Cadet with Alcohol Misdemeanor

[Eclipse]

Point being....CAP.....TRIES.

I wish I could agree wholeheartedly, but I can't.  Other then the rhetoric about mentorship,
there is little culture of it, nor any formal development program or plan, in most cases
CCs are selected based as much on willingness and presence as any innate ability, and in
far too many cases, they are selected because there is no one else who will take the job.

You can't develop talent you don't have, and with a churn rate like CAP's, those who stick around
are too busy to mentor or develop, and the new guys aren't sticking around to be developed.

CAP today, at all levels, is mostly about station keeping, it's one of the core problems in CAP.

[MacGruff]

It's funny how some of this stuff works in CAP. Let me relate the story of Squadron A. This actually happened (and is happening) within the past year.

Squadron A was commanded for a very long time by the same commander. During 2014, it was decided that Old Commander had served long enough and it was time for some new blood. Consequently a search for the new commander was initiated. Two current squadron members were interested in the post: One was B who had just been promoted to the grade of Captain. Who has a son in the program, but who has never been in any position of management or authority in any of his previous experience, including military or work outside of CAP. He was close friends with Old Commander. The second one was Major C who was an officer in the military and professionally works as a manager in a very large organization. Looking at the two from the outside, there was no question that Major C was much more highly qualified and ready for the job than Captain B.

The ultimate decision made by Old Commander was to have Captain B take on the role.

Old Commander was not ready to release the reigns of command and even after the Change of Command ceremony kept coming back to the squadron meetings in uniform and provided "consulting" to New Commander. Eventually, Old Commander was told to back off and let New Commander establish themselves, and Old Commander grudgingly did (although they still show up at squadron meetings although no longer part of the squadron).

What is interesting about this scenario is that New Commander has realized very quickly that they are not really ready for the role they took on and has reached out to Major C and other Senior Members with management experience and asked for help. New Commander is being mentored by some of them outside of CAP and is quickly improving in his new role.

To avoid this kind of scenario in the future, New Commander has mandated mentoring for all new Senior Members starting from their orientation and going on in their Specialty Tracks and Qualifications. That squadron is now grooming future leaders in a very hands-on fashion and not just letting it "happen".

So, maybe there is hope?

[JeffDG]

It's funny how some of this stuff works in CAP. Let me relate the story of Squadron A. This actually happened (and is happening) within the past year.

Squadron A was commanded for a very long time by the same commander. During 2014, it was decided that Old Commander had served long enough and it was time for some new blood. Consequently a search for the new commander was initiated. Two current squadron members were interested in the post: One was B who had just been promoted to the grade of Captain. Who has a son in the program, but who has never been in any position of management or authority in any of his previous experience, including military or work outside of CAP. He was close friends with Old Commander. The second one was Major C who was an officer in the military and professionally works as a manager in a very large organization. Looking at the two from the outside, there was no question that Major C was much more highly qualified and ready for the job than Captain B.

The ultimate decision made by Old Commander was to have Captain B take on the role.

Old Commander was not ready to release the reigns of command and even after the Change of Command ceremony kept coming back to the squadron meetings in uniform and provided "consulting" to New Commander. Eventually, Old Commander was told to back off and let New Commander establish themselves, and Old Commander grudgingly did (although they still show up at squadron meetings although no longer part of the squadron).

What is interesting about this scenario is that New Commander has realized very quickly that they are not really ready for the role they took on and has reached out to Major C and other Senior Members with management experience and asked for help. New Commander is being mentored by some of them outside of CAP and is quickly improving in his new role.

To avoid this kind of scenario in the future, New Commander has mandated mentoring for all new Senior Members starting from their orientation and going on in their Specialty Tracks and Qualifications. That squadron is now grooming future leaders in a very hands-on fashion and not just letting it "happen".

So, maybe there is hope?

There's a major fault right there.

It is the role of higher echelons to appoint commanders, not the role of the current commander to appoint their successor.  Can they use whatever influence they have to recommend?  Sure.  But the decision is not theirs to make.

[MacGruff]

I assume Group/Wing were involved, but in this case, the major influencer was Old Commander.

[Eclipse]

I assume Group/Wing were involved, but in this case, the major influencer was Old Commander.

Big mistake, and an abdication by the next echelon.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I assume Group/Wing were involved, but in this case, the major influencer was Old Commander.

Big mistake, and an abdication by the next echelon.

Yea, the flags turned red when I heard that the old CC "picked" his successor.


Certainly commanders get to pick a person, and recommend them to the board, but not actually make it happen, unless higher HQ is disinterested.

[Alaric]

Most of the country doesn't agree with moral values? 

Everyone agrees with "Moral Values", mostly because here's lots to choose from!

And for the record, in most cultures, drinking alcohol has nothing at all to do with morality.  Even then, simply because something is illegal does not, by any stretch, make it immoral--in exactly the same sense that just because something is legal, that it is, thus, moral. 

