10th-civil-support-team (https://mil.wa.gov/10th-civil-support-team)


No matter the uniform combo that's ever been worn, there will always be differences in shade due to material used, wear, wash cycles (and the detergents used), etc. Regardless of the actual shade of color of a particular item, it still serves the same function - a uniform style of dress identifying and unifying a select group of members for a particular task or mission.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 23, 2020, 06:41:18 PM
Six crew members. Six shades of gray.

This should be CAP's marketing motto - it works on a number of levels.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SARDOC on August 23, 2020, 07:38:16 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 21, 2020, 01:19:07 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 21, 2020, 12:42:47 AM
Quote from: Capt Thompson link=msg=435453I guess one could also argue that the ground team gear list in the task guide calls for a complete BDU uniform. From a safety standpoint, last weekend we ran a practice missing person search and the brush got so thick the GTL ordered sleeves down, gloves and safety glasses. I wouldn't take someone in a polo to a mission deep in the woods for this reason.

I tend to agree with this...at this point, I'd think less of it as a uniform but rather Personal Protective Equipment. I'd like us to all have a similar appearance just for the professionalism aspect when dealing with other agencies, but ultimately in the field, I feel safety is more important.

Safety is the most important thing.

But I don't get this notion of how one uniform looks more professional than the other. Professionalism is based on your appearance and conduct in a given environment. It would be unprofessional to be in Blues while jungle-hopping. It would be very much professional for the entire ICP to be in fatigues; nothing wrong with that. Many ICPs/EOCs are staffed in fatigues, and the press conferences are briefed in the utility UOD.

We get so wrapped up in this idea that you need to be in x-uniform in order to be professional. We have that backward.

I'd say having a single uniform is the same reason why we put so much emphasis on Brand Identity.  Makes it look like we are somewhat coordinated.  Military Services have a Uniform of the Day for a reason.  Like we've got our crap together.  instead of just winging it.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Imouttahere on August 23, 2020, 09:36:14 PM
Agreed. I was speaking with a member of one of the local SAR teams and she was staying that the military uniforms were off putting on search sites. They looked uncoordinated and more akin to a militia. (Which we have here in Maine and who often show up). I explained to her what the background on CAP was and why we wore what we wore. It was interesting getting that side of things though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SARDOC on August 23, 2020, 09:52:45 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 23, 2020, 06:41:18 PMSix crew members. Six shades of gray.

This should be CAP's marketing motto - it works on a number of levels.
Are you referring to their pants or their hair?
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 02:13:12 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on August 23, 2020, 07:38:16 PMI'd say having a single uniform is the same reason why we put so much emphasis on Brand Identity.  Makes it look like we are somewhat coordinated.  Military Services have a Uniform of the Day for a reason.  Like we've got our crap together.  instead of just winging it.

Oh, I completely agree.

I think where you're operating (in what facility/office) and the task at-hand should absolutely dictate a common uniform for everyone in the room. And I think we often confuse what "professionalism" means in uniform, and get into these arguments over what to wear in equivalency rather than what everyone should be wearing.

If 90% of the people in the room are in fatigues, there shouldn't be people roaming around in white aviators. If most of us are in blues, nobody should be in a polo. We have a really tough time getting that right.

In most cases, we're all doing the same thing, essentially. The person manning the comms stack is supporting the same daily operation of the person running the sign-in and badging desk at the main table. It should be the same UOD.

A common uniform creates a coordinated team: we all know who works for whom and who is performing what function. If CAP is doing this, and that organization over there is doing that, a quick glance around should be able to identify all of that. We can look right to the deck of an aircraft carrier to figure that one out.


Quote from: usaf_defender on August 23, 2020, 09:36:14 PMI explained to her what the background on CAP was and why we wore what we wore. It was interesting getting that side of things though.

This seems to be a chronic problem that we face: we show up somewhere and have to explain who we are and why we're there. You don't see that in many other organizations.

I honestly think that a good half chunk of that problem is how we carry ourselves and introduce ourselves when we arrive somewhere. We have a real tendency, as an organization, to barge in and give off this attitude like we're important. Most of the people we run into have no idea who we are (nor do they care at that moment). Then there's a group that shows up and just stands there awkwardly waiting to be approached by someone, and that someone is thinking "Who the heck is this? Anyone know?"
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on August 24, 2020, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 02:13:12 PMI think where you're operating (in what facility/office) and the task at-hand should absolutely dictate a common uniform for everyone in the room.
 

^^^ This.  Obviously boots and fatigues if you're ground team traipsing through the forest and climbing hills.

But at Mission Base thats not necessary at all, and would look like you should be elsewhere outside. All you need to sit at a desk working Comms, or working in WMIRS, or filling out spreadsheets, is the polo. And its better than the white shirt, as coffee and pizza stains do not show up as bad. ;(

In colder WX, I can see the long sleeve bag suits for aircrews. But here in the hot, humid south, I see the polo more often than not in the planes.

So yes, duties should dictate uniforms more than appearances. JMHO
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 03:44:27 PM
A - There is no "common uniform".  That's the underlying problem.
In point of fact, there literally is no "uniform" at all, nor currently
any practical way for CC's to mandate wear of anything other then the
MBU.

B - No one outside the organization gives a rip "why" CAP is such a mess
with their uniforms.  They just see what you wear, and marching out the
explanations makes us look penny-ante and disjointed

C - You get to make a first impression once.

At the end of the day, an organization with a single visible identity that efficiently and quietly performed,
would be more impressive to everyone, internal and external, then the affectation people aspire to.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 24, 2020, 04:28:17 PM
QuoteA - There is no "common uniform".  That's the underlying problem.
In point of fact, there literally is no "uniform" at all, nor currently
any practical way for CC's to mandate wear of anything other then the
MBU.

Well, maybe we should change that. Maybe the the MBU for Senior Members should be changed to the Polo and Grey Tactical Pants combo so we do have a common uniform and then tie other other uniform combos to Rank Progression.

Polo = Level 1 = 2LT

USAF Class B/CAP Whites = Level 2 = 1LT

No Requirement for Level 3 = CPT

USAF Class A/Corporate Blazer = Level 4 = MAJ

Field/Flight USAF/Corporate tied to Technician Rating Requirements, i.e. Ground Team = OCP/ABU/BDU/BBDU; Pilot = Flight Suit USAF/Blue

Spell that out in the Instructions and the Regulations so there's no surprises but every new Senior Member understands the requirements.

Now, if we could get a single source supplier for one color grey tactical trousers and Class B Uniform trousers... that be a side of bacon.

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 04:35:44 PM
The reason the whites are the MBU is to be equivalent to the cadets' similar uniform.

The way to fix things is mandate wear of it properly before Level 1 is checked off, and
then start pushing uniform wear as an SUI / QCUA point.

The golf shirt is a necessary compromise that has been allowed to be treated as the MBU
by CCs who can't be bothered for far too long.

If you're going to have a uniform, have it, or don't.  Stop playing games.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 24, 2020, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 04:35:44 PMThe reason the whites are the MBU is to be equivalent to the cadets' similar uniform.

The way to fix things is mandate wear of it properly before Level 1 is checked off, and
then start pushing uniform wear as an SUI / QCUA point.

The golf shirt is a necessary compromise that has been allowed to be treated as the MBU
by CCs who can't be bothered for far too long.

If you're going to have a uniform, have it, or don't.  Stop playing games.

Is the Polo Combo a compromise? Maybe... but if every CAP Senior Member had that uniform (i.e. Required), we would achieve uniformity at an actual working mission.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 05:22:58 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on August 24, 2020, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 04:35:44 PMThe reason the whites are the MBU is to be equivalent to the cadets' similar uniform.

The way to fix things is mandate wear of it properly before Level 1 is checked off, and
then start pushing uniform wear as an SUI / QCUA point.

The golf shirt is a necessary compromise that has been allowed to be treated as the MBU
by CCs who can't be bothered for far too long.

If you're going to have a uniform, have it, or don't.  Stop playing games.

Is the Polo Combo a compromise? Maybe... but if every CAP Senior Member had that uniform (i.e. Required), we would achieve uniformity at an actual working mission.

But again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons, up in MIWG aircrews all wear bags, you won't ever be able to get everyone in a polo.

Then we have the other question, which polo? The one with the white seal on the left, or the full color seal on the right with name and rating on the left, or the black tactical polo.....
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 24, 2020, 05:45:03 PM
QuoteThen we have the other question, which polo? The one with the white seal on the left, or the full color seal on the right with name and rating on the left, or the black tactical polo.....

Like shades of Grey, CAP needs to pick ONE, say this is it, give the other ones an appropriate wear-out date and move on.

As I said further up in the Thread, if you want to be on a Ground Team, tie a Field Uniform possession to earning the technician Rating. Check Block #1 ...Possess Appropriate Field Uniform (OCP, ABU, BDU, BBDU).

Personally, the OD Uniform that started this thread should have been adopted as the SOLE Senior Member Field Uniform give the rest an appropriate wear-out date and move one.

Let the Cadets keep the OCP/ABU Field Uniform and put the Seniors into ONE (and only ONE) Field Uniform.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 06:01:07 PM
The technician rating in the ES specialty track, and a ground team ops qualification are 2 different things, and you need the BDU's/ABU's before you begin training, not after achieving the qual.

If we're going to have one field uniform, make it the Blue BDU's, Cadet and Senior, and be done with it.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 06:08:45 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 05:22:58 PMBut again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons,

They can and do today.

The fact that they can is part of the problem.

So is the multi-colors and style of the gold shirt, etc., etc.

CAP has historically been terrified of alienating what is likely a very small
portion of the membership because of their perceived reception of "required"
vs. "we'd really like you to".

I would hazard the majority of members worth keeping would be very happy if
the term(s) "may" and "should" were permanently replaced with "will".  Even those
who didn't' like it would still have the luxury of being told the way of the world
and then making decisions based on that.

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: GroundHawg on August 24, 2020, 06:42:56 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 06:01:07 PMThe technician rating in the ES specialty track, and a ground team ops qualification are 2 different things, and you need the BDU's/ABU's before you begin training, not after achieving the qual.

If we're going to have one field uniform, make it the Blue BDU's, Cadet and Senior, and be done with it.

Preach!!!
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 06:49:54 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on August 24, 2020, 06:42:56 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 06:01:07 PMThe technician rating in the ES specialty track, and a ground team ops qualification are 2 different things, and you need the BDU's/ABU's before you begin training, not after achieving the qual.

If we're going to have one field uniform, make it the Blue BDU's, Cadet and Senior, and be done with it.

Preach!!!
It would make things so much easier, we have no need to look tactical whatsoever so the BBDU's fit the mission much better. Everyone could be in the same uniform, and we wouldn't have to change field uniforms every time big blue does.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 05:22:58 PMBut again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons, up in MIWG aircrews all wear bags, you won't ever be able to get everyone in a polo.

We could put aircrews in ABUs (or A2CUs).
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 08:13:11 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 24, 2020, 05:22:58 PMBut again, ground teams can't run around in the woods in short sleeved polos for safety reasons, up in MIWG aircrews all wear bags, you won't ever be able to get everyone in a polo.

We could put aircrews in ABUs (or A2CUs).
Would be one less expense for those on aircrew if they already have ABU's. I don't know about you though, but I think the FDU is a little more comfortable than ABU's or BDU's for sitting for long periods of time.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SarDragon on August 24, 2020, 09:11:07 PM
Quote from: etodd on August 24, 2020, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 02:13:12 PMI think where you're operating (in what facility/office) and the task at-hand should absolutely dictate a common uniform for everyone in the room.
 

^^^ This.  Obviously boots and fatigues if you're ground team traipsing through the forest and climbing hills.

But at Mission Base thats not necessary at all, and would look like you should be elsewhere outside. All you need to sit at a desk working Comms, or working in WMIRS, or filling out spreadsheets, is the polo. And its better than the white shirt, as coffee and pizza stains do not show up as bad. ;(

In colder WX, I can see the long sleeve bag suits for aircrews. But here in the hot, humid south, I see the polo more often than not in the planes.

So yes, duties should dictate uniforms more than appearances. JMHO

In my AOR, comms isn't just sitting at a desk. We have to set up a complete station, including antennas. This is not clean work. I, and most others on the comm team, wear BDU/ABU/BBDUs during exercises and missions.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 24, 2020, 09:46:34 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 07:10:06 PMWe could put aircrews in ABUs (or A2CUs).

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 24, 2020, 07:10:06 PMWould be one less expense for those on aircrew if they already have ABU's.

Could?

Can and do all the time, as do the majority of cadets.

FDUs are not required for flying (hasn't even Cali's supp been removed?)

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Stonewall on August 25, 2020, 01:26:48 PM
It's interesting how this thread, much like the original from 13 years ago, always end the same.

"We are this, not that."

"We only need polo shirts."

"We are a paramilitary organization."

"We're not a Real SAR Organization."

"We don't need uniforms at all."

"Most people don't want to wear uniforms."

It goes on and on and on, all because of uniforms. Do ABUs have a place in SAR? Do cadets have a place in SAR? Specifically Ground SAR? All good questions, and EVERYONE'S response, many of which are passionate and seem to be deeply personal, have valid points, where others seem to be based on "I just don't want to wear a military uniform."

All the way back in 2007 when I was healing from back surgery, which is when I joined CAP Talk, because I had almost two months of nothing to do, I grabbed an Olive Drab version of the ACU made by Tru-Spec (https://www.truspec.com/uniforms/tactical-response-uniform-tru) and threw my CAP name tapes and patches on the blouse. They don't even make the olive drab version anymore.  It was just a random thought that, took on hundreds of responses fueled with opinion and personal feelings on uniforms in CAP.

I think  the big divide is that between a military style cadet program, where military uniforms make sense, both for the youth and adults involved, but then you head over to our second of three missions, emergency services, and the question comes "do we need the same uniform for ES as we do in cadet programs?

The answer is...

In MY opinion, PROBABLY NOT.

I have two close friends, one is a former cadet of mine (PJOC grad, C/Lt Col, PhD, white water rafting expert, and trail guide) who is now a part of the Shenandoah Mountain Rescue Group in Virginia. The other is a recently retired Navy Special Warfare Corpsman doing SAR in California. One of the things these two different SAR organizations have, despite being on separate coasts of the CONUS, is their loose uniform requirements. Loose, but still, a uniform nonetheless.

Here is an example of SMRG out of Virginia.
(http://smrg.org/SMRGimages/smrg_team_alpha.jpg)

One of the thoughts I had, even back in 2007 when I hastily threw the OD uniform together, is that it fits the uniformity need for the cadet program and has a military appearance to it. Then, for our GSAR folks, doff the blouse and throw on a blaze orange CAP-SAR t-shirt, long sleeve or even a windbreaker or other jacket, and bam, you fit the bill for a SAR team member.

Maybe something like this?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Ahzl3EPN-f41iI8_u-YwsrWVmofrfCy-bDxQrHCkp00eIEt2jWWlXAHZvDHBayquHPTRhfcR1cz9ZFuwymcgakZvTZn7wiZ30-haCWxC9f8eMl2KFVr9NMN_5nn2ngflEhrZY2CrI4pXDsg78StJaEKfQ5IK5zXb3gpCDKBn)

So, bring this back to 2020. The 2007 idea of an olive drab BDU style uniform is irrelevant. But the discussion of our military program's uniform (currently ABUs) being the right uniform for Emergency Services should still be on the table. Personally, I HATE ABUs, I always have, in the AF and in CAP, but what I do like is consistency, continuity, and uniformity. But let's be realistic about this.  The PJs who run SAR missions here in the US, to include launch and recovery support to NASA, don't wear the same uniforms for those missions as they do on Combat SAR Missions. Sure, they'll be wearing their MultiCam combat pants because they're good for anything, but you'll see them with a blaze orange, even reflective top, an orange rock climbing helmet, and a chest rig with a radio. 

CAP doesn't do a whole bunch of Ground SAR these days, I understand that, but we still do offer the service, and still actually do real world ground SAR missions. If we adjusted our methodology, updated our doctrine; everything from packing lists to specific SAR "uniforms" (or a better term may be "SAR attire"), then perhaps we could have a stronger showing and an improved reputation within the Volunteer SAR community.

/Uniform Rant
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 25, 2020, 01:41:31 PM
I would agree with swapping out to an orange shirt of some sort when doing ES missions, and it would give a better appearance of uniformity even when you have a mix of ABU, BBDU and woodland BDU trousers in the group.

The only barrier would be for our Cadets just getting into ES that already have to put together a gear load, this would be an added expense, but doesn't necessarily have to be a large expense depending on what type of shirt or windbreaker we used. You could go with a Class II compliant T-shirt with some sort of logo for UDF and ground search in open field, and then have a Class II compliant long sleeve shirt you could quickly throw on when playing in the woods.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Stonewall on August 25, 2020, 02:08:59 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 25, 2020, 01:41:31 PMThe only barrier would be for our Cadets just getting into ES that already have to put together a gear load, this would be an added expense, but doesn't necessarily have to be a large expense depending on what type of shirt or windbreaker we used.

That's partly why I alluded to updating our doctrine here.

Quote from: Stonewall on August 25, 2020, 01:26:48 PMIf we adjusted our methodology, updated our doctrine; everything from packing lists to specific SAR "uniforms" (or a better term may be "SAR attire"), then perhaps we could have a stronger showing and an improved reputation within the Volunteer SAR community.