BTW, I believe a "federal" (debate that if you must, but for all intents and purposes it is) legal drinking age of 21 is absolutely stupid and wrong.  Impaired driving aside (which should also remain solely a State issue), enacting a law prohibiting an 18-year-old from drinking alcohol within the confines of the very country for which he can be forcibly compelled to give his life defending, is the true immorality.

If a parent is okay with allowing his 15-y/o to have a glass of wine or beer with her dinner (particularly within the confines of a private residence!), it's absolutely none of the nanny-state government's [darn] business.

That's true in my state, and I think that's the way it should be.  If I am okay with my <21 year old to have a glass of wine on the Sabbath, or at Passover, I should be able to.  If CAP feels that such behavior is contrary to their membership ideals, then by all means CAP should put that in the rules and kick those people out.  Why we are still debating it, when the matter with the cadet has obviously been settled to the satisfaction of the law, and his local unit is what I dont understand

[Nuke52]

That's true in my state, and I think that's the way it should be.  If I am okay with my <21 year old to have a glass of wine on the Sabbath, or at Passover, I should be able to.  If CAP feels that such behavior is contrary to their membership ideals, then by all means CAP should put that in the rules and kick those people out. 

Why we are still debating it, when the matter with the cadet has obviously been settled to the satisfaction of the law, and his local unit is what I dont understand

Because this is CAP Talk--it's what we do!  (Well, that and turn everything into a uniform thread...). And admit it:  if you had anything better to do right now, you'd be doing it instead of posting here!   

[stitchmom]

This is an old thread but keep in mind in some areas the powers that be are very aggressive as far as charging teens. Juvenile justice is big business here and there is a lot of nepotism as far as who gets contracts and jobs.  I see teens with so many (ridiculous IMO) charges while on the other hand they seem to be hesitant to charge adults unless they already have a record.  I'm not sympathetic to thugs or kids who are really up to no good like shoplifting or drugs.  Entering a kid into the system because of a pocket knife (after camping that weekend) at school or being out after curfew seems too far reaching. Then they tack on more charges for things like using profanity when they are confronted.

[Flying Pig]

I agree 100%  There are A LOT of services battling for funds.  There are times I feel like juveniles are pushed in simply for numbers.   Years ago I had a girl I was dealing with as a cop who had some behavioral issues.  Im sure it had nothing to do with mom being single living in a run down HUD complex with no dad....  But I swear, juvenile probation messed this kid up.  There was absolutely ZERO tolerance for any mistakes that it really set her up for failure to the point where even I thought to myself "I would just quite and go to juvi and do my time."  Social workers afraid to make any decision except for "Get in the car... back to Juvi."    Ive seen a few kids make legit mistakes who actually had goals in life.  And after the punishment really lost all hope at ever climbing out of the hole.

[FlyNavy]

Give the kid a chance. I know of several individuals in the past who were rebels and mischievous as teens, who ended up being real leaders.

[Shieldel]

I successfully fought a 2b myself. The losing unit tried to slap me with the form for insubordination and lying (CAP Core Values and Reg 1-1, they tried throwing the ethics reg in there too) I had evidence that said I wasn't lying, I had evidence that supported I told the truth, they didn't have ANY whatsoever. While the discussion got heated, in the end, my Wing King got involved (he would have anyways, approving authority as it was my local squadron who tried to pull this), because I had every single commander in my area and MOST wing staff vouching for me as they've seen my work ethic and my professionalism, and how I perform at SAREXes and the like. He decided it was in the best interests of the wing and program to keep me in. As NIN mentioned in page one however, not only was the commander ordered to let the transfer go (I tried transferring out of Unit A which was what started this whole situation in the first place, they accused me of running away from a problem, it was an open and shut thing in reality) but I took a 2 grade demotion at the time (which was then an C/A1C, I was a SSgt at the time I was suspended due to the 2B per regulations).

Termination should always be a last resort. When everything else has been exhausted. When the counseling and such doesn't work, THEN you should try 2B'ing. and I say "try 2B'ing" only for the mere fact that the cadet has the RIGHT to appeal, just like I did. But it's not easy fighting an appeal, I don't think most will do it. I only did it because I knew I could fight it, I had evidence and supporting documents and I knew Unit A was in the wrong.

[Eaker Guy]

I successfully fought a 2b myself. The losing unit tried to slap me with the form for insubordination and lying (CAP Core Values and Reg 1-1, they tried throwing the ethics reg in there too) I had evidence that said I wasn't lying, I had evidence that supported I told the truth, they didn't have ANY whatsoever. While the discussion got heated, in the end, my Wing King got involved (he would have anyways, approving authority as it was my local squadron who tried to pull this), because I had every single commander in my area and MOST wing staff vouching for me as they've seen my work ethic and my professionalism, and how I perform at SAREXes and the like. He decided it was in the best interests of the wing and program to keep me in. As NIN mentioned in page one however, not only was the commander ordered to let the transfer go (I tried transferring out of Unit A which was what started this whole situation in the first place, they accused me of running away from a problem, it was an open and shut thing in reality) but I took a 2 grade demotion at the time (which was then an C/A1C, I was a SSgt at the time I was suspended due to the 2B per regulations).