I've asked for packing lists from a couple of Volunteer SAR groups to compare theirs to ours just to see the differences, if any. While I know ours is antiquated for things like "change to make phone calls" and "35mm camera", but I have a feeling we have a handful of items others may consider irrelevant and unnecessary weight, and cost.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 25, 2020, 02:28:12 PM
I would assume most local SAR groups have less along the lines of survival, and more along the lines of first aid and medical equipment. When is the last time you've needed a signal mirror on an ES mission, or waterproof matches, etc. Shelter material can be used to make an improvised litter, but then we have an actual litter in the van. I understand the reasoning, and there are some places in the Country where this might be practical, but if we are having members getting lost and having to set up shelter or use survival skills on a mission, something went seriously wrong at some point.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 25, 2020, 02:56:34 PM
Here is NASAR's Sartech II packing list: http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nasar/legacy_url/64/NASAR_SARTECHTM_II_MINIMUM_PERSONAL_EQUIPMENT_LIST_11_2004.pdf?1421875176

I stand corrected, they have all of the survival equipment we have and more. They also have climbing gear (tubular webbing, carabiners, prusik cords etc.), and they use tracking sticks which we don't train with but maybe should.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Stonewall on August 25, 2020, 03:49:49 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 25, 2020, 02:56:34 PMHere is NASAR's Sartech II packing list: http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nasar/legacy_url/64/NASAR_SARTECHTM_II_MINIMUM_PERSONAL_EQUIPMENT_LIST_11_2004.pdf?1421875176

I stand corrected, they have all of the survival equipment we have and more. They also have climbing gear (tubular webbing, carabiners, prusik cords etc.), and they use tracking sticks which we don't train with but maybe should.

Yeah, I had that list, but I was more centered on the "extended duration pack", or 72 hour pack. (Which, is only required for CAP's GTM-2 and GTM-1) And that's on par with NASAR SARTECH II minimum standards. I always see our ground team members with so many dangling items, mostly inconsistent with quality gear, or with each other, that it's an eyesore.

There are a few things that are different, but the differences are minimal and offset each other as far as weight, but not for necessity. I'm also sure the NASAR guys adjust what they pack once they've passed the evaluation, much like many do in CAP.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 25, 2020, 04:27:32 PM
I don't know that the direction of the conversation went too far awry in discussing what uniform fits what scenario.

I think a huge talking point that was brought up is the fact that not only is there a uniform for every situation and circumstance, but sometimes a single situation has five different uniforms on-deck. That's the "why" in all of this.

If you show up to the main hut, you're going to see:

The images above were a great example of how each team has a similar appearance known as a "uniform." Maybe they're not a 100% match, but you see a theme of pants and shirts, and even gear.

CAP doesn't do that. Everyone is scattered wearing different stuff because of what they chose to arrive in and what they feel more comfortable in.

My vision:
"This is the uniform you need to be in for this mission/activity. There's no equivalent. This is what we're all wearing. If you don't like it, don't come."
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 25, 2020, 04:45:46 PM
You can't prescribe the packing list until you define the mission.
Right now CAP has mission statements, not mission definitions.

You can't define the mission until you have defined the customer.
The customer in CAP's case includes the cadets.

You can't be all things to all people.
CAP currently tries to do this, while being averse to anything that might
define itself in a way that reduces its audience, both external and internal.


Start there.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 25, 2020, 04:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 25, 2020, 04:27:32 PMMy vision:
"This is the uniform you need to be in for this mission/activity. There's no equivalent. This is what we're all wearing. If you don't like it, don't come."

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Spam on August 25, 2020, 04:58:31 PM
My vision:
- The uniform is set by the activity based on safety and suitability, with affordability as an independent variable.
- Where there is no clear, driving safety or suitability need, "Any" is a valid option to maximize participation/affordability.
- Safety needs are not "I'm wearing a Steelers jacket over blues because its cold equals Safety".
- Suitability needs are not "I'm wearing an FDU to a Dining Out because I want to be stylin".
- Both safety, suitability, and affordability/availability were righteously considered a factor in the recent CP pub rewrite (e.g. commanders should allow for the wear of warm BDUs or civilian clothing (not mixed) in transit to a Wing Conference for warmth/safety, then wear blues in the hotel).

And the final thought:  if I had a SAR customer slowly dying in the field, and knew that someone had turned away a major fraction of trained potential searchers because they only had a polo shirt, that would earn the curses of my dying breath. It it fits and is oddball, but doesnt bust safety or suitability (e.g. mix USAF/civ), it is welcome with me.

R/s
Spam
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: vorteks on August 25, 2020, 05:03:55 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 25, 2020, 04:27:32 PMMy vision:
"This is the uniform you need to be in for this mission/activity. There's no equivalent. This is what we're all wearing. If you don't like it, don't come."

So if the UOD is Blues or ABUs your "vision" would necessarily exclude many capable and willing volunteers who couldn't come even if they wanted to.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 25, 2020, 07:16:44 PM
Quote from: vorteks on August 25, 2020, 05:03:55 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 25, 2020, 04:27:32 PMMy vision:
"This is the uniform you need to be in for this mission/activity. There's no equivalent. This is what we're all wearing. If you don't like it, don't come."

So if the UOD is Blues or ABUs your "vision" would necessarily exclude many capable and willing volunteers who couldn't come even if they wanted to.

I don't understand the all-sizes-fit-all approach here. If the UOD is ABUs, why would you be in Blues? If this is a formal awards banquet, and you show up in camo fatigues, something obviously went wrong here. You're not even in an appropriate equivalency.

So let's go back to the part about equivalent uniforms. The discussion was a single uniform, right? So why have an equivalent. If all we have is a set of Blue BDUs in CAPR 39-1 for a designated working uniform, I don't understand what that has to do with turning away someone. That would literally be the uniform combination for the utility environment. If it was the polo, and a BDU set didn't exist, same ordeal.

Why do we have all of these uniform combinations for the exact same function?

Someone shows up in "civies," they're out of uniform. That's fairly easy: they didn't wear one (for whatever reason). Someone wears a suit and tie versus a designated dress uniform, that's probably linked to cost in most cases. That's also pretty easy.

Someone shows up in a CAP 182 and steps out in a flight suit while another pilot steps out of another 182 in a polo with grey pants and another pilot steps out of another 182 in ABUs; then I'm a little confused. One ground team member is in full ABU battle rattle while another is wearing a polo; again, kind of lost.

I don't get why we have so many options to wear. Is it really cost, or is it comfort? Is it because there are people in the organization that don't want to wear A and would rather wear B, so we go "Okay, wear what you want so long as it falls within the realm of clothing?"

What's this turn away stuff? If the regulation actually stated what the appropriate uniform is, then that's what they should be expected to show up in if they're on CAP duty. If a cadet showed up in shorts and a t-shirt, are they still allowed to go on the O-Flight?
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: arajca on August 25, 2020, 07:22:05 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 25, 2020, 07:16:44 PM
Quote from: vorteks on August 25, 2020, 05:03:55 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 25, 2020, 04:27:32 PMMy vision:
"This is the uniform you need to be in for this mission/activity. There's no equivalent. This is what we're all wearing. If you don't like it, don't come."

So if the UOD is Blues or ABUs your "vision" would necessarily exclude many capable and willing volunteers who couldn't come even if they wanted to.

I don't understand the all-sizes-fit-all approach here. If the UOD is ABUs, why would you be in Blues? If this is a formal awards banquet, and you show up in camo fatigues, something obviously went wrong here. You're not even in an appropriate equivalency.

So let's go back to the part about equivalent uniforms. The discussion was a single uniform, right? So why have an equivalent. If all we have is a set of Blue BDUs in CAPR 39-1 for a designated working uniform, I don't understand what that has to do with turning away someone. That would literally be the uniform combination for the utility environment. If it was the polo, and a BDU set didn't exist, same ordeal.

Why do we have all of these uniform combinations for the exact same function?

Someone shows up in "civies," they're out of uniform. That's fairly easy: they didn't wear one (for whatever reason). Someone wears a suit and tie versus a designated dress uniform, that's probably linked to cost in most cases. That's also pretty easy.

Someone shows up in a CAP 182 and steps out in a flight suit while another pilot steps out of another 182 in a polo with grey pants and another pilot steps out of another 182 in ABUs; then I'm a little confused. One ground team member is in full ABU battle rattle while another is wearing a polo; again, kind of lost.

I don't get why we have so many options to wear. Is it really cost, or is it comfort? Is it because there are people in the organization that don't want to wear A and would rather wear B, so we go "Okay, wear what you want so long as it falls within the realm of clothing?"

What's this turn away stuff? If the regulation actually stated what the appropriate uniform is, then that's what they should be expected to show up in if they're on CAP duty. If a cadet showed up in shorts and a t-shirt, are they still allowed to go on the O-Flight?
Under your proposal, if the uniform specified is BLUES, I can't attend as I can't wear them. Ditto for ABUs. It's not a matter of preference or affordability. You're telling me I'm not welcome because I can't wear the uniform you specify.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 25, 2020, 07:23:13 PM
The answer to every question you ask is...

"A compromise aimed at retention while avoiding making people sad."
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 25, 2020, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 25, 2020, 07:22:05 PMUnder your proposal, if the uniform specified is BLUES,
?  You're required to own them (or whites).

To be fair, part of the solution is the USAF getting over itself.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: arajca on August 25, 2020, 08:37:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 25, 2020, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 25, 2020, 07:22:05 PMUnder your proposal, if the uniform specified is BLUES,
?  You're required to own them (or whites).

To be fair, part of the solution is the USAF getting over itself.
True, and I do, but his vision says "there is no equivalent". Therefore, since I can't wear blues or ABUs, I am not welcome at those activities where BLUEs or ABUs are specified, only the specified uniforms are acceptable.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 25, 2020, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 25, 2020, 08:37:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 25, 2020, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 25, 2020, 07:22:05 PMUnder your proposal, if the uniform specified is BLUES,
?  You're required to own them (or whites).

To be fair, part of the solution is the USAF getting over itself.
True, and I do, but his vision says "there is no equivalent". Therefore, since I can't wear blues or ABUs, I am not welcome at those activities where BLUEs or ABUs are specified, only the specified uniforms are acceptable.

Well, OK.  But "there is no equivalent" literally would not work today, so either
the USAF caves or CAP goes with their own uniforms.

You'll always have people who can't or won't be bothered, but if you pick the bar
back up off the floor and reset the expectation, the exceptions will stand out all the more.

It will all continue to be academic until the National Leadership makes hard choices and
also starts enforcing proper wear.  I've said for years that if people started being held
to the actual standard, things would change quickly, if only because members who think
they are fooling everyone would suddenly find themselves on the corporate side of the house.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 25, 2020, 09:40:19 PM
Quote from: undefinedTo be fair, part of the solution is the USAF getting over itself.

And that is the nail being hit on the head.

The Coast Guard did that and the Auxiliary  does not seem to have nearly as many Uniform issues as CAP does.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Fubar on August 25, 2020, 10:30:40 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on August 25, 2020, 09:40:19 PMThe Coast Guard did that and the Auxiliary  does not seem to have nearly as many Uniform issues as CAP does.

Nobody has the amount of uniform issues that CAP has.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 26, 2020, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Fubar on August 25, 2020, 10:30:40 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on August 25, 2020, 09:40:19 PMThe Coast Guard did that and the Auxiliary  does not seem to have nearly as many Uniform issues as CAP does.

Nobody has the amount of uniform issues that CAP has.

That's because we have all of these optional equivalencies, and we don't enforce when to wear what uniform.

And this thread has now circled back to Page 1.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: UWONGO2 on August 26, 2020, 04:33:16 PM
So for what it's worth, uniforms came up during the command council meeting over the weekend during a Q&A with the national commander (uniforms were not part of any agenda items). Someone asked about the new Air Force uniform and I'm paraphrasing here but essentially it was he doesn't want to start a new uniform transition until the current one is over.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: PHall on August 26, 2020, 05:38:54 PM
Quote from: UWONGO2 on August 26, 2020, 04:33:16 PMSo for what it's worth, uniforms came up during the command council meeting over the weekend during a Q&A with the national commander (uniforms were not part of any agenda items). Someone asked about the new Air Force uniform and I'm paraphrasing here but essentially it was he doesn't want to start a new uniform transition until the current one is over.
Quote from: UWONGO2 on August 26, 2020, 04:33:16 PMSo for what it's worth, uniforms came up during the command council meeting over the weekend during a Q&A with the national commander (uniforms were not part of any agenda items). Someone asked about the new Air Force uniform and I'm paraphrasing here but essentially it was he doesn't want to start a new uniform transition until the current one is over.

Problem is that the uniform we're transitioning to is being phased out and about the only place to get it is from Vanguard at Vanguard prices.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 26, 2020, 06:16:46 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 26, 2020, 05:38:54 PMProblem is that the uniform we're transitioning to is being phased out and about the only place to get it is from Vanguard at Vanguard prices.

So?

That's how the majority of organizations that are similar (at least in regards to membership) to CAP function.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 26, 2020, 06:28:29 PM
For most Cadets it's not an issue, they'll outgrow their ABU's and then transition to OCP's when the time comes. It's hard to suggest a new Senior spend Vanguard prices on ABU's though knowing they may soon transition out. Not so big a deal if they can find the ABU's on eBay cheap though.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on August 26, 2020, 06:29:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 26, 2020, 06:16:46 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 26, 2020, 05:38:54 PMProblem is that the uniform we're transitioning to is being phased out and about the only place to get it is from Vanguard at Vanguard prices.

So?

That's how the majority of organizations that are similar (at least in regards to membership) to CAP function.

It's new to CAP. The BDU was and still is readily available from multiple sources. I think the situation was the same for the OD uniform before the BDU. As Eclipse said we now have one expensive source for the ABU. And if Vanguard decides that carrying the ABU sizes at the ends of the bell curve for those who can wear it they are just plain out of luck.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 26, 2020, 07:12:27 PM
One could certainly draw lines between the shared uniform components from other organizations
and the current state of the multiform, and its proper wear.

The decision makers about the uniform generally have ready-access to those parts
either from their closets or from the store on the base they have access to, while
the rank and file generally have not.

By far the majority of members will never set foot on a military base, and of course we
all know about AAFES, so commercial sources have been the only place to get
uniforms for these members, anyway.  This alone is responsible for the consistent
issues with proper outerwear for the USAF-style uniforms, especially for cadets.

It's easy to say "you will" when you can just walk over to the store, or click a few buttons
and get what you need (or already have it).

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 26, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: UWONGO2 on August 26, 2020, 04:33:16 PMSo for what it's worth, uniforms came up during the command council meeting over the weekend during a Q&A with the national commander (uniforms were not part of any agenda items). Someone asked about the new Air Force uniform and I'm paraphrasing here but essentially it was he doesn't want to start a new uniform transition until the current one is over.

Truthfully, that's really NOT a problem.

GTS: "ocp uniforms for sale" ... 300,000 results in less than half a second.

So no worries about having to go to the Exchange to get them or worries that Soldiers, Airmen and Spacemen not being able to get them because CAP is draining the supply system. You can get them almost anywhere and at reasonable costs.

The simple answer is to issue a policy letter authorizing a CAP version of OCPs, put in a wear-out date for ABUs and have done with it.

That or pick a Corporate Field (Blue, OD, Orange, etc.) and say this is it and put a wear-out date for everything else.

Personally I like the OD uniform on Page One of this Thread. Tactical enough for Cadets and those Seniors with Martial expectations to still be a recruiting draw, functional in the Field and not an USAF item so everyone can wear it.

Uniformity at last.   

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Spam on August 26, 2020, 10:11:37 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 26, 2020, 06:28:29 PMFor most Cadets it's not an issue, they'll outgrow their ABU's and then transition to OCP's when the time comes. It's hard to suggest a new Senior spend Vanguard prices on ABU's though knowing they may soon transition out. Not so big a deal if they can find the ABU's on eBay cheap though.

I most strongly disagree, this IS an issue.

"When the time comes"... the decision point is upon us right now, this fall, for at least a bunch of our cadets (spend/quit).

I have a cadet dependent in that situation right now, and he has friends discussing their similar conclusions. Grew out of his BDUs, growing out of his ABUs, and really no ABUs to be had. I don't have much of a solution for him other than for him to pay hundreds from his allowance/earnings to reequip (if he wants full sets to serve multi day activities like Encampment), or quit. On top of a half year now with no meetings or activities other than WebEx he is finding it hard to justify the cost (and hard to mention his waning interest to me). I find his attitude understandable, even for a formerly hard charging 15 year old GTM3 C/MSGT with actual missions under his belt. No activities, obsolete unavailable uniforms... why stay in, again?

So, NHQ had better think more quickly. The problem is already on us, not five years away.

V/r
Spam
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on August 27, 2020, 12:45:36 AM
Quote from: Spam on August 26, 2020, 10:11:37 PMNo activities, obsolete unavailable uniforms... why stay in, again?

So, NHQ had better think more quickly. The problem is already on us, not five years away.


Bigger emphasis on aerospace ... and start easing out of outdoor ground team work for Cadets. Eliminate a huge expense with outdoor uniforms and all the gear in backpack.

Yeah, I know .... many will not like it. But SAR is dwindling, unless you are in a very few specific areas, or are part of the Cell Phone Forensics Team.