Termination should always be a last resort. When everything else has been exhausted. When the counseling and such doesn't work, THEN you should try 2B'ing. and I say "try 2B'ing" only for the mere fact that the cadet has the RIGHT to appeal, just like I did. But it's not easy fighting an appeal, I don't think most will do it. I only did it because I knew I could fight it, I had evidence and supporting documents and I knew Unit A was in the wrong.

I have been watching this thread from a distance for quite some time now, but this is the first time I've posted on it.

For the alcohol misdemeanor, I am hesitant to 2b the guy without looking back. However, from a cadet 's perspective, I'm not sure I would want him around. I feel that if I let him go without a 2b, it would set a bad example to the other cadets. In this instance, I think that demotion with set counseling would be ok, or at least in the ballpark.

I think that Shieldel right to an extent. 2b is a last resort. However, in his instance, he had evidence to support his cause.

It boils down to how much promise this particular cadet has, and what his attitude is. If he has potential and has a positive attitude, I think punishment to put him on the right track again would be fine. If the cadet had a record of being disruptive, has a negative attitude, and had not responded well to counseling before, a 2b would be fine IMHO. Not much of a defense can be put up to face an alcohol misdemeanor. I think a 2b would be upheld in this case.

Any thoughts about my post would be great. Always looking to learn.

EDIT: Phrasing

[JeffDG]

Termination should always be a last resort. When everything else has been exhausted. When the counseling and such doesn't work, THEN you should try 2B'ing. and I say "try 2B'ing" only for the mere fact that the cadet has the RIGHT to appeal, just like I did. But it's not easy fighting an appeal, I don't think most will do it. I only did it because I knew I could fight it, I had evidence and supporting documents and I knew Unit A was in the wrong.

Concur with a 2B as the absolute last resord.

Non-concur on "try 2Bing".  If your reasoning for termination is not rock-solid, you shouldn't "try" it.  Your example is why...you were suspended pending appeal, and I'll bet you spent a metric-ton of time messing with your appeal that you could have poured into the program, for a shaky case.

If it gets to the point of a 2B, the commander should have a stack of documentation justifying the action a foot thick, and an appeal will be a formality because of it.

The fact that a commander can 2B without that level of documentation is why there needs to remain a robust appeals process.

[JeffDG]

Cadet Kiss,

First, I would say that an "automatic" 2B for an alcohol misdemeanor without additional factors at play would be something that I would advise a cadet to appeal, and such an appeal should be successful, and here's why:

The termination regulations, specifically the ones about members ineligible to be senior members, calls out felony convictions.  By, presumably, purposefully excluding misdemeanors from the list of infractions that are automatic denials of membership, CAP HQ has, implicitly, stated that a misdemeanor on its own is insufficient grounds to exclude someone.  As such, were a commander to 2B a cadet for solely that reason, with no other justification, it would be a pretty straightforward argument that the commander exceeded his authority and the directives of higher headquarters.

That said, misdemeanor + an incident of insubordination, or any other disciplinary matter, change the equation entirely.

[Shieldel]

I would also like to add for the record (just for this conversation, as clarification) I did not drink, I was accused of lying and insubordination and such as mentioned in my reply

Agreed with C/Kiss

I was squeaky clean until this incident (my 2B) therefore because people knew my performance and they knew I busted my butt, I was allowed to stay in the program.

JeffDG sir,
On your non-concur: yes the seniors who 2B'ed me had a "shaky" case, with the evidence I had the case was thrown out. I had supporting documents, they just had their reports with nothing to support them with.

If it gets to a 2B: I myself concur with that statement.

Level of documentation: I concur there as well.

On your reply to C/Kiss:
Agreed wholeheartedly with insufficient grounds to exclude someone (very nice point to make might I add) and agree with the authority exceeded statement as well

1000% +1 on your very last statement regarding the equation being changed.

As a side note this is how I was taught to speak while in speech and debate: I respond through organized bullets

[Eaker Guy]

To JeffDG: Hmmmm. I see your point. Haven't really gone over to many of the termination regs. Just going with my gut, which isn't always the best thing to do. An alcohol misdemeanor would be grounds for demotion, would it not?

[abdsp51]

The use of alcohol violates the zero tolerance policy for cadets. And I can't get into the ternination reg but there are instances where membership can be terminated and there is no appeal.

[Eaker Guy]

The use of alcohol violates the zero tolerance policy for cadets. And I can't get into the ternination reg but there are instances where membership can be terminated and there is no appeal.

Just out if curiosity, where could I find this policy? I was holding a class on leadership when the issue of smoking came up. I asked "what would your opinion be of a leader who smoked or did drugs?" One cadet cleverly answered "we'll, isn't that a personal choice?" It caught me off guard, as I didn't have a specific regs to back it up. I want to clarify this, for my personal education and for the rest of the cadets.

Thanks, and don't let me distract anyone from hr rest of this thread.

[abdsp51]

Check 52-16.  I'm about 90% sure there is a blurb in there about smoking, drugs and alcohol.