"Encampments" could be in a computer room at the local library.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: PHall on August 27, 2020, 04:29:48 AM
Quote from: etodd on August 27, 2020, 12:45:36 AM
Quote from: Spam on August 26, 2020, 10:11:37 PMNo activities, obsolete unavailable uniforms... why stay in, again?

So, NHQ had better think more quickly. The problem is already on us, not five years away.


Bigger emphasis on aerospace ... and start easing out of outdoor ground team work for Cadets. Eliminate a huge expense with outdoor uniforms and all the gear in backpack.

Yeah, I know .... many will not like it. But SAR is dwindling, unless you are in a very few specific areas, or are part of the Cell Phone Forensics Team.

"Encampments" could be in a computer room at the local library.

How about reviewing ALL of the requirements that Encampments have to accomplish and then tell us how you're going to do it virtually in that computer room. It's all in CAP Pamphlet 60-70 Encampment Guide.
There's over 40 contact hours of stuff that's required to earn encampment credit.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: ironputts on August 27, 2020, 10:41:57 AM
Temporary break in discussion

I always enjoyed a good uniform discussion. I just got an ABU and no where to go. Right now my only uniform is the polo shirt and pants during virtual training sessions.

Please continue discussion
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PM
Quote from: etodd on August 27, 2020, 12:45:36 AM
Quote from: Spam on August 26, 2020, 10:11:37 PMNo activities, obsolete unavailable uniforms... why stay in, again?

So, NHQ had better think more quickly. The problem is already on us, not five years away.


Bigger emphasis on aerospace ... and start easing out of outdoor ground team work for Cadets. Eliminate a huge expense with outdoor uniforms and all the gear in backpack.

Yeah, I know .... many will not like it. But SAR is dwindling, unless you are in a very few specific areas, or are part of the Cell Phone Forensics Team.
If we eliminate the ES mission for Cadets, we would say goodbye to 75% of my Cadets. That would eliminate many of the uniform issues, as we wouldn't have many Cadets to worry about getting uniforms for.

A few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any, and that program is part of the key to making ES relevant to the current climate IMO.

If we did scale back ES, that wouldn't eliminate the need for a field uniform. Are we shooting off rockets in blues? Climbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues? A field uniform for Cadets is still a necessity.

Quote"Encampments" could be in a computer room at the local library.
How many Cadets would want to spend a week in a library on Zoom? Where are you going to find a library open right about now? How do you do PT in the computer room of a library? Is the library large enough for a full scale pass in review? I have so many questions.....

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on August 27, 2020, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any, and that program is part of the key to making ES relevant to the current climate IMO.

Not expecting much SAR with drones. More toward disaster photos. Yes, I'm in polo.

QuoteClimbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues?

I do it in my polo all the time.

QuoteHow do you do PT in the computer room of a library?


PT?  These kids are getting excited about a possible future Space Force Aux, where everything will be sitting in front of a computer.

Think long term.  Our days of outdoor roughing it are coming to a close. (JMHO)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: PHall on August 27, 2020, 03:29:17 PM
Yep, still need PT. We're trying to get them to live a healthy lifestyle.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Fubar on August 27, 2020, 03:36:30 PM
NHQ threw out the idea during the national conference of moving encampment classroom sessions online to reduce the amount of time the cadets are together for encampment.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:48:33 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 27, 2020, 03:29:17 PMYep, still need PT. We're trying to get them to live a healthy lifestyle.
This, there won't be a lot of new recruits to Space Force pushing 300 pounds, fitness is still an important factor for current and future warfighters, and will continue to be an important factor for Cadets. We even go over the importance of physical health and fitness during o-flights, as pilots do more than just sit in a seat and steer.

Quote from: etodd on August 27, 2020, 02:46:27 PMNot expecting much SAR with drones. More toward disaster photos. Yes, I'm in polo.
And DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:04:38 PM
Quote from: Fubar on August 27, 2020, 03:36:30 PMNHQ threw out the idea during the national conference of moving encampment classroom sessions online to reduce the amount of time the cadets are together for encampment.

Hopefully by "thrown out" you mean discarded.

Doing that would not only >not< reduce the risk of infection, but it would also essentially
negate the point of the activity.  Turning it into an exercise of marching, eating, and sleeping,
with no educational component.

You probably couldn't do most of the TLPs or PT either.

Believe me, I'm the first person who wants to fix the way encampments are structured and presented - the
"tests" for example, need to just...go...and several classes are just time-fillers, but most of them present
important information about teamwork and leadership, and evolution of the activity is built around
a cadets seeing the academic play out in the laboratory of the activity, often to great effect.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:05:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:48:33 PMAnd DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.

"DR on the ground."
That's actually funny right there.

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Spam on August 27, 2020, 05:18:42 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:05:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:48:33 PMAnd DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.

"DR on the ground."
That's actually funny right there.



I for one am grinning like a cat.  CAP ground teams have about zero use in DR these days, and I say that as a big GT advocate.

V/r
Spam
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 05:33:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:05:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:48:33 PMAnd DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.

"DR on the ground."
That's actually funny right there.


When's the last time a pilot sifted through rubble from the air? Agreed most DR nowadays is handled by AP and eventually UASMP types, but the last DR mission I went on involved several hours of cleanup on the ground.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 27, 2020, 05:41:18 PM
The phase-in of ABUs started with the Air Force in 2007. By 2011, everyone was wearing ABUs.

The phase-in of ABUs in CAP started in 2016. By 2021, woodland BDUs are to be a thing of the past.

That's a 4-year span from when the Air Force was fully implemented with the ABU to when CAP started the initial phase-in. That's 9 years since ABUs were first introduced into the fleet.

The Air Force started wearing OCPs in 2018. By this calculation, if we went with a similar timeline, CAP would not see OCPs until 2027, if history was to repeat itself.

The Sea Cadets started their phase-in of the NWU Type III (woodlands) in 2019. The rumor mill has it that AFJROTC will start phasing in OCPs in 2021.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 06:29:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 05:33:29 PMWhen's the last time a pilot sifted through rubble from the air? Agreed most DR nowadays is handled by AP and eventually UASMP types, but the last DR mission I went on involved several hours of cleanup on the ground.

CAP has no DR doctrine whatsoever.

By far the vast majority of "DR" is members, especially cadets, with a wet, or worse no, GES, handing out water. People who could not be bothered to spend time or money on equipment or training the rest of the year, but benefit from CAP's general "getinthegameitis" at the last minute.

Nothing CAP does in "DR" requires a field uniform, and 99.99999999% of the stuff CAP gets itself
involved in, and publishes as a "win" for the press, is stuff that could be done as a private
citizen, absent CAP's involvement, and would probably be better off handled that way.

You don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on August 27, 2020, 07:28:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 06:29:35 PMYou don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.

But how are you going to get the Disaster Relief Ribbon with silver 'V' device that way?!
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Spam on August 27, 2020, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 06:29:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 05:33:29 PMWhen's the last time a pilot sifted through rubble from the air? Agreed most DR nowadays is handled by AP and eventually UASMP types, but the last DR mission I went on involved several hours of cleanup on the ground.

CAP has no DR doctrine whatsoever.

By far the vast majority of "DR" is members, especially cadets, with a wet, or worse no, GES, handing out water. People who could not be bothered to spend time or money on equipment or training the rest of the year, but benefit from CAP's general "getinthegameitis" at the last minute.

Nothing CAP does in "DR" requires a field uniform, and 99.99999999% of the stuff CAP gets itself
involved in, and publishes as a "win" for the press, is stuff that could be done as a private
citizen, absent CAP's involvement, and would probably be better off handled that way.

You don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.

Worse, most of the scratch mission taskings that we stupidly accept from customers to whom we've oversold our capabilities end up being borderline dangerous to our well intentioned members. At least, that was my experience from being an IC/GBD on several floods, blizzards, and hurricane DR missions. I personally had to yank well meaning CAP sand baggers back through waist deep Missouri River water at 0300 because the levee was failing and they were not following instructions to get back and not be drowned. I had to step in when we had members "clearing rubble" with a freakin chainsaw while standing on a forklift with no straps and no PPE (OSHA, turn thy gaze aside from South Georgia...). I had to stop CAP from sending out teams in a blizzard in 2WD, no chains, no snow tires, 12 pax vans where trucks were swerving off I-95 and killing people left and right (CTWG).

Been there since the 80s, earned the DR ribbon, and seen CAP barely avoid death and dismemberment due to lack of training and equipment compounded by lack of doctrine and over marketing. CAP should be an initial responder, not a cleanup phase rubble sifter, period. We should not be competing (ahem - federal?) with tree companies or cleanup firms, especially when the Asplundh company guys stare wide eyed at how we employ our minor cadets.

So no, (full circle), I don't see any DR justification for distinctive field uniforms, no. We don't need camo to support cosplay "because DR". Let's find some other rationalization, folks.

V/r
Spam
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: baronet68 on August 27, 2020, 08:32:11 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMIf we eliminate the ES mission for Cadets, we would say goodbye to 75% of my Cadets.

Your unit must be recruiting with an emphasis toward ES missions because your unit definitely doesn't match the national trend.

When completing online membership applications, cadet applicants are asked to select their top two choices from a list of six reasons to join CAP. 
Based on 47,253 responses:

Reasons Cadets Give for Joining CAP
Flying or learning about aviation62.8%
Developing leadership skills47.9%
Learning about the military30.5%
Search and Rescue23.9%
Serving the community16.0%
Making new friends14.2%



Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMAre we shooting off rockets in blues?

Sure, why not?  There's nothing particularly dirty or strenuous with model rocketry that would require a utility uniform.

(http://www.mcchord.org/temp/boards/cs/rocketsinblues.jpg)


Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMClimbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues?

Sure... just need to exercise a little extra caution but it's not such an onerous task to preflight or fuel up an aircraft while wearing blues.  In this photo I'm preflighting and fueling a C-182 in blues and my only precaution was to tuck my tie into my shirt in a circa 1950's style.

(http://www.mcchord.org/temp/boards/cs/preflightandfuel.jpg)


Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA field uniform for Cadets is still a necessity.

I'd categorize them as a nice-to-have, but not a necessity.  While there is certainly recruitment value when it comes to utility uniforms (especially for cadets), they aren't the be-all and end-all of Civil Air Patrol.



I'm curious to hear from any of our "vintage" members who were cadets in the 50s and 60s.  Based on photos I've seen from that era, it looks like cadets back then did just about everything in their khakis.  Where khakis considered a utility uniform that could be used for dress, or was it a dress uniform that could be used for utility?
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 08:39:53 PM
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on August 27, 2020, 07:28:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 06:29:35 PMYou don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.

But how are you going to get the Disaster Relief Ribbon with silver 'V' device that way?!

Fair.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 08:41:09 PM
Quote from: Spam on August 27, 2020, 08:29:19 PMI had to step in when we had members "clearing rubble" with a freakin chainsaw while standing on a forklift with no straps and no PPE (OSHA, turn thy gaze aside from South Georgia...).

Heh - yeah.  Awesome pics!
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 08:47:48 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any,

A UAV operator has zero need of GT skills, nor should they be linked to, or deployed with, GTs. UDF at most.
2 guys with the UAV, that's all you need. They aren't going camping with the thing.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMClimbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues?

Most GA commercial pilots fly in a uniform akin to CAP blues and do it in a white shirt,
and these days we don't have too many people fueling their own planes.  It happens, but
not much in the areas the FSM intended people to live.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 27, 2020, 08:58:34 PM
Quote from: baronet68 on August 27, 2020, 08:32:11 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMIf we eliminate the ES mission for Cadets, we would say goodbye to 75% of my Cadets.

Your unit must be recruiting with an emphasis toward ES missions because your unit definitely doesn't match the national trend.

When completing online membership applications, cadet applicants are asked to select their top two choices from a list of six reasons to join CAP. 
Based on 47,253 responses:

Reasons Cadets Give for Joining CAP
Flying or learning about aviation62.8%
Developing leadership skills47.9%
Learning about the military30.5%
Search and Rescue23.9%
Serving the community16.0%
Making new friends14.2%

That's pretty on par with our squadron. We don't recruit ES much, and when we've taken the steps to implement it, it doesn't go far or get much involvement. We have far more involvement in Aerospace, and we're seeing more enrollment lately for STEM-related career paths. We've shifted a lot of our focus to STEM recently because of that.

Still, we have a very ES-oriented Group climate that emphasizes ES. It's just not something I see taking off with this body of individuals. It may shift over time, but I don't see it in the next year.


QuoteI'm curious to hear from any of our "vintage" members who were cadets in the 50s and 60s.  Based on photos I've seen from that era, it looks like cadets back then did just about everything in their khakis.  Where khakis considered a utility uniform that could be used for dress, or was it a dress uniform that could be used for utility?

Nearly everything we have to do in Cadet Programs could be done in a service uniform.

Nearly everything we want to do in Cadet Programs could be done in utilities.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 28, 2020, 12:54:30 PM
Ok I will admit I was wrong on the blues comment, as it appears many of you wear blues for a lot more activities than I've seen in the past.

Quote from: baronet68 on August 27, 2020, 08:32:11 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMIf we eliminate the ES mission for Cadets, we would say goodbye to 75% of my Cadets.

Your unit must be recruiting with an emphasis toward ES missions because your unit definitely doesn't match the national trend.

When completing online membership applications, cadet applicants are asked to select their top two choices from a list of six reasons to join CAP. 
Based on 47,253 responses:

Reasons Cadets Give for Joining CAP
Flying or learning about aviation62.8%
Developing leadership skills47.9%
Learning about the military30.5%
Search and Rescue23.9%
Serving the community16.0%
Making new friends14.2%
Not targeting ES specifically, but sometimes that's how it works out. First off, our Squadron has always had a culture where everyone is encouraged to participate in ES, most Cadets at least become GTM3 trainees, and most Seniors train for GTM3 and MS. We do classes during the regular weekly meeting so that everyone has a chance to learn about ES and knock out their F&P's, and then if they want to go further we run an all day Saturday training at least once a month where they can do the advanced tasks.

Many of our Cadets are home schooled, and CAP is the only extra curricular activity for many of them. When we moved into Phase I and were able to do limited ES training outdoors on the weekends, we immediately had more signups than we could allow with the 10 or less restrictions. We started doing ES training every other weekend and rotating Cadets so that everyone who wanted to participate could have a chance. Right now, almost every one of our active Cadets is in trainee status for GTM3, most only need to finish the FEMA courses and first aid to complete the qualification.

I have 7 Cadets in Great Start that graduate next Thursday. Last week during a training mission we had a really cool turn of events that resulted in us having to check a hangar that contained a B-17, B-25, C-47, a Huey and a Ford Tri-Motor in addition to several GA aircraft. After showing the pictures and telling the story, every one of the Great Start Cadets want to start GTM3 next month.

If you give everyone a little exposure to Ground Team, make it interesting and a little fun, they usually want to participate and for the past month or two it's been the only activity many of our Cadets have been able to take part in that didn't involve Zoom.

Luckily we are now in Phase II in MIWG and have O-flights scheduled for 8 Cadets tomorrow, although now it looks like mother nature will have other plans.

Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Spam on August 28, 2020, 03:44:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 08:47:48 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any,

A UAV operator has zero need of GT skills, nor should they be linked to, or deployed with, GTs. UDF at most.
2 guys with the UAV, that's all you need. They aren't going camping with the thing.


If you think a sUAS team will only operate its (short battery life) system within a hundred meters of pavement, great. Also if you think all SAR imaging objectives will be within flight/loiter range of said pavement, great.

However, a valid tactical scenario is where I've got 2 - 3 teams out working the ridge lines at the middle and outer beacon on an approach, looking at the last datum from NTAP, and an organic sUAS capability with the GT would save us a full hour or more of climbing vertically to go cover the back slopes. In such cases, fat old guys in polos and wing tips (points finger at self) would be a liability rather than an asset, and should be relegated with the UDFs to Training missions looking for orange tarps and bug hunts on airport property.

I base that scenario on an actual MDWG mission that we ran on Catoctin Mtn back in the 90s (FIND to the St. Marys Sqdn. team). Ceiling too low and terrain too high for manned flights, aircraft was found on the ridge line at middle marker after hours of foot searcher sweat. Polos and grays would have been shredded in the heavy brush.

V/r
Spam
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Capt Thompson on August 28, 2020, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: Spam on August 28, 2020, 03:44:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 08:47:48 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any,

A UAV operator has zero need of GT skills, nor should they be linked to, or deployed with, GTs. UDF at most.
2 guys with the UAV, that's all you need. They aren't going camping with the thing.


If you think a sUAS team will only operate its (short battery life) system within a hundred meters of pavement, great. Also if you think all SAR imaging objectives will be within flight/loiter range of said pavement, great.

However, a valid tactical scenario is where I've got 2 - 3 teams out working the ridge lines at the middle and outer beacon on an approach, looking at the last datum from NTAP, and an organic sUAS capability with the GT would save us a full hour or more of climbing vertically to go cover the back slopes. In such cases, fat old guys in polos and wing tips (points finger at self) would be a liability rather than an asset, and should be relegated with the UDFs to Training missions looking for orange tarps and bug hunts on airport property.

I base that scenario on an actual MDWG mission that we ran on Catoctin Mtn back in the 90s (FIND to the St. Marys Sqdn. team). Ceiling too low and terrain too high for manned flights, aircraft was found on the ridge line at middle marker after hours of foot searcher sweat. Polos and grays would have been shredded in the heavy brush.

V/r
Spam
This^^ A UAS team needs to be able to deploy within VLOS of the UAS while it's in the search area. If that happens to be on pavement, great. If that requires them to be 3 miles into the woods to deploy, they will need to be 3 miles into the woods to deploy. If I were the IC, I wouldn't send a 2 man UAS team deep into the woods without them having knowledge of Ground Team F&P's and being accompanied by a team.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Spam on August 28, 2020, 04:42:57 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 28, 2020, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: Spam on August 28, 2020, 03:44:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 08:47:48 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any,

A UAV operator has zero need of GT skills, nor should they be linked to, or deployed with, GTs. UDF at most.
2 guys with the UAV, that's all you need. They aren't going camping with the thing.


If you think a sUAS team will only operate its (short battery life) system within a hundred meters of pavement, great. Also if you think all SAR imaging objectives will be within flight/loiter range of said pavement, great.

However, a valid tactical scenario is where I've got 2 - 3 teams out working the ridge lines at the middle and outer beacon on an approach, looking at the last datum from NTAP, and an organic sUAS capability with the GT would save us a full hour or more of climbing vertically to go cover the back slopes. In such cases, fat old guys in polos and wing tips (points finger at self) would be a liability rather than an asset, and should be relegated with the UDFs to Training missions looking for orange tarps and bug hunts on airport property.

I base that scenario on an actual MDWG mission that we ran on Catoctin Mtn back in the 90s (FIND to the St. Marys Sqdn. team). Ceiling too low and terrain too high for manned flights, aircraft was found on the ridge line at middle marker after hours of foot searcher sweat. Polos and grays would have been shredded in the heavy brush.

V/r
Spam
This^^ A UAS team needs to be able to deploy within VLOS of the UAS while it's in the search area. If that happens to be on pavement, great. If that requires them to be 3 miles into the woods to deploy, they will need to be 3 miles into the woods to deploy. If I were the IC, I wouldn't send a 2 man UAS team deep into the woods without them having knowledge of Ground Team F&P's and being accompanied by a team.

Since I was IC that morning on the mission referenced, I made a related call. Two, really. One was LTC Ayres and I agreed that we would not release aircraft even on an electronic sortie, even if they were instrument current and highly experienced. Second was that I accepted the request from a, lets say highly mature set of officers from a western MD unit who looked at the GT tasking which I needed to staff, and requested a less strenuous sortie. I publicly thanked them for their ORM wisdom in not getting in over their heads. Those older gents that morning dressed for the worst case in BDUs, but were Professional Volunteers, and impressed me greatly with their honest humility in service of the mission (we used them as a split team, roving patrol and static visual scanning/smelling/listening post in the AO).

We need MORE people like that in CAP, who are in it for the customer lost out there on the mountain, not for the uniform (which is a tool) as a cosplay end unto itself. 
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Spam on August 28, 2020, 04:50:06 PM
So one other thought (thread drift, perhaps we need a sUAS TTP thread), CAP needs to write, test, and promulgate some NLOS UAS TTPs, and use them to guide future sUAS fleet acquisition.

In the scenario above, lugging a pelican case deep into (and UP into!) the AO buys me no time/effort savings if it can only look down on what I already see. The tactical capes that I need is NLOS Non Line of Sight target search and tagging over ridgelines and around spurs, etc. That means we need sUAS systems with onboard DTED/DGED, coordinate route planning, and lost link climb/return to launch site/return to lost signal pattern automation.

We now return you to your normally scheduled uniform/multiform thread.  :-[

V/r
Spam
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on August 28, 2020, 05:36:32 PM
The uniform used in the field needs to do two things:

Everything else can be added/attached. Backpacks, bags, pouches, all of those are add-ons.

I don't know why our field uniform for SAR isn't some bright neon color.

We need to stop with the "The Cadet Program wears this because it has the military feel" rhetoric. The Cadet Program is not a ground team, and a ground team is not the Cadet Program. These are totally separate things. Just because a cadet happens to be on a ground team doesn't intertwine the two. The Cadet Program is a JROTC-like youth leadership program with an aerospace focus. Everything else is a voluntary addition whether at the local level or on the individual seeking to do more. The Cadet Program uniform doesn't need to have any level of interface with whatever a ground team wears or whatever an aircrew wears. These are totally separate functional duty uniforms.

If you're on a non-combat, non-hostile SAR mission, camouflage is the last thing you should be in. You should be in something that identifies your visible person which protects you from the environment and climate in which you operate. This can be accomplished by either having a single-scheme uniform that can have outer garments placed over it with some form of reflective/easily observed colored article on the outside (such as a vest or helmet even), or you can have a common set of colored, visible clothing of comparable-appearance winter and summer wear (e.g., a bright pink long-sleeve shirt and bright pink heavy jacket).

This whole "running around the city/woods in camo" isn't necessary for a civilian, non-combatant, community/emergency response team. You don't need cammies to train ES. You don't need cammies to execute ES.

Running a JROTC is an entirely different operation. It can really be in camo or not. It doesn't matter from a training curriculum standpoint, but we know that many cadets join because of the military appearance of the program. That should be an absolutely separate topic.

From a functional service standpoint, in regard to running the so-called "paying mission" that Emergency Services, why are we continuing to talk about having all of these different colored uniforms and what you can or can't wear based on how hefty or how shaven you are? They have nothing to do with the mission. Put on a common set of clothing, and just do the job. If the rule is going to be "Well, the Air Force will never let the big guys wear ABUs," then drop the ABUs. This whole notion of "As the Air Force Auxiliary, we need to resemble the Air Force in appearance" is bogus. We're literally not wearing their uniform anymore; they changed what they wear. Nearly all of the branches have. It's time to move on from that mindset because the reality is that we don't need to look anything like the Air Force to execute Civil Air Patrol's operations.

I say this as someone who only owns and only wears ABUs and Blues (minus my CAP hoodie that I wear at PT and squadron moto t-shirt). If CAP, tomorrow said, "Senior members no longer wear fatigues, and everyone will wear corporate whites from now on," then I guess I need to go on a shopping spree. I'll take my time. I'll complain about the cost. But I'll get over it. I prefer to wear the common uniform that my cadets wear for the sake of camaraderie and using it as a visual training tool for the program by having the adult version of what they do.

If a person quits because they don't get to dress up in battle rattle anymore, well, I'm going to ask them: "Did you really need to? Is that really what you're worried about?"

This is all really a senior member problem. The Cadet Program has a uniform for cadets. I think some seniors really need to get over themselves in whining about what they are allowed to wear vs. what they want to wear. There's way too much leeway in this organization of having a military command structure, military uniforms, and military culture. Either designate a uniform or get rid of the uniform. Having five different options of "equivalency" is not a uniform; it's work apparel.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on August 28, 2020, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 28, 2020, 05:36:32 PMThis is all really a senior member problem. The Cadet Program has a uniform for cadets. I think some seniors really need to get over themselves in whining about what they are allowed to wear vs. what they want to wear. There's way too much leeway in this organization of having a military command structure, military uniforms, and military culture. Either designate a uniform or get rid of the uniform. Having five different options of "equivalency" is not a uniform; it's work apparel.

Where is the "CLAP" icon when you need it.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SLI_fox6 on November 12, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on August 10, 2020, 02:55:10 PMI started this thread from my phone and didn't realize the image of "my idea" was so small.

Here's the adult sized version...

(https://app.box.com/shared/static/jh03qijuvaff7ypuhowzj6ndv3aw3iyk.jpg)

Late to the party, but yeah. I like, and as has been already mentioned one utility uniform for all would be nice.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on November 12, 2021, 09:08:29 PM
I still like it. Martial enough without being an actual Military Uniform nor does it get readily confused for a police uniform either.

Imagine, one Field/Work uniform for all Senior and Cadet members, the uniformity of a formation would be shocking.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: etodd on November 13, 2021, 03:41:29 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 12, 2021, 09:08:29 PMImagine, one Field/Work uniform for all Senior and Cadet members, the uniformity of a formation would be shocking.


Yes, all of us in our polo.  ;)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: PHall on November 13, 2021, 04:20:14 AM
Quote from: etodd on November 13, 2021, 03:41:29 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 12, 2021, 09:08:29 PMImagine, one Field/Work uniform for all Senior and Cadet members, the uniformity of a formation would be shocking.


Yes, all of us in our polo.  ;)

But cadets are not allowed to wear the polo, so what about them?
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SarDragon on November 13, 2021, 04:33:53 AM
Does anybody even make OGs any more?

I direct your attention to this post (http://captalk.net/index.php?msg=412195). The concept has not changed. Wish all you want, but CAP doesn't use enough uniforms for some company to crank up production and sell them for a price most folks would consider reasonable.

I am on board with the fundamental idea, but the execution is impractical and costly.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: PHall on November 13, 2021, 06:33:31 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 13, 2021, 04:33:53 AMDoes anybody even make OGs any more?

I direct your attention to this post (http://captalk.net/index.php?msg=412195). The concept has not changed. Wish all you want, but CAP doesn't use enough uniforms for some company to crank up production and sell them for a price most folks would consider reasonable.

I am on board with the fundamental idea, but the execution is impractical and costly.

OG's???  (Besides Original Gangsters)

Yes, we can get, at somewhat great expense, OD green BDU's and OCP's. But that leaves us in the same boat we are now, we would probably be the only one's wearing them and would be at the mercy of whoever we get them from.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: N6RVT on November 14, 2021, 01:49:19 PM
Quote from: etodd on November 13, 2021, 03:41:29 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 12, 2021, 09:08:29 PMImagine, one Field/Work uniform for all Senior and Cadet members, the uniformity of a formation would be shocking.
Yes, all of us in our polo.  ;)

The closest thing to a unified appearance I ever saw was a group staff meeting with about 30 people in attendance.  Everyone was wearing a polo - and a sage green flight jacket.  Except myself as I did not feel particularly cold, so I did not have my blue one with me.....
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SarDragon on November 14, 2021, 08:04:30 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on November 14, 2021, 01:49:19 PM
Quote from: etodd on November 13, 2021, 03:41:29 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 12, 2021, 09:08:29 PMImagine, one Field/Work uniform for all Senior and Cadet members, the uniformity of a formation would be shocking.
Yes, all of us in our polo.  ;)

The closest thing to a unified appearance I ever saw was a group staff meeting with about 30 people in attendance.  Everyone was wearing a polo - and a sage green flight jacket.  Except myself as I did not feel particularly cold, so I did not have my blue one with me.....

And it was a unified disregard for the rules. Flight jackets are not authorized with the polo shirt.

8.2. USAF-style FDU (FDU)
8.2.7. Outer garments. The only authorized outer garment for this uniform is the green flight jacket (Flyers, Jacket MA-1, CWU-36/P or CWU-45/P) (Figure 8.3). Note: Flight Jackets will not be worn with Service, Working, or Utility uniforms. [This applies specifically to the green jacket.

5.3. CAP Corporate Working Uniform [Polo shirt]
5.3.9. Outer Garments. Appropriate civilian outer garments are authorized as well as the black leather jacket, light blue windbreaker, blue flight jacket, and the black fleece.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: PHall on November 14, 2021, 08:40:15 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 14, 2021, 08:04:30 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on November 14, 2021, 01:49:19 PM
Quote from: etodd on November 13, 2021, 03:41:29 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 12, 2021, 09:08:29 PMImagine, one Field/Work uniform for all Senior and Cadet members, the uniformity of a formation would be shocking.
Yes, all of us in our polo.  ;)

The closest thing to a unified appearance I ever saw was a group staff meeting with about 30 people in attendance.  Everyone was wearing a polo - and a sage green flight jacket.  Except myself as I did not feel particularly cold, so I did not have my blue one with me.....

And it was a unified disregard for the rules. Flight jackets are not authorized with the polo shirt.

8.2. USAF-style FDU (FDU)
8.2.7. Outer garments. The only authorized outer garment for this uniform is the green flight jacket (Flyers, Jacket MA-1, CWU-36/P or CWU-45/P) (Figure 8.3). Note: Flight Jackets will not be worn with Service, Working, or Utility uniforms. [This applies specifically to the green jacket.

5.3. CAP Corporate Working Uniform [Polo shirt]
5.3.9. Outer Garments. Appropriate civilian outer garments are authorized as well as the black leather jacket, light blue windbreaker, blue flight jacket, and the black fleece.


Dave, I know who these people probably are, I'm not surprised at all. They've long had the "the rules don't apply to us" attitude. aka the Van Nuys Mafia. ::)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: SarDragon on November 14, 2021, 10:45:59 PM
Oh, it's far more widespread. Groups 7 and 8 are similarly at fault, and possibly Group 3.


I have been guilty of wearing my olde L-2B with my polo shirt. Its legality is questionable, since it hasn't been a real Air force uniform item since the '70s, so is it military, or civilian? Is the MA-1 still a valid AF item, or is it now "civilian" clothing, too?
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: PHall on November 15, 2021, 12:20:16 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 14, 2021, 10:45:59 PMOh, it's far more widespread. Groups 7 and 8 are similarly at fault, and possibly Group 3.


I have been guilty of wearing my olde L-2B with my polo shirt. Its legality is questionable, since it hasn't been a real Air force uniform item since the '70s, so is it military, or civilian? Is the MA-1 still a valid AF item, or is it now "civilian" clothing, too?

If you don't have any CAP patches on it your MA-1 is civilian clothing since it hasn't been a military uniform item for several decades. And not having any CAP patches on it makes it real hard for some to claim it's a CAP uniform item too.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: Shuman 14 on November 15, 2021, 07:50:03 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 13, 2021, 04:33:53 AMDoes anybody even make OGs any more?

I direct your attention to this post (http://captalk.net/index.php?msg=412195). The concept has not changed. Wish all you want, but CAP doesn't use enough uniforms for some company to crank up production and sell them for a price most folks would consider reasonable.

I am on board with the fundamental idea, but the execution is impractical and costly.

I use the example of the Rhode Island State Police, an organization much smaller than CAP and wears a very unique traditional uniform, not worn by any other Department I'm aware of nationwide... and yet someone produces their uniform and all the stuff (Tan Campaign hat, cordovan Sam Brown belts and riding boots) that goes with it.

As to the uniform in question, nationwide there are sheriff's departments and correctional agencies and some tactical teams using that very same uniform (or a close variation thereof). It would not be unreasonably hard to get a regular supplier to produce them in quantities and sizes (i.e. small cadets) that would make this our Corporate Field Uniform authorized for Seniors and Cadets.

I'd also like to point out that BDU style Blue and/or Navy Blue in a traditional BDU style are actually becoming hard to find. There's plenty of Blue/Navy Blue "tactical uniforms" to choose from but they all seem to have different features from the old four pocket, waist tabbed, buttoned cuff BDU uniform.

They all seem to have epaulets, no lower pockets (for tucking into trousers) and arm pockets with zippers.

Now we could go the way of "grey trousers" and any cut or shade of "blue BDU-ish" uniform goes, or we politely approach the USAF and request permission for everyone (Cadets, Seniors and Seniors with grooming and/or weight issues) to wear OCPs as a field/work uniform.

I'm cool either way, but something has to be done one way or the other. Just saying.
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: N6RVT on November 16, 2021, 12:27:51 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 15, 2021, 07:50:03 PMI'd also like to point out that BDU style Blue and/or Navy Blue in a traditional BDU style are actually becoming hard to find. There's plenty of Blue/Navy Blue "tactical uniforms" to choose from but they all seem to have different features from the old four pocket, waist tabbed, buttoned cuff BDU uniform.
They all seem to have epaulets, no lower pockets (for tucking into trousers) and arm pockets with zippers.
Biggest problem I have found is that most of them are two pocket models.  There is room for variation in other components, but the four pocket specification is what prevents most of these from being usable.  For that matter the old style USCG "Tucked ODU" could have been used as a CAP uniform (the untucked one had embroidery on it)

[fixed quotes - ed]
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: N6RVT on November 16, 2021, 12:29:37 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 14, 2021, 08:04:30 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on November 14, 2021, 01:49:19 PM
Quote from: etodd on November 13, 2021, 03:41:29 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 12, 2021, 09:08:29 PMImagine, one Field/Work uniform for all Senior and Cadet members, the uniformity of a formation would be shocking.
Yes, all of us in our polo.  ;)

The closest thing to a unified appearance I ever saw was a group staff meeting with about 30 people in attendance.  Everyone was wearing a polo - and a sage green flight jacket.  Except myself as I did not feel particularly cold, so I did not have my blue one with me.....

And it was a unified disregard for the rules. Flight jackets are not authorized with the polo shirt.

8.2. USAF-style FDU (FDU)
8.2.7. Outer garments. The only authorized outer garment for this uniform is the green flight jacket (Flyers, Jacket MA-1, CWU-36/P or CWU-45/P) (Figure 8.3). Note: Flight Jackets will not be worn with Service, Working, or Utility uniforms. [This applies specifically to the green jacket.

5.3. CAP Corporate Working Uniform [Polo shirt]
5.3.9. Outer Garments. Appropriate civilian outer garments are authorized as well as the black leather jacket, light blue windbreaker, blue flight jacket, and the black fleece.

Indeed sir, that was actually my point.  (and this used to include the blue field jacket and the dark blue windbreaker that never existed)
Title: Re: Remember that one uniform idea?
Post by: N6RVT on November 16, 2021, 12:32:08 AM
We won't ever have a unified appearance, I just accepted that decades ago.